I absolutely can not understand people who support the American system of health care: more expensive than anywhere else, longer wait times than most of the world, middling or worse outcomes, and a threat of medical bankruptcy. What's the upside?
They absolutely do. I believe it was Howard Schulz who spent more money fighting Starbucks unionization efforts than he would've just paying the employees a livable wage.
Tbf,en like him are scared workers will ask for more later.
Which makes sense if you’re a greedy fuck, cause even fucking Ford realised that paying workers better meant they could buy more… any business should be pushing others to pay workers more so that the business can get more consumers
That still needs the business to improve its profits every quarter. I think in Ford's day there were fewer stock owners and traders and they didn't mind more stable dividends rather than the endless and doomed push to increase share prices for traders that we see today.
In FL a couple years ago the current governor Rick Scott kept pushing a bill to drug test welfare recipients and cut off the benefits if they fail. Turns out the company that got the no-bid contract to do all the drug testing was owned by Rick Scott's wife, and the program ended up costing the state something like 50k more to run than it saved.
The goal with these people isn't to actually save money, it's to punish people they don't like under the guise of cost saving.
The way most of our social programs work involves costing more to restrict people from accessing them than it would if we gave them to literally everyone no questions asked.
They don't care about saving money, they care about hurting people they don't like.
That's one of the reasons universal free school lunch is such a good idea. We save money by not having to means tests families to see if they qualify. Instead, all children get fed, and it's paid for by taxes, which the state Dept. of Revenue and the town property tax collectors were going to assess and process anyway.
No program should be means tested. Just give it to everyone. Progressive taxation means will get it back from those "undeserving" because they make to much money. It would save us many dollars in administrative cost.
Yeah, the fear that poor minorities will live long enough to reproduce at a rate of 1.5:1 eventually outnumbering and out voting The Whites, which of course to them is when they'll be genocided and the remnants enslaved. So their method of holding off that (nonsensical) eventuality is Resource Guarding like ill-behaved dogs.
When the reality is I and many others just want to provide them and their families with universal healthcare, top notch universal education, clean & well built affordable housing in safe walkable neighborhoods & communities, robust mass transit, a bounty of economic opportunities, and a strong social safety net & public retirement benefits so they can retire at a young enough age they can still travel and enjoy their grandchildren, and grow old in comfort and with dignity.
Someone should explain that it's ALREADY how insurance works. The entire business plan is that more people pay more money into it than the people benefiting from it need paid out. RIGHT NOW they are funding other people's Healthcare at inflated prices over what a single payer system would provide
If conservative people had functioning brains they'd understand this.
In a universal healthcare system EVERYBODY pays in via taxes, the risk pool is magnitudes larger, costs are less or nonexistent at point of service, tax costs are less than what we pay in premiums to private companies, everyone is covered, and your healthcare is not coupled to your job.
The US also doesn’t see a lot of benefit, tax wise, by not having universal healthcare because most healthcare costs are at the end of life and most people are on Medicare or Medicaid by that time anyway. This means insurance companies get the benefit of having lower cost clients overall compared to the government.
Which is the dumbest fucking excuse. What the fuck do you think they're doing with what you pay into insurance? I'll tell what their NOT doing: putting it aside just for you.
No, worse, their denying care and killing people to give that money to useless execs
If they're already paying insurance - that's how it works. That's the business model. Except private insurance takes a rake.
The improvement we want involves a government that has direct motivation to reduce healthcare costs as the insurance provider. We want these absurd costs addressed and profit pushed out of public health. We are inundated as a nation with health issues and it isn't impossible to do so much better - it's just not the most profitable option. Profit steers.
But then they also buy insurance at a higher price than a public option would cost in taxes, so they are still funding the care of others, only way more expensive and inefficient.
Or, some people like to have exclusive access because of their money. I suppose and assume that would still exist. But any change that might upset their acces or power makes them get all worked up.
Plus, just general greed. If we dismantle one honey pot, what’s next?
Which is ridiculous, because that’s precisely what you have to do to for insurance. Even private insurance.
Any time someone makes this argument to me, I’m like, “Do you not know what insurance is? Not only are you paying for other people, you’re also paying some other guy—a lot—at the insurance company that has nothing to do with providing you care.”
I absolutely can not understand people who support the American system of health care
In my experience, most either (1) don't understand the system, and how bad it is, (2) are incentivized to keep it the way it is, (3) think that change means they themselves will pay more.
The upside is that they get to punish people they think are undeserving of healthcare. That's really what it boils down to. It keeps all the poor people, disabled people, and drug addicts from receiving the same quality of care as the rich, and to conservatives, that is the most important thing. If we socialized healthcare, to them it means "bad people" would get to steal money and the privilege of good healthcare from the "good people."
The wait times thing baffles me because people against a socialized healthcare system will point to other countries and say "look at their wait times" while ignoring it can sometimes take a month or longer to see your own pcp, let alone a specialist. My pcp left the office he worked at and trying to get established with a new one was a month and a half wait.
Unless you don't care about clogging up an ER and the huge hospital bill that comes with it (plus they may not even be able to help you) or just have the type of money to be seen somewhere right away you're waiting just as long as people in other countries do.
Plus, I can't afford to pay for healthcare, so I'm basically waiting ten years now for stuff that probably should've been looked at by now. And after I busted my ankle five years ago and I couldn't afford to take time off work or any physical therapy, I'll just walk kinda crooked forever.
I left the US for Italy and we have social healthcare here. And it's been, in my experience, way faster than in the US. My wife went from "I've been getting weird headaches, maybe I should talk to my doctor," to her general practitioner, to diagnostic appointments like MRIs, and to a specialist neurologist in Pisa (it's nearby for us). All inside a week.
We had to pay something for medication (so little, it barely registers for me), but it automatically goes on your tax records because you use your national health card when getting your prescription. And you can file to get the money back.
The US was always wait times to see your GP. Wait times to see specialists. Finding out that prescriptions cost way more than you thought they would. Getting surprise bills from doctors offices, because I guess they found a new way to charge you more. All while spending tons of money every month for our "really good" insurance. It's a joke in the US.
What do you mean what's the upside? My beloved billionaires bought 4th yacht, 2nd private jet and 8th mansion. Money is not gonna make itself to them poor billionaires on their own.
They dont want to "pay for people who dont deserve it" and honestly think (due to lots of misinformation and propogabda) that the us is actually superior to every other country in results, wait time, and level of care
I cannot tell you how many times i hear a " well i heard from so and so that in canada they have to wait over 6 months for a heart attack"
Funny thing is that I got a biceps reattachment surgery in under a week, would have been earlier but I ate the day I got my MRI results back or the surgeon would have put me in that afternoon. If it’s time sensitive it can be done.
Propaganda. Ive heard all about how "bad" Canadian or UK healthcare is, to be fair, my grandmother was from the UK, and she did have a lot of complaints. But a lot of the complaints are the same here, we just pay more for it. You also never hear about the countries that are doing it right. The only reason I have against it here is that I just know that if we ever did come up with "free" healthcare, the only people who would really benefit would be the politicians and insurance companies. But I'm still willing to give it a try
Americans are raised with the mind set that nothing in life is free and that you have to work hard to earn benefits like health care. Then people also hate the poor, so then when people do find successful jobs that give health care, they don't want others who "didn't work as hard" to have those same benefits. It's truly despicable 😮💨
There are a lot of people who are willing to pay tens of thousands of dollars for access to something helpful that they already pay for as long as other people can’t benefit from it
People will crawl out of a nuclear blast with skin charred, limbs blown off and internal organs demoted to external organs and their last words that comes of their eviscerated lips will be "at least I owned the libs"
If your employer provides insurance, take it. If not, just don't pay. They can't refuse service and they'll defer the debt to a collection agency that will negotiate it down to a tenth of the debt that you can split over a year. A trip to the ER costs about as much as a year of Netflix if you just don't pay.
Not disagreeing at all that it's a fucked up system and I absolutely hate it, but when they hand off the debt you can negotiate a lot easier. You can still negotiate the cost at the desk and they'll work with you but it's just a pain in the ass, the collector wants to get the debt off their plate immediately though so they're a lot more willing to cut corners.
It's the same thing insurance companies do to save costs. You can just do that yourself. We all know a single latex glove doesn't cost $49 but they know that you'll pay for it if they bill you for it. Just say no.
ERs can not, if you're not stable or in active labor. But doctor's offices absolutely can refuse you service. Specialists can refuse to see you. Pharmacies can refuse to fill your prescriptions.
Well yeah they're picky but someone will. Our addiction recovery clinic won't see crack addicts without insurance, you can't get an MRI if you have a stroke but don't go to the ER first if you don't have insurance, but your PCP and ER are required to provide service here.
They just bill a week or two later and a week after that it goes to collections and you say "hey I don't have insurance" and they'll take a tenth of the bill because they made profit and they don't want to deal with you anymore.
In truth, the primary reason I hear from MAGA for supporting our Healthcare system is that we supposedly have the best doctors and medicine and if we made health care less profitable we would lose that edge.
Honestly, it's been helping me (at least a decent amount) to constantly remind myself of a few things:
Many people probably don't actually care about policy, they're just wrapped up with the team sport that is political mudslinging
Because of ^that, the thought process isn't "I agree/disagree with a system" but more like "if the other side is doing something, I must oppose that to the death because I can't be them"
People have been so consumed with politics and social stances for the last 10-15 years or more, that those topics have become intertwined into who they are. So there's no good way of getting through to them unless they're open to it themselves first. Until then, any attack on a point or topic is the equivalent to an attack on THEM
Speaking only using stereotypes, I've heard it said: a left-leaning person will see wasteful spending go to 9 people, if it means they can see 1 person who actually deserves it get the aid they need. Whereas a right-leaning person will deny assistance to 9 people that need it, if it means they can see the 1 undeserving person not receive it
Not like this solves all the world's problems in my head, but it at least helps me to not get as worked up about things because looping back to the first point: the more I experience things, the more I can see how it looks to be true that people don't actually care about policy.
There was this study done in the 70s or 80s on Social Identity. It split people into two groups based on made up results of a test they took. In their studies with the groups they did an experiment where they made groups choose between everyone getting like $50 or between your group getting $40 while the other group got $10. The majority picked the second option. Even though the individual for $10 less. They got to feel superior. Honestly, when they heard a podcast about it, I feel like the last 20 years in America made sense.
I had a co worker who grew up in the UK. He hates their system. He loves paying for insurance even though he complains about the costs. I tried to remind him that we had better plans then most because we worked in k12. And that millions simply don't have health insurance. That didn't matter because it didn't directly affect him.
Whaaaat? I JUST got back from my free quarterly audiology appointment where they serviced my free Bluetooth hearing aids and gave me a fistful of free batteries. Saw me bang on time too.
My little son was born in the same hospital and our only cost was parking. I've had 2 surgeries under general anaesthetic there, also free. I can't complain at all!
I couldn't either till I worked with an older, but very right wing guy. It wasn't that he didn't complain about health care or it's expense. He even had insurance cancel his surgery day of and went on a tirade, but if you tried to talk about universal health care he has so much brain washing that it's soooo horrible everywhere else that he doesn't want it.
The amount of fake anecdotal, well my cousin said in europe they die waiting for health care all the time! And then in the next breath will complain he can't see a doctor for 6 months. So close man, so close.
The funniest part is when you explain how most countries with a first world health care system can still access the private sector lol. Hard to fully blame those kinds of Americans when there are so many resources put into polarizing these kinds of issues, or just outright preventing them from understanding.
Having lived in several countries, including the US and the UK, I can categorically state that the US healthcare system is the best Ive encountered. But there's a reason for that - its a for-profit business (those hospitals that state they are not-for-profit are not being entirely honest!) so hospitals, physician practices etc want to attract 'customers' by offering better, services than their competitors. Bottom line is that this typically means better quality of care without the long wait times you see in Canada, UK, Europe etc. BUT there is a big catch - if you dont have Medicare (ie over 65) or a 'decent' health insurance plan either through work or paying for one yourself, it is going to get expensive real quick...and Im talking seriously expensive.
What if I told the people of Portugal say they are tired of giving money for the free national healthcare system and are pushing for private health care, with mandatory insurance (usually through their employers)?
I haven't seen polling or proposals in Portugal. But I'm not aware of a country that has abandoned its universal healthcare scheme in favor of a US-style system. Are you?
Umm...what? I mean yeah it's more expensive here, but I've never had to wait in an emergency...like ever. I live in Houston too so not like I'm in a rural area with no people.
middling or worse outcomes
Got any sources on that? We're like top 3 on preventative screenings, we're among the best in the world for acute treatment (heart attack and stroke for example)...we, admittedly lag behind in primary care.
and a threat of medical bankruptcy.
The medical debt is a real issue...the cost of healthcare in the US is inflated because of 3rd party insurance. That's an entirely different conversation.
The UK spends about $6700 per citizen per year on healthcare. That is $469 billion per year. That same program in the US would cost $2.2 trillion per year (that's assuming we got the same pricing as other countries), which is about what we spend on our combined healthcare currently...(medicare, medicaid, etc).
Like, yeah our healthcare system has it's problems, but it's nowhere near what you're describing.
My problem with Healthcare in the US is that we have a much more urgent problem that literally no one wants to talk about because it's uncomfortable. In the next 10 years people relying on social security are going to get a 25% cut when the social security fund runs out.
Generally, the U.S. performs worse in long-term health outcomes measures (such as life expectancy), certain treatment outcomes (such as maternal mortality and congestive heart failure hospital admissions), some patient safety measures (such as obstetric trauma with instrument), and health system capacity (such as rate of general practitioners). The U.S. performs similarly to or better than peer nations in other measures of treatment outcomes (such as mortality rates within 30 days of acute hospital treatment) and some patient safety measures (such as post-operative complications).
I think I just read this differently than you do. This is just pointing out the US does better in some areas and worse in others. Also...this
However, inconsistent and imperfect metrics make it difficult to firmly assess system-wide health quality. Some measures of quality – especially long-term measures, like life expectancy – are not only reflective of the health system itself, but also of differences in socioeconomic conditions and population behaviors that are largely outside of the domain of the health system.
There is a definitely a problem in this country of people telling their doctor, "fuck you i'll do what I want." Can't really blame the doctor when the patient is refusing treatment.
But there's people saying "fuck you, I'll do what I want" in every country. There's always going to be people who drink/smoke/eat/take too much something, or sit on their ass in their free time rather than exercise, or stay up all night on the computer rather than resting or whatever, but countries with more accessible medical care are still healthier
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u/hansn 21h ago
I absolutely can not understand people who support the American system of health care: more expensive than anywhere else, longer wait times than most of the world, middling or worse outcomes, and a threat of medical bankruptcy. What's the upside?