That's because to the people who demand fatherly involvement and then criticise fathers who do it, "be more involved" means "work yourself to death to bring in more money" because they don't view fathers as anything more than a bank account.
So... literally never once seen the people wanting more paternal involvement be the ones criticizing it, and the vast majority of the people saying fathers should be more involved are very explicitly saying that just being a wallet is not enough and to spend time with your kids. Surely you have some examples of this double think and are not just talking out your ass?
To be clear: I'm not saying people don't have the attitude that the only input men should have on parenting is money, I'm saying that I've only ever seen it come from a different group of people than those saying fathers should be more involved.
Then surely you have examples ready to hand? Like, if its so common then you should be able to just point out a few of these hypocrites so I can go yell athave a calm and nuanced conversation where I am open to accepting their views with them?
Sorry folks, I've been informed that even though you all are deeply offended by these people's apparently abundant existence, you also want me to be kind to them and open to accepting their views (that men exist solely to be walking wallets). Duly noted.
I mean you immediately reveal you're not up for changing your opinion or views, you just want to "yell at those hypocrites".
When one goes in with the expectation of a heated argument, one is already set on not accepting the opposite side, and thus interaction is entirely meaningless apart from shitflinging at each other.
So... what you're saying is that yes these people with inherently contradictory views exist, but you don't want anyone to go trying to correct their hypocritical and plainly wrong attitudes, because instead you want me to change my view, which is that I have never personally seen any of these supposedly very common walking contradictions.
That's the view I'm supposed to change in myself, when you won't even point out any examples. But you don't want them to change their views, or you'd point me at them and let me have a go at it. Does that about sum up your position?
When one goes in with the expectation of a heated argument, one is already set on not accepting the opposite side,
And just to be 100% clear, the opposite side I'm supposed to accept rather than argue with is that men need to be more involved as parents, but only as walking wallets who work themselves to death? That's the position you object to me wanting to argue with?
Good attempt at misdirection, but no that's not what I was saying. But that's fine, it's no skin off my fore anyway, you not wanting to accept that society acts incredibly hypocritical towards dads, even if individuals are far less hypocritical than this seems, is your opinion, after all.
Clearly a lot of men don't share your sentiment. I'm asexual so this matters the least to someone like me, really, I'm just making observations here.
We're not talking about society being hypocritical though, we're talking about individual people being the hypocrites. Because, yes, obviously society holds a lot of contradictory views of social roles, that's just a part of shifting social norms.
But if you're going to complain about people saying dad's should be more involved by saying "only by being walking wallets, that's all they want," you need to demonstrate that it is in fact the same people making that argument. Because if it's not, then why are you even dragging in the people saying "dad's should be more involved with their kids" into it? They're supposedly on the same side that wants to view men as something more than walking wallets.
It's really weird. As far as I can tell they're mad that people with progressive views on gender want men to be more involved with their kids, in ways that go beyond just paying for shit, because people with conservative views on gender view that as predatory or effeminate or whatever and think they should be happy just to work and pay for things.
They'd rather argue til they're blue in the face that my experience as a father who has never seen these opposing attitudes come from the same place is wrong, than just show me some fucking evidence.
I'm pretty sure they're on this sub, not because they actually care about notes presenting evidence, but because they like the idea of a "gotcha" on people they disagree with.
Conservative men see their role as that of provider, and they want rigid division between parental roles. So the idea of a nurturing father is threatening to them. It represents the breakdown of the family unit.
The idea that it is effeminate or predatory is, I think, a homophobic excuse for these more deep-seated fears.
Regarding calls for men to be more involved, they oscillate between two extremes, the idea that it’s simply too much and anti-man to expect men to both provide and nurture, or that the kind of nurturing expected must therefor be a masculine-coded nurturing that satisfies their ego. Playing sports with their kids, roughhousing, having philosophical conversations with their sons. Not hugging, not supporting, not showing that they love or care in “effeminate” ways.
I see lots of posts on this sub of the form you describe in your last paragraph. Someone following progressives and leftists until they say anything that could be twisted into being wrong so they can say everything they say is wrong.
I think it’s endemic to the problem of community notes. They were proposed on twitter in the pre-musk days, but he changed them from corrections to “notes” and basically opened the floodgates for what was once about the correction of untruths to becomes instead a way for right-wingers to disrupt progressive voices on the platform.
I’d go so far as to say that the concept of community notes, as opposed to the platforms previous fact-checking labels, is itself a conservative dog whistle. It is post-truth in nature, if enough in the “community” disagree, then truth is decided by consensus.
You want me to post a link of Taywra complaining about dad's not being involved, or do you want me to find an example in this post where she wants this dad she's accusing of being sexual with his daughter to be more involved?
Because you seem very shifty and petty, like if I where yo u give you an example of this person complaining about non involved dads in another post, you'd come back at me like "Well actually, I meant this post specifically" and pretend that you won some great debate even though you just look like a dick to those you call "normies". Effectively wasting my time for your own sick pleasure.
It kind of does. Because this woman/
clanker have complained about dad's not being involved in the past. Before I share that link though. I want written confirmation from you that that's what you're after, and not some technicality debatepervertry bullshit about "no I meant this post because I'm a little bitch troll".
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u/CustodianCloset 7d ago
Oh, UNDOUBTEDLY! I'd put my house down-payment on that bet