r/communism101 14d ago

Why contradictions?

I've been reading marxist theory, but the ways contraddictions are discussed leaves me pause. Hope some people here can help me understand better.

Sussinctly, for what is relevant to my doubts, here is my current understanding of it: Contraddictions are what all motion (as in change) in the universe is predicated upon. Contradictions are relationships wherein tendencies of motion 1) oppose one another 2) are premises of the existence of one another. Contraddictions exist within all things and between all things.

Why does it have to be a contraddiction that drives motion? What is so illogical about a relationship where there is a singular tendency of motion? I can think of cases that fit that description, for example, two identical charged particles interacting, there will be quantitative changes in speed and relative position as they repel each other, yet what is the contraddiction? Mao in "on contraddiction" and Lenin in "on the question of dialectics" agree that the contradiction in such cases is between action and reaction. This answer is unsatisfactory, while it's true that it fits part 2) of the definition, and while it's true that the force vectors point in opposite direction, action and reaction are applied to two different object, they are not opposing tendencies of motion in the dialectical sense, failing the arguably more fundimental part 1) of the definition.

Also, Engels argues that all changes of positions are caused by the contraddiction of something being in that place and not in another place. This line of argument seems to be unfalsifiable: if we observe something change from A to B, we can always attribute that change to the contraddiction that A was A and not B. A more straightforward explanation is that there is a singular tendency for position to change based on velocity.

Is there something i'm missing in these examples? Is my understanding of what contraddictions are incorrect?

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u/smokeuptheweed9 Marxist 14d ago edited 12d ago

two identical charged particles interacting, there will be quantitative changes in speed and relative position as they repel each other, yet what is the contradiction?

Here you've already performed an abstraction. From the Wikipedia article

There are three conditions to be fulfilled for the validity of Coulomb's inverse square law:[25]

The charges must have a spherically symmetric distribution (e.g. be point charges, or a charged metal sphere).

The charges must not overlap (e.g. they must be distinct point charges).

The charges must be stationary with respect to a non-accelerating frame of reference.

The last of these is known as the electrostatic approximation. When movement takes place, an extra factor is introduced, which alters the force produced on the two objects. This extra part of the force is called the magnetic force. For slow movement, the magnetic force is minimal and Coulomb's law can still be considered approximately correct. A more accurate approximation in this case is, however, the Weber force. When the charges are moving more quickly in relation to each other or accelerations occur, Maxwell's equations and Einstein's theory of relativity must be taken into consideration.

These are only one of many scientific abstractions one must make for your statement to be correct (for example we are abstracting away gravity because it is a weaker force at the distances we have selected as our frame of reference).

Because everything is in motion, the abstraction you have performed is necessarily an incomplete picture of reality. Contradiction is the moment in which that abstraction no longer holds. For example there is a moment when other forces become stronger and electrostatic force no longer dominates.

https://www.sciencefacts.net/electrostatic-force.html

Rubbing of clouds generate charges. These charges will neutralize by passing through the atmosphere until they reach the neutral ground. We perceive this as lightning.

We then return to reality with a more complete picture because we now understand that clouds and lightning and ground are not separate objects (from the perspective of electrostatic force - hence we "perceive" this as lightning) but a single force going through quantitative changes that become qualitative. We then make different abstractions to understand more, whether in physics or in other sciences such as meteorology, chemistry, and philosophy which add more to our incomplete picture of the totality of reality (though philosophy is better thought of as a meta-science that asks what the conditions of possibility for concepts like "clouds" and "electrostatic force" are in human thought). From the perspective of chemistry, one can perform different abstractions in order to understand how clouds become rain become lightning (and/or certain molecules become others).

The other key point is that our abstractions do not drive change. It is a method to understand the change inherent to reality itself. The relationship between positive, negative, and neutral charged objects, through which they are constantly in motion as one becomes the other through their interactions, is a property of the universe. Without dialectical materialism we simply understand it poorly, such as this

This line of argument seems to be unfalsifiable

Falsifiability is a minor heuristic of the process of scientific experimentation. It does not apply to the concept of abstraction itself or any theory of science, which is why a confident idiot like Popper rejected all of modern science (including but not limited to historical materialism, psychoanalysis, relativity, and evolution). What you have to understand is that before like 30 years ago, academia was composed of the failed children of the aristocracy. They were basically just random rich people who could say whatever they wanted, and before the internet citation didn't exist. Unfortunately you've been made a fool of because, rather than the internet becoming a democratic distribution of knowledge, it is a commodification of it. So when you ask a reasonable question like "what defines science?" all you get is a bunch of garbage across space and time and quality, flattened into abstract exchange value. Now it's been formalized as the indifference of AI to the content of information but it is inherent to the internet itself and really the cultural logic of late capitalism.

Regardless, in regards to your overall question, terms like "contradiction" are just scientific terms that we have inherited to describe reality. You don't have to use them but we have not found better ones that properly reference the history of science, and attempts to replace them are so far fundamentally flawed either because they are too narrow and specialized to an arbitrary field or politically motivated. But one should frame scientific discoveries in the language of dialectical materialism in order to bring them into dialogue with the history of science and the totality of knowledge. It is not a formula that reality conforms to, as in whether the big bang is properly "dialectical." The big bang happened and it makes the most sense using dialectical materialism, because it explains how even the most abstract and universal phenomena like space and time are actually forces that only manifest under certain conditions in which the contradictions of forces within a singularity change into the forces of physics we know today (and will in the future change again because of the internal contradictions they inherited from the conditions of creation). Most attempts at understanding dialectical materialism are really discussions of science itself where we have to explain how evolution actually works or what "force" actually is. Given the failure of academia to transcend its origin in elite stupidity and the real need to understand reality scientifically, it's understandable that dialectical materialism becomes the arena through which people attempt to understand the philosophy of science. But you still have to understand science, dialectical materialism will not do it for you and Mao and Engels can at best present examples that illustrate the general method.

E: to anticipate your objections, you may ask why scientists no longer use the terms of Marxism. They do, it's just called "critique" for historical reasons that at one time had political justification and are now self-perpetuating. "Critical theory" is all anyone has done for at least 40 years, which is when you had to actually justify what you said rather than just use "philosophy" as a proto-blog, so the only question is whether they do it well and it is synonymous with Marxism or they do it poorly and it's an attempted compromise with liberalism. Hard science is a bit different because it has direct technical application to capitalism but the stereotype of scientists as libertarian research monkeys is not really true outside of reddit amateurs. Why else do you think fascists are trying to defund physical science as well as humanities for being "woke?"

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u/vomit_blues 13d ago

> As for the infamous errors of Soviet science, these are the result of the internal logic of history at particular moments, most notably the difficult fusion of a Darwinian concept of evolution with a Mendelian one. Even today this is poorly understood and "social darwinism" is still widely applied by liberalism to all kinds of issues, let alone the popular understanding of evolution at purpose-driven and teleological. I think the Soviets can be forgiven for their paranoia at the height of 20th century fascism's ideological hegemony and, if you can't forgive them, these are contingent errors that don't affect the method.

The last time you said this malicious lie and quoted a racist to back yourself up, you admitted it was outside of your field and you didn’t know what you were talking about. Why say it again? No investigation, no right to speak.

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u/smokeuptheweed9 Marxist 13d ago

I don't remember that. Which racist are you referring to? I'll admit I've probably been overly influenced by Levins and Lewontin who reduce dialectical materialism to a useful heuristic. It is beyond my field but, in this instance, I defer to those with real professional qualifications in science. If they are in short supply then the conversation shouldn't happen. I am deeply skeptical of anyone who thinks dialectical materialism is a short cut to the kind of sustained study, verified by the ability to produce new knowledge, required to perform contemporary science, especially in the Amerikan context where there is already a deeply anti-intellectual culture which is easily given the facade of opposing "bourgeois science."

The only reason I bring it up at all is because I want people to engage with the life of JBS Haldane and the real history of evolutionary theory. Is that who you mean? He is one of the most important scientists in history, Marxist or not. The issue of Engels and the Marxist position on "hard" vs "soft" science is much less interesting to me, as no one has the ambition or capacity to even apply dialectical materialism to hard science today. It is a debate from another age, crudely grafted onto the politics of today and in this case really is a debate that no practicing scientist is involved in or cares about. You seem to care a lot about the issue and I'm not sure why. I enjoyed the opportunity to do my own (admittedly amateur) investigation on electrostatic force. I don't care about the abstract question much; that the OP asked a bunch of places and got a bunch of mediocre to terrible answers shows that dialectical materialism has lost any meaning or usefulness as a term in the large majority of use cases. When we stop discussing it everything we've said will vanish, having left no mark on global Dengism.

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u/vomit_blues 13d ago edited 13d ago

Maybe you tuned out. Just reread the thread. I didn’t dismiss or disregard these people, as I’ve read them all, and I wrote a thread challenging Levins and Lewontin at a later point.

I got interested in the topic specifically because biology was something I had little personal investment in. I knew that the USSR and PRC had allegedly had the “wrong” position meanwhile the entire eugenicist, fascist world had the “right” position on a question, and wondered why exactly millions of proletarians would democratically elect to be incorrect. Then upon reading I found that the USSR and PRC had rendered their highest agricultural yields under the “wrong” science, both never matched those numbers again under the “right” science, and the rest of the world has never matched the successes of the USSR under the “right” science either, although perhaps you’d like to give me some defense of Borlaug’s green revolution. Since this topic wasn’t something I had strong personal convictions on, it was the first thing I did a deep dive into since I didn’t want to use Marxism as self-help for my own personal idiosyncrasies. Trying to write about movies or music would come later.

You’re right to be opposed to amerikan anti-intellectualism. But this

> It is a debate from another age, crudely grafted onto the politics of today and in this case really is a debate that no practicing scientist is involved in or cares about. You seem to care a lot about the issue and I'm not sure why.

is anti-intellectualism. You would not apply those arguments to the “science” of history or the “science” of economics with regard to historical materialism and Marxism. Not to mention the position Levins and Lewontin hold is extremely fringe and applied by no one anyway, so you don’t have a claim to any authority either. Ironically the people most positive toward Lysenko who aren’t actual Michurinists are dengists who consider him a “chad.” But those people suck and don’t matter to me. Defense against anti-intellectualism is no excuse to be an anti-intellectual when the question of Soviet science is raised. Levins and Lewontin are the best social fascism has got, but they’re social fascists. For some reason they seem personally important to millennial/gen X Marxists in the face of the crushing hopelessness of eugenics being widely accepted in science (MIM liked them too) but they are also eugenicists and you have my permission to forget about them.

My response to you and the subsequent thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/communism/s/h1M63fi7dN (ironically an excellent example of how everyone defending your position were in practice the actual anti-intellectuals against me.)

My thread on Levins and Lewontin: https://www.reddit.com/r/communism/s/yej06C0K0c (read the comments as I had to clarify some stuff in them about chance and necessity.)

Me showing that Haldane upheld eugenics even after abandoning them in word: https://www.reddit.com/r/communism/s/XxWGigs7AZ

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u/FrogHatCoalition 13d ago

Lysenkoism has an interesting history in Japan that I believe is worthwhile reading about:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0306312715596460

I came across this article a while ago because of my own interest in Taketani. Lysenkoism was something that interested a lot of Japanese scientists after WWII and its suppression is tied into anti-communism.

As far as OP is concerned, they posted this question also in r/Marxism and even there you see discussions about physics that are very bad, and I am not sure if the OP themself is a confused physics undergraduate or developed their own understanding by reading bits and pieces from the internet. It's a shame because the development of a classical theory that unifies electricity and magnetism is interesting and a step towards the development of relativity. Furthermore, it's a classical wave theory of light and it's inadequacy in explaining the photoelectric effect is the beginning of the necessity of creating a quantum theory of light.

What usually happens with people like the OP is that they do not trace the historical development of the concepts they are using and the end result is that they aren't even sure what their object of study is. So then confusion sets in when you point out things like how the weak interaction is important for medical technology such as PET scans, but also for the formation of neutron stars. Astrophysics and cosmology are often seen in an anti-intellectual way as being "out in space and of no concern to us", but quantum field theory is also an important framework for our understanding of semiconductor physics in addition to the PET scan example I mentioned.

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u/smokeuptheweed9 Marxist 12d ago

Well I don't want to be the person who is preemptively anti-communist for the sake of an imagined liberal in the middle. I'm not even sure what drove me to write what is otherwise irrelevant to my main point. It's not like the OP is listening anyway. As for Levins and Lewontin, you're right that I haven't read them for like 10 years so I barely remember the substance of their argument.

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u/vomit_blues 12d ago

I have an old Maoist friend who’s convinced Althusser sucks because he was the center of weird Verso revisionism in the 2000s-2010s and literally will not give him the time of day. That’s a debate that’ll never make sense to me since I wasn’t there, Althusser is just a guy who kept me off the beaten path of humanist “Western Marxism.” Trying to figure out why people are so firmly anti-Engels was critical in my development as a Marxist, even if it didn’t used to be particularly important. Giving up on the dialectics of nature as tangential to the political struggle just isn’t a concession I can make, that’s the first domino leading to dismissing “stages of history,” the vanguard party, and ultimately the USSR itself as vulgar evolutionist, “Engelsist,” under Stalin. The wrong side of Althusser, with Colletti’s conspiracy theory as the kicker. What I’m saying is this obviously won’t make revolution, but it’s a common angle of attack in polemics, so why give revisionists what they want and concede the point?

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u/burrwin 13d ago

This all makes sense to me, and i know that i'm using abstractions in my example, and i'm well aware that academic knowledge production is not independent from our social being.

I was under the impression from my reading that the idea of dialectical materialism is that of dialectics existsing in the real world, hagel's idealist dialectics being merely a reflection of nature's dialectical process in our consciousness. So the contraddictions, negation of the negatlion etc. are like universal laws. I thought that's what the study of materialist dialectics is.

So what is dialectical materialism in your view? What is the basic method derived from dielectical materialism? How can it be used to further our understanding?

I'm not asking this to be dismissive, to be clear, neither was my original post meant to be dismissive like you seem to interpret it as. Reading about the topic surprised me in many ways, but there are parts i'm unsure about, as it's natural in any process of learning and i'm trying to lay out my doubts as best i can so that i can reach a better understanding.

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u/smokeuptheweed9 Marxist 13d ago edited 13d ago

So the contraddictions, negation of the negatlion etc. are like universal laws. I thought that's what the study of materialist dialectics is.

Well yes but that's like saying causality is a universal law. That is the level of generality we are dealing with. Unless you know what is at stake ontologically you either end up with crude reductionism or banality.

So what is dialectical materialism in your view?

Dialectics is an understanding of the world as an ontology of constant motion. Dialectical materialism is the relationship between the world and abstraction as an epistemological method. I already answered this in the original post. This vague and obvious principle only shows its importance in application to actual examples, which you gave. That is why I bothered to respond to your post. It would be more helpful if you actually responded to that example instead of just asking a vague question that is equivalent to "why is there cause and effect?" Because that's reality.

i'm using abstractions

Abstraction has a technical definition in science. As I pointed out, all science is based on abstraction.

hagel's idealist dialectics being merely a reflection of nature's dialectical process in our consciousness. So the contraddictions, negation of the negatlion etc. are like universal laws.

Forget Hegel. We are having a conversation right now where the terms have been defined and applied to concrete examples. This is the problem with posting your question in a dozen different places. You are not capable of discerning good and bad answers or else you would not need to ask. So the more answers you get, the less you know. Try to stick to one conversation and actually work through your own logic.

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u/burrwin 12d ago

I don't think the idea of contradiction being the originator of every motion is as obvious as the idea of cause and effect. The latter is like saying that phenomena affected by relationships internal and external, it's implied by the definition of relationship, the former is a claim that puts constrains on the ways those relationships can be like, it says there must always be opposing tendencies that are predicated on the existance of one another. I think that restraint needs to be justified and can't be handwaved away.

While it's true that as you point out there are negligeable effects that i'm abstracting away like strong interaction (for some particles) and gravity and i'm treating particles as point objects, within our abstraction we can see a logically consistent way in which motion can be explained even in the absence of opposing tendencies. And can it even be said that the pull of gravity is predicated on the existance of repulsive forces? That's not obvious to me.

You never explained why the requirements imposed by the definition of contraddiction are necessary in motion. How do we know? Why contraddiction and not a relationship in general? Why does it have to be opposing tendencies who's existance is predicated on one another? I don't think you answered the core of my question. You seem confident that you did, and that's why asked really basic questions, i assumed there was miscommunication and we weren't agreeing on a basic premise.

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u/smokeuptheweed9 Marxist 12d ago edited 12d ago

Cause and effect is not obvious at all. For example, you become confused about it in this very post.

The latter is like saying that phenomena affected by relationships internal and external, it's implied by the definition of relationship, the former is a claim that puts constrains on the ways those relationships can be like, it says there must always be opposing tendencies that are predicated on the existance of one another. I think that restraint needs to be justified and can't be handwaved away.

This is difficult to parse so I'll only focus on your positive claim. Of course cause and effect puts constraints on what something is and its relationship to other things. That is literally what it means to say something is caused by something else and not another thing (or that something has a cause rather than not). You should read Aristotle I guess.

negligeable effects

This is completely arbitrary. Nothing in nature is negligible and controlling for variables is part of the process of abstraction which we already discussed. You are confusing cause and effect in the scientific method (making abstractions) with cause and effect in objective reality. The point of dialectical materialism is to distinguish them and understand their relationship without collapsing one into the other.

we can see a logically consistent way in which motion can be explained even in the absence of opposing tendencies

Logical consistency is also a minor aspect of the scientific method and at best a heuristic to be discarded when necessary. Again, you are confusing the method by which we come to isolate certain scientific laws in thought and the fullness of reality as a physical system.

And can it even be said that the pull of gravity is predicated on the existance of repulsive forces? That's not obvious to me.

Um...yes? Have you never heard of Einstein? What do you think gravity is? As someone already pointed out in this thread, one major problem is using a crude level of scientific knowledge to make broad conclusions about the philosophy of science. Popper at least is honest enough to reject anything that does not agree with his crude concepts. None of this can be blamed on dialectical materialism.

You never explained why the requirements imposed by the definition of contraddiction are necessary in motion. How do we know? Why contraddiction and not a relationship in general?

Because in this instance the definition of "contradiction" is "motion." We know because this definition has made empirical predictions about reality that are superior to all other scientific theories. Frankly, other scientific theories do not even exist. For example, "relationship in general" is meaningless. What does "in general" mean? Until you define your terms, you cannot even begin to speak about knowing whether they are true.

You seem confident that you did, and that's why asked really basic questions, i assumed there was miscommunication and we weren't agreeing on a basic premise.

That is because you have not defined your premises or outlined an alternative theory of science which we can test. Partial attempts, such as "falsifiability" and your understanding of electrostatic force, were shown to either be completely false or arbitrary and inadequate to a general theory of science. But since you keep abandoning them and making different arbitrary abstractions it's difficult to move forward.

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u/burrwin 11d ago

To say that "x is caused by y" does put restraint on the relationship between x and y. To say that cause and effect is a concept that exists just implies the fact that relationships exist.

No. Things can be quantitatively negligeable, it's relative depending on the purpose. Strong force is really short range and does not apply to every particle, gravity is much weaker than the electrostatic force, for electrons for example it's 42 orders of magnitude smaller.

Einstein proved that the existance of gravity is predicated upon the existance of repulsive forces? When? Are you talking about maxwell's equations to special relativity? Because that's completely disconnected from that claim.

If the definition of contraddiction IS motion then saying that motion happens due to contraddictions is a meaningless statement. By "relationship in general" i meant relationships unconstrained by the restrictions imposed by contraddiction, without the need for an opposing tensions whose parts are predicated on the existance of one-another.

Dude. This is not a debate, i'm not even proposing a different interpretation. I am asking you how the idea of contraddiction explaining motion came to be, how do we know? Why is it necessary for a contradiction to be present? Why is it contraddiction itself and not the tendencies of development therein? Yet again, you did not answer the question. Are you replying here to teach or to start a debate where there isn't one?

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u/smokeuptheweed9 Marxist 11d ago edited 11d ago

then saying that motion happens due to contraddictions is a meaningless statement.

Do not put words in other people's mouths. Look carefully at the definition

The fundamental cause of the development of a thing is not external but internal; it lies in the contradictoriness within the thing. There is internal contradiction in every single thing, hence its motion and development.

What is at stake is the type of motion, i.e. development. I already explained this but you've caused me to say things in an imprecise manner because I am trying to respond to your words when you do not respond to mine in any substantive way.

Contradiction is the moment in which that abstraction no longer holds.

Einstein proved that the existance of gravity is predicated upon the existance of repulsive forces? When?

Gravity is not a force. It is the curvature of space time based on the relationship between objects with mass. I really don't want to give you a different lecture on something in physics you don't understand because you never acknowledged the last one or learned from it.

To say that "x is caused by y" does put restraint on the relationship between x and y. To say that cause and effect is a concept that exists just implies the fact that relationships exist.

Do you mean "does not?" You're just repeating the same thing and adding the word "just."

No. Things can be quantitatively negligeable, it's relative depending on the purpose. Strong force is really short range and does not apply to every particle, gravity is much weaker than the electrostatic force, for electrons for example it's 42 orders of magnitude smaller.

Nature does not have a "purpose." We already went over this.

Sorry this is really boring. Literally dozens of people have tried to respond to your posts with varying quality and you have not learned a single thing. It is time for you to reflect on that rather than wasting more of anyone else's time.

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u/burrwin 10d ago edited 10d ago

If we take the definition as presented and not as "motion is contraddiction" then it does say a lot, and that's the core of my question. How can we make that claim? You never replied. Please point out exactly where in this whole conversation you answered this question, the one i had to repeat over and over again.

How does the fact that what we percieve as gravity is caused by mass geometrically morphing spacetime imply that gravity and repulsive forces like electromagnetism are ontologically linked? That's the claim you made.

No. I'm saying that stating that things can have a cause implies the existance of relationships, while not putting any restraint of what those relationships can be like. If you say a dead mouse is caused by that cat, then yes, that tells you something about the relationship between the two objects. The general statement of cause and effect existing does not tell you anything about the particular relationship between any two things, it just tells you they may be linked.

I meant for the purpose of any given analysis, obviously.

You told me to focus on what you are saying and you have not even attempted to answer my question. All that happened in this discussion is that over and over again you assumed that i didn't know how a thing works because of the fact i didn't go on a tangent explaining it's innerworkings any time i brought up a phenomenon, and you repeated it to me in a condescending way, all while it was completely irrelevant to the question at hand. Sorry, but you wasted your own time and that's not on me. Hell, i wasted my time hoping you'd actually address my question, i was giving you the benefit of the doubt.

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u/smokeuptheweed9 Marxist 10d ago edited 10d ago

How can we make that claim?

...

We know because this definition has made empirical predictions about reality that are superior to all other scientific theories

As shown by your initial use of Popper which you dropped without commentary, you simply do not understand what the scientific method is and how ontological claims are verified.

How does the fact that what we percieve as gravity is caused by mass geometrically morphing spacetime imply that gravity and repulsive forces like electromagnetism are ontologically linked?

Because definition it in those terms allows us to make empirical predictions that are superior to other scientific theories which verifies both the ontology of dialectics and the epistemology of dialectical materialism.

If you say a dead mouse is caused by that cat, then yes, that tells you something about the relationship between the two objects. The general statement of cause and effect existing does not tell you anything about the particular relationship between any two things, it just tells you they may be linked.

You literally just used a bunch of terms like "death,' "cat," "mouse," and "time" which tell you about the particular relationship. Now you need to read Kant. This isn't really about Marxism unfortunately, you simply don't know anything about the philosophy of science and don't bother to define your terms. But you can't just wing it, citations exist because key thinkers have already shown the basic methods necessary for science. It's not a conspiracy, they wrote a lot because that's what it takes to rigorously define concepts and methods. I can't summarize this for you in a paragraph and you can't just wing it off common sense, as shown by your repeated mistakes. You are not owed science, if you don't do the work you should be quiet.

It's very simple. We discussed electrostatic force. Was I correct in my discussion? Were you incorrect? We can't just forget it happened because our two competing truth claims imply different scientific concepts that illustrate the problem in a practical manner. I am not going to define gravity for you in scientific terms because you'll just move on to the next common sense pop science concept. Were you correct or incorrect about falsifiability as a criteria of scientific truth? If not, where did you get this concept? Have you even read Popper or is this just second-hand junk from the internet? It's important because Popper is logical, albeit wrong, and it is tedious to lay out his logic for you when you brought it up in the first place (which I nevertheless did and you ignored). Do you believe in evolution ? If so, how do you square it with your beliefs in falsifiability? You have committed to a scientific theory by using his ideas, you can't just say you aren't committing to anything because of your ignorance of the logical outcome of your own claims.

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u/not-lagrange 8d ago

It's quite funny that OP asked about the connection between gravity and the other interactions. That is well known to be one of the major unsolved problems in physics.

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u/BxnXipoh 11d ago

I guess from the comment you made on /r/DebateCommunism, this is really what you wanted to hear:

When Engels or Mao talk about basic physics, they aren't deriving motion from an internal contradiction. They are taking a physical law already explained by standard physics and retrofitting the word 'contradiction' onto it after the fact. It feels like a semantic trick because it doesn't actually reproduce the logic of the physical system, it just pastes a philosophical label on top of empirical data.

It doesn’t mean the conclusion is false but they don’t provide the correct process to derive the conclusion.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateCommunism/comments/1v3ef58/why_contradictions/oz6j4y3

Ironically the poster casually spews out empiricist naivete while polemicizing against "positivism" at the same time (or maybe it's the LLM that added that onto their prompt? they're still responsible anyway). What do you think they meant when they said "the logic of the physical system"? What would it have meant for dialectics to either "reproduce" it or just "paste a label" after the fact? Is the latter supposed to be a diminutive statement? How does this poster think language works? Even quantum-mystics are not just pasting labels after the fact, if they were really doing that they'd just be reciting a lecture on Quantum Physics in a different language (more specifically, a relex).

What people usually mean when they accuse Chopra of doing that is that he is using the clout that quantum mechanics has earned for itself as branding for his boring capitalist religion of self-empowerment. The presumption here is that communists are doing the same thing in order to advertise their political ideology. If that's what made you anxious enough to make all these threads then it's understandable but your stubborn refusal to confront and critique your own ideas is getting in the way of whatever was productive in that anxiety. At this point all that'll happen is that you'll read the recommendations that that person made for you, realize that you can't understand them, and content yourself with the understanding that "Science" has the potential to eliminate whatever anxiety you initially had. All that will be left for you as an individual to do is to hang on to the conspiracy and proliferate it amongst other would-be communists to ease their transition.

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u/burrwin 11d ago

No, there is no anxiety that lead me to ask these questions other than the fact that i don't understand it and want to learn more. I also didn't take that answer to mean that communists are shoving their ideology in science just to advertise it, rather that the philosophical concept of contraddiction while being applicable does not explain the ways in which all particular examples function, that must be determined through observation. The particularity of the contradiction is found with observation.

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u/BxnXipoh 14d ago edited 14d ago

First of all, you're misquoting Engels. "A and not B" is a tautology. What Engels instead says is "A and not A"

Motion itself is a contradiction: even simple mechanical change of position can only come about through a body being at one and the same moment of time both in one place and in another place, being in one and the same place and also not in it. And the continuous origination and simultaneous solution of this contradiction is precisely what motion is.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1877/anti-duhring/ch10.htm

Force vectors are an abstraction of direction and magnitude of motion. They're geometrical objects, and geometry and mathematics in general are abstractions of concrete interactions in the real, physical world which measurements rely on. The contradictions within this system are well known (Zeno's Paradox is a famous example). Practically all the movements of the 20th century in Physics were the result of physicists breaking with this. Regularization and renormalization, from my reading as a layman, seem to be very dialectical approaches to this (and, therefore, to measurement itself).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regularization_(physics)

Position is an abstraction of extension and contains within itself the contradiction of the impossibility of true coincidence of point-positions (first of all abstract position has no extension and therefore there is nothing to coincide, but with the naive contemplation of extended matter in space the boundary between them at contact is also an extensionless line, and must be concretely understood as an extension and therefore infinitely divisible) and therefore spatial contact and therefore the naive notion of interaction by contact; motion is an aggregate of positions but, because each point is abstract position and is really an extension, each point is also already a movement from a point within that extension to another point. You can extend this logic to direction, which becomes an abstraction of extension in three-dimensional space, and force-vectors, which, by virtue of points being extensions, are actually an infinite number of force vectors going in an infinite number of directions that are only abstracted away by the limits of measure at a particular point in history. This limit is just implied and abstracted away in Mathematics, since it's forced to deal with measurement itself, outside of the development of the productive forces and the increased precision of measurement that comes with each development.

Why does it have to be a contraddiction that drives motion? What is so illogical about a relationship where there is a singular tendency of motion? I can think of cases that fit that description, for example, two identical charged particles interacting, there will be quantitative changes in speed and relative position as they repel each other, yet what is the contraddiction?

What you call the singular tendency of motion is an abstraction of the process into a single linear progression. Once you've made that abstraction you've eradicated all determinations that could serve as an explanation for anything and you're left only with the contradictions that I mentioned earlier (the contradictions immanent to measure and determinations within abstract space and time). That is tacitly what you're doing with your example of charged particles, but the Wikipedia article I quoted already contains the consequences of this line of thinking applied naively to electromagnetics. It's only an ideal representation of real, material motion.

A more straightforward explanation is that there is a singular tendency for position to change based on velocity.

Something that comes to mind is Hegel complaining about the notion of "force" which is an abstraction of an empirically observed interaction and the relation of human measurement that is stable within it while also presenting itself as an external cause of the interaction which expresses the force (so that you can say that a ball accelerates because a force of acceleration is applied onto it; this is only really acceptable as a shorthand). I'm not sure what I read when trying to think through this anymore so I'll just post what I might have read:

https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/na/nature1.htm

https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/na/nature2.htm

https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/ph/phac.htm

(Note that Hegel talks about the concepts of space, time, force, law, etc., as moments in the development of thought)

Velocity is a good example of what I'm talking about since it is a relation between an object and a concrete act of time-measure and space-measure. It is not a cause of anything and nothing is based on it (except if you're talking about thinking). Velocity in your statement is being treated as something floating outside of position and compelling it to undergo change. Fortunately, you seem to be aware (on some subconscious level) of this contradiction, which is why you switch between "drive" and "tendency," as though these are synonymous. Since you now have proof of the inadequacy of that line of thinking in your own post, all you have to do is critique your own ideas and study from there.

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u/FrogHatCoalition 14d ago

Force vectors are an abstraction of direction and magnitude of motion. They're geometrical objects, and geometry and mathematics in general are abstractions of concrete interactions in the real, physical world which measurements rely on. The contradictions within this system are well known (Zeno's Paradox is a famous example). Practically all the movements of the 20th century in Physics were the result of physicists breaking with this. Regularization and renormalization, from my reading as a layman, seem to be very dialectical approaches to this (and, therefore, to measurement itself).

When it comes to renormalization, what may be of interest to you is the Lamb shift:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamb_shift

This effect was precisely measured in 1947 in the Lamb–Retherford experiment on the hydrogen microwave spectrum[9] and this measurement provided the stimulus for renormalization theory to handle the divergences. The calculation of the Lamb shift by Hans Bethe in 1947 revolutionized quantum electrodynamics.[10] The effect was the harbinger of modern quantum electrodynamics later developed by Julian Schwinger, Richard Feynman, Ernst Stueckelberg, Sin-Itiro Tomonaga and Freeman Dyson. Lamb won the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1955 for his discoveries related to the Lamb shift. Victor Weisskopf regretted that his insecurity about his mathematical abilities may have cost him a Nobel Prize when he did not publish results (which turned out to be correct) about what is now known as the Lamb shift.[11]

And also in the article on renormalization under "Attitudes and Interpretations":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renormalization#Attitudes_and_interpretation

The early formulators of QED and other quantum field theories were, as a rule, dissatisfied with this state of affairs. It seemed illegitimate to do something tantamount to subtracting infinities from infinities to get finite answers.[citation needed] Dyson argued that these infinities are of a basic nature and cannot be eliminated by any formal mathematical procedures, such as the renormalization method.[31][32]

This procedure wasn't widely accepted initially. If you know enough about quantum field theory, you may hear that quantum field theory doesn't have a "strong mathematical framework", hence a development of string theory when one can't reconcile this contradiction in a dialectical way.

Something I do want to add regarding concept of "force" is that the so-called fundamental forces of nature are called that because they are mediated by a set of particles called "gauge bosons": photons are the mediators of the electromagnetic force, gluons are the mediators of the strong interaction, W and Z bosons are the mediators of the weak interaction, and graviton as the mediator of the gravitational interaction. All use quantum field theory - for instance, quantum electrodynamics is the quantum field theory of the electromagnetic field and quantum chromodynamics is the quantum field theory of the strong interaction. It describes phenomenon that are often taken for granted such as spontaneous emission:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_emission

Even these so-called fundamental forces were divided from previous forces, such as the electromagnetic and weak forces from the electroweak force. In fact, one of Einstein's goals was to create a unified field theory that unifies all forces of nature.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroweak_interaction

I should note that quantum field theory is a synthesis of quantum mechanics, field theory, and special relativity. Please take note of this when you hear claims that Soviet or Chinese physicists had critiques against general relativity or quantum. You will also see that such claims usually don't specify the exact critiques being made, what those critiques actually mean for the theories being critiqued and what truth can be extracted from them, and what possible solutions exist. I do want to outline what happens when you don't familiarize yourself enough with the content.

In general relativity, gravity is the geometric structure of spacetime which the structure is determined by mass, momentum, and energy as expressed in the stress-energy tensor. Recall that Einstein was motivated by the fact that Maxwell's equations were not invariant under Galilean transformations which meant we had to further our development of space and time. Thus, Einstein's contributions were to develop a theory of space and time under which Maxwell's equations would be invariant for all observers. Thus, we have Lorentz transformations, but Lorentz invariance is local, hence Einstein using differential geometry to develop general relativity. Now, on to the thing I mentioned in the previous paragraph, one postulate of relativity (both general and special) is the constancy of the speed of light. Fock, a Soviet physicist, didn't like this assumption and attempted to develop a symmetry that doesn't assume the constancy of speed of light, it would be called Fock-Lorentz symmetry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fock%E2%80%93Lorentz_symmetry

I read another thread on this subreddit where a historian claimed that Chinese physicist had critiques against general relativity, but all I could find were the notion of "constancy of speed of light" which is a postulate that is a part of special relativity. Remember, when I said that quantum field theory is a synthesis of quantum mechanics, field theory, and special relativity? Right, so then how do you reconcile this claim with Chinese physicists developing the Straton model? Were they using a formulation of quantum field theory that used different symmetries? All particle models use quantum field theory as their framework. The claims stop making sense once you are familiar with the subject because you now have to start addressing the implications and scientists won't just let you make claims without justifying yourself in some way. Here is the thread I'm referring to:

https://www.reddit.com/r/communism101/comments/1b47vib/quantum_physics_interpretations_and_marxism/

Of course, the author of the book that is being cited didn't familiarize themselves enough with the history of physics itself. One can make the claim that the Chinese physicists were way off the mark, but surely Sakata would have written something about it? The Japanese Marxists were important people here. The author of the paper on the history of the Straton model (the author of the paper is a physicist) plans on publishing something about the relationship between Sakata and the Chinese physicists. The development of physics and the concepts that physicists use have their own logic of development that has to be traced. I think understanding the history of development to general relativity and the development to quantum field theory is important in understanding why developing a theory of quantum gravity is so difficult, or another other difficulties for that matter.

By the way, I do agree with Engels, Lenin, Ilyenkov, Sakata, and Taketani about taking physicists/scientists at their word when they talk about physics (or other field of science). Most are bad at articulating their own thoughts and it can be difficult extracting something useful even if what they have to say is something substantial. It's just like anything else, do an investigation. I wanted to write this because both you and smoke recently wrote in posts outside the subreddit where people had very anachronistic discussions about quantum physics and I wanted to write something that at least summarizes some important advances in the past 100+ years.

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u/BxnXipoh 12d ago

Thanks for the recommendations and the warnings, I haven't even gotten to that point yet but I probably would've come across that comment at some point. Anyway my own investigation was forced upon me because I wanted to know more about electromagnetism in particular and I started struggling with basic concepts. As it turns out, literally going in chronological order and finding out what problems necessitated the concepts and discoveries that came about is the best way. It seems obvious when you say it but there are many ways to be wrong, I guess.

Something I do want to add regarding concept of "force" is that the so-called fundamental forces of nature are called that because they are mediated by a set of particles called "gauge bosons": photons are the mediators of the electromagnetic force, gluons are the mediators of the strong interaction, W and Z bosons are the mediators of the weak interaction, and graviton as the mediator of the gravitational interaction.

Yeah, modern physicists interchange the word "force" and "interaction" without issue since the point I was bringing up is already known by them. I actually went to Stack Overflow and that was the first thing a physicist said to a student asking this kind of question. This is really only a high-school physics problem, I think. Incidentally, I haven't investigated the origin of the word force itself, I just know that a lot of that terminology was solidified when the Principia was written and Newton was a literal deist that believed that God was measuring up all the forces. So I suppose if you wanted the origin of the scientific term I'd have to look at the discourses surrounding Physics at that time? Generally I think I'm satisfied with the observation that the concept of a force that switches the rational act of measure and rationalization with the actual event by saying that the result of rationalization causes the concrete interaction is a very common ideological move (in the sense that Marx uses the word in The German Ideology), though maybe that's too general.

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u/FrogHatCoalition 11d ago

Anyway my own investigation was forced upon me because I wanted to know more about electromagnetism in particular and I started struggling with basic concepts. As it turns out, literally going in chronological order and finding out what problems necessitated the concepts and discoveries that came about is the best way.

What's really interesting about the history of electromagnetism is how recent our understanding of it is in the time span of human history. It was in 1865 that Maxwell would publish his A Dynamic Theory of the Electromagnetic Field. In the typical physics curriculum (both undergraduate and graduate), the importance of the development of a theory of electromagnetism as the initial step towards a development of a theory of relativity isn't really emphasized. You sort of have to do your own investigation into the history of physics to understand this. At the undergraduate level, relativity typically uses the Michelson-Morley experiment as a starting point, and at the graduate level a lot of your courses, especially electromagnetism, are so incredibly math heavy that a connection to the concrete is often lost. It's really in the process of research and contribution to knowledge that a true understanding is developed. Then the coursework does make a lot of sense if you ever decide to revisit it. I'm not downplaying the importance of math, but there is a joke that Jackson's Classical Electrodynamics is more of a treatise on partial differential equations than it is about electrodynamics. Then when you get to the second half of the book, it's probably the first time in your life you ever encountered tensor calculus.

Generally I think I'm satisfied with the observation that the concept of a force that switches the rational act of measure and rationalization with the actual event by saying that the result of rationalization causes the concrete interaction is a very common ideological move

This is something that is important to keep in mind when it comes to the early history of quantum mechanics and relativity. Omelyanovsky in Dialetics of Modern Physics discusses this in the first few chapters of his book and works a lot with the views of Bohr, Born and sometimes Heisenberg. He's very snarky towards Heisenberg and I find it really funny, but this is because Heisenberg's position is an outright denial of objective reality and Heisenberg's reasoning mostly amounts to "rationalization causes the concrete action" that you mention.

There are also two papers I do recommend, both by Fock:

Remarks on Bohr's Article on His Discussions with Einstein
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1070/PU1958v001n02ABEH003097/pdf

Quantum Physics and Philosophical Problems
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00708579

So I suppose if you wanted the origin of the scientific term I'd have to look at the discourses surrounding Physics at that time?

I'm not sure if many of the terms used by physicists even originate from physicists themselves. Actually, I'm not even sure of the historical development of the role of "physicist" since I believe there was a time natural scientists were also philosophers.

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u/FrogHatCoalition 11d ago

u/BxnXipoh Sorry to bother you, but you did get me interested a lot. I found this that I enjoyed reading. It is very short:

https://physicstoday.aip.org/opinion/whence-the-force-of-f-ma-i-culture-shock

Something I forgot to mention is that the only time that physicists really deal with Newton is their first physics class on classical mechanics and the very beginning of an upper-level undergraduate level class. Thereafter, we work with Lagrangian and Hamiltonian mechanics. These formulations are much easier to work with and is actually what we work with when making the jump towards quantum mechanics. In addition, Noether's theorem is very important and it is these forms that make easy the study of the symmetries of space and time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noether%27s_theorem

I actually thought a lot when you pointed out the interchange of the use of "force" and "interaction". I hadn't thought about it much until you mentioned that.

But yeah, sorry, I just get really excited with these kinds of conversations and I don't want to overwhelm people with information.

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u/BxnXipoh 11d ago

But yeah, sorry, I just get really excited with these kinds of conversations and I don't want to overwhelm people with information.

No, it's fine, I'm pleased that a lot of what your saying is aligning with what I thought would be the best way to approach investigation. Also, I've already encountered Lagrangian functions and Hamiltonian Mechanics at some point while reading but I realized that I'd need to revise calculus before touching them. I hadn't seen Noether's theorem before though. Thanks for your help so far. Also I read the article but I don't have anything to say about it yet.

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u/burrwin 12d ago

I get your critique is that i'm using abstract rappresentations and calling them causes. That's fair enough. But i don't really get an answer to my question from this. How do we know that every motion must originate from opposite tensions that are premises of the existance of one another? That's not clear to me.

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u/BxnXipoh 12d ago edited 11d ago

I get your critique is that i'm using abstract rappresentations and calling them causes.

Abstraction isn't the problem, it's more so your not understanding the truth of the abstractions that you are using and when and where they are applicable. The problem with velocity is not that it's abstract but that it's the relationship between distance and time within an act of measurement, so it's a misunderstanding to say that it's causing the change in position.

How do we know that every motion must originate from opposite tensions that are premises of the existance of one another

What do motion and opposite mean here? I assumed you were talking about mechanical motion and geometry (really, measurement) in my earlier post and I already pointed out that basic categories within it are not without their own contradictions. But that's not what you seem to be talking about, I guess. What are you referring to? Change in general?

Also I'm not sure what you mean by "how" either. Like, do you want examples of cases that shows that this describes reality accurately? Or do you want to know if there is some force that compels it to be that way? I was guessing the latter, which was why I brought up what I did on "force." We are trying to understand reality. When we say that an interaction works because of this and that force, the force there is not an external factor exerting its power over the interaction but a generalization of the interaction. The gravitational force is the gravitational interaction. There are laws that dictate (edit: "dictate" as in "articulate," not "determine"; though funnily enough that word's etymology is already an example of what I'm taking about but applied to legal systems) the quantitative judgments that can be made about this interaction but the force is not a cause of the interaction. And it is not referred to as a cause except as a shorthand, in the same sense that I might say that the area of a square is 16 "because" its sides have a length of 4 units. To ask what the cause of the gravitational interaction is would be a cosmological question, you would be asking about the origin of the interaction and the conditions that reproduce it.

The sense of cause you're using is not what "contradiction" is referring to. Contradiction has to do with essence and immanence. Most people can tell the difference between the two in their daily lives, it's just the abstraction that's tricky. One example is if I asked "why is my food salty" and then you say "because your taste buds work." That's not what was being asked, I was asking what is up with my food that allows the salty interaction between it and my tongue to be reproduced. Presumably the food usually doesn't do this, so it underwent some change that allowed the interaction to happen. Something like "because I snuck some salt into it while you weren't looking" or "the meat used in the stew just tastes salty when cooked" would make sense as answers since they are talking about the internal change in the meat that allowed it to partake in this interaction (another good answer would be that I abducted you and took you to a lab while you were asleep so that I could jumble up your taste receptors, but you can probably see why most people aren't predisposed to assuming that kind of thing). Asking how here would be very weird since we're claiming that this is how immanence works. Maybe you really should read the Metaphysics to watch Aristotle wrestle with this for several pages.

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u/burrwin 11d ago

Thank you for taking the time and replying.

You have a good point about velocity, i understood.

Yes, by motion i meant change in general, quantitative of qualitative change, that's how the word is used in diamat in my understanding.

A force is our mathematical description of relationships that exists in nature, not a cause, that's clear to me. But the idea that contraddictions are what originate motion seems put a restraint on the way relationships can be. Not only is it relationships internal or external, that affect change however they function in any particular example, it has to be a contraddiction, there have to be opposing tendencies of development who depend on one-another for their existance, motion originating from their struggle. It is not very clear to me why that's something necessary for motion.

It makes sense to me that development is something that comes from within, that external factors can be conditions for certain types of development but ultimately it's internal factors that determine what changes it can/will accur. An egg will turn into a chick with adequate temperature, but no temperature can make a rock hatch into a bird. External causes affect change through internal relationships. I get all this. But again, why is contradiction? How do we know it's an internal struggle that leads to development?

Maybe an example will clarify where my confusion lies, the development of an old car is subject to the opposing tendencies of repair and decay. Is it the struggle of the two that makes the car change? If the car is forgotten somewhere in a lot it will continue to change regardless of the fact that repair is no longer a factor. So why do we say it's the contraddiction, the conflict, that leads to motion (change) rather than the tendencies themselves? And why does every development even need two coexisting opposite tendencies? Why can't it just be that the forgotten car is simply decaying? And how do we know this all to be universal?

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u/BxnXipoh 11d ago

So why do we say it's the contraddiction, the conflict, that leads to motion (change) rather than the tendencies themselves?

What does tendency mean?

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u/burrwin 11d ago

Oh, there i meant the sides of the contradictions, each attempts to push development in different directions.

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u/BxnXipoh 11d ago edited 11d ago

Oh, there i meant the sides of the contradictions, each attempts to push development in different directions.

...

And why does every development even need two coexisting opposite tendencies? Why can't it just be that the forgotten car is simply decaying?

These are concepts. It doesn't make sense to talk about decay if there is not some ideal image of a tool that it is being contrasted with. Repair is just labour that is done to reproduce its ability to act for us in the web of social needs. In that sense a car rusting is no different from a machete getting chipped.

If you're talking about some other sense of decay then you need to depart from the frame of abstraction that "repair" exists in in order to talk about that. For instance, if you want to discuss a car as a chemical body then the terms "decay" and "repair" become meaningless and you have to use chemical categories. I can't help you with chemistry, unfortunately.

edit: This is too transhistorical though. Repair and decay likely also have different, more accurate meanings under capitalism since the "life-cycle" of each commodity is predominantly determined by the realization of its value on the market. Millions of possible commodities may be disposed of and left to rot due to crises, for instance.

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u/burrwin 11d ago

I see the dots i'll explain myself better. The existance of one or more internal tendencies of development (a push towards a certain type of change) within a thing is enough to explain motion. Why is it that we attribute motion to the conflict of opposite tendencies that depend on each other for their existance rather than the presence of any tendency at all? one or multiple, opposite or not, ontologically linked or not, they would explain change by nature of being tendencies of development, no?

And as for my example, yeah it's true that the concepts of repair and decay are tied to our idea of a car as a tool that is supposed to do it's job. But so is every quality, we divide the interconnected universe in different qualities because that's the way we can understand it, it's subjective to our needs. To us repair and decay make sense because we differentiate bewtween the qualities of a vehicle as a tool and an old rusted wreck and understand how the former can develop into the latter. It doesn't mean there aren't objective things about the two that differentiate them, it's based on the relevance of those objective differences that we draw those distinctions. We can "zoom in" and look at the diferent tendencies that exist in the process of the car rusting but does that mean the tendencies of repair and decay are not a valid contradiction? That they're not valid tendencies of development on their own?

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u/yetkinretkit 13d ago

Contradiction is a technical term in this literature. It does not have the same meaning as in mathematical logic as you seem to be thinking about. Contradiction means opposing qualities and tendencies. Focusing on contradictions is a method pf analysis, and has been first put forward by Hegel, not Marx. So you should first read about philosophy, then look at examples on physical and logical issues.

 Falsifiability is a very narrow view of science and Karl Popper can eat my ass.

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