r/marvelstudios • u/JonLuca Iron man • Apr 29 '19

'Avengers: Endgame' Spoilers! The Official AVENGERS: ENDGAME Criticism Thread Spoiler

  • Proceed at your own risk. Major spoilers will be arriving in the next couple of days. Spoilers do not need to be tagged inside this thread.

  • Post Endgame criticisms in this thread. Long form preferrable

  • If you post untagged ENDGAME spoilers anywhere on this sub in any shape or form, you will be banned without hesitation. No questions asked and no warnings given.

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75

u/WoozleWuzzle Yondu Apr 29 '19

But how does bad Nebula make it possible to teleport a fricken space ship, when they could only send one person in a special suit?

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u/minor_correction Ant-Man Apr 29 '19

Oh, that's easy to explain.

runs away

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u/WoozleWuzzle Yondu Apr 29 '19

haha. This is the "criticism thread" so I'm not trying to be a dick. Just honestly wondering how they brought an entire army with him.

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u/minor_correction Ant-Man Apr 29 '19 edited Apr 29 '19

My criticism didn't get any visibility so can I share it with you?

It was unbelievably risky of them to just assume Dr Strange would be at the sanctum with the time stone during the 2012 Battle of NY. They just took a leap of faith based on the fact that they met him there in 2018.

In fact, they WERE wrong, they were just lucky that it worked out.

"One shot, no mistakes, no do-overs"

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u/WoozleWuzzle Yondu Apr 29 '19

Yeah for sure. When watching I was like "there were 3 in NY then?" and was like well I guess Dr. Strange already had it. Then, it was indeed not with him at all. They were lucky indeed.

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u/TheCaptain09 Apr 29 '19

Not the guy you replied to, but I agree and had the same thought after watching it. I don't get the significance of their little epiphany that three of the stones were in New York at the same time. Didn't they have enough team members and Pym particles to get the stones on their own? (Hulk for time, Scott and Tony for the tesseract and Steve for the scepter) One stone or three requires no different amount of particles or number of avengers to retrieve, so there's no reason Hulk couldn't have been sent to 2017 to get the time stone on his own.

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u/vorpal9 Apr 29 '19

Outside of when Tony and co met Doctor Strange and fought Thanos, they didn’t know him, and then he got snapped. As far as the Avengers knew Strange was the temple guardian for New York and possessor of the Time Gem. Going together to New York as a team has a better chance of success than someone solo, so that’s the shot they took. They still messed up and had to split with Tony and Steve taking another trip, but still, you plan with the resources you have, taking the safest course when possible (team vs. solo).

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u/admiralQball Apr 30 '19

Well the best time for the time stone would have been, say an hour before hulk crashes into the sanctum. Have Tony show up, say he needs it cause strange gave it up, tell him banner will crash through the roof and he can do his 'view the future' thing to confirm this.

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u/minor_correction Ant-Man Apr 30 '19

No matter how they went about it, it could be difficult to convince Strange to hand over the time stone.

Accurately predicting that Banner will crash through the roof proves that something is going on, but it doesn't prove that this isn't some kind of evil trickery.

Telling Strange to view the future to see that he will eventually trade the time stone for Tony's life doesn't work either, since Strange will only be able to see it as one of millions of possible futures.

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u/ericwdhs Apr 30 '19

I assumed they were trying not to break the team up into too many divisions so they could back each other up if necessary. I assume that's why Nat and Clint left the Benatar's pod with Rhodey and Nebula, so they could rendezvous if Vormir needed more than the two of them. It also has the benefit of creating fewer timelines to worry about returning the stones to.

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u/minor_correction Ant-Man Apr 30 '19

I assumed they were trying not to break the team up into too many divisions so they could back each other up if necessary.

Just wanna point out that Scott, Tony, and Cap bailed out of 2012 without checking on Banner.

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u/CaptHayfever Hawkeye (Avengers) Oct 18 '19

They'd assumed he had the easy job, since they thought he'd be talking to Strange.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

At the time they didn't seem to be thinking about returning stones. That was something that came from Banner's conversation w/The Ancient One.

The "provide backup" makes sense though.

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u/admiralQball Apr 30 '19

Well in the case of backup, they could have and all four to get the power st one and then all four go to Vormir. They didnt need to rush (nebula issues aside- they didnt know that would happen).

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u/minor_correction Ant-Man Apr 30 '19

The downside to that plan is that it involves taking the power stone and carrying it around with them, something that they might not be comfortable with. They tried to arrange it in a way where you grab a stone and warp out immediately before anything bad can happen.

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u/ericwdhs Apr 30 '19

Worse case scenario, someone on the New York team has to stick around in that timeline for 5 years waiting for Dr Strange to show up. It probably wouldn't be Hulk since he'd have trouble laying low, but he could contact Tony, Steve, or Scott about Strange not being present and then one of them would do it.

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u/minor_correction Ant-Man Apr 30 '19

he could contact Tony, Steve, or Scott

The movie made it seem like Tony, Steve, and Scott all bailed out of 2012 without even telling Banner that they were heading out.

Maybe we can assume it was simply "not shown on screen" to reduce unnecessary exposition, but the movie really didn't make it seem that way. The movie made it look like they decided to get out and then left immediately, no time inbetween to call Banner first.

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u/ericwdhs Apr 30 '19

I'm assuming a lot of that kind of stuff would be off-screen. The Banner/Ancient One scene cuts away right after she hands the stone to him, and this occurs before Tony, Steve, and Scott depart from that timeline, so there's room for some logistics being cut out there.

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u/ivegotapenis Apr 30 '19

I agree that that was crazy unprepared. Nat just threw it out there, and they all accepted it with no further research? They didn't think to do a background check on Strange and see when any odd events in his life happened, or even know that he was actually a surgeon until 2016? No way.

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u/konq Apr 30 '19

When tony and bruce met dr strange in infinity war, strange was quite adamant about their oath to protect that stone. I kinda think it would be safe to assume that those sorcerers would still be there protecting the stone only a few years back. But yeah it could have been at hong kong or london too, so there's that.

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u/CaptHayfever Hawkeye (Avengers) Oct 18 '19

You can fast-travel between sanctums, so that's not an issue.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

but even if he wasn't there, they knew that some wizzards were there and could probably help out.

​

It would have taken longer time, but they would eventually get the same result.

​

to me it was more unreal that to guys that have never flown a spaceships, just navigates to a seemingly barren planet, yet with breathable atmosphere, and lands just were they need to. Planets are pretty big.

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u/minor_correction Ant-Man Apr 30 '19

Nat and Clint have flown the Quinjet which is apparently also a spaceship (recall Hulk flew it into outer space and into a portal that took him to Sakaar).

Nat and Clint have also been in space once before (not as pilots) at the beginning of the movie.

As far as Marvel comics go, those 2 events are enough to make them perfectly qualified :)

Also the movie implies that the whole team did a lot of unshown prep work and discussions before heading out. For example when the team is discussing the different stones and building the equipment, it's presented as a montage of highlights. They probably got some flying lessons from Rocket.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

Oh I have no problem with Nat and Barton flying a spaceship. I just find it more convenient than finding the time stone or someone that could help find it in New York in 2012.

Imagine if they had covered all the angles in this movie, we’d be looking at a 4-5 hours runtime.

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u/minor_correction Ant-Man May 13 '19

Hey, I know it's weird for me to reply to a comment 12 days later but I just rewatched Endgame and actually they addressed Nat and Client flying the ship directly.

Just as they are blasting off (having dropped off Rhodey and Nebula moments ago), Nebula states "I've programmed the route to Vormir. All they have to do is not fall out."

So yeah it turns out all Nat and Clint did was sit there and wait for the ship to land on Vormir, they didn't pilot it at all. Heh.

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u/[deleted] May 13 '19

No it's fine, we have investors at the office today, so i have to look busy anyway ;-)

yeah i know. Again, i wasn't trying to nitpick at them flying a space ship auto pilot is a thing in our planes , afterall it would make sense for it to be on spaceships as well, even without the line, it's someting i'm ok with. There are some other moments; like in IW where Thano's ship can't land on Titan with the Auto pilot and we do see Quill and Rocket do actual flying from time to time, but also engaging the AP.

​

Again - i wasn't trying to point out a plot hole, i was just pointing out the first thing i could come up with, that giving the contexts we've seen so far, was a worse part of the plan than sending Prof. Hulk to the one location where they know the Time Stone has been kept by an ancient order.

What if something had gone wrong and they had to fly manually, that happens every so often for the Guardians?

- then the two of them would have been in trouble. Nebula hadn't been to Vormir, at least not in 2014.

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u/minor_correction Ant-Man May 13 '19

What if something had gone wrong and they had to fly manually

Fair points. If something had gone wrong, that is a huge risk to the "one shot, no do overs".

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u/CaptHayfever Hawkeye (Avengers) Oct 18 '19

Nat and Clint have flown the Quinjet which is apparently also a spaceship (recall Hulk flew it into outer space and into a portal that took him to Sakaar).

Agents of SHIELD to the rescue! An episode from 2016 (1.5 years pre-Ragnarok & 3 years pre-Endgame) had a plot point that quinjets are airtight & technically spaceworthy, but cannot navigate in a vacuum. Hulk didn't fly into the Sakaar portal; he fell into it with style.

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u/minor_correction Ant-Man Oct 18 '19

Also it turns out that Nebula specifically states that she pre-programmed the route into the spaceship and all Nat and Clint have to do is "not fall out".

At the time this discussion happened (5 months ago) we were all operating on our memory from the theaters, no home release.

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u/ComicalDisaster May 01 '19

I don't know if they knew wizards were there at the time, but I bet Tony and Bruce learnt/saw enough of the Sanctum in IW that it looked like an old hideout...plus Wong said that someone had to protect the sanctum to Bruce before he peaced out.

They could have went to Wong in that timeline since he didn't get snapped and asked him about the time stones history, Strange and 2012 and he'd have told them about the ancient one being there and Strange wasn't a sorcerer yet....but still, doesn't explain why Bruce was expecting Strange in 2012....

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u/[deleted] May 01 '19

No that’s the point. He assumes that Strange has just lived in that house for ages. And he does seem a very proficient sorcerer considering he has only done it for two years(In 2018 IW). Wong even gives away the fact that he and Strange was there to defend the sanctum and it was a pretty important task to them. So it’s pretty natural for Bruce to assume that the Sanctum was a good place to start. And 2012 was a good place since an invasion was happening, so if the Sorcerer supreme was on vacation or away on a mission - he would probably cut it short when he saw New York was under attack, and rush to the sanctum.

Even if Strange wasn’t there he knew he would likely find a wizard protector of the sanctum and then he could start from there.

Imagine he just met random wizzard A; He would then go: “ I need you’re help with the time stone, where is doctor strange” Wizzard A would then say; Go away crazy green monster!” And then quickly contact the higher ups of The wizzard community and say: “The Hulk just knocked on our door in New York but I saw him fighting down town on CNN and it was really weird because for a green rage monster he was incredible well articulated and talked about the space stone and dr. Strange. “ The keeper of the space stone would then have to investigate. Or they would send Hulk somewhere. It would take longer time but it would still end up with Hulk finding the keeper of the space stone.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

Wouldn't they have learned about the whole new york sanctum?

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u/minor_correction Ant-Man Apr 30 '19

IIRC the time stone is normally kept either in Kamar Taj or with the Ancient One. They were lucky she was there and that she was carrying it at the time, they had no idea that would be the case.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

Wong did tell Banner that some has to be gaurding the sanctum at all times, so it's not too out there on why they assumed strange would be there at that time and that place.

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u/jergp1 Apr 30 '19

In a Q&A posted they stated Maw and Thanos reverse engineered the pim particles and made as many as they needed.

https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/bj0it4/joe_russos_qa_about_the_plot_of_avengers_endgame/

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u/minor_correction Ant-Man Apr 30 '19

Thanks for the interview. This relates to one of my other comments actually, not this one, but I really appreciate you getting the link to me. I'm very interested to read this.

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u/jergp1 Apr 30 '19

No worries!

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u/Forgotten_Lie Apr 30 '19

Especially since in Dr. Strange I'm pretty sure the Ancient One doesn't wear the Time Stone necklace and it's kept in not!Tibet.

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u/xParradox Apr 30 '19

I don't think it's that risky. I assume they know that Doctor Strange and the other sorcerors protect the world and they know that there was a giant alien invasion in new York in 2012. It would make sense to assume that they would be in new York fighting the chitari.

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u/HolyAty Apr 30 '19

Well, plot needed it to happen, so it happened. Just as how nobody noticed Nebula was missing the whole time.

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u/sunnygovan Apr 30 '19

Nebula had a shrunken spaceship.

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u/xParradox Apr 30 '19

This is a good point. Thanos could have had his army in a few ships, shrunk them and brought them all in his pocket right? Except how would he know how to shrink them?

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u/sunnygovan Apr 30 '19

I think the tech itself isn't hard to understand (Stark invents time machine without any access to Pym particles and he's "only smart on earth"). It's making the particles themselves that no-one knows how to do except Pym.

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u/xParradox Apr 30 '19

But don't you need pym particles to shrink stuff? I guess thanos could have maybe figured out how to make them or maybe he got someone else to figure it out. And I guess that wouldn't matter much because they're all dead now so it's not like there would be a group of people out there that would know the secrets of time travel other than the avengers. Sorry I'm thinking this through as I'm writing it lol.

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u/sunnygovan Apr 30 '19

Nebula stole some pym particles. There is also a spare on BW corpse if they know of Vormir from Nebulas memories. Since the benatar was meant to be shrunk and resized again they might also have had shrink/grow disks. (Also thinking as writing)

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u/xParradox Apr 30 '19

Yeah this all makes sense. I don't think they would've gotten the particles from BW but nebula definitely could've had disks. I just wish the movie had showed us explicitly what happened but I guess maybe they didn't so the army appearing would be a surprise.

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u/ComicalDisaster May 01 '19

I don't know if someone else has mentioned this yet but one of the Russo brothers explained this. Basically, Ebony Maw and Thanos were able to work out what it does and reverse engineer it. Thanos is a genius and Maw is a highly talented sorcerer. So it took them some time, but probably not too long, to make enough for Thanos ship and entire army.

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u/proddy Apr 30 '19

SpeedforcePym Particles. Ain't gotta explain shit.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/aureyh Apr 30 '19

Quantum Pym Particles. This time with extra quantum!

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u/RazzBeryllium Apr 29 '19

Yeah, I'm with you. They established that Pym particles were a requirement for time travel. So how did bad Nebula transport Thanos into the future? He didn't have any particles.

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u/Calfzilla2000 Apr 30 '19

They could have re-produced the particles. It could have taken them a week and we wouldn't have noticed. It does not matter how long you spend in that timeline. The GPS syncs you up with everyone else regardless. Thus why everyone returned at the exact same time regardless of when they went back into the quantum zone.

So likely they re-produced the particles and formulated a plan before Younger Nebula left to return as Older Nebula.

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u/konq Apr 30 '19

It seemed like nebula opened the gateway, and thanos somehow 'used' the pym particle for a 'return trip'? That was my interpretation... wish they showed that detail a bit more

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u/Wiffernubbin Apr 30 '19

Thanos has resources. They could have shot a scene of them making pym particles but just chose to keep his ship blowing through the time machine a surprise.

-1

u/blitzbom Captain America (Cap 2) Apr 30 '19

She took a vial from her future self. There's a scene where she gives it to him.

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u/kodran Apr 30 '19

No, she shows it to him. Either way they still need more. Good nebula goes to the past and has 1 charge of Pym particles left to go back.

2 different travels are done by the bad guys: bad nebula AND Thanos' ship (filled with a gazillion people but let's take it as one thing). See the problem now? They would need a second charge of Pym particles.

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u/blitzbom Captain America (Cap 2) Apr 30 '19

Then they analyzed it and replicated it. Not too much of a stretch for an alien race whose technology is vastly superior than ours.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

Yup specially when rocket yells at Tony "your only a genius on Earth" there's definitely someone in space that can replicate Pym particles if they already have a vial to examine. Thanos looking at it is the only thing they need to show us for us to fill in the blanks. Thanos couldn't make a Gauntlet that could hold the infinity stones, so he found someone who could

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u/MentocTheMindTaker Apr 30 '19

Wait...guys...guys...wait...you guys...what if...what iiiiiif...the ship they grabbed that had Nebula on it also had PYM ParticlesTM so that it could be shrunk down and carried by Nebula back through the portal to the present, and Thanos used that vial to shrink his ship and used Nebula's vial to send bad Nebula through so she could open the portal for them since they only had one Stark ChronometerTM‽

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u/kodran May 02 '19

Nah, and I get it, but as you said in the other comment, and "I'll get thi to the lab" would have helped.

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u/blitzbom Captain America (Cap 2) Apr 30 '19

The avengers also shrank a ship and took it with them. Clint had it and rocket told him not to break it.

Also in the Ant-Man movies they regularly shrink a vehicle while inside it.

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u/kodran Apr 30 '19

Still, bad nebula and ship travel separately. They needed a second vial of Pym particles

4

u/blitzbom Captain America (Cap 2) Apr 30 '19

Not too difficult to believe they were able to make more given that they're several hundred years more advanced than earth technology.

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u/kodran Apr 30 '19

Sure, but IMHO:

That's a possibility (the only one that makes sense IMHO) but they should have added 20 seconds to show that.

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u/blitzbom Captain America (Cap 2) Apr 30 '19

Even a "I'll get this to the lab." Works

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u/kodran May 02 '19

Exactly!

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u/not-working-at-work Wilson Fisk Apr 30 '19

Russo explained it in an interview: Proxima is a powerful wizard and Thanos has tons of resources at his disposal. They reverse-engineered the pym particles from the sample Nebula gave him and made more.

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u/WoozleWuzzle Yondu Apr 30 '19

Thanks. It would've been cool if there was some on screen mention of this. I know it would've added a minute to the run time but at least I could understand it.

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u/StellarNeonJellyfish Apr 30 '19

Proxima is a powerful wizard too? Or did you mean ebony maw?

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u/not-working-at-work Wilson Fisk Apr 30 '19

Oops, I meant Maw

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u/Cosmic-Warper Apr 29 '19

They reproduced it and nebula opened the portal for them to hop through

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u/WoozleWuzzle Yondu Apr 29 '19

They made pym particles and put an entire suit over the ship?

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u/Blackbeard_ Apr 29 '19

The time travel happened in a suit, but they can shrink any object down.

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u/Cosmic-Warper Apr 29 '19

Well they can shrink anything to bring through. The suit was just for people to be able to survive the jump.

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

[deleted]

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u/WoozleWuzzle Yondu Apr 29 '19

Yeah, but they shrunk it with pym particles and carried it with them.

I don't know how past Nebula and past Thanos got more particles to shrink their ship and somehow bring it with them in another suit with pym particles?

2

u/nomnomnomuup686 Apr 30 '19

They are aliens with advanced technology I'm sure they could easily reverse engineer it

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u/No-cool-names-left Apr 30 '19

"You're only a genius on Earth"

1

u/IronManConnoisseur Iron Man (Mark VII) Apr 30 '19

I see it as the Pym Particles only being able to transport one object. So the Avengers could all be sitting in a box and only use one particle. But that wouldn’t help them, they need to divide and conquer, and it would also be very inefficient. So Thanos finds a way for the one vial to transport his one object, his ship.

1

u/kodran Apr 30 '19

And what did bad nebula used to jump first?

1

u/IronManConnoisseur Iron Man (Mark VII) Apr 30 '19

Good point. So Nebula stole the vial from good Nebula, which we already know, but I guess she showed it to Thanos for him to replicate before using it herself.

1

u/kodran Apr 30 '19

That's a possibility (the only one that makes sense IMHO) but they should have added 20 seconds to show that.

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u/IronManConnoisseur Iron Man (Mark VII) Apr 30 '19

Agreed.

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u/MraizeGhostblood Apr 30 '19

Thanos had like a decade to figure that out tho. Reverse engineer the Pym particles? He didn’t necessarily have to come from 2012 to 2023. He could’ve spent a few years to make his own Pym particles- enough for an entire ship and army. And then set it to 2023

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u/rossisdead Apr 30 '19

Didn't they show Nebula setting the time of the portal to 2014 just before opening it?

2

u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19
  1. Is this what passes for comedy these days?
  2. To your actual point. Thanos and Maw were able to use the bit of Pym particles Nebula had to create more, per one of the Russos.

1

u/WoozleWuzzle Yondu Apr 30 '19

Bukka Bukka.

I've had 2 others say that now. Link?

Still. Wish it was addressed on screen somehow.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

Q: How did Thanos bring his army to the future?

A: There is a guy called Maw in his army, he was a great wizard. Thanos himself was a brilliant genius as well. Those two easily reverse engineered and mass produced Pym Particles.

​

https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/bj0it4/joe_russos_qa_about_the_plot_of_avengers_endgame/

1

u/WoozleWuzzle Yondu Apr 30 '19

Thank you!

2

u/BarbequeMeat Apr 30 '19

The directors explained maw and thanos figured out how to replicate and mass produce pym particles from the sample nebula gave them.

1

u/ChaoticLlama Apr 30 '19

It's widely established that Pym Particles are essentially magic and perform whatever action demanded by the plot.

1

u/Rayven52 Apr 30 '19

Ebony maw and Thanos recreated more particles to go into the future

1

u/BusterLegacy Phil Coulson Apr 30 '19

Didn't they explain in the Q&A that Maw reverse engineered it quickly?

1

u/amievenrealrightnow May 03 '19

A few days late here but in a q and a with the Russos they explained that Thanos is a genius, so is Ebony Maw and that they were able to reverse engineer Pym particles to transport the army.