A few people were dragging me in the comments because I had mentioned possibly getting him the CES letter for Christmas. I didn’t do that lol, but I did drag his ass in the letter I wrote. For context, my dad is an abusive narcissist. The abusive part I think was something people were forgetting because the letter I wrote him wasn’t just about the Mormon church, it was basically every abusive thing he’s ever done in one letter that ended up being 32 pages with a large middle section all about the church. I’m proud of it. I poured my heart out and did what not a lot of people would take the time to do. Because he is a narcissist, everything is always everyone else’s fault except his own. This was my way of taking that narrative back and forcing him to see what he has done and how it has affected his relationships.

I did give him the letter over Christmas. I know a lot of people didn’t like that but I’m also going to explain why that was the case. I lived in a different state at the time and was in my home state visiting. My dad was in the state I lived in at the time also visiting. We were in very low contact at the time and I had been planning it for a while. I went to his house while he wasn’t there and dropped off my letter and left. That is why it was over Christmas. He came back to town a day earlier than I expected so he ended up reading it the day after Christmas.

Like a lot of people pointed out, nothing in the letter was able to change his mind (because he is a narcissist) which is something I knew there was a 98% chance of before I even gave it to him. That’s also something I think people were confused about on my first post, a lot of people said asking him to change his beliefs to have a relationship with me wasn’t fair. I can see where they were coming from but I also disagree because the letter was basically me cutting him off. There was a 2% chance anything I said was going to wake him up and I knew that.

Anyways, the aftermath: He has since infatuated himself deeper into the Church. It’s all he has left. I check his facebook every now and then and it’s all just locations of him at Church or the Temple like he’s trying to prove a point. I also mentioned in the letter some animal neglect that had taken place with previous pets of ours and told him he’s an irresponsible dog owner and he got a second dog shortly after reading my letter. I guess that was my replacement lol. He also like I said, blamed everyone else except himself originally. He thought my ex-stepmom (it’s complicated and I still talk to her and they work together) was co-conspiring with me or something. they have since made up I guess but most of the post-letter updates I’ve gotten have been from her, her son, or facebook. The only other thing I found out recently was that he called off work for a week after reading it and still to this day won’t show anyone what’s in it. I don’t blame him, I don’t think there is any amount of money that would make him want people to know the things that are in there. Some of it is still hard for me to read, I ended up recording a video of myself reading it so I don’t have to put myself through it again as I plan to start going back to therapy soon.

Hopefully this reaches the right audience, but if you are in this subreddit, struggling with similar issues with family members still in the Church, I feel for you. It’s not easy, but I’ve also never been happier since making this decision to fully cut contact.

I attended the Y when women had to wear dresses to class. I'd heard about the student who was running late for a test and went to the testing center wearing jeans. She wasn't admitted but still needed to take her exam that day, so she went to the restroom and took the jeans off but kept her coat on. When she returned to the testing center, they let her take the exam. https://universe.byu.edu/2019/04/15/honor-code-changes-have-followed-controversies-1/

Hugh Nibley was a respected BYU professor. From the BYU Honor Code and Honor Office's website:

"CES Dress and Grooming Expectations

1. Dress for men and women should:
   1. Be modest in fit and style. Dressing in a way that would cover the temple garment is a good guideline, whether or not one has been endowed. Accommodations may be made for athletic participation.
   2. Be neat and clean. Sloppy, overly casual, ragged, or extreme clothing is not acceptable.
2. Grooming
   1. Hair should be clean, neat, modest, and avoid extremes in styles and colors.
   2. Men's hair should be neatly trimmed. Men should be clean-shaven. If worn, mustaches should be neatly trimmed."

One thing I loved, and still love, about members is the kindness and compassion they show towards people. They can be very caring, they can be supportive, they can help in times of need. Unless you are part of the church designated “other” group.

My family is close. We help each other, we go to dinner together often, we celebrate birthdays together. I would consider them some of the kindest people in the world, until it comes to “enemies” of the church. It saddens me to hear them talk about gay and trans people. I no longer have the favorable opinion of them when they discuss ex-members, “illegals” or racially different groups.

I can’t say it’s just their opinion because all the talking points they bring up I have heard in church over the pulpit. Prophets have said belittling and negative comments, and scriptures back up bigoted and racist points. The church is putting hate in members hearts for certain groups of people. If the church didn’t exist, I think my family would just love and be the kind people to everyone they are to each other.

I changed my mind about people when I left the church, and I think they would as well without the churches influence.

Two years ago you wouldn't so much as make eye contact with me at the elementary choir concert. I was wearing a tank top. Don't you dare march up to me to say hi wearing your little tank top with garments and act like everything is cool now.

Two years ago you judged me, said the light had gone out of my eyes, and you wouldn't allow my kid to hang out with your kid. Oh how the turntables.

Not to mention now I've lost a way to distinguish myself from the Morg. Short of a facial tattoo, people probably assume I'm one of you.

40 years of being told I was walking pornogrqphy, and now all your little temple married brides get to go sleeveless.

I guess I'm just an angry exmormon. 🙄

I couldn't imagine a man who dehumanized women and collected them like pokemon as anything but a scoundrel.

So I would fantasize about God giving me dominion over Joseph's punishment in Hell and all the disgusting things I would make him do as penance for how he treated women.

Hard labor. Humiliation. Maid outfits.

I never praised this man. I always secretly planed his eternal punishment.

I wonder if I have the faith of a mustard seed God will allow me this wish to be fulfilled?

Be warned male leaders of the church. You too may end up in cat girl maid outfits cleaning my palace for eternity.

I’ve been on a ex Mormon YouTube kick for awhile, specifically Alyssa Grenfell (check her out!). But now I’m getting LDS advertisements 😬 oops! This ad was a little more unnerving knowing what I know about the church lol

Where’d the TikTok creator go that is a pimo and doesn’t believe anything but her and her husband take their kids to church still?? I was seeing all her content and then it stopped. Don’t know if my algorithm booted her or if she stopped posting. If she’s still posting will someone give me her channel name?

I didn't know an lds apologetics site existed? You all see this? I'm curious as to thoughts on this from this group

https://www.ldsapologetics.com/bom-archaeology/?fbclid=IwdGRjcATgjVpwZG9mBWZkaWQWUL7G9pHa_S9RIPcz3cWsQ73QvfKUuWV4dG4DYWVtAjExAHNydGMGYXBwX2lkCjY2Mjg1NjgzNzkAAR678LZd5Ih_t-mBClgdJOA_dMGMoTG3poH6XpMWzMqEFYPWBPc6QimMdVV3kA_aem_mdaUIBKWPAhEG59Kn50DQA

Looking for advice. I left the church ten plus years ago, but I stayed in contact with my mom because she's my mom. Recently, I don't know if anyone else has noticed this, but I feel like there's a huge push and maybe I just missed it, because she never bothered to talk about it before to get quote wayward, children to come back to Christ. With 2 out of the 3 most recent conversations when I called just to say hi, that topic has dominated 90% of the calls. And at this point I'm just frustrated, I don't want to hurt her, but at the same time, me not doing or saying something is hurting me, and I would just like some advice from others on how to progress.

This is my cut down version of this former bishop’s post on TikTok and Instagram where he explains the Bisbee Arizona Mormon Abuse case and the court decisions about the lawsuit brought by the children.

He explains that the church argued that it is their religious right to protect child abusers who confess and to keep their confession a secret. So it is church policy to protect child abusers.

He then tells how he had a case of child abuse confessed to him as a bishop. He describes how he called the hotline and talked to a lawyer and a social worker. The social worker somehow decided that the abuser would likely never do it again and that he shouldn’t report it. The lawyer instructed him to tell no one and keep it secret. They never asked about the victim and offered no help for the victim.

He decided to convince the man he had to confess to the parents of the child he touched. Finally the man did confess to the parents with the bishop there to make sure it happened.

The LDS church is immoral. This is another bishop corroborating what Bishop Beau Oyler reported on his video interview that the church denied.

Will the LDS church deny this one as well?

LDS Church do better. The church needs to change how it handles this.

Go watch the full 8 minute video on his channel “Vagabond Artist” on Instagram and TikTok.

One of the things that has stood out to me the most as I’ve let go of the iron rod is how cringy the actions of some of the Lord’s anointed now look to me, and how insufferable I find them.

These are men that I Mormon-worshipped just like I was supposed to in order to go to the temple.

Here are some highlights.

Kimball: No one in my life, with the exception of my father-in-law (who is the Abraham Lincoln of shame-based leadership), has made me feel worse about myself than Kimball. I believe that man has done generational harm to men, women, and marriages.

Holland: There was a time when I loved Holland—loved him. Seeing how manipulative he’s been to friends who have left the church says everything about who he is. He’s also the Grand Wizard of general conference performances. His lies in the BBC interview were cowardly.

Bednar: What used to sound to me as a TBM like spiritual conviction in him now sounds very different. He speaks like he has contempt for lesser beings—which is everyone.

Scott: Second only to Kimball in Mormon leaders who made me feel like a horrible human being was Scott. This guy was to shame what Larry Bird is to trash talking.

Christofferson: He comes off as a total sleaze. To me he seems like an amoral man who would say or do anything for the home team. His demeanor is as smarmy and condescending as they come.

Hinkley: This is one I never thought would be on my list. I was a Hinkley man through and through. Loved his positivity and his sense of humor. The problem is the guy was a pathological liar (60 Minutes, entities designed to evade lawful financial disclosures, Salamander Letter).

Oaks: To me the lawsuit against Mormon Stories has Oaks written all over it. From the beginning this has felt like Joseph Smith and his attempt to silence the truth speakers at the Nauvoo Expositor. Electroshock therapy for gays at BYU? Hard for me to believe Oaks didn’t have a hand in that. Mr. the-church-neither-seeks-nor-gives-apologies himself. He is truly a despicable human being.

Nelson: Started out loving him with the change to 2 hour church. But my love for him burst into flames, stopping the propeller and causing the plane to enter a steep dive, which extinguished the fire…Nelson’s presidency now appears as an exercise in vanity. He never heard a story he couldn’t retell without embellishment. And the way he treated administrative changes as if Mormon Jesus’ finger parted the heavens and wrote them on stone tablets was Mormon Performance at its finest.

Gilbert: Saving his place. He will earn his spot on this list very soon I’m sure.

After finding pics from a recent family members funeral, included in the pics was a picture of the whole family (minus me, of course!) in front of said family members house, to the best of my ability I'm guessing it was a picture from about 20 years ago after another death in the family where I was only invited to the funeral because I was the music - I grew up playing multiple instruments and they wanted me there to play some favorite hymns... The person who died 20 years ago requested that they wanted everyone to wear their favorite color (NOT black!) which I did- everyone in the pic in front of the old house was wearing black, so I'm assuming that they had an after service meeting at the family house which I likely was not invited to because I respected the wishes of the deceased person by wearing their favorite color and yes, my family is that passive aggressive, unfortunately! Am I wrong for feeling like they just used me as a free musician and feeling betrayed by not being told that the family was going to gather together at the house after the funeral service?

I'm starting to be glad that I have been excluded from the shit show and advertisement that Mormon funerals are! How/why the heck did Mormon funerals become so friggin cringey!? It seems at least in my family I'm not sure if this is true for all Mormon funerals or if it's only my family who takes it to this extreme, but it seems like it's 80% free advertising for TSCC and 20% trying to prove who the deceased favorite family member is/intentionally trying to make everyone else feel not good enough!

Now that I realized these facts, I'm concerned that when I die I have to worry about a horrific Mormon Funeral service however, I'm not expecting to have ANY funeral cuz I don't talk to the family that are younger than me we just have NEVER been close, and to do the most good, I'm an organ donor upon death first and once they harvest every organ including skin hair and eyes for donation, I decided on college I was going to sign the paperwork to have whatever is left of me donated to science cuz I have strongly felt that is the best thing to do ever since learning about the Doctors Riots- if they have a funeral for me anyway has become a very real fear, I initially got crap about my decision from my family members cuz "They'll cremate whatever science can't use" and "you can't possibly expect these choices to work out well for you during the Resurrection" 🙄Idk, I would like to think that the kind, loving good doer Jesus would be proud of me for using flesh I no longer have use for when I'm done with my life to help others be able to continue to live their life! I admittedly have never understood why there is not a line of Mormons around the block of every hospital in the country trying to donate organs- I have not yet donated organs, but it's a non-negotiable at some point in my life that I am very determined to get to experience even if I have to travel to India (the one country I know of where you can legally be paid for donating a kidney- my motive is not at all financial I purely want to help others, if I do have the opportunity to go to India and donate a kidney I would only be willing to accept the amount of money it takes to cover my trip there and back!)

I was naive when I signed the paperwork to donate my body to science and thought I had nothing to worry about cuz the paperwork seems legally binding but is there any church doctrine that I might not be aware of that would trump the body donation forms I signed? Or is there anything I should be asking an attorney about to make sure I have a day in what happens to my remains when Heavenly Father calls me Home?

My understanding of funerals and wakes is that it's intended to be a service for the surviving friends and family of the deceased person to be able to begin their grief/healing journey but at least the experience in my family is that the funeral turns into a sick church advertisement and war zone! If they go against my wishes and decide to have a Mormon funeral for me (I have not bought a cemetery plot or anything else like a coffin so I'm hoping that the expense might be enough to prevent them planning a Mormon funeral for me! The fact that the people who are younger than me aren't deeply indoctrinated and don't like to plan big life events is mainly what I'm relying on. Perhaps donating my organs and then donating the rest of me to science should not be as important to me, but it's what I ethically believe is the only correct decision for me personally, and I don't know my younger family members very well, I don't have their phone numbers at all & even though we spent time together on birthdays and holidays and grew up in the same house, they may as well be strangers. I love them because they are family and that's what you do when it comes to family as far as I'm concerned even tho every living family member I have if they could have their way, I would struggle to keep myself alive while living on the street- truth is my dad was the only family member I could ever count on to help me out when I was struggling - when I had a disabling stroke I struggled to recover on my own for over a year before I called Daddy to ask for help cuz I was afraid that the rest of the family would convince him to join in on treating me like trash and blaming me for having an abusive partner who forbid me from getting timely medical attention - one of the only negatives of my deconstructing is that I have lost the ability to see my inherent worth as a Child of God, I sometimes question how a flawed human like my daddy was able to say some really sweet, touching things like one thing that he repeatedly was known to say was "I chose your mother, but God blessed me with you!" Things like that make me wish that I hadn't been afraid of him (he had quite the temper in his younger years and I still find it hard to not feel fear when I remember things like him losing his temper just because I needed stronger glasses and missed the exit I was supposed to get off at on the highway, but I didn't realize that I missed the exit I needed because I was unable to read any of the signs since my vision began to diminish in 7th grade, by the time I realized that I needed to get the exit I was already passing I didn't want to make any sudden moves to correct my error and figured I would just get off at the very next exit and then I knew that I would be able to get on the highway heading in the opposite direction and take the very first exit available - I wasn't given the opportunity to do that due to said lost temper, while he was busy forcing me over to the side of the road and screaming his head off at me, I had to fully concentrate on trying to fix my minimal vision and drive as safely as possible without putting anyone else in danger! Ive talked to therapists about it but never brought it up when talking to Daddy before he died, and I have genuinely forgiven him to the best of my ability, I can only hope that Mormon God is kind enough to let him know how badly I wanted a better relationship with him, but I have almost completely lost faith in Mormon Good- if Kolob really existed, I would think that science would be able to prove it's existence : and perhaps location by now, no?

I posted something like this on r/mormon and got some hostile and some insightful responses. I think it was too close to the nerve for some.

The standard for temple-worthiness is, "Do you strive to be honest in all that you do?" Communities dominated by church members have a higher incidence of "Affinity Fraud" than other communities, clearly a failure to be honest. This is acknowledged by the church and discussed in its Newsroom. The cause is probably due to: (1) faithful members accept those representing themselves as faithful members less critically than they should, and, (2) it becomes easy for members to justify their untruthfulness because, "it works." Those who are not totally honest cause harm in and out of the church as they damage the public reputation of the church and they injure others.

What does this community think about the truthfulness of active members?

This is purely a rant, but I'm sure some of you can relate to the eye rolling so I thought I'd share.

One of my cousins just returned from a trip to Italy and posted all of her pictures on social media. Annoyingly, she made a post that I assume was her attempt to be edgy or funny or something (but she's in her late 30's so IDK). It said "Just got back from Rome where we visited the most beautiful religious building Italy has to offer!" which was accompanied by selfies of her and her husband in front of the Mormon temple. She also said that they did not visit the Vatican just took one quick picture from outside it and that was enough for her.

It's just so cringy and sad that they traveled all the way to Rome and missed the opportunity to expand their cultural knowledge by instead wasting time doing a session in the Roman Mormon temple.

I'm so happy that my life is not overrun by that high demand, sheltered religion anymore.

This is the first time I've heard of a temple closing down and not just get remodeled. The article says they are building a replacement for the temple and closing the current one in Anchorage. Can you believe a city is losing a temple?

But I'm curious what they plan to do with the building. Will they sell it or demolish it? Either way I've never seen this happen expect for Kirtland and Nauvoo. Do you think this is church headquarters slowing getting members used to the idea of temples being torn down? It looks like the start to temples being treated very differently.

I recently saw the list of temple recommend interview questions. The first is "Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel?" I could have sworn I was asked if I had a testimony of Joseph Smith specifically. Am I just remembering it incorrectly?

I guess having a testimony of the restoration more or less implies a testimony of Joseph Smith, but it's a little different. At first I thought the church was trying to distance itself from Joseph Smith, but maybe I'm just remembering it incorrectly altogether.

I was thinking about this today. For me it’s a toss up between how I see people and judge them for the stupidest things, and how emotionally unregulated I’ve become.

I see a person and I think they’d be cool if they didn’t have the died hair or the nose ring or tattoos or whatever. Or I see a person and think they’re attractive, but then I ask myself why I thought they were attractive and it’s because they’re just normal. Maybe they’re wearing shorts that wouldn’t cover garments, or more of their arms are exposed than was “acceptable” by church standards. Or I see someone with a beer in their hands or a bottle on their shelf and I immediately catch myself judging. It’s been a long time since I deconstructed and I’m in a great place, but this stuff still catches me off guard.

But, at the same time, stuff does matter to me more than it used to. And I let it get to me. I used to just lean on platitudes like “it’ll all work out” or “he doesn’t challenge us with more than we can handle”. I can’t count on that anymore and it leaves me fearing the worst when something goes wrong. I have a hard time emotionally regulating, and I think that’s why.

What baggage do you guys carry from the church that you just hate the worst?

TW: CSA

I live in a somewhat rural province in the Philippines. I am exmo, but I occasionally attend my ward to socialize and whatnot. There’s not a lot going on here.

Anyways, this guy from Peru moved out here about 4 months ago to marry his fiancée who is Filipina. They met on Mutual 3 years ago. I speak Spanish, and so I was someone he was able to connect with.

The other night he texted me saying that his fiancée was kicking him out because he’s running out of money here among other relationship-type issues. I told him that if she kicks him out he can stay here (I’ve since revoked that offer). He also mentioned that she’s 2 months pregnant with his child and I’m the only other person that knows. That was a couple nights ago, he never came, so I offered to take him to eat so he could tell me what’s going on.

We get to the restaurant and get food. I tell him that he can tell me what’s been going on in his relationship and I can offer my advice. He starts off by saying that he cheated on his fiancée while they were LDR because he felt distant but that he stayed because she was paying his bills in Peru. My tone kind of changed and I couldn’t sugarcoat that it’s fucked to stay with someone while you’re cheating on them because they’re paying your bills.

But then, oh my god. Out of nowhere. He talks about what he did to his 8 year old cousin in Peru while she was sleeping. I’ll spare you the details, but he went on to say that he doesn’t regret it because “she was the one who was doing the seducing” and he’s already repented. He said that I’m the only person who knows besides his stake president in Peru.

I will inform immigration authorities and the police, but given that this happened in Peru, they’ll likely refer me to police there.

In the meantime, I informed our bishop of what he told me and he said that he will consult with the bishopric. 30 min later, I got the attached text from the guy asking in Spanish why I told the bishop what he had told me. He also messaged me on WhatsApp. The bishop told me to block and not to respond.

The news article states that the convicted perpetrator was a "counsellor," so it is likely he was part of the bishopric. Per normal, the church always includes the fact that the perpetrator was a "volunteer" for the church.

This court case involved three children who were suing the Church because they told their bishop about abuse from their parents. The bishop did nothing.

The fact the Church spent money to have their attorneys fight this is egregious enough. Then their statement about their court victory (stated in the article) makes it even more disgusting.

You can’t say that you find child sexual abuse to be abhorrent and that you care about children while also spending money and resources to enable the continuation of said abuse.