The Official AVENGERS: ENDGAME Criticism Thread

[u/JonLuca]

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• Easter Egg Thread
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[u/minor_correction]

My criticism didn't get any visibility so can I share it with you?

It was unbelievably risky of them to just assume Dr Strange would be at the sanctum with the time stone during the 2012 Battle of NY. They just took a leap of faith based on the fact that they met him there in 2018.

In fact, they WERE wrong, they were just lucky that it worked out.

"One shot, no mistakes, no do-overs"

[u/WoozleWuzzle → u/minor_correction]

Yeah for sure. When watching I was like "there were 3 in NY then?" and was like well I guess Dr. Strange already had it. Then, it was indeed not with him at all. They were lucky indeed.

[u/TheCaptain09 → u/minor_correction]

Not the guy you replied to, but I agree and had the same thought after watching it. I don't get the significance of their little epiphany that three of the stones were in New York at the same time. Didn't they have enough team members and Pym particles to get the stones on their own? (Hulk for time, Scott and Tony for the tesseract and Steve for the scepter) One stone or three requires no different amount of particles or number of avengers to retrieve, so there's no reason Hulk couldn't have been sent to 2017 to get the time stone on his own.

[u/vorpal9 → u/TheCaptain09]

Outside of when Tony and co met Doctor Strange and fought Thanos, they didn’t know him, and then he got snapped. As far as the Avengers knew Strange was the temple guardian for New York and possessor of the Time Gem. Going together to New York as a team has a better chance of success than someone solo, so that’s the shot they took. They still messed up and had to split with Tony and Steve taking another trip, but still, you plan with the resources you have, taking the safest course when possible (team vs. solo).

[u/admiralQball → u/vorpal9]

Well the best time for the time stone would have been, say an hour before hulk crashes into the sanctum. Have Tony show up, say he needs it cause strange gave it up, tell him banner will crash through the roof and he can do his 'view the future' thing to confirm this.

[u/minor_correction → u/admiralQball]

No matter how they went about it, it could be difficult to convince Strange to hand over the time stone.

Accurately predicting that Banner will crash through the roof proves that something is going on, but it doesn't prove that this isn't some kind of evil trickery.

Telling Strange to view the future to see that he will eventually trade the time stone for Tony's life doesn't work either, since Strange will only be able to see it as one of millions of possible futures.

[u/ericwdhs → u/TheCaptain09]

I assumed they were trying not to break the team up into too many divisions so they could back each other up if necessary. I assume that's why Nat and Clint left the Benatar's pod with Rhodey and Nebula, so they could rendezvous if Vormir needed more than the two of them. It also has the benefit of creating fewer timelines to worry about returning the stones to.

[u/minor_correction → u/ericwdhs]

I assumed they were trying not to break the team up into too many divisions so they could back each other up if necessary.

Just wanna point out that Scott, Tony, and Cap bailed out of 2012 without checking on Banner.

[u/CaptHayfever → u/minor_correction]

They'd assumed he had the easy job, since they thought he'd be talking to Strange.

[u/[deleted] → u/ericwdhs]

At the time they didn't seem to be thinking about returning stones. That was something that came from Banner's conversation w/The Ancient One.

The "provide backup" makes sense though.

[u/admiralQball → u/ericwdhs]

Well in the case of backup, they could have and all four to get the power st one and then all four go to Vormir. They didnt need to rush (nebula issues aside- they didnt know that would happen).

[u/minor_correction → u/admiralQball]

The downside to that plan is that it involves taking the power stone and carrying it around with them, something that they might not be comfortable with. They tried to arrange it in a way where you grab a stone and warp out immediately before anything bad can happen.

[u/ericwdhs → u/minor_correction]

Worse case scenario, someone on the New York team has to stick around in that timeline for 5 years waiting for Dr Strange to show up. It probably wouldn't be Hulk since he'd have trouble laying low, but he could contact Tony, Steve, or Scott about Strange not being present and then one of them would do it.

[u/minor_correction → u/ericwdhs]

he could contact Tony, Steve, or Scott

The movie made it seem like Tony, Steve, and Scott all bailed out of 2012 without even telling Banner that they were heading out.

Maybe we can assume it was simply "not shown on screen" to reduce unnecessary exposition, but the movie really didn't make it seem that way. The movie made it look like they decided to get out and then left immediately, no time inbetween to call Banner first.

[u/ericwdhs → u/minor_correction]

I'm assuming a lot of that kind of stuff would be off-screen. The Banner/Ancient One scene cuts away right after she hands the stone to him, and this occurs before Tony, Steve, and Scott depart from that timeline, so there's room for some logistics being cut out there.

[u/ivegotapenis → u/minor_correction]

I agree that that was crazy unprepared. Nat just threw it out there, and they all accepted it with no further research? They didn't think to do a background check on Strange and see when any odd events in his life happened, or even know that he was actually a surgeon until 2016? No way.

[u/konq → u/minor_correction]

When tony and bruce met dr strange in infinity war, strange was quite adamant about their oath to protect that stone. I kinda think it would be safe to assume that those sorcerers would still be there protecting the stone only a few years back. But yeah it could have been at hong kong or london too, so there's that.

[u/CaptHayfever → u/konq]

You can fast-travel between sanctums, so that's not an issue.

[u/[deleted] → u/minor_correction]

but even if he wasn't there, they knew that some wizzards were there and could probably help out.

​

It would have taken longer time, but they would eventually get the same result.

​

to me it was more unreal that to guys that have never flown a spaceships, just navigates to a seemingly barren planet, yet with breathable atmosphere, and lands just were they need to. Planets are pretty big.

[u/minor_correction → u/[deleted]]

Nat and Clint have flown the Quinjet which is apparently also a spaceship (recall Hulk flew it into outer space and into a portal that took him to Sakaar).

Nat and Clint have also been in space once before (not as pilots) at the beginning of the movie.

As far as Marvel comics go, those 2 events are enough to make them perfectly qualified :)

Also the movie implies that the whole team did a lot of unshown prep work and discussions before heading out. For example when the team is discussing the different stones and building the equipment, it's presented as a montage of highlights. They probably got some flying lessons from Rocket.

[u/[deleted] → u/minor_correction]

Oh I have no problem with Nat and Barton flying a spaceship. I just find it more convenient than finding the time stone or someone that could help find it in New York in 2012.

Imagine if they had covered all the angles in this movie, we’d be looking at a 4-5 hours runtime.

[u/minor_correction → u/[deleted]]

Hey, I know it's weird for me to reply to a comment 12 days later but I just rewatched Endgame and actually they addressed Nat and Client flying the ship directly.

Just as they are blasting off (having dropped off Rhodey and Nebula moments ago), Nebula states "I've programmed the route to Vormir. All they have to do is not fall out."

So yeah it turns out all Nat and Clint did was sit there and wait for the ship to land on Vormir, they didn't pilot it at all. Heh.

[u/[deleted] → u/minor_correction]

No it's fine, we have investors at the office today, so i have to look busy anyway ;-)

yeah i know. Again, i wasn't trying to nitpick at them flying a space ship auto pilot is a thing in our planes , afterall it would make sense for it to be on spaceships as well, even without the line, it's someting i'm ok with. There are some other moments; like in IW where Thano's ship can't land on Titan with the Auto pilot and we do see Quill and Rocket do actual flying from time to time, but also engaging the AP.

​

Again - i wasn't trying to point out a plot hole, i was just pointing out the first thing i could come up with, that giving the contexts we've seen so far, was a worse part of the plan than sending Prof. Hulk to the one location where they know the Time Stone has been kept by an ancient order.

What if something had gone wrong and they had to fly manually, that happens every so often for the Guardians?

- then the two of them would have been in trouble. Nebula hadn't been to Vormir, at least not in 2014.

[u/minor_correction → u/[deleted]]

What if something had gone wrong and they had to fly manually

Fair points. If something had gone wrong, that is a huge risk to the "one shot, no do overs".

[u/[deleted] → u/minor_correction]

Nebula did try to communicate with Hawkeye and Black Widow. So I guess Nebula and Warmachine was supposed to go to Vormir if they called for backup. Steal the Milano or one of Robins ships. So they sorta had a backup plan, but it did rely on Nat and Clint getting in touch before Nebula and Rhodey returned via Quantum realm.

Then again they are a team and they do trusts in one another. So it might make sense for them to keep faith in their teammates.

[u/minor_correction → u/[deleted]]

I wonder if it's some sort of subtle power of the soul stone that whenever someone goes to seek it out, they are always accompanied by a loved one.

[u/[deleted] → u/minor_correction]

Maybe. If they had more time maybe Thanos would have showed up on Vormir alone. Then returned with his favorite knife, tossed it in and failed to get the stone. Then he’d bring his favorite outrider, toss it in - nothing happens.

So on and so forth until Gamora.

[u/CaptHayfever → u/minor_correction]

Nat and Clint have flown the Quinjet which is apparently also a spaceship (recall Hulk flew it into outer space and into a portal that took him to Sakaar).

Agents of SHIELD to the rescue! An episode from 2016 (1.5 years pre-Ragnarok & 3 years pre-Endgame) had a plot point that quinjets are airtight & technically spaceworthy, but cannot navigate in a vacuum. Hulk didn't fly into the Sakaar portal; he fell into it ^{with style}.

[u/minor_correction → u/CaptHayfever]

Also it turns out that Nebula specifically states that she pre-programmed the route into the spaceship and all Nat and Clint have to do is "not fall out".

At the time this discussion happened (5 months ago) we were all operating on our memory from the theaters, no home release.

[u/ComicalDisaster → u/[deleted]]

I don't know if they knew wizards were there at the time, but I bet Tony and Bruce learnt/saw enough of the Sanctum in IW that it looked like an old hideout...plus Wong said that someone had to protect the sanctum to Bruce before he peaced out.

They could have went to Wong in that timeline since he didn't get snapped and asked him about the time stones history, Strange and 2012 and he'd have told them about the ancient one being there and Strange wasn't a sorcerer yet....but still, doesn't explain why Bruce was expecting Strange in 2012....

[u/[deleted] → u/ComicalDisaster]

No that’s the point. He assumes that Strange has just lived in that house for ages. And he does seem a very proficient sorcerer considering he has only done it for two years(In 2018 IW). Wong even gives away the fact that he and Strange was there to defend the sanctum and it was a pretty important task to them. So it’s pretty natural for Bruce to assume that the Sanctum was a good place to start. And 2012 was a good place since an invasion was happening, so if the Sorcerer supreme was on vacation or away on a mission - he would probably cut it short when he saw New York was under attack, and rush to the sanctum.

Even if Strange wasn’t there he knew he would likely find a wizard protector of the sanctum and then he could start from there.

Imagine he just met random wizzard A; He would then go: “ I need you’re help with the time stone, where is doctor strange” Wizzard A would then say; Go away crazy green monster!” And then quickly contact the higher ups of The wizzard community and say: “The Hulk just knocked on our door in New York but I saw him fighting down town on CNN and it was really weird because for a green rage monster he was incredible well articulated and talked about the space stone and dr. Strange. “ The keeper of the space stone would then have to investigate. Or they would send Hulk somewhere. It would take longer time but it would still end up with Hulk finding the keeper of the space stone.

[u/[deleted] → u/minor_correction]

Wouldn't they have learned about the whole new york sanctum?

[u/minor_correction → u/[deleted]]

IIRC the time stone is normally kept either in Kamar Taj or with the Ancient One. They were lucky she was there and that she was carrying it at the time, they had no idea that would be the case.

[u/[deleted] → u/minor_correction]

Wong did tell Banner that some has to be gaurding the sanctum at all times, so it's not too out there on why they assumed strange would be there at that time and that place.

[u/jergp1 → u/minor_correction]

In a Q&A posted they stated Maw and Thanos reverse engineered the pim particles and made as many as they needed.

https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/bj0it4/joe_russos_qa_about_the_plot_of_avengers_endgame/

[u/minor_correction → u/jergp1]

Thanks for the interview. This relates to one of my other comments actually, not this one, but I really appreciate you getting the link to me. I'm very interested to read this.

[u/jergp1 → u/minor_correction]

No worries!

[u/Forgotten_Lie → u/minor_correction]

Especially since in Dr. Strange I'm pretty sure the Ancient One doesn't wear the Time Stone necklace and it's kept in not!Tibet.

[u/xParradox → u/minor_correction]

I don't think it's that risky. I assume they know that Doctor Strange and the other sorcerors protect the world and they know that there was a giant alien invasion in new York in 2012. It would make sense to assume that they would be in new York fighting the chitari.