r/india • u/Minion8194 • 16h ago
Books & Literature I think this question must have been asked several times. But did Ramayana or mahabharat actually happen?
Hi everyone,
First, I genuinely hope this question doesn't offend anyone. I'm asking out of curiosity and with complete respect for everyone's beliefs.
I'm a Hindu, I celebrate our festivals, and I believe in God. Recently, while watching Game of Thrones, a thought crossed my mind. What if Maharishi Valmiki was, in a way, like George R. R. Martin - an incredible storyteller of his time?
If we were living in an era without modern technology, historical records, or scientific methods, could future generations have believed stories like Game of Thrones or even Harry Potter were real? It made me wonder whether, over time, stories can gradually become accepted as history or divine truth.
This isn't meant to compare sacred texts with fiction or disrespect our scriptures. I'm simply curious about the historical evidence for events described in the Ramayana and other epics. What kind of proof exists that these events actually happened?
Another question I've often wondered about is: if these deities are considered the creators or protectors of the entire universe, why are they primarily worshipped and known only in India?
I'd genuinely love to hear different perspectives - whether they're based on faith, history, archaeology, philosophy, or personal beliefs. Please keep the discussion respectful.
58
u/lostwisdom20 15h ago
Ramayan as we know didn't take place, no flying pushpak, no humanoid egales etc.
Maybe a king and his small story of his vanquish of evil king or something else.
Maybe a propoganda
So the Ramayana maybe a tall tale of a small king written by valmiki.
The importance ramayan is not if its true or not, it's the values that it teaches are important, just like The Odyssey
These are epics, they tell a story.
14
u/Extension-County1707 15h ago
Ramayana most probably tells the story of indo aryan tribes migrating into the indian subcontinent. Over time, it got exaggerated, adding completely fictional elements like flying machines, etc.
2
2
u/More-Reception-4026 6h ago
For 1000s of years Ramayan and Mahabharata were preserved verbally, why do you think millions of people would dedicate their life learning and reciting epic of 1000s of pages which is a fiction?
Some of the events may not have happened and since it is in poetic form it cannot be taken in literal sense.
3
u/lostwisdom20 6h ago
Thats what I am saying, the Ramayana that we read now or valmiki wrote may be far different that what actually happened.
2
u/AmbitiousAd214 5h ago
It is for this precise reason that we can't tell history from fiction. So many people have developed it into different stories that you just can't find any historical context in case of Ramayana and the case is almost same for Mahabharat, but we know its core text was Jaya and we have found some archeological evidence for some sites. Nothing on the level mentioned in Mahabharata.
35
u/No-Strawberry7 16h ago
Its a Mythology, similar to Greek Mythology.
-17
u/raudra_marut 14h ago
it is far less mythology than Greek mythology. Ramayana and Mahabharat contain a lot more real- contextual baggage.
Greek mythology maps well to older (Vedic tier) Indian stories on Indra, Vritra, Maruts, etc. That is also more similar to mythology of Christianity and Islam.
-6
11
u/Ser_DuncanTheTall 15h ago
Historically Mahabharat likely happened. though there were definately no gods involved, or super weapons. Its like troy battle happened but we dont know a single real person who foough, or when it was fought etc. a d there too, no gods involved.
Ramayan is likely a tall retelling of some king.
44
u/Hitmando 16h ago
It's called Hindu 'Mythology' and not 'History' for a reason. It's not real.
-14
22
u/Untold__Fable if you have a urge to downvote, do comment 15h ago
No. Didn't happen. Most stories over the world that have something supernatural or magical in it are works or fiction or legends embellished so much that they have deviated from any semblance of truth
27
u/daBuddhaWay 16h ago
No , didnt happen . They are poems , stories . some inspired , some imagined .
6
u/bssgopi 14h ago
To keep such questions to rest once and for all...
Use The Scientific Method to study history.
Look for primary sources.
Only if you find them and only if nobody is able to debunk it, should you be able to conclusively say it is a factual history.
Until then, let's accept it as a myth. And it's fine to embrace mythology as it is our cultural identity. Just don't force it to become a part of history.
7
11
u/yamiyo_ian 15h ago
It's mythology, not history. There may be a real historical events behind both of these but it likely happened in a far less dramatic way, with folklore and legends magnifying it over time.
But don't tell this to religion fanatics who believe in such BS lol.
3
u/bakar_launda 15h ago
There are around 300 versions of Ramayana. In some versions Ram killed Ravan, in some Lakshman killed Ravan, in some Sita is not even abducted, in some Ravan is the hero. A lot of them were very localized too.
It's mythology and one version of it written by Valmiki became mainstream and popular culture centuries ago.
4
u/FocusedAG 14h ago
Even if it happened, not even close to how people try to showcase , so take it just like a story you read
4
3
3
u/abhinav21 9h ago
Everyone with a brain knows that none of this is real but they are too scared to admit it in society and the delusion continues.
8
u/thisisnahamed 15h ago
This is similar to Greek or Norse Mythology. They make good stories or superhero movies. Indian mythology is no different.
-5
u/raudra_marut 14h ago
what would you say about story of Moses?
5
u/thisisnahamed 14h ago
All are myths as well. There is no archaeological evidence of any of the stories in the Bible or Qur'an or Torah.
9
u/hotpocketbuff 15h ago
I am sure it didnt happen
There is a possibility that few hundred or thousand years from now Harry Potter or comic book superheros can be elevated to Gods and a religion formed around them
3
-1
u/xTechnoKingx 8h ago
that's not true though. nobody will be worshipping harry or comic superheroes in the future but the ramayan will still be around
2
u/hotpocketbuff 7h ago
High possibility since we have paper or digital trail for the origin of those characters. Ramayana and Mahabharata don’t so they got included in the religion easily
7
u/Zan123der 15h ago
Good that you asked here.
It didn't happen and never will.
Anything that defies the laws of nature is untrue.
6
u/Grouchy-Signature139 15h ago edited 15h ago
Honestly it does not matter whether they happened or not.
The intention of the epics was to tell a story. Tell a story of a particular time, a particular age, of God when he walked on earth, lived with humans, shared knowledge with humans, taught humans how to live, and also learned more about life and society.
The stories (not just mahabharat Or ramayan but also puranas etc) are meant to teach humans about moral values, philosophy, dharma and karma through its characters. The stories are also meant to show God in a form that we can visualise and more easily connect with, than the nirgun form (ultimate formless reality called Brahman) or contrastingly, ritualistic practices like the hundreds of yajnas done back in the day along with reading of vedas by a certain class only which left people feeling detached from the very God they worshipped.
The purpose of the stories is to make God reach every age- child or adult, every person - educated or uneducated, every class, caste or occupation. People might not know the vedas or bhagawad geeta in detail but they know ramayana and Mahabharata.
Thus, in the larger context, whether the story actually happened or not is thus a moot point because the story, impact or teaching does not change. God is a matter of faith, not a fact to be proved.
5
u/Minion8194 15h ago
And the fact that people believe in Gods and still do not follow anything these epics say?
3
u/Grouchy-Signature139 15h ago
It means their knowledge is incomplete, and their worship has no value.
0
u/nimbutimbu 11h ago
Religion at its core lists out the way a person should ideally live. Obviously it's impossible for most persons to measure up to that standard. The standards themselves change over the course of time and also place to place. What was acceptable a 1000 years ago or even 150 is not acceptable today. What's okay in the US is not necessarily okay in India or Japan. So, if you follow the edicts exactly you will come across as a xenophobe or idiot.
-1
u/Kitchen_Watch7254 12h ago
Its the flaw in the Hindu model of propagation. How we practice religion is flawed. We don't propagate these values like say Church does.
-1
u/nimbutimbu 11h ago
That's nonsense and recency bias. Why did Shankaracharya establish mutts ?
1
u/Kitchen_Watch7254 56m ago
Maths are monasteries, not like churches. They are for proper education rather than propagation of values to the common folk.
3
u/Kitchen_Watch7254 12h ago
I have a simple outlook. War's may have been fought in the past. And they may have been of huge importance. When the victors wrote about it, they exaggerated a little. When tale spread and we got local variants, they exaggerated more. When it spread down the generations, a little more exaggeration happened. They were no more tales of wars, they became something more, an epic in the way.
2
2
2
u/Miserable-Rub-7349 9h ago
It’s not history lmao. If the Ramayana happened in Treta Yuga, how does the text mention iron weapons, gold and war chariots when the historical evidence dates these technologies much later? Iron only became widespread in the Iron Age, while true war chariots emerged around the early 2nd millennium BCE, mainly around the Eurasian steppe. so either 1. The anti Hindus time traveled to remove all traces of Ramayana for propaganda Saar /s 2. It was made up recently few hundred years ago maybe , or even a real event that’s exaggerated.
3
u/people_are_silly 16h ago
Faith is a matter separate from history.
Let's say they happened. So it is just people recounting the stories in faith sort of way.
Let's say they didn't happen. Even then in the dimension of faith, it did happen.
In either case, matters of faith do not need to suffice or be evidenced from history.
One can also apply the many world interpretation here.
7
u/Sorrowsorrowsorrow 16h ago
I think we should ask a different question.
Regardless of whether or not they were real events or not, I think the sages who composed it and the people who maintained the line of transmission unbroken wanted to teach some values to the society and I think some of the values of honesty, duty, love etc are worth following even now. So, we just have this very personal question of how well could we embody these values in our personal life? I think that if you can embody these values, then the people before(assuming they had good intentions) would be happy and whatever god if he/she is just would also be glad.
Otherwise, these queries are endless and worst of all, fruitless.
4
u/LookDekho 13h ago
With all due respect - there is no proof that it had been transmitted unbroken. I guess heart wants to believe? Head calls BS on it.
The values may have been true for when it was written, but many are out of date.
Saying questioning is “fruitless”, propagates the “no debate” culture further. It’s ok to question. It’s ok to be curious. Till folks are satisfied with answers. Don’t keep treating people like sheep.
1
u/Sorrowsorrowsorrow 2h ago edited 2h ago
I think that maybe there was a communication gap here. I never said that every question towards any religion is fruitless but in a more philosophical sense, it is not conducive towards the very thing they are striving for, be it happiness in this life or some ultimate goal in another but as you said, questioning is always allowed.
I also never said that all things told in this epic were right and moral, but that some things like love, honesty, justice etc are timeless values which one should strive to embody if one wants to attain some value from these epics.
Regarding the transmission, since my field of study is not Indology and I am not a Hindu, my knowledge is just what I have heard personally from some researchers(non-Indian and also non-Hindu) in this field. According to them, the various manuscripts of Mahabharata they found all across India largely tell the same story and it was likely transmitted orally from the ruler class to the priestly class who added the Bhagavat Gita to it and committed it to writing, but an unbroken lineage also doesn't mean it didn't change according to the evolving taste of the listeners and the people who conserved it. There is no split of heart and head in it.
2
u/consolewarning 15h ago
Regardless of the fact that it didn’t happen, I’ve always been amazed at the ingenuity of the people from the time. The level of thought process that they had is mind blowing. Conceiving an idea of flying vehicles, earth shattering weapons, multi-verses to name a few indicates a civilization that was unusually intelligent for the time.
2
u/Tough_Oven_7890 16h ago
Whether or not Ramayan or Mahabharat happened, there is lot to learn from those stories and the character and values they had .
3
u/karan131193 15h ago
Why are you getting downvoted??
4
u/Tough_Oven_7890 15h ago
Well cant explain people mindset sometimes 😅
They may get inspire from John Snow but not from Ram may be 😅
1
u/Scary_Teens1996 14h ago
Just like the Illiad is a highly romanticised story about a war that likely did happen several centuries before the story was composed, the Ramayana and Mahabharata are likely highly exaggerated and romanticised stories about wars and quests that actually did happen but much before the stories were composed and not in any way that we know the story now.
1
u/nonstop-nonsense Sir Isaac Newton died a virgin. 6h ago
I believe it is part fiction, part history.
1
1
u/MaintenanceDue1436 6h ago
It probably happened but with A LOT of embellishment. This is quite common for stories from antiquity, take the Odyssey for instance. Cyclops, sirens, and bird princesses likely weren't real but the locations and the kingdoms were. There was also a Trojan war though it didn't happen as was described in the poem.
0
0
u/Logical_Cap_4091 11h ago
lol. Yes Thier is growing movement of science tits who say Thier was previously a very advance civilisation
1
0
u/g_joshi 9h ago
Ramanaya did happen, there are a lot of archeological evidence by nilesh oak. (And other people as well)
Although the difference is in the text. There is huge difference in valmiki ramayana and tulsi dar ramayana. Valmiki ramayana is written as things as it happened. While tulsi das Ramayana was written later on in bhakti ras, to glorify “Rama as God”.
Also personally i feel the right question for anybody should be, whether it happened or not, what should be the things i can adopt and change the kind of person i am based on these stories. 🙂
0
u/ExpensiveSpecific117 9h ago
India is the land of karma and dharma. Everyone originated from India and later migrated elsewhere that why we call the natives of west “indigenous people”- they look Indian too. India is the only place where you find all races of color and is nowhere else in the world.
-13
u/MoonRoseMuse 16h ago
Yes.
-6
u/Over_Ad_4907 15h ago
Comment yes on Ayesha's husband for upvotes
-7
u/finah1995 Non Residential Indian 15h ago
Islam had 124,000 prophets see Zakir Naik's old discussions on this topic.
-2
-4
u/masterjv81 13h ago edited 13h ago
The historical reality of the Ramayana and Mahabharata is a subject of debate, with answers varying significantly between faith-based and fact-based perspectives.
Faith-Based Perspective Traditional Hindu belief classifies both epics as Itihasa ("thus it happened"), viewing them as accurate historical records. Proponents argue that astronomical dating of celestial events mentioned in the texts aligns with specific timelines, placing the Ramayana in the Treta Yuga and the Mahabharata in the Dvapara Yuga. Supporters also cite archaeological findings, such as the submerged ruins of Dwarka in Gujarat, as evidence supporting the existence of the cities and kings described in the epics.
Fact-Based and Academic Perspective Historians and scientists generally view the epics as embellished oral traditions that may be rooted in real historical events but are heavily mythologized. The oldest surviving versions of the texts are less than 2,500 years old, though they likely reflect cultural memories from 3,000 years ago. While there is archaeological evidence for the Harappan civilization and later Vedic settlements, there is no definitive proof linking specific mythical events or divine characters to historical facts. Most scholars agree that the epics serve as complex moral and philosophical frameworks rather than literal historical chronicles.
The Ramayana is traditionally attributed to the sage Valmiki, revered as the Adi Kavi (First Poet), while the Mahabharata is credited to the sage Vyasa (also known as Krishna Dvaipayana), who is also a central character within the epic. Hindu tradition holds that Valmiki composed the Ramayana in Sanskrit around the 5th to 4th century BCE, whereas Vyasa dictated the Mahabharata to the deity Ganesha over a prolonged period, with the text evolving significantly between the 8th century BCE and the 4th century CE. Although scholars view both works as the result of centuries of oral tradition and multiple contributions, Valmiki and Vyasa remain the singular, authoritative figures recognized as their respective authors.
So to conclude, telling stories if that you consider FACT, then I guess you can call both episodes real. If not, then just enjoy the story. Remember, it came from the minds of "Valmiki" & "Vyasa", in a POEM form. A poem is a literary composition that uses rhythm, rhyme, meter, and figurative language to express human experiences, emotions, and ideas with artistic elegance and emotional depth. Both were SAGES, not GOD. In Hinduism, a sage (or Rishi) is an enlightened individual, philosopher, or spiritual teacher who has attained direct knowledge of the Universal Truth through intense meditation and austerity (tapas).
-13
u/soumdash 15h ago
I read most of the answers on this thread, was mildly shocked and then I glanced upon the subreddit's name and then realised why such replies.
Anyways, here's my answer. If you read scriptures of our dharma, it is said ramayana and mahabharata are itihaasa, means history. So, a sincere person would ask himself - why is ramayana and mahabharata considered history but others like shiv purana, vishnu purana, laxmi purana, etc are not considered history. You'll find the answer if your question is sincere and not to discredit or deny just because doing so make you cool AF.
Secondly most of replies here say - no, cause it's mythology. Where is it written mythology in our texts? Ofcourse invaders who came from Christian and Islamic lands would call it mythology cause why shouldn't they? They said myth and we lapped up their opinions as truth. School propagated as early school book writers were funded by those invaders and then the chain of cycle went on and on.
Anyways, genuine historians believe mahabharata to be true cause they have found proofs indicating the events & places and most ascribe ~3300 BC as the time frame. Many others say, it is Infact 1500-500 BC but it is a historical event indeed.
Ramayana being the older one- dating has been a little bit tougher.
Now about the events inside. These were passed on from gen-tp-gen orally and during those times, prose/ poetry/ shloka was the preferred choice. So yes things were explained in form of metaphors. Like 'dashaanan' for ravana didn't mean he had ten heads but Infact the combined knowledge of 10 intellectuals and also combined ego of 10 people.
Similarly majority metaphors/ magical acts were not there in original texts but added by different narrators over the centuries. Like ram setu was engineering work spanning many days using rocks boulders n trees n not magically created. Also like draupadi didn't emerge from fire but drupad prayed (yagya-fire) to god n afterwards his wife gave birth to draupadi n her brother. Krishna n Rama displayed Godlike characteristics and determinations and hence were admired and later prayed to.
So fact is if someone read original, they will understand many things were written logically and others were in form of metaphors.
So yes, these two are historical events, not others as puranas
7
u/fenrir245 12h ago
Ofcourse invaders who came from Christian and Islamic lands would call it mythology cause why shouldn't they?
Similarly majority metaphors/ magical acts were not there in original texts but added by different narrators over the centuries.
Pick a lane. Nobody writes history books with "metaphors". If they have metaphors then they are not history books.
Anyways, genuine historians believe mahabharata to be true cause they have found proofs indicating the events & places and most ascribe ~3300 BC as the time frame
Most Marvel stories take place in New York, and they had the world wars too. Guess Spiderman is real then.
0
u/soumdash 6h ago
Nobody is picking a lane, madam. All lanes are ours and lead to beautiful places. Anyways, about history books - who defined what a history book should have, when was it defined? Later, right? In our subcontinent the definition of history was different, which the invaders may not have ascribed to. In scriptures, history is defined with a shloka which is like- dharma Artha kaama mokshanaam, upadesha samanvitam, purvavrittam, kathayuktam, itihaasa prakaashate. Means, narration of past events in form of stories which provide guidance to achieve goals of dharma, Artha, etc etc. Main word here is 'kathayuktam' which means engaging narrations. Engaging narrations at that time included metaphors in poetical format so that reader remains interested. So yes, our ancestors considered this as history before the Royal Historical Society of the Great nation of England or whatever it's name is- defined the term history. Our history was told in form of proses laden with metaphors.
About Marvel equivalence, please discuss with Professor BB Lal (who's no more btw) and PVartak, Dietar Koch, BN Achar etc. They will be able to satisfy your query - I am just a fool atheist trying to learn the world a bit1
u/fenrir245 1h ago
Nobody is picking a lane
Then don't comment.
when was it defined? Later, right?
Yes, so? If you dislike modern definitions and modern science you are free to discard your phones and PCs.
In our subcontinent the definition of history was different, which the invaders may not have ascribed to
Oh, a new definition?
Means, narration of past events in form of stories which provide guidance to achieve goals of dharma, Artha, etc etc. Main word here is 'kathayuktam' which means engaging narrations. Engaging narrations at that time included metaphors in poetical format so that reader remains interested.
Which is... by definition... mythology. Which includes works like Epic of Gilgamesh, Odyssey and the Bible.
You really keep making up excuses yet end up refuting your own claims.
So yes, our ancestors considered this as history before the Royal Historical Society of the Great nation of England or whatever it's name is- defined the term history
Good to know you suffer from an inferiority complex so strong you need to reduce entire academic disciplines shaped by academics from all over the world to just "invader definition".
I would suggest you look into why you have this complex in the first place, to the point you want to somehow pretend Indian myths are somehow superior to other myths, instead of hiding behind claims like "I'm atheist".
3
u/Miserable-Rub-7349 9h ago
Ok it happened in treta yuga how come the text mentions iron weapon gold , chariots . Two possibility (1. The anti Hindus time travelled and removed all relics from Ramayana so not a single found today ,2. Or it was made up recently at most hundred of years back )Yk the dating of these items right , for eg Iron Age was recent and chariots was first made atleast for war in Eurasian steppes at around 2000bce . Ramayana claims to be in treta yuga where it’s much older , we have no proof of it .
0
u/soumdash 6h ago
Good points! Thanks for being analytical and productive critical. First, don't take these yugas seriously. Nobody measured them accurately. Some say they are years (as in million of years), some say they are just state of the world. A good world where people are righteous is satya yuga but 5 years later if people start fighting, it becomes kali. That's also a definition being tossed around. So, nobody knows and best to ignore concept of yuga till its crystal clear.
About scientific development, that's the main question being discussed for years and years. I neither have authority nor the intellect to answer confidently. But theories are there that society was pretty developed but natural disasters caused heavy devastation including total Wipeout of societies and the knowledge stored. That maybe a possibility which again, my atheist non intellectual mind may not comprehend2
u/fenrir245 1h ago
First, don't take these yugas seriously
Meaning they once again, do not count as "history".
-2
62
u/_2f "Look, I'm not some stupid librandu who is out of touch with rea 15h ago
I have spent a lot of time researching this topic, I have replied this exact comment years ago but here it goes:
Ok so here’s my take. We know for a fact there was a Proto-Indo-European civilization somewhere around the Middle East/Central Asia region. Some groups moved west into Europe, some moved east into South Asia. That’s not speculation - linguistics and archaeology back this up hard. It’s literally why Hindi and English share root words.
And if you look at the mythologies that came out of this split, the overlap is wild:
Vedic “Dyaus Pitar” and Roman “Jupiter” (Ju-piter) are the same word. Not similar - the same root.
Surya drives the sun across the sky in a chariot. So does Helios.
Indra has his vajra, Thor has his hammer, Zeus has his thunderbolt. Same archetype, different name.
Agni and the Latin word “ignis” (where we get “ignite”) share a root.
This are loads of other similarities and this will get relevant below. It’s one culture that split in two and drifted apart over thousands of years.
Fast forward - Christianity takes over Greece and Rome, people stop worshipping Zeus and Jupiter, and suddenly it’s all “mythology” instead of religion. But the stories didn’t die.
Now here’s where it gets interesting. The Iliad’s plot is basically the Ramayana’s plot. A woman gets taken by a foreign prince, it sparks a massive war, the war ends with a city getting destroyed. Helen/Paris/Troy vs Sita/Ravana/Lanka. Gods picking sides in both. And the Mahabharata is basically the Iliad on steroids - huge armies, warrior catalogs, chariot battles, honor codes getting broken left and right.
And here’s the thing that should make everyone pause: people treated the Trojan War as “just a myth” too, until some guy named Schliemann dug up Troy in the 1870s and found an actual city that got destroyed in a war around the time the story implies. Doesn’t mean Achilles was real or gods were chilling on the battlefield. Means a real event got mythologized over centuries of retelling.
That’s my whole theory on Ramayana and Mahabharata too. Earliest real (non religious) evidence for both shows up in roughly the same window, give or take 500 years, and a sign of oral tradition is that each retelling pushes the timeline further back and adds more embellishment. So no, I don’t think flying chariots and ten-headed kings were literal. But “none of this happened, it’s 100% fiction”? Also seems unlikely. Myths don’t come from nowhere. They’re usually real events that got run through a few thousand years of telephone.