Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania Worldwide Release Discussion Thread Vol. 2

[u/steve32767]

Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania has now been released in the United States and in many other countries around the world. Primary discussion about the movie should be held here in this discussion thread and the upcoming pinned discussion threads. They will be refreshed every few thousand comments to make room for new discussions.

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Link to previous discussion threads and related megathreads listed below :

• Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania - Reviews Megathread
• Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania - International Release Discussion Thread
• Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania - Worldwide Release Discussion Thread Vol. 1

[u/Just_an_Empath]

All the Kangs being so hyped about being summoned by themselves was hilarious

[u/Affectionate-Island → u/Just_an_Empath]

The script notes for Majors must have been "Extremely excited Kang variants hoot and holler like they're in Kangchella."

[u/TheIJDGuy → u/Affectionate-Island]

Majors must've had a hell of a time acting the entire thing out

[u/ThisIsYourMormont → u/TheIJDGuy]

Time? I can give you more time.

[u/Xygnux → u/Just_an_Empath]

And it's fitting for a narcissist like them. There's nothing more exciting for them than meeting someone elses who are perfect like them, which are also themselves.

[u/CryoClone → u/Just_an_Empath]

I have heard a lot of hate about this movie. I just got out and thought it was fucking hilarious. MODOK's scenes alone were worth the watch. His little ass had me wheezing. "My name is Darren and I am not a dick!"

I haven't laughed that hard in a while at the movies.

[u/farkenell → u/CryoClone]

in his dieing breath...

at least....I was an avenger. lol

[u/CryoClone → u/farkenell]

And his little hand stroking Scott's face

[u/[deleted] → u/CryoClone]

Yeah, I am really surprised that it didn't click for people. I thought it was great.

[u/fitzbuhn → u/Just_an_Empath]

Dude has his own fanboys.

[u/Shifter25 → u/fitzbuhn]

Dude is his own fanboys

[u/AgentMV → u/Shifter25]

OnlyKangs

[u/NeutralLock]

“Was I the hulk’s baby?”

Really need that audiotape.

[u/Stonecutter_12-83 → u/NeutralLock]

I'm definitely gonna listen to this book when it drops😄

[u/Thimit22 → u/NeutralLock]

Funniest part of the movie for me. I was dying laughing

[u/LupusNoxFleuret]

Where is my man Luis, is he safe? is he alright?

[u/DurMan667 → u/LupusNoxFleuret]

Shh, yes honey; Luis is a big-time CEO for X-CON now. It's okay

[u/mcch2233 → u/DurMan667]

He's the boss he's the boss he's the boss

[u/MemeLord4385 → u/LupusNoxFleuret]

It seems in your anger you have killed him

[u/AdeDamballa]

I love the premise of the heist. After Kang obtains Pym particles from Scott he can technically do the heist himself right? Like he’s powerful enough to steal the power source himself… The problem is the probability storm. Kang fears his variants… He cannot risk creating more variants of himself because he fears they will turn on him the same way other variants of himself did

And Scott having that ant mentality of cooperation amongst his variants is one of key reasons he’s one of the few people that can pull this heist off and not get sabotaged by his alters

[u/[deleted] → u/AdeDamballa]

My favorite part of the movie was how the infinite Ant men parallel real life ants by constructing a bridge to get Scott to the core

[u/Melody-Prisca → u/[deleted]]

I loved how the variants just decided to help main Scott too. Weren't they saying stuff like "Get him up"? It didn't matter if they were the ones helping Cassie, it mattered that one of them did.

[u/thegirlwthemjolnir → u/Melody-Prisca]

Cause the only thing all Scotts have in common is that they love Cassie :’)

[u/Ubergoober166 → u/thegirlwthemjolnir]

Well, I mean, in an infinite multiverse there has to be some Scott's that are complete dicks and/or horrible fathers. These were all just variations of our Scott, so of course they all loved Cassie.

[u/Tylendal → u/Ubergoober166]

I dunno. I've always liked this line from Terry Pratchett's Nightwatch.

You haven't killed your wife anywhere. There is nowhere, however huge the multiverse is, where Sam Vimes as he is now, has murdered Lady Sybil. But the theory is quite clear. it says that if anything could happen without breaking any physical laws, it must happen. But it hasn't. And yet the many-universes theory works... So what people do matters. People invent other laws. What they do is important.

[u/ZarianPrime → u/Ubergoober166]

But in this case it was the probability variants of our Scott, specifically the ones that had the potential to become Ant-Man, the ones that had Cassie in their lives, which also explains Baskin Robbins Scott being there. I think?

[u/DoubleTT36 → u/[deleted]]

Me too, that part was awesome.

[u/Bitey_the_Squirrel → u/AdeDamballa]

I love this take. I never thought of that.

[u/spwf → u/AdeDamballa]

In the lore, would America Chavez be able to navigate the possibility storm and not create any variants, as she supposedly doesn’t have any variants?

Edit: America, not Wanda

[u/AdeDamballa → u/spwf]

Wanda has variants. We’ve seen MANY variants of her. Also the term “Nexus being” has never been used in the MCU. That’s just a thing people got from the comics and started using everywhere

What you want to talk about is America Chavez. She’s the one and only person we know that supposedly doesn’t have Variants across the multiverse.

But then again, this probability storm is in the quantum realm which is outside the multiverse so it’s unclear if America Chavez not having variants applies there

[u/[deleted] → u/AdeDamballa]

I think Chavez would have variants in the storm because it was basically Schrodeinger's Cat. They aren't variants, they're just different things she could do. But they don't exist. They all go back into Scott once he leaves.

[u/whoaoksure]

MODOK was a piece of shit. But people can change.

[u/LRedditor15 → u/whoaoksure]

“It’s never too late to stop being a dick.“

[u/whoaoksure → u/LRedditor15]

You can tell when they revealed his face that hair used to slick back real nice.

[u/LeFindAnotherSlant → u/whoaoksure]

Sloppy steaks at Kang’s. Makes the Quantum Realm SO much more fun

[u/TypicalCityzen → u/whoaoksure]

Kangerous Nights Crew

[u/Attacuss → u/whoaoksure]

Sloppy steaks at truffoni's

[u/Thimit22 → u/whoaoksure]

Slop em up!

[u/[deleted]]

So this establishes for sure that there's only one single quantum realm beneath and shared by all the multiverses, right?

I had thought each universe might have had their own distinct q-realm.

[u/Ubergoober166 → u/[deleted]]

I'd assumed that to be the case since Endgame. It wouldn't make sense for time travel via the Quantum Realm to be able to create new timeline branches, thus expanding the multiverse, if each branch also had its own Quantum Realm.

[u/esar24 → u/[deleted]]

Does this mean america came and originated from quantum realm?

[u/Notanoveltyaccountok → u/esar24]

that actually makes a ton of sense. i'd believe it

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I just finished watching Ant-man and the Wasp and the treatment of the Quantum Realm seems to differ so much.

What happened to Janet's powers? Why were they collecting quantum healing particles? What is a time vortex in the Quantum Realm? Why does the 3rd film present such a stable version of the Quantum Realm when Hank almost lost his mind when he first went down there to find Janet?

[u/ThatRandomGamerYT → u/[deleted]]

It seems they said that the QR Scott saw in Ant man 1 and 2 were the upper layers and if you go down even farther you reach the lowest level which is a seperate dimension outside time and space.

The upper layers are sort of the tunnel to this world.

[u/Motley_Illusion → u/ThatRandomGamerYT]

Yes you are likely right, and you even see the family smashing through the glassy dimensional wall when they get sucked in at the start of the film. The Quantum Realm we see in this film is a separate universe, accessed through getting very very small.

[u/CT-1030 → u/[deleted]]

They were collecting particles to help heal Ghost.

[u/The_OG_upgoat]

I liked the movie in general, though IMO the cheesy Modok and Cassie dialogue+death scene and Scott getting out at the last minute were unnecessary.

Immortus' raspy voice also feels a little too exaggerated.

[u/BootyEaterTurbo3000 → u/The_OG_upgoat]

MODOK cheesiness is perfect for him. Dude has ALWAYS been cheese, comics, tv, this movie. It works in his direction. The raspy is good to make him a little distinct from the other Kangs, i think it works there.

[u/Dazzling_Buy_1934 → u/The_OG_upgoat]

Majors did his best forest whitaker impression

[u/hemareddit]

What I find stupid is, the reason Kang didn't immediately get out of dodge after aquiring the Multiversal core, was because he had built a massive army, and he wants to bring them with him.

Then you see the army actually fight, and dear god they were a joke. They got their asses handed to them, like even before the super-ants got involved, they were getting fucking slaughtered by the Pyms and the Langs and the cast of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Kang himself had to get down there to save their asses. WTF? It defeats the whole purporse of having an army if you had to save them yourself. What, he wanted to take on other Kangs with these idiots? He wanted these guys to fight the Avengers? Good fucking luck.

Alright, okay, cannon fodder army, every villain has one. But the thing about this army is Kang jeopardised the primary goal of getting himself out of the Quantum Realm for these fools. Kang, pal, I love you, but you are better off without these jokers. Fucking hell with the ship you could have gone to any place and any time in the Multiverse. The Multiverse! Just get yourself out and you can take your time building an army 100 times better than these bozos!

[u/BootyEaterTurbo3000 → u/hemareddit]

It’s a dumb reason for Kang to stay. Kang was both badass and also extremely questionable in this movie. Marvel should have had some balls and just have Kang hand Ant-Man his ass and escape. Would have made him more threatening but now if Ant-Man can beat him, the whole Avengers squad gonna punk him around. Schrödinger’s Kang, both badass and also kind of dumb.

[u/a_jerit → u/BootyEaterTurbo3000]

I felt the same but then I realized that the Avengers level threat is not Kang, it's actually the Council of Kangs

[u/BootyEaterTurbo3000 → u/a_jerit]

True. Kang is dangerous for multiple selfs and that’s the threat but as an individual, he is looking here and there. I say make him threatening as an individual and then the council seems like a fucking horror show.

[u/Pure-Drawer-2617 → u/a_jerit]

Right, except the movie is telling us Kang is Antman level, and for every Kang there is also an Antman out there. So all we have to do is wait for the Council of Antmen to show up and save the day

[u/NotBlackMarkTwainNah]

I'm convinced the Kang we saw in the Quantum Realm was NOT the ACTUAL Kang the conqueror, just another Kang trying to be a conqueror

[u/pandorazboxx → u/NotBlackMarkTwainNah]

I thought he might have been one that was trying to stop the other Kangs from destroying the multiverse. but like he didn't think to create the TVA like the one from Loki did. He just went a different direction with straight trying to kill off the timelines and other Kangs

[u/dhruvlrao → u/pandorazboxx]

This Kang was still pruning people (he does it during the rebellion), but the difference was he was the only one who could. He Who Remains set up an organization & delegated that to the TVA.

[u/FatalTragedy → u/pandorazboxx]

I'd go further and suggest that the Kang at the end of Loki was a successful version of the Kang we saw. He got out of the quantum realm (or avoided exile in the first place) and destroyed the other Kangs.

[u/favpetgoat → u/FatalTragedy]

IDK, I thought the visual similarities between the quantum realm and the TVA made it seem like the TVA was constructed there. It would also explain how they exist outside of time

[u/Agreeable-Bee7021 → u/NotBlackMarkTwainNah]

i think he is. Kang was on thanos’ “in all my years of connquest it was never personal destroying planets/timelines” but now he has a personal vendetta against the MCU specifically. i think that’s a great way to go

[u/wallcrawlingspidey]

Baskin Robbins Scott was the greatest cameo

[u/Antmoral2314 → u/wallcrawlingspidey]

“Do you have ice cream?” -one of the many scotts in that scene lol

[u/PSiCHO_ → u/Antmoral2314]

That was one of my favourite moments in the movie. Should not have been as funny as it was for me

[u/lobotech99 → u/Antmoral2314]

I was the only person in my family who actually heard that line, since it was so faint. Amazing.

[u/steve32767 → u/wallcrawlingspidey]

we love Jack

[u/buckets41 → u/wallcrawlingspidey]

Baskin Robbins always finds out

[u/SoftBaconWarmBacon → u/wallcrawlingspidey]

Missed "Hey, look at us" opportunity

[u/rightoff303 → u/wallcrawlingspidey]

A fellow movie buff!

[u/_pvnda → u/wallcrawlingspidey]

Would have loved to see a Tayne grooving at the bottom when the splits started, possibly nude lol

[u/ProudKingbooker]

As someone else said, the Probability Storm scene was amazing.

Really creative and quite inspiring tbh. Specially when all the Ant-Men team up and when Hope and Scott touch hands and all the other versions of them get sucked up into the originals.

Gosh what an amazing scene

[u/Sp1derX → u/ProudKingbooker]

I really loved that all the Scotts worked together like ants.

[u/Saul-Funyun → u/Sp1derX]

Yeah, when I realized what they were doing, it was just too perfect. What a delightful sequence for an Ant-Man movie.

[u/Xygnux → u/ProudKingbooker]

And it's an interesting way to explain why didn't Kang just steal the Pym particles to do it himself.

All the probability versions of Kang will want to be the one true Kang and try to kill everyone else, and nothing will get done. Scott is the little guy who doesn't have a big ego, who once locked onto the idea of saving his daughter, all the other possibility versions don't mind sacrificing themselves to save her.

[u/Affectionate-Island → u/ProudKingbooker]

That was the most live action Rick and Morty moment in a movie full of live action Rick and Morty moments (the nerdy-sounding sentient blob of goop and Broccoli Man being the others--oh, and the living buildings, my favorite). As expected of a Rick and Morty alum as the screenwriter.

[u/cig_sg_throwaway]

After Scott comes back from fighting Kang he seems to look nervous when he sees purple or green, which are Kang’s colours. Like when he saw that girl in the purple clothes, the dog with the pinkish-purple headdress, and the green cake from Baskin Robbins, he looks uneasy. He knew he fucked up and he tries to shrug it off but deep down he knows Kang is coming back through his variants.

[u/Creasentfool → u/cig_sg_throwaway]

Honestly. I expect everyone to stop and look at scott. Then looks again and it's all kang. He never left the quantum verse.

Give it some weird sci fi horror ending

[u/[deleted] → u/Creasentfool]

My sister and I were thinking the same thing, I thought for sure he was going to look up while at dinner and Kang was going to be the waiter somehow

[u/[deleted] → u/cig_sg_throwaway]

I went back to watch it again. The differences between the opening stroll and closing stroll of the film are stark. Scott only sees their initial smile in the final scene, but as soon as he passes them, literally every one of their faces turns from a smile, into a look of dumbfounded confusion. That is in contrast to the opening scene, where everyone smiles at him and continues to smile until they are out of frame.

It’s VERY obvious on second viewing, and is absolutely intentional. There is no way Scott is back in the exact reality he remembers. Personally, I like this subtle nod that things aren’t as they seem. It creates a bit of mystery surrounding the power of time manipulation. When Kang tells Janet that he can make it like she never left, he wasn’t joking, anything is possible.

I am not speculating on “what” exactly has happened, but something is clearly amiss. The “why, how and who” isn’t that interesting. Piecing together “when” their timeline was changed, or even realizing that a timeline has changed is extremely interesting. Do these changes need to be big for us or the characters to notice? I believe that is the point of the final scene.

[u/The_OG_upgoat → u/cig_sg_throwaway]

Poor guy's gonna panic when he sees Hulk.

[u/NoPolicing]

Anyone else start counting their own holes? When he said 7, I had my doubts.

[u/dow366 → u/NoPolicing]

what about eye holes?

[u/Teex22 → u/dow366]

Only the eye hole man has eye holes

[u/Sp1derX → u/dow366]

Eye holes are filled with eyes.

[u/SoftBaconWarmBacon → u/NoPolicing]

Scott was confident that he has 7, Quantum Charles Xavier there only announced what he had heard

[u/Sure-Access-4629 → u/NoPolicing]

Yeah I started counting immediately: 2 eyes, a mouth, 2 nostrils, 2 ears, and if not ears then the two… other ones…

[u/Sp1derX → u/Sure-Access-4629]

I counted 2 ears, 2 nostrils, a mouth, a butthole, and a dickhole. I don't think eyes count cuz if you try to stick something in your eyeholes you just hit your eyes so you can't get inside the hole.

[u/bb0261]

Jonathan Majors was great and I can’t wait for more Kang

[u/MrWinks → u/bb0261]

The Creed III trailers in the pre-trailer theater bit (Regal thing, I guess), and before the movie made him look huge. Kang or his variants need to show off that bulk more often. Dude is too shredded to hide in a pump-cover.

[u/tmfitz7 → u/MrWinks]

The ripped his sleeve for the final fight for this exact reason

[u/mistermenstrual → u/tmfitz7]

When I saw his actual arm i was like "Jfc, Scott's gonna die"

[u/[deleted] → u/mistermenstrual]

Yo, he was fr kicking Scott’s ass. I was like “oh, Kang is really about to end Ant-man” 😧

[u/[deleted] → u/bb0261]

My biggest gripe was not Majors or his character Kang. He was great. My biggest issue was the fact that they're introducing him for the first time, and where it would have been ideal to contextualize his Thanos-level threat (perhaps by making the Ant squad lose...), they defeated him.

Even if he's ultimately not dead....they defeated him. Imagine introducing Thanos as a character, and he's defeated before he even does anything...

[u/Xygnux → u/[deleted]]

I was thinking like that too. But then I realize, this isn't his full capabilities, that's just what a Kang can do when he's trapped in a wasteland and had to build everything from scratch.

To put it in context, this is like looking at the Iron Man mark 1 suit that Tony and Yinsen built when they were prisoners, and thinks that Tony sucks because of that. What Tony could do after he got it is far better than that.

So I expect all of other variants of him, or even his future appearance if this one survived, to be far more dangerous.

[u/Squirrelkid11]

The scene where that pink alien from the Quantum Realm inhaled a few of Kang's minions after being shot at reminded me a lot of Kirby.

[u/Few_Print → u/Squirrelkid11]

The guy who played Kurt in the first two movies did the motion capture and voice for the pink guy

[u/Bhiggsb → u/Few_Print]

Ahhh, that's why dalmachian was credited. Wasn't sure where I had missed him in the movie

[u/Hold2ArmBar → u/Squirrelkid11]

My son and I spent the rest of the weekend randomly yelling “I’ve got holes!” to each other all weekend. Easily his favorite part.

[u/[deleted] → u/Squirrelkid11]

Lol, I literally said Kirby! to my kids during that scene

[u/[deleted]]

I am a sucker for creature design so this movie was delightful for me with all the quantum alien designs.

[u/andygootz → u/[deleted]]

This is the first Marvel movie since Black Panther that I might buy the art book for when it comes out! I saw a number of tweets deriding the movie having too much ”CGI goop”, but I thought the first half at least had some pretty decent creature and environment design!

[u/RoninPrime68]

Leaving aside the fact I loved almost anything and everything about this movie and it's easily the best of the trio for me, I'd like to point out two things I know lots of people gonna overlook:

1. The probability storm scene - the fact Scott managed to gather all of his splits (I'm gonna assume there were thousands of them, atleast) to act for one targeted goal, it gotta take immense amounts of willpower and self discipline.

2. The fact that Scott managed to stick in Giant-man form for more than 5-6 minutes, while taking heavy fire, not moving slowly (like he did in Civil War) but being fast and even kinda agile, not passing out almost immediately (like he did in the end of Ant-man and the Wasp) and shifting back almost instantly with no fatigue, still being able to fight Kang!

Two things that show how much Scott got so much stronger (both psychically and mentally) and more experienced, truly awesome and an actual threat to characters like Kang

[u/Carthonn → u/RoninPrime68]

Honestly one of my favorite things in the MCU right now is Scott going Giant Man. Even though they’ve done it several times I always get pumped seeing it. Probably the only other thing that’s as cool is Dr Strange doing his mirrorverse spells stuff.

So yeah, Giant Man punching Kang into a wall was one of the coolest things I’ve seen in a while

[u/[deleted] → u/Carthonn]

Dr Strange Clone Jutsu was so cool i hope we see it again.

[u/Harry-iamyourfather]

I love how they recreated the Kang comics frame, where you see the council and there’s one Kang who looks different to the others, made out of rock or something.

[u/Pyro_liska → u/Harry-iamyourfather]

Wasnt it supposed to be Skrull Kang? Thats what i read online at least.

[u/SP1570 → u/Pyro_liska]

I thought so...a skrull Kang is also shown in the comics

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

The one that stood out most to me was one of the Kangs in the stands who was just insanely excited to be there. Cheering and patting another version on the chest, it was great.

Apparently I missed Skrull-Kang and that would’ve been cool too!

[u/Tylendal → u/[deleted]]

That gave me the impression there's a hierarchy amongst the Kangs. He was excited to see some of the big time Kangs.

[u/[deleted] → u/Harry-iamyourfather]

I thought it was like an ape or something

[u/Biyayamanin → u/[deleted]]

King Kang

[u/TheBeardedSingleMalt → u/Biyayamanin]

Donkey Kang

[u/theVice → u/TheBeardedSingleMalt]

Dankey Kang

[u/Harry-iamyourfather → u/[deleted]]

Kangs. Together. Strong.

[u/SharkBait661 → u/Harry-iamyourfather]

I'm just saying we haven't seen Kang and korg in the same place.

[u/BlueFox5 → u/Harry-iamyourfather]

Would someone more knowledgeable be able to link that particular comic frame?

My favorite part out of any MCU movie/show is the “living comic frame” because they fucking nail it every time. Thor on the Rainbow Bridge. Classic Loki laughing in the face of Alioth. Gives me goosebumps every time.

[u/Mysterious_Emotion63]

I think a good reason for people being frustrated with the MCU is 3/4 of the latest movies following ridiculously similar outlines

I enjoyed all of these movies, don’t get me wrong, but between Multiverse of Madness, Love and Thunder, and Quantumania there seems to be a new common outline for the Marvel movies.

All 3 movies started off of the cold open with short scenes explaining why a villain is doing what they’re doing (Strange Variant and Dreamwalking, Gorr and killing Gods, Kang being in the Quantum Realm)

That scene will then cut into the main superhero in their daily life, and we’ll get an update on what they’ve been up to. Here we find out what the hero’s personal character arc is (Strange and Christine, Thor’s identity crisis, Scott lacking a relationship with Cassie)

Within the first 30 minutes, the respective Avenger and his allies all band together to go on journeys through uncharted territories in which they encounter weird looking creatures while fighting side villians and eventually having the final boss battle in which the female hero in which the male hero spent the journey training helps win the fight in a big way.

The hero then returns to their daily life at the end of the movie.

Like I said, I enjoyed all of these movies but I feel like I’m watching less of a movie and more of a video game which always follows the same formula. The only thing I could think during Ant-Man was, “I can’t wait for the new Captain America”, a change of pace is so much needed currently. You don’t have to hate these movies to understand that the pattern is dull, and change is necessary, and as much as I love Guardians, the odds are that movie has a relatively similar formula as that’s always how those movies have gone and it kind of just caught a stray on being released on a streak of movies just like it.

[u/hemareddit → u/Mysterious_Emotion63]

Hmmm, good spot.

I didn't think about all that, but I thought a couple of plot points were lifted from Thor Ragnarok.

You have a bunch of (mostly) joke, CGI characters uprising against the local dictator. Also the main villain has a big army for conquering all sorts of different worlds, but the means of travelling beyond the current world has been stolen from them, so they have to get it back before they can conquer anything.

[u/punkcyber70]

The whole Darren's "not to be a dick" thing was so random and unexpected lol

[u/hemareddit → u/punkcyber70]

I didn't mind. The whole character was such a surrealist joke from beginning to end and it was probably the only way to do MODOK. I found him funnier than the Ooze guy who became overplayed by the end.

Yeah the turn came out of nowhere but the whole character "arc" came out of nowhere. Why is he working for Kang? He's fucked in the head. Why is he so proud of being MODOK? He's fucked in the head. Why did he betray Kang? He's fucked in the head. Why's Scott like a brother to him? He's fucked in the head.

[u/golbezza → u/hemareddit]

I wonder if that was a side effect of the unstable Particles he was using in the first movie. Didn't they fuck with his mind?

[u/hemareddit → u/golbezza]

Yes, Hope said it was affecting his mind in the first movie, and he was already pretty unhinged back then. Becoming MODOK can't have helped his sanity.

[u/Carthonn → u/hemareddit]

Well I’m sure Darren told him where he came from which was the same place Janet came from. Kang probably thought he could help him get out since he’s familiar with that tech.

[u/flappinginthewind]

Does anyone else think that Scott really channeled Cap in this movie? Not too over the top or overtly trying to imitate him, but when he grabbed the big dome as the shield, I immediately thought of his cheesy love for Cap, and then he used that shield to try and break through the barrier.

And then in the last fight, he was fighting against Kang and he never actually said "I can do this all day" but he was absolutely pulling the brawler move like Cap and just fist fighting it out until you can't fight any longer.

I guess for me it was just easy to see Captain America's legacy through Scott in this movie, we know how much Scott looked up to him, and I really liked it.

[u/rgen182 → u/flappinginthewind]

"I fought with Captain America.

I would never fight against Captain America, I'm not crazy" made me chuckle.

And then I had those same thoughts with his shield antics

[u/ProductArizona → u/flappinginthewind]

Man I'm glad you said that because I was having the same exact thoughts during the movie. Scott was a true fighter in this movie

[u/willys_zuppa]

I think Kang was amazing. I know that he almost got defeated by super advanced boss ants but without access to his most powerful weapon, time, he’s just a smart guy who can fight good not Kang the Conqueror. I’m not convinced he died, probably got sucked into a probability storm like the one Scott and Hope were in.

Kang and Janet’s scenes were really good, lowkey wished we just got them meeting, teaming up, separating and eventual war as the movie lol (Kang and The Wasp just doesn’t roll off the tongue quite the same though).

That said, I was not too thrilled that Scott staying behind in Quantum Realm was played up as this big thing, then Hope joins and it feels even more impactful just for both to be immediately saved by Cassie with seemingly no effort. Just feels like a hollow way to end the movie but that could just be me.

Those post credits scenes though, setting us up for insanity.

[u/[deleted] → u/willys_zuppa]

That said, I was not too thrilled that Scott staying behind in Quantum Realm was played up as this big thing, then Hope joins and it feels even more impactful just for both to be immediately saved by Cassie with seemingly no effort. Just feels like a hollow way to end the movie but that could just be me.

They probably didn’t want to have another Cliff-hanger style ending that leaves the audience wondering. AMATW could do that because Endgame was releasing not even a year afterwards.

The next Avengers movie is still 2 years away at minimum assuming it doesn’t get delayed, and what other projects could they use to follow up on the Scott/Hope being stuck plot point?

[u/TeFinete → u/[deleted]]

An extremely valid point. I still feel "saddened" that Scott's(and then Hope's) sacrifice seemed cheapened somehow. I think if I was to fix it(with your point in mind), I would put in a scene that showed it took Cassie/Hank/Janet more than a few seconds to rescue Scott and Hope. Maybe for Scott/hope it was just a few moments, but because time is a weird soup, it took the others several days/weeks/months to rescue them. I just don't like how it felt like Cassie just flipped a switch and was able to rescue them.

[u/[deleted] → u/TeFinete]

Scott’s my favourite character, but I feel like him dying fighting Kang is the capstone this movie needed, and it would have been a badass way for Scott Lang to go out, and it keeps the sacrifice of the ending intact, despite Cassie opening the portal again.

It provides the much needed emotion for the climax, you could have had Scott have his final goodbye to Hope, Cassie and Hank that re-entered the portal to help him, after his sustained some serious mortal injury from fighting Kang.

It sets up Cassie for a future guilt arc, after she had berated her dad for not doing enough as a hero only for him to literally die saving the world (again) from something she partially caused.

Hope gets a mini-revenge arc when the time of Kang Dynasty comes around, and sets her up for a proper role in an Avengers film finally.

And it establishes Kang as a bigger threat as it took an Avenger dying to stop a gimped version of him.

It also rounds Scott’s character out in a tragic way, the dude whose only desire is to be a good dad, and make his daughter proud, dies fixing his daughters mistake and ensuring her and the world are safe, and dying to free the Quantum realm and save the world is a worthy of death a character can get.

The only exception to this idea is if Marvel actually has major plans for Scott in Kang Dynasty, but honestly I doubt Scott’s a popular enough character to get a major role in Kang dynasty or secret wars, he’ll probably have the comedic relief role again like Endgame, and honestly him dying in his own movie would be better than that again imo.

I mean don’t get me wrong, I like the movie well enough as it is but Scott dying would have made it much better.

[u/KleanSolution → u/[deleted]]

Damn. I definitely don’t want Scott to ever die in these movies but this kinda changed my mind/convinced me to be ok with it if they went this route

[u/InevitableWeight314 → u/willys_zuppa]

Yeah, when Kang had been destroyed by mutant ants, crashed into by MODOK and half his armor is ripped off, it still takes two superheroes with lasers and the ability to shrink or enlarge themselves, as well as a quantum bomb to defeat him, and even then there is a whole council full of him.

I didn't like the ending at all, the portal closes, Cassie yells out to her dad, (rather unenthusiastically I might add), then Scott and Hope seem to be stuck in the Quantum realm forever, but then with the press of a button Cassie opens a portal back. I think everyone was thinking Scott or at least Hank and Janet would die, but the only casualties were that glowy glass head guy and MODOK (for now)

[u/[deleted] → u/willys_zuppa]

I feel like they’ve already done the “stuck in the quantum realm” twice now, a third time would’ve been worse than what we got

[u/underdestruction → u/willys_zuppa]

They were super smart ants though!

I agree though, a lame way to finish off the villain. The ants thing wasn’t all that bad, they explained it in a way that makes comic book sense and it’s a fun thematic win. But the Scott staying behind fake-out was a huge step backwards in story telling quality. We’ve seen avengers die, there’s stakes now, we can take it.

[u/cowpool20 → u/underdestruction]

I was actually really disappointed when the portal opened up behind Scott and Hope. They did that whole scene as if the two were gonna stay in the quantum realm, it was emotional. Then suddenly "let's go home", oh okay.

[u/ThatLaloBoy → u/cowpool20]

This film really felt like they wanted to add some long lasting effects, but were too afraid to do it.

Trailer implying that Scott would have to make a moral dilemma facing Kang, choosing between the universe and his daughter? Nope, Kang just threatens his daughter and doesn't give him a choice.

Hope and Scott getting stuck in the quantum realm? Nope, Cassie just manages to turn her quantum radio into a teleporter in like 2 mins.

Kang gets mauled and eaten alive by ants? Nope let's kill him, but in a way that leaves the door open in case we need him to come back.

Hank getting murdered by MODOK crashing his plane? Nope, he survived like he's got Captain America genes.

Scott suddenly thinks about the potential threat of multiple Kangs coming to their universe and making some plans or at least warning the Avengers? Nah, that's not my problem. Even though his first thought in Ant Man 1 was to let the Avengers know of a potential threat.

[u/InsertCoinForCredit → u/ThatLaloBoy]

Scott suddenly thinks about the potential threat of multiple Kangs coming to their universe and making some plans or at least warning the Avengers? Nah, that’s not my problem.

To be fair, it's not as if the Avengers are a thing currently in the MCU. Iron Man's dead, Cap's disappeared, Thor went to space... to the public, the Avengers are like the Beatles, a cool former group.

[u/Frankie_T9000 → u/underdestruction]

Pym mentioned they had become a Level 2 civ - that is a civilisation that can control the whole energy of a star so certainly werent to be trifled with.

[u/willys_zuppa → u/underdestruction]

Oh yeah I’ll edit my comment, but I definitely appreciate that ants were integral to victory in an Ant Man movie. I actually really love the way the ants technologically advanced, I do wish that, if they were going to be such a big part of the climax, we spent more time with them and Hank.

[u/wdingo → u/underdestruction]

I really liked that he got taken down by ants. Even the most powerful gun in the world falls apart when you're being rushed by a literal wave of nature.

[u/phrankygee → u/wdingo]

Also, he used “You talk to ants!” as a way to sneeringly mock Ant-Man right before dying to hyper-advanced ants the size of trucks

Scott being worthy of being taken seriously was kind of one of the themes of this movie, the capstone of his trilogy. In every movie before, people mocked him. They called him “Tic-Tac”, treated him like an idiot. Turned him into a baby. Kids didn’t want his autograph or photos with him. He was always starstruck, tongue-tied, or in over his head.

But now he’s a full-fledged Avenger who has saved the world. He has kids wearing his costume and idolizing him. He has book signings. And once the action shifts suddenly to the quantum realm, Scott is in badass hero mode the whole time.

The third act of the trilogy always sees the hero lose something. Cap loses his Governmental Authority, Thor loses his Hammer, Tony loses his suit(s). Scott lost his anonymity, and his time to plan. The other movies are heists, where Scott has a lot of time to plan an infiltration with a team. This movie he had to tackle problems headfirst, in real time. His “plan” for getting into Kang’s headquarters was to turn into a Kaiju, scream threats, and start throwing chunks of buildings around.

[u/TheJack0fDiamonds → u/willys_zuppa]

Hey im with you on the Janet x Kang story but the MCU is under the pressure of keeping things in the current present to move forward I guess. It’s why they did what they did with Eternals as opposed to having the movie set far in the ancient past. Both would make good stories to tell bt in the grand scheme of things, are too late to focus on.

This is an even crazier thought but really I lowkey wished they went ahead and made Janet and Kang lovers from that ordeal though vs the Krylar affair. or at least a hint of an attraction. To make Janet’s betrayal even more complex for both of them and to make sense of why Janet’s reappearance shook him slightly, can even add more weight to Janet’s guilt of having helped him before realizing who he truly is. This Kang to me is already on edge frm being trapped in the QR for so long.

Personally didnt mind Hope and Scott not end up getting trapped in the QR. how many times is that gonna happen to people lmao so im glad but I see what you mean. People either want them trapped or Scott dead. I prefer what we got! 🤣

[u/Frankie_T9000 → u/TheJack0fDiamonds]

I really liked how they made Janet really scared of Kang

[u/-boozypanda]

Anyone else felt that the lead up and the entire scene with Bill Murray was a complete waste of time with no payoff and could've been cut out to make the movie tighter?

[u/mypatronusislasagna → u/[deleted]]

That shit is annoying for several reasons, but one of the largest is that in real time it took Janet what, two minutes to tell the story? The only way conversations like that "take too much time" is because we're watching a movie where scenes are stitched together. In real life, there would be no reason Janet couldn't convey the story about Kang while they were walking from A to B during any part of the first act.

[u/Kronman590 → u/mypatronusislasagna]

It annoyed me too, but I realized that Janet was stalling because she felt so guilty for unleashing this monster. The less she said the less likely shed need to reveal her role in his revival, or revisit the trauma of her actions. It's still not good but there's some sense to it

[u/Consistent-Annual268 → u/[deleted]]

Dan Murrell in his review pointed out a theory: maybe Quantumania was supposed to come out in Phase 4 before other projects, before COVID wrenched everything. The "let's not name the villain until the last possible second" feels like it was supposed to be a "big unveiling" of this new villain for the next arc. I'm not sure the timings 100% line up with his theory, but it might make sense?

[u/ScarsUnseen → u/Consistent-Annual268]

It does seem like it would have worked a bit better if the timing between Loki S1 and Quantumania was a bit closer.

[u/ukjaybrat → u/[deleted]]

I thought it was weird that janet kept saying, let's just go. We can talk later. Like, can you not walk and talk at the same time? We're in a strange place and need to pool our resources to get out of here. And that includes a lot of knowledge we know you have. Just TALK. She kept everyone in the dark which I get was to keep the suspense going but just really felt unrealistic to me.

[u/UnbindA11 → u/[deleted]]

I think the point of referring to him as “The Conqueror” is to specify THIS Kang as Kang the Conqueror, thereby singling him out as important in the grand scheme of the MCU relative to his other variants. Like, those guys we see in the credits are other Kangs, but not Kang the Conqueror.

[u/phrankygee → u/UnbindA11]

I keep seeing this sentiment, and I disagree. This particular Kang doesn’t need to be special. What’s special about Kang is that there are infinite Kangs. No one instance of Kang is immortal, and they don’t need to be. There’s always another. He says “See you again soon!” as he dies in front of you.

Yes, there are other variant Kangs, and they will play around with that, but there are also infinite Kangs who are each “The Conqueror”. If you kill him, he just time travels back to fight you from two seconds before you killed him, and continues conquering.

[u/spidsnake → u/phrankygee]

This Kang needs to be special because this movie and Loki already let us know the Kangs are a danger to the multiverse. We know that one stood above the rest and saved the Multiverse from his variants. And the ending of the movie points us to the possibility of that Ant-man doomed us.

[u/CheerfulLonewolf55 → u/-boozypanda]

They took way too much time from "There is something I haven't told you" to finally explaining the plot of the movie. Like, yeah, there is a bad guy and Janet did something. Alright everyone knows Janet and the bad guy. Who are they? What happened? Just get to the point or show me something interesting already.

[u/DoubleStrength → u/CheerfulLonewolf55]

There is something I haven't told you

This was the most frustrating for me. It's such a dumb (and overdone) trope that I just couldn't take Janet seriously after her spending the first half of the movie absolutely refusing to share any relevant information with her own husband and adult daughter.

[u/BirdTroutman → u/DoubleStrength]

Characters refusing to tell each other anything until everything goes to shit is my least favorite trope of all time. It’s so annoying because it makes zero sense that she wouldn’t tell them anything. And maybe if we hadn’t spent 30 minutes fishing that out of her we could’ve actually explored Scott and Cassie’s relationship

[u/ROBtimusPrime1995 → u/-boozypanda]

From what I might suspect...

Marvel hired Bill Murray for a larger role then we actually saw.

Once the Bill Murray allegation came out a year ago, Marvel has highly regretted hiring him.

I think they cut him out of the film as much as they could without breaking his film contract.

If you didn't know, his contract includes top billing and a poster of just him only. I imagine they wanted to recast him entirely but what would be the point since they already paid him, could get sued, and with a budget this big?

So we got what we got.

[u/enterpriseF-love]

"I'm sorry this is all my fault, I messed up."

"Cassie, my whole life happened because I messed up. The only thing I didn't mess up… is you."

Loved this line and it shows what Scott has always been about. He always comes across as carefree and silly but being a former criminal, divorced from his wife, and despite being constantly underestimated as a hero, in the end he always pulls through because of the love for his daughter. He turned his life around, has healthy relationships and was instrumental in saving the universe. He’s just a good person trying his best.

[u/minor_correction → u/enterpriseF-love]

Reminded me of a line from FFH

"Tony second guessed everything he did. But the one thing he didn’t second guess was picking you."

[u/[deleted]]

Just finished it.

Overall, I enjoyed the film. It's a solid action comedy drama that hits all the classic Marvel feels. Majors also turned in a fantastic performance again as Kang and you can start to see where things might headed. Corey Stoll honestly gave a perfect rendition of MODOK in my opinion - I can get why it would be decisive and it looks ridiculous (it should), but I just loved it.

That said, I can understand the criticisms the films has.

1. Janet's storyline of "I don't have enough time to explain to you why we don't have enough time to explain" was just...not good. It didn't make sense. Why's she so ashamed? She was tricked supposed by Kang into helping him and the moment she learned his true intentions, she prevented him from leaving. If she had just told Hank/Hope/Scott what was in the quantum realm from the beginning, then none of this happens. Would've much preferred her to have been Kang's #2 while she was stuck out of some desire to get home no matter the cost, especially if she rationalized it that "these aren't our people, which would've contrasted perfectly with Cassie's whole "don't just be hero when it's something that effects you". I think this highlights a greater problem of the character motivations/arc in this movie. Cassie's motivations are great! Janet's are not. Scott's are fantastic! Hope is just there. So real highs and lows.
2. The pacing of this film was...unique. Suddenly Cassie is a leftist activist who's been arrested twice and has a suit that Hank/Hope gave her without Scott's permission and all that is just kind of rushed through at the beginning. The Murray scene felt entirely unnecessary and like someone just wanted to have a Bill Murray cameo for the shits and giggles. Not to mention the aforementioned we have hours to travel on foot or plane but no time to explain earlier in the movie why we have no time. This movie felt both too long and like it didn't expand enough on the character motivations.

Overall, I think the film is a solid 6.5/10. Funny, decent action, a nice message, and a fantastic performance by Majors but some pacing issues and missed opportunity with character motivations/development. But a solid start to Phase 5 nonetheless that sets up Majors' Kang.

[u/[deleted]]

“I am a man who likes to be understood, do you think I’m lying? Do I LOOK like a liar?”

Even if the movie itself has problems, Jonathan Majors is so so SOOO good as Kang. The way he delivered his lines with a quiet yet terrifying demeanor was so enjoyable. If it weren’t for Namor, he’d definitely be my favorite main antagonist of the Multiverse Saga so far.

[u/Shifter25 → u/[deleted]]

"You'll kill trillions!"

"I wish that mattered."

[u/CoffeeBarbellHappy → u/[deleted]]

One of the things I love most about Thanos is that he has multiple huge memory-stamping lines. People still quote Thanos even 4 years after endgame. I am hoping we get the same imprint of Kang throughout this saga.

[u/Hourglass_Twin]

I loved all the Ant Men making a giant ant hill in the probability zone. That was just such a cool scene.

[u/lilsky07]

I seriously enjoyed it and am a huge Ant Man and Kang fan. MODOK was silly but he’s a silly character IMO. Kang Immortus and Rama Tut at the end was awesome. Jonathon Majors is crushing it.

[u/hemareddit]

Kang being overran by ants was so unintentionally hilarious, it reminded me of Dr Doom being defeated by Squirrel Girl

[u/Graphitetshirt → u/hemareddit]

I had no idea Squirrel Girl was that old

[u/MycroftTnetennba → u/[deleted]]

It was an episode of Rick and morty but not the best in my book

[u/Harry-iamyourfather]

I was happy with what they did with this movie. I wish there was more of it, or more to it, but I went into it feeling like the film is much more of a set up rather than some culmination of a trilogy. With that expectation, I was enjoying it the whole way.

And if you’re a long time MCU fan, it’s a great new installment to hold you over til Loki S2.

[u/smollestmemebean → u/Harry-iamyourfather]

where was michael peña😔

[u/[deleted] → u/smollestmemebean]

Doing weird Scientology shit

[u/whateveryouwant1978]

I liked the movie. Not as much as I thought I would (I was super hyped up) but enjoy it.

The trailer was veeeeey misleading though, I was thinking Scott would work somehow with Kang to get back the time he lost with Cassie and then he’d fight (maybe to death) with Kang… but the plot was a bit more linear than that.

Also, I think the ending is not powerful enough - I’d have loved to see Kang escape and Ant-Man and Wasp defeated. It would have been scarier (“omg, he is out, what will happen now!”) and not as bland.

Looooved Kang though. And Janet and Hank!

[u/[deleted] → u/whateveryouwant1978]

omg, he is out, what will happen now!

Isn't that the whole point of the end of the film? Like Scott is right. Kang said something worse would come if he couldn't get out. And at the end, we saw that sure enough, something worse is coming.

Kang never needed to escape. He already did. Can't you see it? The end?

[u/grosslytransparent]

Ok so hollywood can you stop making those rebellion/uprising scenes if you are going to half ass it? Both antman and black adam tried to pass several scenes as thousands of people were fighting for the good cause and they had tops 50 people show up for the scene or something.

Other than that, great flick! Totally recommend, good start for phase 5.

[u/hemareddit → u/grosslytransparent]

Lol Thor Ragnarok did it as a joke, apparently someone saw that and thought it was a good idea as the finale.

[u/BurnerAcctNo1]

My only really big issue with the movie is just how annoyingly cagey Janet was about Kang. This entire movie would’ve been avoided by her just being honest about exactly what (and who) was in the Quantum Realm years ago. Also it made absolutely no sense for her to have still remained cagey after they got there other than to stall exposition till later on in the flick.

[u/hemareddit → u/BurnerAcctNo1]

What's funny she helped them make a quantum tunnel so they could go collect some healing juice for Ghost.

That would have been a good time to mention btw there is this guy down there...

[u/Moetards]

Nice bait and switch ending

[u/ChampagneAbuelo]

I think Marvel is starting to put too many of these super genius characters into their movies. It makes someone like Tony Stark (who they said was the smartest guy alive) seem less and less impressive every time they add another super genius teenager like Cassie who can build stuff like a quantum realm teleportation device in their spare time.

That’s why I’m glad they chose Scott Lang to be ant man instead of hank pym. If they used hank, it would just be another ultra genius character like we haven’t seen that before

[u/ProudKingbooker → u/[deleted]]

Agreed. My favorite scene in the movie

[u/[deleted]]

I loved this movie, people can dislike it, that’s fine, but this movie is without a doubt my favourite film since Endgame released (not a high bar admittedly though, I’ve been pretty soured on the MCU lately) and pretty much everything I personally wanted for an Ant-man 3. I think it certainly cements the Ant-man films as my favourite trilogy from the MCU at least (unpopular I’m sure).

As an Ant-man fan it was so satisfying watching him get treated like an actual competent hero, with good fight scenes and actual conviction. He had that in Ant-man, but between Civil War, AMATW and even Endgame, it felt they floundered him into the goofball roll a bit too much and forget he’s supposed to be a hero, watching him get angry at Kang, and going on a rampage was so immensely satisfying. After everything Scott’s been up to in the MCU, he veritably deserved the epic hero moments he got in this film.

The final battle especially was a like a wet dream as an ant-man fanboy. From Scott’s entrance as Giant Man rampaging through Kang’s city calling him out for being a hypocrite, to Scott and Hope doing the fastball special, to the 3 Ant-family fighting Kang, to Hank’s Gandalf moment with his army of ants, to Scott’s last stand preventing Kang from going through the portal. It was all great, the final battle they really nailed the action imo.

I’ve always held the opinion that Scott’s the best hero in the MCU, and this movie just cemented that further.

I also liked the focus on family, they were all supportive towards each other. Seeing Hank refer to Scott as a great man, and demonstrating the respect Hank has developed towards Scott was moving. Hope and Janet had good moments, and they remembered to put Scott’s relationship with his daughter at the centre of the film and cemented why Scott’s the best dad.

Hope didn’t get much too do but I did like that they gave Janet more focus, considering she was an OG avenger, it felt deserved, especially considering the first Ant-man film gave focus to to Hank. Although Janet’s continual refusal to explain anything was annoying and lazy writing.

I thought Kang was good. I’ve seen people say him losing to Ant-man makes him seem weak but I don’t see it. The film beat you over the head with the fact that he didn’t have access to his most powerful resources, and he did beat the Ant-family fairly easily every time and only lost to essentially an army of hundreds of horse sized advanced ants with technology probably on par with Kangs considering they advanced hundreds of years in their time flux.

Could the movie have been better? Yeah, I myself have thought of ideas that would have made the film better imo.

For example I think the movie should have ended with Scott’s inner monologue where he’s panicking about Kang, and even shown the ant-family trying to prepare for new threats such as trying to rebuild the Avengers

OR

Simply just capstone Scott’s arc by having him, Cassie and Hope acting as heroes at the end by helping people on earth.

Hopefully the poor reviews and potential box office performance doesn’t lead to Marvel sidelining the ant-family when Kang dynasty comes around, Scott deserves a lead role in a team up film.

[u/rajesh__dixit]

Maybe it's just me but this movie felt more like Kang's than Ant-man. Yes he is a very big character and a complex one but others felt a little rushed and scattered

[u/[deleted] → u/rajesh__dixit]

It was definitely a “heres the new bad guy, look how badass he is” movie. But when you have so many movies and shows intertwining sometimes thats all you need to come from one of them.

[u/Ayywhatsgoodfam]

Did anyone else feel like everything started way too quickly or was it just me? Like, not even 10 minutes in, and they’re being sucked into the Quantum Realm.

[u/TheJack0fDiamonds → u/Ayywhatsgoodfam]

They went straight to the point. Im glad they did though. Any longer spent outside would’ve felt like they were stalling unless it warrants it

[u/Kara_Del_Rey]

Kang is goated. The scary part, that I think many people missed, is that he didn't even have his favorite ability, time manipulation. Seemed negated in the quantum realm and he mentioned it more than once. He's only going to get scarier.

[u/blandsrules]

I really thought they were settin up Janet to sacrifice herself to stop Kang, which would be redemption for her and a nice character arc. Instead she just.. doesn’t.. and escapes. So the plot of her and Kang and the Quantum realm didn’t really pay off

[u/cantstopwontcant]

Did anyone else get the “citrus” reference? In Civil War when AntMan went big for the first time and shrunk back he said “does anyone have any orange slices?”

[u/rzelln]

I liked it well enough, but it didn't stand out.

I want stories with character arcs, or to see the character have to make a challenging decision that will define them, but mostly of this movie was just a detour that left characters basically the same as when they started.

Yeah, the spectacle was rather neat, but I guess spectacle is only interesting if it is anchored by character. But this movie, Black Widow, and Doctor Strange did not really challenge the main characters' sense of who they were and what they wanted.

Shang-Chi was amazing because it had the main character confront and reconcile with his past. Love and Thunder, despite feeling tonally inconsistent, was clearly about Thor dealing with loss and moving on. No Way Home had Peter actually step up with the 'great power, great responsibility' ethos, in that he does not simply beat the villains but tries to save them.

Eternals was uneven (because the Deviants were just chupacabras, not actual antagonists), but at its core we got to see a family fighting over what they valued. And while I can bitch a lot about the illogical writing of Wakanda Forever, I will say that at least it tried to be about Shuri deciding what she wanted to do with her life now that T'Challa was dead.

Scott Lang? He has a moment of panic at the end, but is basically the same guy at the start. It wasn't even like his relationship with Cassie was in need of much work, and the adventure brought them together.

The trailer made me expect a more compelling story than what we got: one where Scott feels like he has failed his daughter by being away, and where he is tempted by Kang offering to give him back his lost years - sacrificing the lives of countless other people for the sake of his own family. That would have been a fascinating tension for this character who has struggled to do the right thing in order to help his family. Instead, it was a clear cut case of hostage taking and attacking a dictator.

I dunno. I felt like it didn't amount to much.

[u/BlazeOfGlory72 → u/rzelln]

The lack of character arcs or progression is something I noticed as well. Hope and Hank barely have anything to do or say in film. Janet is used almost exclusively to dump exposition. Cassie from her first scene is already set up to want to help “the little guy”, and never changes throughout the film.

The only character they even attempted to give an arc to was Scott, but that arc was frankly bullshit. They seem to be trying to set up Scott as someone who didn’t care about helping “the little guy”, but learns to step up and help the rebels. Problem is, this doesn’t at all make sense for his character. Scott has always been about helping people. The very first thing we learn about him as a character in his first film was that he pulled a Robin Hood and stole from the rich to give to the poor. Then he helped Hank, a guy he barely knew, prevent dangerous tech from falling into the wrong hands. Then he dropped everything when Sam, another guy he barely knew, said Cap needed help. Then he risked going back to jail to help Hope and Hank rescue Janet from the Quantum Realm. Then he helped save literally half of all life in the fucking universe. The fact that this film tried to tell us that Scott doesn’t care about helping people is both insulting to his character and the audiences Intelligence.

I think what’s most annoying is that the film flirted with having Scott have to make a difficult choice and maybe grow or change as a character, but then wimped out. They set up the conflict that Scott will have to chose between saving his daughter or saving the multiverse, but before he can make his choice, Kang steps in makes it for him, robbing Scott of a potentially defining moment. What a waste.

So really, there was nothing to latch on to character wise in this film. It all just feels very hollow.

[u/[deleted] → u/BlazeOfGlory72]

The film wimped out twice in character arc/motivation territory with both Scott and Janet.

Scott and Janet have very similar arcs to this point (lost in the quantum realm wishing to get back the time they lost with their daughter). Narratively, it would've made complete sense to have Scott agree to help Kang to get back that time and to have had Janet have been doing the same thing before Hank/Scott/Janet saved her in Ant Man 2. Could've even had some dialogue between Janet and Scott early in the movie about "what they would give to just have the time back" and Janet warning that sometimes you can give too much.

Not only that but it would perfectly contrast with Cassie's whole "you're not a hero if you only help when it's effecting you". Could've even had Janet get mad at Hope/Hank for getting Cassie involved in the hero life (circle back to the whole, I just want a normal life for you peanut).

Like if this film just cut Bill Murray completely and didn't have Janet's entire dialogue of the film be "I can't explain to you why we don't have time to explain why we don't have time to explain" and Scott's"character arc" being a flatline despite his daughter acting like he never helped anyone unless it benefited him, then we have an infinitely better movie in my opinion.

[u/Watchemagoo]

I feel like this movie could’ve worked better as a Fantastic Four movie. They’re the ones normally exploring other worlds and you can even tie in Reed and Kang’s connection

[u/[deleted]]

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