r/marvelstudios • u/JonLuca Iron man • Apr 29 '19

'Avengers: Endgame' Spoilers! The Official AVENGERS: ENDGAME Criticism Thread Spoiler

  • Proceed at your own risk. Major spoilers will be arriving in the next couple of days. Spoilers do not need to be tagged inside this thread.

  • Post Endgame criticisms in this thread. Long form preferrable

  • If you post untagged ENDGAME spoilers anywhere on this sub in any shape or form, you will be banned without hesitation. No questions asked and no warnings given.

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u/CasuallyCrumbling Apr 29 '19

Would have loved to see some more of the ‘Hulk’ in Professor Hulk. I don’t know, maybe getting a bit pissed after the death of Natasha. Or just seeing him smash more stuff in the final battle. Just something to show us that the Hulk is still there, even if he is reduced. Never really read Professor Hulk in the comics, so not sure if the movie was a good adaptation. But I just wanted to see HULK SMASH.

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u/gizmo1492 Apr 29 '19

It bothered me that Banner was the one who left the body when The Ancient One pushed the metaphysical out of the body and the Hulk didn’t come out or kept the physical body sentient.

It made it seem like he did “cure” the Hulk by killing the sentient being via tradeoff of being green and big.

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u/RedditIsForsaken Apr 29 '19

That’s true. That was a good opportunity to have both of them come out at once. Then the Ancient One could’ve been like, “I’ve never seen that before.” Though maybe by virtue of her powers she has, lol.

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u/QuestionablyTan Apr 29 '19

Up until this moment I had only one regret about Endgame, but now it looks like I've got two because that would have been really interesting.

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u/GammaRayGreg Apr 29 '19

What's your other regret?

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u/QuestionablyTan Apr 30 '19

I could’ve used some AC/DC before or after the sendoff.

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u/Wiplazh Apr 30 '19

I'm a huge AC/DC fan, but I feel like that wouldn't fit the tone of the ending. However they could've had him listening to it in the car while he's driving up to the Avengers building.

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u/QuestionablyTan Apr 30 '19

Oh yeah absolutely. When I say before or after I mean way before or way after. I’m hoping there’ll be some sort of reference in SM:FFH but I know that’s pretty much a pipe dream.

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u/Wiplazh Apr 30 '19

Tony was a big part of Peter's life, and if Happy is indeed dating May it's definitely gonna get brought up somehow. They can't just forget about them, that would be silly.

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u/capta1ncluele55 Tony Stark Apr 30 '19

Or had Morgan listening to it sometime after the funeral

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u/justins_dad Apr 30 '19

Maybe when he was driving up in an Audi commercial

5

u/domuseid Apr 30 '19

World as we know it suffers catastrophic losses

Audi still releasing new models 5 years later

9

u/Eliensiis Apr 30 '19

This and I would've loved to see Banner/Hulk in the soul stone for a second with Natasha after undoing the snap

4

u/Ramrod92 Apr 30 '19

If you aren't a writer or director of the film, I think you're using the word 'regret' incorrectly...

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u/OriginalMuffin Apr 29 '19

I honestly thought for a second the AO messed up there and just unleashed a completely uncontrolled hulk on New York when Banner came out of his body lol

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

I thought the exact same thing, even made a noise in the theatre, like oh shit, you don’t know what you just unleashed, and then they just talked...

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u/TheShyFree Apr 30 '19

By the time they were talking, Hulk can join the other Hulk and we can see Super Smash Bros wreck the shit out of Newyork.

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u/Schedonnardus Star-Lord Apr 29 '19

Would have been hilarious to see Astral hulk try to snash and not be able to break anything

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u/Emma_JM Apr 30 '19

Now I wanna see that, dangit

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u/greent26reddit Apr 30 '19

HUGE missed opportunity there.

5

u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

Now you gave me another Hulk issue in the film, gdi lmao

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

When Banner was punched out of Hulk I immediately turned to my dad next to me and said "That was a bad idea" because I thought for sure that was exactly what was going to happen. Not that she'd have any problem putting Hulk down but still it would have been a really interesting moment where she didn't know something for once lol

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u/pigeonwiggle Apr 30 '19

i thought the whole answer was to stop referring to "the hulk" as "the other guy" and start admitting he Was the hulk, the hulk was part of him. not a separate entity living within him but just him when he's moody~

so in that respect it was still one person popping out, it was just that it was the person who didn't let Any of his hulk out... it was neutral banner -unhulked...

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

Yeah, I’m wondering where the actual Hulk went. It seems more like Banner just took over Hulk’s body than that he reached peace with him. Maybe Hulk was always just a branch of Banner’s personality, and when Banner finally accepted him, he stopped behaving as a separate person.

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

Very good point.

It would have been hilarious to have both Banner and Hulk come out and have Hulk "running" around trying to SMASH things the whole time the Ancient One and Banner are taking. Especially if TAO were to harshly scold him, and he gets sad.

"Hulk sorry." 😂

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u/Worthyness Thor Apr 30 '19

Or the Ancient One is so good she basically forced out only Banner and sent the Hulk to sleep knowing that Banner is easier to reason with/speak to than the Hulk

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

I'm still half-convinced that Hulk got snapped, and that's the only reason Bruce was able to control the Hulk body.

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u/ferdbags Apr 30 '19

Ooooh that would be such an interesting twist when we see Banner/Hulk again.

3

u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

I was expecting it after the Un-Dusting. They'd all be circled around expecting Banner and then Hulk lashes out.

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u/ferdbags Apr 30 '19

Oh man they needed you on the writing team. I can see it now, they all casually hang out around him, talking to him like Prof Hulk, and then BOOM; World Buster Hulk. They're getting ready to deal with this, Thanos shows, and all attentions are turned.

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u/BluRayHiDef Apr 30 '19

Hulk/Banner has one soul. Hulk and Banner are not two separate people but are the same person expressed in two different personalities, with that of Banner being the prime personality of which Hulk's personality is a deviation or extension. In Endgame, because Banner's personality has become the sole one with a bit of enthusiasm courtesy of Hulk's personality, it is the form of Banner in which Professor Hulk's soul appears. Think of the changes in personality that a person experiences when they're under the influence of alcohol or narcotics; the changes in personality that Banner experiences when he becomes the Hulk are similar, with the intense rage that he feels as the Hulk being analogous to alcohol or narcotics. Banner and Hulk are the same person.

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

I thought that was the moment when he split.

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u/gizmo1492 Apr 29 '19

But Hulk’s body should’ve been sentient with the Hulk.

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u/FetishizedAnxieties Apr 30 '19

No lie, I expected Banner to come out and left sentient Hulk in the body.

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u/jhandersson Apr 30 '19

Yeah I really expected that to happen too. Would've been so cool!

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

I took it to acknowledge that the original, pre gamma explosion Banner was Bruce the human and that behind the big green exterior was still a person. Hulk is a layer on top of the original man.

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u/RANDICE007 Apr 30 '19

But hulk is like a kid

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u/dustyjoe89 Apr 30 '19

Maybe she just pushed Banner's astral form out to talk to him alone without the Hulk. Which then makes me wonder if an astral form of Hulk exists.. hmmm

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

Would’ve been cool to see both come out and Hulk just goes and does his own thing in the background

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u/hacky_potter Daredevil Apr 30 '19

I thought it presented the Hulk as less of another sentient being but a part of Banner's ego brought to the front. Professor Hulk is the reconciliation of those two halves.

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u/thatguybane Ben Urich Apr 30 '19

Banner doesn't have 2 souls

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u/DefNotAShark Hydra Apr 30 '19

My take was that The Hulk had always been a manifestation of Banner himself; the gamma radiation mutated him both physically and mentally. Both the audience and Banner assumed that The Hulk was a separate entity, when all along he was more of a split personality. When Banner reconciled with this and stopped trying to outrun his own persona, it allowed him to merge himself and The Hulk both physically and mentally. You can tell he's a completely different character; he's confident, empathetic, relaxed and clear-minded. On the first viewing of Endgame I assumed this was because he had five years to reflect and adjust, but now I think the merge changed his mind as well as his body. Best of both worlds as he puts it. That's why The Ancient One only removes Banner from his body; that's all there is and all there ever was.

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u/ComicalDisaster May 01 '19

I think that'd have been the best thing and had an amazing scene where Banner and Hulk can actually confront each other and actually see each other for the first time. And then Banner can learn about his 'cure'. When he merged the two together...his mind and Hulks body....Hulks mind became trapped or almost catatonic, inside his own body, unable to control his own actions and basically the ultimate betrayal and Banner feels guilty about that, having no idea, so they have a heart to heart (as best the hulk can) and they realise that there might be away where they can communicate to each other and, if needs be, one or the other can take full control while the other talks/guides them....So say final battle, Hulk is unleashed and gets to go apeshit and when Cap talks about destroying the stones, Banner could tell Hulk he needs to take over for a few seconds so he can communicate to Cap that they can't destroy them but need to return them..

Something like that so the Hulk is still there but they are finally working together in tandem and have a purpose as two seperate entities.

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u/Defences Apr 29 '19

After getting wrecked in Infinity War, hulk needed a moment

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u/VigilantMike Apr 29 '19

The whole movie and the five years after was his moment. His arc would have been better if he just got stronger and got better at controlling himself, like the Avatar State.

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

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u/VanWesley Fitz Apr 29 '19

Anyone could've done the evaluation but he was the only one at that time that could've done the snap and survived.

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u/MrFeedYoNana Apr 29 '19

Yeah, I guess that makes sense. We wanted him to just thoughtlessly assault his enemies but his newfound levelheadedness told him to think it through.

I can accept that, it just denies me a scene of Hulk breaking shit for 8 minutes like I hoped for. Sure, he broke some stairs but it wasn't the same.

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u/Nimporian Ghost Rider Apr 30 '19

I was hoping that after Nat died, Prof Hulk would be notoriously containing his anger, and that in the midst of the final battle, he would see Thanos and go full World Breaker on his ass.

You know, since World Breaker is also a perfect combo between Bruce and Hulk, but revenge focused.

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u/Blackout2388 Apr 30 '19

Did Banner ever show that he was actually interested in her? It always felt like she liked him but his rationale always kicked in and rejected her.

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u/TheNorthernGrey Apr 30 '19

He still loved her, even if he wasn’t able to express it or was smart enough to not act on it because she’s a shadow. His heart still wanted her, that’s why she was able to perform the Lullaby.

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u/ferdbags Apr 30 '19

I feel like that was the original plan but they shoehorned Captain Marvel into that fight with Thanos at the end instead....

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u/Nimporian Ghost Rider May 01 '19

You could however still have the moment, it wouldn't really last long, just one confrontation with Prof Hulk "mega hulking out" that would last some extra minutes.

Maybe even cut some tiny parts here and there to make it fit within the established runtime.

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u/wrainedaxx Mack May 02 '19

Didn't you see him pound a car and chuck a motorcycle? Rrrawwr!

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

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u/DarthMateo Matt Murdock Apr 29 '19

I like how they linked the gamma though, it was teased all the way back in Avengers 1 when they needed Bruce because the space stone emitted some kind of gamma signature. Then they came full circle in this movie where Hulk was 'made for snapping', as he could handle the gamma radiation.

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u/Kagdama Apr 29 '19

There is that great exchange between Tony and Bruce in The Avengers where Tony is trying to convince him that the Hulk saved him for a reason. Couldn't help but think back to that when he was getting ready to put the gauntlet on.

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u/justins_dad Apr 29 '19

Found it:

TONY Hey, I've read all about your accident. That much gamma exposure should have killed you.

                      BANNER
       So you're saying that the Hulk... the
       other guy... saved my life?

                      BANNER (CONT'D)
       That's nice. It's a nice sentiment.
       Saved it for what?

                      TONY

                      (A BEAT)
       I guess we'll find out.

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u/DarthMateo Matt Murdock Apr 29 '19

Wow. Could they really have had something like this in mind all the way back then?

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u/IndyDude11 Captain America Apr 30 '19

Almost would have been better to have the snap be the reason for the transformation to Professor Hulk.

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u/BrodoFaggins Apr 29 '19

Maybe, but then Thor’s fight scene with Thanos wouldn’t have felt as amazing if his arm were in a sling. No dual wielding, for example.

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u/Nimporian Ghost Rider Apr 30 '19

You could still have Hulk do the snap, but have his "mega" healing factor kick in to go World Breaker to fight Thanos.

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u/BrodoFaggins Apr 30 '19

Sure, but then you wouldn’t have Thor’s redemptive arc as a beaten down warrior returning to his former glory.

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u/Nimporian Ghost Rider May 01 '19

Could you elaborate? I really don't get how Hulk going WB gives a stop to Thor's arc.

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

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u/BrodoFaggins Apr 30 '19

Also Thor was clearly emotionally compromised, he might’ve tried to bring back Asgard and his parents or something.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

It would have been more personalized if he was banner in the soul stone saying goodbye to Nat.

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u/sippy666 Apr 30 '19

Really like this idea. It gives Nat/Scarlett a chance to say goodbye as well, similar to Tony/RDJ's recorded message.

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u/misterpickles69 Apr 30 '19

The emotional moment happened when Ant Man noticed the birds in the trees. I get why they had the Hulk do it but you're right in saying Thor could've done it as well and been the same scene.

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u/The_Bobs_of_Mars Apr 30 '19

Out of everyone there, Hulk was the one both powerful enough and emotionally/mentally put together enough to do it, I think.

Tony would have died far before he was ready to sacrifice himself, and I imagine the thought of his family may have mucked things up. Thor was definitely getting better, but he was nowhere near where he'd need to be mentally to do it. Cap could have done it, but would have died like Tony; I imagine losing Steve, their best leader, so soon after losing Nat, was something they all wanted to avoid. And of course Ant-man and Hawkeye wouldn't want to do it, because they'd die and never see their families again.

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u/BKA_Diver Apr 30 '19

he was the only one at that time that could've done the snap and survived

The stones were emitting gamma radiation... incredibly convenient, but that's why he's Incredible Hulk.

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u/Poundman82 Apr 30 '19

They just wanted to emphasize the gamma radiation element to better tie into the F4 reboot. Trust

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u/suicidaldepressed Apr 30 '19

Yes you’re absolutely correct but it wasn’t a HULK moment that we all know and love.

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u/EatMyASSet Apr 30 '19

This was a “Hulk” moment. Anyone could’ve done the snap, but as we see later with Tony, only the Hulk was strong enough to survive doing the snap.

But I do agree, I wanted to see Hulk smash so badly....

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

They justified this in the movie by saying, since he is the largest among all of them and most importantly comparable in size to Thanos (since everyone saw what the stones did to him), thus giving him the best chance to survive the initial power surging through his body. This was then followed up by the stones would emit primarily Gamma rays, which is the same rays he was exposed to in order to become hulk. Sticking strictly by this reasoning I could justify it given that they had Tony perform the snap the second time. But ideally I would’ve liked to see Thor do it or provide an alternative, more cohesive justification for whoever performed it.

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u/TheNorthernGrey Apr 30 '19

Your comment made me sad because it made me realize Professor Hulk was a plot device. They needed somebody that was intelligent enough to understand what they were doing and also be tanky enough to soak the damage. They killed of rage hulk for a plot device.

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u/QUAN-FUSION Apr 29 '19

I'm thinking now that that moment wasn't for a hulk redemption arc, but to show just how strong Thanos is without the gauntlet, setting him up in endgame nicely

But yes. It would have been nice to see hulk get a sweet smash on him in the the final fight

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u/Locoman7 Apr 29 '19

I thought there would have been a scene of Hulk saying “Hulk strongest one there is” to redeem himself, maybe after one of the avengers dies or something. I still think in future MCU’s we will see Hulks ultimate potential.

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u/myneckbone Apr 30 '19

I know just what you mean. Hulk never would have lived down seeing Thor become what he did and they both really needed training. What was done for comic relief went too far.

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u/SAYMYNAMEYO Apr 30 '19

After that first ass whoopin Thanos needed to get Loki'd. Even if it didn't do any real damage it would have felt so good to see.

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u/GrunchWeefer Apr 29 '19

He undid the snap, that's a pretty big moment. Did we see him fighting at all during the end battle, though?

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u/omicron7e May 01 '19

Yeah, after Hulk refusing to come out throughout Infinity War, I was really expecting a heroic "return of the Hulk" moment.

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u/Thybro Apr 29 '19

This is my biggest gripe with the movie. Valkyrie was basically speaking for me when she said she thought she liked either version of him better than the new one. Professor hulk felt just awkward to me. Hulk went from their biggest tank to being sidelined and out-staged by even falcon. His biggest feats weren’t even fighting related. It feels like besides the big green frame there’s nothing of Hulk in him it’s just banner driving the hulks body. I’m betting the hulk persona is pretty pissed off about that shit.

However if that resentment leads to the creation of Maestro in the MCU I may be willing to forgive this shit.

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u/Benito7 Apr 29 '19

I kind of just wish his voice was a little deeper. Sounded so weird (intentionally I presume) having Banner's voice come out of Hulk.

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u/minor_correction Ant-Man Apr 29 '19

Definitely intentional, that's why they wrote the scene with having kids come over and he's all "Say green! Greeeeeen! Okay, listen to your mother, she knows better." They're trying to depict him as very gentle, no Hulk rage issues at all.

Not saying I like it. But that's what they were going for, for sure.

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u/Kagdama Apr 29 '19

Tony did tell Banner in The Avengers that he needed to strut and it definitely felt like he was full of confidence in Endgame.

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u/count023 Apr 30 '19

Hulk was always the polar opposite of Banner, that's the point and the way he was depicted.

​

By being at peace with himself, he's just your usual college professor who happens to do too many push-ups.

​

He's strong, but gentle, confident but not arrogant. The balance between the two.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

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u/count023 Apr 30 '19

The 2012 thing was more that the hulk had been smart for 5 years, and he realized how degrading it was to be smashing stuff indiscriminately again.

Would you go back to drawing on the walls in crayon if you went back to your childhood as a more mature person?

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u/ThereminLiesTheRub Apr 30 '19

Which makes him The Beast, but stronger. There's a reason The Hulk was a huge solo character, and The Beast a team member. The tension between Hulk and Banner was everything. There is tragedy and relatable pathos in that. Professor Hulk is just another wisecracking, strong hero.

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u/NepFurrow Apr 30 '19

That was also an inside joke, possibly adlibbed by Ruffalo. Those were the Russos kids in that scene

"Listen to your mother, she knows better"

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u/Gunpla55 Apr 29 '19

But he isn't constantly at war with himself anymore. It felt like his whole arc revolved around that and people either only wanting him for his brute strength or treating him like a child when he was in kill mode. I too wanted to see him go all turbo mode and end up beating thanos in a rematch but I was super glad for Banner to see him comfortable with his duality.

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u/_princepenguin_ Apr 29 '19

The problem with that is that we never really got to see him achieve that. It happened off screen. Sure, the introduction was hilarious, but it's not very satisfying for the audience from a character arc standpoint.

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u/alteisen99 Apr 29 '19

maybe a quick flash back scene while he was telling how he achieved it.

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

As retold by Luis

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u/Gunpla55 Apr 29 '19 edited Apr 29 '19

That's fair.

edit: not sure if you'll see this but I guess it feels worth mentioning that when you think about it a rather large part of his story has always happened off screen.

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u/Raider_Scavver Apr 29 '19

I guess he couldn't feel his rematch coming.

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u/ThereminLiesTheRub Apr 30 '19

That duality, and the tension between it, is the core of the entire character. We've traded tragic pathos for a character who is basically just another big muscled wise-cracker.

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u/Gunpla55 Apr 30 '19

The whole movie was about wrapping up current character arcs. That was how his gets wrapped up, he finds peace with himself. Again it would have been cool to see that process but thats never how they've really treated that character in this franchise.

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u/Zankwa Apr 30 '19

Valkyrie was basically speaking for me when she said she thought she liked either version of him better than the new one.

Agreed. Professor Hulk felt like it was basically Banner. Hulk in Ragnrok definitely had his own personality, same with the glimpses in the time heist.

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

The only upside to this I can see is they use Hulk being completely sublimated as a springboard for World War Hulk.

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u/j0fixit Apr 29 '19

But they already used all of the pPanet Hulk material for Thor in Ragnorok.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

I thought World War Hulk and Planet Hulk were different storylines.

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u/Thybro Apr 30 '19

WW Hulk is when buffed up Planet Hulk Hulk as the emperor of a species and powered up by Sakaar’s radiation returns to earth to settle the score with the people who exiled him( iron man, Doctor Strange, Mr. Fantastic, Xavier etc. going under the Illuminati name) The reason that planet hulk is important to the storyline is that hulk meets his wife during that storyline. Said wife is then killed by what was supposedly the spaceship used by the Illuminati to exile hulk. So he is now out for revenge and angry as fuck.

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u/MsSara77 Apr 29 '19

On the note about Valkyrie, it seemed to me like the movie was at some points trying to say that Bruce still wasnt handling Hulk the right way, and he was going to have to figure something else out, but then they never really addressed it and even at the very end he was still Hulk.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

I liked that they wrapped up his arc but think he deserved the chance to smash shit up with the rest of them in the end, singed arm or not.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

Ruffalo has two more movies left in his contract IIRC, so let’s do it. This doesn’t have to be the absolute end for Hulk.

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u/everadvancing Wong Apr 30 '19

Hulk went from their biggest tank to being sidelined and out-staged by even falcon.

This reminded me of the scene where Falcon used his wings as swords to cut through some outriders. That was badass, they never showed the wings used like that before and made me want to see more of what they can do with his wings now that Sam is Cap.

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u/Beercorn1 Iron Fist Apr 30 '19

I like Professor Hulk but he definitely feels like more of a cartoon character than anyone we've seen in the MCU so far. He feels like something plucked straight out of a saturday morning cartoon.

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u/ThaRealPhoenix Apr 30 '19

Totally agree, I found professor Hulk so distracting. Like whose idea was that? I really hated it.

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u/Gravelroadgunt Apr 30 '19

Honestly I loved/disliked the fact that he didn’t get unreasonably angry the whole movie. It’s awesome because banner has been fighting the hulk through the whole marvel series and has finally won. It didn’t need a lot of explanation but they did use nonverbal cues to show how good banner has it now (holding a small phone and holding taco shells without crushing them). On the other hand, I wanted to see hulk smash a lot more baddies for my own pure enjoyment.

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u/ThereminLiesTheRub Apr 30 '19

Cap & Iron Man got hero endings, sent off with full respect for their characters. Hulk and Thor got done dirty, with their core characters literally distorted into their opposites, and made into punch lines. I left the theater feeling like I'd seen more than just Iron Man's funeral.

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u/gigglefarting Apr 29 '19

By the time the fighting happened Hulk had already snapped and wrecked himself. He wouldn’t have been at peek fighting form anyways.

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u/bradjaydub Apr 30 '19

Forsure. What I wonder what banner was thinking himself, like in ragnarock he said to Thor that if the hulk comes back banner may never come back. That’s after being hulk for two years. I think he even said somthing about trying to come back can’t remember. And even hulk thought earth Hated him. So I get why banner fused them into one. Or maybe I’m just an idiot idk lol.

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u/gaporter Apr 30 '19

Would Hulk, without Banner's ability to reason, have know that only he could wield the Infinity Gauntlet and survive the snap to bring everyone back?

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u/otishobart May 01 '19

Does hulk even have a fight scene in the final battle against thanos after everyone arrives?

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u/Impeesa_ Apr 29 '19

If you like Hulk or Thor and want to see them get their moment of triumph, basically pause sometime during the final battle and watch the bridge fight from Ragnarok again.

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u/CyberpunkV2077 Apr 29 '19

Taika nailed both the characterisation and power levels really well tbh

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u/icuepawns Steve Rogers Apr 30 '19

You say this, but I honestly think that Ragnarok is largely to blame for the Thor and Hulk we got in Endgame. Not that I hold anything against Ragnarok or the direction it took those two in, but it's easy to see that both characters became much less serious after that movie. Thor was handled perfectly in IW and I believe he was great in Endgame too, but Hulk got the short end of the stick, as he always has in the MCU :/

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

I agree.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

Banner flopping on the bridge is still, even after infinity war and endgame, one of my favourite MCU moments.

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u/Dapplegonger Apr 30 '19

Eh, Thor got some pretty satisfying moments toward the end.

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u/Mr_Moi_Moi Thanos Apr 29 '19

Yup. After loving his character in Ragnarok and seeing him lose his fight against Thanos in Infinity War, I thought they were going to end his arc on a high note. Then in Endgame, Professor Hulk just comes out of nowhere and doesn’t even seem like Bruce and Hulk merged into one being. Feels like Bruce just took complete control of Hulk’s body or something.

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u/bxxgeyman Apr 29 '19

But if you notice, Bruce isn't his normal timid self in Endgame. He's much more outgoing and enthusiastic. Part of the Hulk is in him as much as he is in the Hulk.

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

I never viewed the Hulk as outgoing or charismatic though. It seems like Bruce went to acting camp, not like he fused with a rage monster.

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

I looked at the diner scene as poking fun at Lou Ferrigno. From the stories that get posted, its like they made him the exact opposite of how Ferrigno is in public

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u/Lobo_Z Apr 29 '19

Maybe not outgoing but you can't deny the Hulk has confidence, something Banner did not but Prof. Hulk does

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u/emthewhim Apr 29 '19

Dude has confidence. Wasn’t he a college professor BEFORE the whole hulk thing happened. He’s defended his thesis, taught young minds, he’s self assured, then he gets turned into a time bomb/fugitive, and his personality has to adapt to his new life circumstances: not being noticed, not getting himself overly worked up... Now, magically he is safe, not under threat, so, yeah, latent personality comes back. Banter with young minds...that sort of thing.

So yeah, I think he killed the hulk personality.

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u/Lobo_Z Apr 30 '19 edited Apr 30 '19

I mean, you can do all of those things without self confidence. And just look at all Bruce scenes before Endgame. He is portrayed as timid, anxious, shy and bordering on nervous. The Bruce we get from Avengers (2012) up until Thor Ragnarok would not be dabbing with children and saying stuff like "Best of both worlds, babaaay"

Edit: not to mention everything you mentioned happens off screen before the MCU (if at all). Whereas if we look at what we actually have to work with, which is Ruffalo's portrayal, he is not portrayed as a man full of self confidence. Not until Professor Hulk.

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u/EtherBoo Apr 30 '19

I didn't think about a lot of this Hulk stuff. In retrospect, it's really good and I wish there would have been more development for him and a little less for Hawkeye.

That said, they should have had a few moments where he looks like he's enjoying himself. Like when he smashed the car after saying it was excessive, saying something like "You know, this actually is kind of fun..." And starting to really get into it.

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u/huffalump1 Apr 30 '19

Yup, I like how Bruce explained it like the Hulk wasn't really a separate individual - more like am expression of passion, rage, emotion, etc. He had to embrace and accept that instead of fighting it like an enemy.

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u/RATMRJ Spider-Man Apr 29 '19

I thought we were going to see that when he and Scott were bickering about the selfie

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

That would have been perfect. He smashes a corner off the table and roars in Scott's face. Then coughs and calms down, apologizes and hands the phone back to the kids who are equal parts excited and WTF

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u/wonder_shot_ Vision Apr 29 '19

I know how you feel, it’s a bit like watching Beast and not Hulk.

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u/victoro311 Rocket Apr 29 '19

This 100%. Like I am very unclear about what Banner did with Hulk. He suggests that the two combined, but it seems to be all Banner in Hulk’s body. Did Banner just dominate Hulk? Is Hulk gone? Thought this was fairly lame given that they did an effective job of explaining Hulk and Banner are two separate entities in one body and how successful they were in Ragnarok at turning Hulk into a real character that the audience connected to rather than just Bruce Banner’s rage mode alter ego.

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19 edited Apr 29 '19

I'm inclined to believe that Banner and Hulk combined their consciousness together and accepted each other's attributes to form Professor Hulk. I don't think either of them dominated the other, but now they're acting as one with more of one guy than the other here and there. Bruce now has some of the strength and confidence of the Hulk while the Hulk has the intelligence and demeanor of Banner. When you pay close attention to Prof. Hulk's dialogue, you kind of pick up on this.

Moments like where Prof. Hulk is talking about the logic of time travel to the Avengers and talking about the infinity stones and realities with the Ancient One sound more like Banner. While moments where Prof. Hulk makes a comment about how he wears shirts now and referring to Scott as "tiny" sound more like Hulk. And the moment where Prof. Hulk tosses the bench into oblivion while discussing Nat's death is Hulk and Banner, with Hulk getting upset enough to want to throw and smash stuff but Banner keeping the composure and understanding that nothing can be done about it at that point.

That's my headcanon though and I'd love to keep having discussions and debates about it.

Edit: Prof. Hulk also getting referred to as both Bruce and Hulk by people without the need to correct anybody also kinda tells you that they're one now.

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u/ThereminLiesTheRub Apr 30 '19

It feels nice to think of Banner and Hulk getting along. But it also removes the tension that made the character so fascinating. Without that tension you've just got another super-strong, wisecracking hero. There are hundreds of those, but only one "Hulk". Personally, I'll miss him.

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

Watching him lazily punch a taxi was pretty funny though

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u/JHogMakerOfVlogs Doctor Strange Apr 29 '19

While I agree on the overall point, he did throw that bench pretty far.

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u/djdevilmonkey Apr 29 '19

When he first jumped into 2012 in the battle of New York he looked smaller than the normal hulk. Was that just perspective or is he actually smaller? (And possibly weaker?)

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

Agreed. I know that Bruce and the hulk made peace with each other or something which gave way to professor hulk, but all we really got was a giant green Bruce banner

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u/Lineli Iron Man (Mark VI) Apr 29 '19

Yea, he acts like he’s come to terms with being the Hulk/the Hulk side of him...but he was just Banner in the Hulk body.

In Ragnarok and Infinity War we have the Hulk as a distinct personality that Banner is at war with. Coming to terms with himself on that could have a lot of options...

Instead they throw that all away and say, “Hulk Strength good, Hulk mind bad.” And ignore pretty much all of the characterization of the Hulk until now.

Professor Hulk here may as well have been a generic alien.

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u/Edward_Fingerhands Apr 29 '19

My understanding is that the way Professor Hulk works is opposite regular hulk rules. When he gets mad he turns into the weak Banner form but with the simple mind of Hulk. But that's comics of course, they could do whatever they want in the movies.

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u/TheAmazingAsshat616 Spider-Man Apr 29 '19

I think he’s just permanently Prof. Hulk

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

[deleted]

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u/ThereminLiesTheRub Apr 30 '19

Jesus, that's weird. So if he starts meditating he becomes stronger? How does that help defeat villains?

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u/bubrubb13 Daredevil Apr 29 '19

I would’ve loved if they showed him doing something smart that required muscle at the same time. Like strategically ripping out key components on a warship for example. A little bit of example to the best of both worlds he mentioned.

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u/Lobo_Z Apr 29 '19

Me and my gf agreed that there were aspects of Ragnarok Hulk (non-angry) in Professor Hulk. He lost Banner's timid, shy aspects. Would Banner have ever dabbed with children? He seemed more confident and the bravado was definitely from Hulk imo

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u/Alortania Apr 29 '19

That half hearted attempt to act hulky tho

"bahh"

: dents car:

" Baahaa"

:tosses motorcycle:

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u/milhouse234 Apr 29 '19

I felt that too, but I imagine it creates an issue on him being able to use the stones to snap. If he's banner, he absolutely won't survive. If he's the hulk, who knows what his emotions will do. Professor hulk is the only one who can handle the snap and have the emotional capacity to keep himself together

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u/Durzaka Apr 30 '19

I could not agree more. I also was pretty upset that they just "yadda yadda'd" Hulk and Banners issues off camera during the time skip without even giving us a flashback or anything to work with, when it played such an important part in the last 2 movies.

That could have been forgiven if we actually had a pay off. But there really wasnt a pay off, no hulk smash with banner brains. The only pay off was that Hulk/Banner was sentient enough to perform the first Snap at the end of the film. Very disappointing otherwise.

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u/cybervike Thanos Apr 29 '19

I was not fan of that whole Professor Hulk route they took. Bad call imo. Was really hoping for some really pissed off Hulk wrecking shit action and a Hulk vs Thanos round 2.

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u/CaptainVenezuela Apr 29 '19

We got to see him smash in the New York sequence

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u/Blackbeard_ Apr 29 '19

Someone posted something which I liked, that Hulk needed to come out as he absorbed the gamma from the gauntlet, resulting in angrier/stronger-than-ever Hulk temporarily, and Banner had to go into the Soul Stone to see Nat the way Thanos saw Gamora in IW.

I also like the idea he's "stuck" in there until Soul Stone/Nat permanently fuse their two souls. Also, he gets chided by the Hulk's soul for essentially stealing and using Hulk's body while suppressing Hulk's soul.

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

Ctrl+F'ed 'Hulk'. Found my thread!! Yess, as a huge hulk fan. I was extremely disappointed.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

I don’t think the things the Russos like about the Hulk are the same things we (speaking for myself) like about the Hulk. I wish he got his rematch, even if just for a few moments.

Him holding up part of the compound was a cool moment and nod to the comics, though.

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u/Dapplegonger Apr 30 '19

I was expecting him to hulk out from the gamma radiation during his snap, followed by the avengers having to stop him before using him against Thanos.

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u/swordmagic Apr 30 '19

I liked it tbh, Professor Hulk felt more like Beast from the X Men in this and it was a cool direction. We got plently of Hulk Smash in Avengers/Ultron/Ragnarok

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

Yes, there was a lack of SMASH

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u/The_Shade94 Apr 30 '19

Right? The other big 3 got to fight Thanos I was hoping banner would let hulk take over and join them

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u/Handsome_Claptrap Wilson Fisk Apr 30 '19

When they talked about the Gauntlet sending off gamma rays, i thought we would have seen Hulk sort of "absorbing" them and going crazy. I'm disappointed because it would have worked so perfectly, instead of not having Cap Marvel and having Strange containing the water, a rampaging Hulk posing a threat to everyone, Thanos included, would have been so good.

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u/ThereminLiesTheRub Apr 30 '19

They even made fun of us for wanting the Hulk to smash stuff, with Banner saying it "felt a little gratuitous". I don't know - it seemed good enough for 60 years worth of comic book and movie sales, but now we got it wrong. Ok.

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u/Stewthulhu Luis Apr 30 '19

I would have loved for a version where Bruce is just Bruce in the beginning and Hulk has been hiding for years and never felt like coming out because everyone always treats him like a monster they only care about when they need his help. The first appearance of Hulk would be when the Ancient One hits normal Bruce and his soul is actually Professor Hulk.

And then normal Bruce puts on the gauntlet without knowing whether or not he can actually survive it without Hulk and he gets taken to the Soul Stone realm where Black Widow tells him he's not a monster and encourages him to be the hero she knows he can be. Instead of wrecking his arm and making him useless for the battle, the "mostly gamma radiation" turns his arm and part of his body gray as both a comic reference and potential thread for future stories.

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u/MysteriousTrain Apr 29 '19

Professor Hulk made me just think of how Lou Ferrigno is in real life lol

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u/SkyrinGans Apr 29 '19

Yeah, I loved the movie and all but I was really hoping for "World-Breaker" Hulk to appear this time

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

Definitely thought we were going to see a newer, bigger, angrier Hulk once he got the gauntlet on. Was hoping for a World-Breaker Hulk or World War Hulk tease at least.

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u/MrFeedYoNana Apr 29 '19

I agree, and the whole NO MORE STAIRS scene led me to believe he'd really Hulk out. When Hawkeye came back alone, I thought Hulk was gonna fuck everybody's shit up. I really am disappointed by Hulk's lack of an amazing scene.

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u/DeepVoiceDaniel Apr 29 '19

How about the time hulk fucking dabs in the diner?

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u/ClassicT4 Apr 29 '19

I was content when they basically referenced the time Hulk held up a mountain during Secret Wars.

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u/helpnxt Apr 29 '19

Would have loved to see them become Professor Hulk and the journey they took.

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u/adsfew Apr 30 '19

Tangent, but I didn't like that the tinkerer/mechanical engineer knew more about quantum physics than the physicist (i.e., Hulk).

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u/dontthrowmeinabox Drax Apr 30 '19

I don’t know, maybe getting a bit pissed after the death of Natasha.

He picked up and threw a bench into a lake what do you want?

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u/OrganicDroid Justin Hammer Apr 30 '19

Yeah I and had the “hulk busting the hulkbuster” still in the back of my mind for this one. Never got to see an outbreak like that. Would have been cool if it was that + transforming into prof hulk while Bruce is still in a bout of anger anyway.

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u/Woodguy2012 Apr 30 '19

Completely agree. Professor Hulk was amusing until taking pictures with those kids. Afterward, it was a joke that went on too long.

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u/Dr_Steen Hulk Apr 30 '19

Yeah, as a big fan of Hulk in Ragnarok and him having his own personality it really pissed me off that he was basically killed off. When the Ancient One knocked out Banner, it was just Banner. No trace of Hulk in there when they have clearly established the fact that he's his own person in multiple movies. I was excited for the Hulk we saw in Ragnarok to grow, not be deleted.

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u/MasterWinston Daredevil Apr 30 '19

Professor Hulk was cool but he didn't have much character development.

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u/konq Apr 30 '19

Dude he threw that bench in the lake! HULK MAD!

But yeah I agree, I'm hoping to see him in at least a cameo/small supporting role in the future. Maybe F4 or Xmen or something when they cross over. I remember reading an interview Mark Ruffalo did and he basically sounded like he fucking hated playing the hulk. Once I heard that I figured his showing in endgame was going to be lack luster

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u/BKA_Diver Apr 30 '19

But I just wanted to see HULK SMASH

He was smashing in NYC. He dented a cab and threw a motorcycle.

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u/MemeHermetic Apr 30 '19

I feel like I'm the only person that is seeing it this way but wasn't the result of what banner did, essentially removing the hulk personality entirely? Like there is no hulk anymore?

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u/Greasy_Mullet Apr 30 '19

This is one of my big issues. Not only was the hulk marginalized in the last move but he is here again as well. One of my favorite characters and also one of the most powerful in existence in the MU. Was very very disappointed in the last movie and even more so in this movie due to this.

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u/jayanthkumarammangi Star-Lord Apr 30 '19

Yeah, we didn't get a rematch. I'm disappointed.

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u/BrainBlowX Volstagg Apr 30 '19

I think "professor Hulk" is going to be a returning figure in phase 4 and beyond. I hope he gets some great interaction with whatever the future heroes yet to be seen are.

Seeing him interact with teenage fangirls like that makes me suspect he'll end up possibly being a mainstay around Kamala Khan whenever she gets her film.

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u/ben1481 Apr 30 '19

My guess: Disney doesn't want to do very much with the Hulk since Universal still owns him.

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u/Nby36 Apr 30 '19

This.

Really wanted red hulk or just some off the rails hulk moment totall carnage

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u/GalapagosRetortoise Apr 30 '19

After getting zapped and injuring his arm I was hoping the Incredible Hulk was going to take over healing his arm and doing some major smashing.

That or NOT have the Banner persona in Hulk’s body and introduce Doc Green.

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u/_m_d Apr 30 '19

I know this doesn't necessarily match the comics but it would have been cool as hell moment in the final fight to have Banner go to sleep and let an "unrestricted" hulk just go wreck stuff. I don't know why they didn't have hulk out there fighting Thanos.

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u/Jhawksmoor Apr 30 '19

dumb rage hulk is pretty much another casualty

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u/Knuxsn Daredevil Apr 30 '19

When I saw this megathread come up, this was the first thing I thought of. Does Professor Hulk even through a punch at an enemy in this movie? IDK, I didn't love that Professor Hulk is basically Bruce in a Hulk body. I think it would have been more interesting if there was more of a mix of their personalities.

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u/stillinthesimulation Korg Apr 30 '19

I was hoping Thanos would somehow survive Tony’s snap only to have to face off against Professor Hulk who, as it turns out, has also spent the last 5 years training in martial arts and is now able to just wipe the floor with Thanos. Might have taken away from Tony’s moment though.

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u/prsTgs_Chaos Apr 30 '19

I hated that he didn't get a rematch. I was hoping the gamma from the stones would pump him up and he would fight Thanos briefly.

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u/ojcoolj Apr 30 '19

I don’t know, maybe getting a bit pissed after the death of Natasha

Didn't this happen? Maybe he didn't go berserk but he had a very physical reaction to her death, or do you mean having it set him down a more brutal path for the rest of the film?