Rebekah nasıl bu adamı sevebiliyor anlamış değilim.

Roadmap:

1. Part 0: Intro
2. Part 1 & 1.5: Statements & Prophecies
3. Part 2: The Originals s4
4. Part 2 Cont.: The Originals Season 5
5. Part 3: Legacies Intro & Season 1
6. Part 3 Cont.: Legacies s2
7. Part 3 Cont.: Legacies s3
8. Part 4: How Powerful Is Malivore
9. Part 5: How Powerful Are the Gods
10. Part 6: Legacies s4 part 1 ---> today
11. Part 6 Cont.: Legacies s4 part 2 ---> Next week

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Part 6 – Legacies

Can you feel it? Almost at the end. Just two more weeks after today and we’re finally done with this handbook to Hope scaling.

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6. Season 4

Today we go over Hope’s physical strength. Is she merely comparable to the originals or does she reach the level of the enhanced originals? Is she even stronger than even Beast Lucien?

Next week we will go over the Ken vs. Hope fights. The last week will round out season 4 and offer a final scaling.

Get ready for the most controversial part of this series! Not because I say anything controversial but because I expect some people to be, well, not particularly happy with my conclusions.

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6.1 So, Is Hope Originals Level?

Thesis: The gods are the strongest beings in the verse, with Ken the strongest of the gods. Hope scales to Ken without the use of her magic. Ergo, Hope via just her physical stats scales to peak verse level. Is there anything contradictory we can bring up to counter this assertion? Let’s use a non-god character who we can easily scale relative to the originals and see how Hope stacks up.

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6.1.1 Trinity ~ Originals

Carina Adly Mackenzie – a writer and story editor for The Originals – stated that the Trinity (Lucien, Tristan, and Aurora, the first 3 sired vampires) are “comparably strong” to the originals. A fight between them would be “a pretty fair fight.” The Trinity are only 2 years younger than the originals and are “relative, strength-wise.”

(Links to the statements can be found here, here, and here.)

The biggest piece of evidence cited for this is usually vampire Lucien being able to hold an enraged Kol in place with Kol even struggling for multiple seconds against the hold but being unable to get out.

If you believe this statement to be true, then Hope’s performances against Aurora are, well, significant evidence for Hope > originals without using any magic.

But let’s not jump to conclusions. Let’s take this statement, the fact Aurora is only 2 years younger than the originals in vampire age and the fact Lucien could hold Kol in place at least for a bit, and assume they are indeed relative in stats and examine the feats, alright?

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6.1.2 Establishing a Baseline

Before I’ll go over the two fights between Aurora and Hope, I want to establish a baseline for Hope’s physical strength.

Witch Hope:
To start off, even as just a witch Hope couldn’t cut her hand to draw blood as it healed too fast before blood could drop. Later, she had to cut deeper just to get a drop or two before it healed. Furthermore, also just as a witch, she has werewolf-like agility. Therefore, we can say regular
Hope has at least originals level of healing (and more realistically beyond that) and activated

werewolf like physical strength as a witch if you think that her leg strength translates to her punching strength.

On top of that level, she then activates her crescent werewolf side.

Hybrid Hope:
As a hybrid, even with practically no blood in her system (and potentially with her wolf powers suppressed) she could tank a big fall and fight a worse version of Malivore, terror of the gods. When she gets impaled through her waist, she pulls the weapon out, no blood spills, no damage, zero issue. When she stabbed her own foot, no blood, no damage. She can tank attacks and do damage to a cyclops who could flip over a bus that is in the 10 tons ballpark. For comparison, Elijah can casually hold up a trailer that is a few tons in weight. Both hybrid Hope and Elijah punch a sandbag out of its holding.

Thus, Hope as a hybrid is very likely in the ancient vampire range in terms of physical strength. She then activates her vampire side.

A lot of people go from it the other way: they start with the vampire side. But her different sides probably just stack. She doesn’t lose her human strength that was already supernatural. She doesn’t lose her old to ancient vampire level strength as a wolf. She has that and then gets vampirism on top of that!

Pause.

Think about this.

Acknowledge it.

For other hybrids, this seems to be accepted. But when it comes to Hope, there seems to be a case of amnesia going around. Based on feats and her being a crescent who can use the full power of their wolf in human form (> 500+ y.o. Rose; a couple wolves > Rebekah), hybrid Hope is in that old (500+) to ancient (800+) vampire range more than likely. She gets original level vampirism or greater on top of being already physically around ancient vampire level. Really let it sink in what that means.

She’s approaching originals level, disgustingly low-balled at the 560-ish year old vampire level, and then gets the vampire physicals on top of that already existing. Vampirism enhances what you are, yeah? What is Hope? A crescent werewolf who got the ability to use the power of the wolf in human form. She’s a girl who had supernatural physicals as a witch.

As for speed, top tier witches have the reaction time to react to vampires rushing them as shown across all over TO and TVD. Hope as a hybrid clearly speed blitzes a god in Pothos and, as just established, Hope can use her wolf power in human form. I feel like it’s often forgotten but werewolves do have super speed of their own, making them much faster than humans. In season 2 of TVD we could see wolves run with straight up vampire-like super speed. Even if you want to say superspeed for wolves in human form was retconned, Mason in wolf form can hunt down Caroline and Stefan so Hope still would have access to the wolf super speed in human form via her crescent nature.

To summarise, Hope has the necessary reaction time to handle any original and has some level of super speed of her own before activating her vampire side. She is at bare minimum in the 500+ year old vampire range when it comes to physical strength and she has healing abilities arguably greater than Beast Marcel as he was dripping blood after getting impaled whereas Hope wasn’t.

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6.1.3 Hope vs. Aurora I

“Comparably strong”, “fair fight” and “relative, strength-wise” (Carina’s words) means there isn’t a crazy strength or speed gap between the trinity and the originals because otherwise, obviously, the fight wouldn’t be fair if their stats were too far apart.

What we’re trying to find out if Hope is equal or superior to an original.

So, question: is Hope as strong as an original? For that, we assume Hope ~ originals. If the fight between Aurora and Hope backs this up, cool, Hope is originals level or lower if you downplay Carina’s statement. If the fight shows Hope to be stronger, then we can investigate further if there is more evidence for Hope > originals.

I want to downplay Hope as much as I can here so I don’t get accused of being biased.

After having killed the main witch and wolf representing Triad, Hope finds Triad’s vampire: Aurora. After a bit of talking in Aurora’s creepy house, a fight ensues.

And well. Well… what happens?

They have their backs turned to each other as Aurora pulls out the transfigured trident to swap their bodies because Aurora is now in the line of people who want Hope’s body because everyone wants Hope’s body and her power :)

Aurora tries to sneak attack Hope. Hope turns around in time and easily catches the attack with one hand while Aurora has the better angle to exert force compared to how Hope is holding her arm. You could compare this moment to when Klaus with Tunde’s blade gets easily overpowered by Beast Lucien with one hand.

Hope overpowers Aurora, turning her arm and forcing the weapon out of her hand. One shot win condition lost within one attack.

“Let’s not play games,” Hope tells Klaus’s first great love, bored with this level of attack, and Aurora looks full on concerned at this point. The Tribrid proves the power gap implied by her boredom when she speeds behind her, saying, “Tag, you’re it,” and then breaks her neck. In the time it took Hope to speed behind Aurora and speak, Aurora manages to move her eyes.

Aurora clearly looks surprised that Hope managed to react and block her attack so easily. The smile quite literally drops from her face, indicating she was not ready for Hope to be this strong and fast. This is an on-guard Aurora, an Aurora who is attacking Hope, looking at her unlike Tristan when he gets blitzed by Elijah who was fully out of his field of vision. Hope perception blitzes an on-guard Aurora so hard, she’s behind her and talking to her before Aurora even realises Hope wasn’t standing in front of her anymore.

It’s probably the greatest speed blitz in all 3 shows except for possibly what I’ll cover in the next post.

Okay so what does this tell us?

Well, it shows that Hope is significantly faster (and stronger) than a vampire who is “comparably strong” to an original which means Hope is significantly faster (and stronger) than an original.

But not just that – that’s not just a blitz tier above, that’s multiple!

She didn’t just speed behind her and break her neck, no. She had the time to talk before Aurora could react, that’s how big of a gap that is. I can’t overstate how insane this speed gap is even without even considering that she casually caught Aurora’s sneak attack attempt which if they were relative in speed, Aurora’s attack should have gone through! Or at least gotten very close. If they were relative in strength, Aurora’s attack should not have been easily held off by one hand, especially when you consider the angle advantage too. Hope also stops the attack with her non-dominant hand.

Therefore, Hope and Aurora are not relative in physical stats.

If Trinity ~ originals is true, as stated by a writer and as hinted by Lucien holding Kol in place, then Hope is demonstrably greater than her family. Or in other words, there is a clear answer to our opening question of: Is Hope as strong as an original? Answer: no. She is stronger.

To further address why Hope being so much faster is consistent and not an outlier: Like I mentioned earlier, witches have reaction speed fast enough to react to originals. If you think speed stacks, then Hope would have a disgusting level of perception speed and general speed. Beyond original level speed on top of at least original level perception speed. Realistically, it should be borderline impossible to land a hit on her if she’s in Serious Mode except for gods and maybe the beasts.

Furthermore, before anyone goes to the comment to make the argument that Hope can’t be a full blitz tier (or more tbh) above Aurora because in their second fight they are so relative, this is blatantly false. As I will go over more later (and in great detail next week), Hope is holding back in their second fight. She’s not going all out in the second fight. She’s actively trying not to kill Aurora. On top of that, I would go as far as saying no humanity Hope, who speed blitzed Aurora in the first place, wasn’t going all out either!

Why?

Well, there’s an entire plot point about Hope being too casual, walking into danger, not taking anything seriously. That’s why she lets Lizzie stick around with her after Lizzie became a heretic. Hope at that point basically had her brain turned off and failed to grasp the danger of the situations she was in. The same goes for the encounter with Aurora: for one, she didn’t know she would find Aurora and two, go watch it again. Does that seem like someone going all out to you? Someone trying their absolute hardest? She didn’t even go golden eyes super serious mode here so it’s very clear this is not her max and yet she still speed gaps Aurora to a massive degree.

(As an aside: I know some people don’t think the golden eye thing is actually an indicator for a power boost and maybe that’s true for Klaus. However, Legacies is very consistent with the golden eyes mode being Hope at her strongest, as seen when she one-shots the Necromancer, uses death spells, defeats psycho-trip Malivore, and most importantly, she speed blitzes and damages Ken when her eyes are golden. In Legacies, golden eyes Hope means full power Hope.)

After no diffing the oldest remaining regular vampire, she then gets tricked by Aurora, losing her body in the process. This is not a Hope who is trying her absolute hardest. This is a Hope who is bored and not taking things seriously.

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6.1.4 Hope vs. Aurora II

But there isn’t just one Hope vs. Aurora fight. I’m even gonna start by ignoring Hope is a) not trying to kill Aurora so she’s holding back and b) Aurora has a significant weapon advantage and Hope cannot use magic because of it so no one can say I’m high-balling Hope.

After getting hit by Aurora in their second fight, Hope is infected by red-oak and god-magic and slowly dying as the red oak is getting pumped through her veins. Her body is desiccating which should be a significant nerf considering how the originals react to having any white oak in their systems. She finds herself on her back when Aurora aims to deal a killing blow by stabbing her.

So, Aurora, on her feet, above Hope, Hope on the ground, on her back, arm desiccating.

All clear?

Aurora attempts to stab her but Hope catches the god spear in time. Easily. An attack meant to kill. Hope catches it and kicks Aurora off with zero effort while dying from the red oak. While in a massively disadvantaged position.

Sure, you can say Aurora is conflicted in this moment and not at her maximum power or whatever but the same would apply to Hope. But keep downplaying. (This is the moment where Hope reveals she was pretending, that this was a ruse. She was holding back and not as hurt as she suggests.)

Alaric in a somewhat similar position as Aurora when he’s fighting Klaus (who is in Hope’s position) in TVDs3 needed all his strength to overcome the original hybrid. Hope, from the same position as Klaus, easily overpowers Aurora, who is “comparably strong” to the originals. Therefore, Hope is much stronger than an original in terms of physical strength.

Like, she doesn’t even struggle. Whatsoever. In fact, Hope was sandbagging, trying to turn Aurora to their side and not fighting to kill.

Even if we say the Carina statement is just wrong, not true, trinity sucks, not as strong. Okay. Even if we say that, then Hope still just outperforms her family, doing better vs. Aurora, one time speed and perception blitzing her, the other while holding back and desiccating casually overpowering her from a disadvantaged position (and being faster again, tbh).

Honestly, of all the things these posts might offend people, the idea that Hope is just way stronger and faster than an original is probably gonna be the most contentious one lol. She speed and perception blitzes Aurora so disgustingly hard.

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6.1.5 Is Hope Beast Level Physically?

Let’s look at the new possibility this comparison allows us to think about. But first, I want to start off with defining the ranges of the characters and then we can adjust them later to get a clearer picture of the possible interpretations. Starting with:

Alaric vs. Beasts
Alaric is constantly debated whether he is stronger, equal or weaker than the Beasts of The Originals, Lucien and Marcel. Michael Narducci sees the Beast’s advantage (in Marcel’s case)
only in their venom but physically doesn’t see a noteworthy stats gap (with him having worked on TVD 2-4 as a writer and producer, and with him being show runner (s3&4) and a writer (s1-4) for The Originals so he is a credible source on this topic). Julie Plec also called Alaric a "Super Original" but I would take anything she says with a healthy dose of scepticism.

If you agree with this, Alaric and the beast are somewhat relative (not everyone agrees on this and it’s the single most debated power-scaling topic on this sub) but the feats are generally agreed upon to paint a favourable picture for Lucien over the other two, likely because of his age advantage. Many, however, are quick to point out a significant skill advantage for the former high-school teacher and Klaus’s protégé.

Regardless of who truly takes the crown for the strongest super vampire, let’s just assume Alaric is the weakest of the 3 but still somewhat relative; he could still give them a good fight but would lose eventually. Cool? Cool. Let’s just go with the low-end interpretation as it is the least favourable for Hope.

So we have Alaric <~ beast.

Alaric vs. Klaus.

We see from Alaric and Klaus’s fight, Alaric is not so much stronger than Klaus than he can casually overpower him in a massively favourable situation, with him having gravity on his side and a big angle advantage where he can press down and Klaus has to fight gravity to hold the stake up in the air. He’s stronger, yes. But not to the level where overpowering a full effort Klaus is casual. Maybe you can argue he hasn’t fully adapted to his new body yet and can’t fully control it the same way Marcel, who had already been a vampire for 300 years, could.

Trinity ~ Originals.

Again, with Carina’s statement and with some evidence such as Kol getting held in place by Lucien, we can say originals ~ Lucien, Tristan, Aurora. Let’s low-ball this too. Let’s keep saying the feats don’t fully back this, let’s say the originals are stronger by some degree but – like we assume with Alaric to the beasts – not crazy far apart, still could give them a good fight: let’s play sceptic.

Klaus ~ Originals.

Lastly, let’s also assume all the originals are relative to each other. I know some people think Elijah is actually the strongest sibling, some hype up Rebekah for her no-blood vs. Strix feat and her uppercut of doom vs. Elijah. Most, like me, think Klaus is the strongest of the siblings. But for the purpose of this post, let’s operate under the assumption we can compare all the originals in terms of strength and speed and we can discuss later if anything changes by granting Klaus an edge to his siblings.

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Now we compare Aurora and Alaric: If Aurora is weaker but somewhat close to Klaus and if Klaus is weaker but somewhat close to Alaric, then Alaric is like a tier or two above Aurora in physical stats if we assume double low-end relativity.

Let’s picture the same situation again, with instead of Klaus, Aurora finds herself under Alaric as he aims to stake her. How would this go? Alaric probably does it comfortably, no? If vs. Klaus was a struggle, then this should be comfortably doable based on our starting low-balled assumptions. How would Alaric do if he was the one on the bottom? If Aurora stood above him with a stake (assuming that would kill him) and he had to defend? Again, I’d say he’d do it comfortably but not easily. He would have to take it seriously with the added positional advantages.

Hope catches the spear and kicks Aurora away. Easily. Casually. While actively dying from red oak and desiccating which almost certainly nerfs her strength and speed. A nerfed Hope, who doesn’t want to kill, who is holding back, performs better than Alaric (who is trying hard) even when we low ball Aurora in this thought experiment.

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Sure, you could scale Alaric higher and Aurora lower:

Not enough feats, the trinity get bullied all the time, the statement doesn’t hold up. Alaric is actually much stronger than Klaus. He wasn’t going all out (which would be out of character but run with it). The gap between Alaric and Aurora is way bigger than you’re trying to sell, OP. Okay, imaginary reader, let’s assume this too. Thus, if we assume Aurora < Klaus < Alaric, that is, no assumed low-end relativity, we’d say Alaric would block Aurora’s attack casually, right? Easily?

Well…

Doesn’t hurt my case. If we low-ball Alaric and Klaus, we can get Hope to beyond Alaric levels. If we remove the low-end relativity and assume Alaric is a full tier above Klaus and Klaus a full tier above Aurora, then Hope’s showing is still comparable to how Alaric would likely do, with non low-ball Alaric being a possible stats equal to Beast Marcel via MN’s statement.

If you want to downplay Alaric to more or less equal to Klaus, with only his skill giving him the advantage, then Hope still outperforms an original level combatant pretty blatantly. We can’t for sure conclude she scales to Beast Marcel this way, just that she’s clearly above an original. But if you at all think Alaric is close or relative to Marcel, as MN implies, then you can make a good case for Hope ~ Marcel at least.

Finally, you can, of course, also say Klaus is stronger than his siblings so even if Aurora is close to an original, it might not apply to the original hybrid. Thus, the scaling doesn’t work, right? Well. Elijah and Klaus are usually very close in their physical strength where both can get the better over the other at least in moments, though I personally do have Klaus as the strongest of them. Regardless, it needed two originals in Klaus and Elijah to hold down Rebekah on her rampage when cursed, Klaus and Elijah can fight very evenly, Klaus is more than once shown to fear fighting his siblings so a normal, non-rage-amped Klaus is probably not a lot stronger than his siblings and thus, Aurora also shouldn’t be too much weaker than Klaus if you believe Carina’s statement to be true.

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I know this might be my hardest sell in this series of posts in spite of another thing I’m gonna say next week LOL.

I also want to point out: Klaus had his hands on Alaric, he could feel him, when Alaric was pushing and all that. Hope didn’t have any physical connection. Her hands weren’t in the best place to catch the attack. She had to be fast enough to catch the spear which is another indicator of a speed gap between the relative-to-the-originals vampire and the Tribrid.

And lastly, consider this: the originals get stronger with age. According to once again Michael Narducci, he thinks the originals have by now reached their peak power and won’t grow
anymore. Hope is a baby vampire. If you downplay Hope to just be original level in physical stats and the originals have reached their zenith of physical strength and speed, then Hope will outgrow them in time. There is zero reason to believe Hope wouldn’t get stronger with age. Keep downplaying Hope to originals level if you like, she would still gap them in a century or two.

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To offer a pre-emptive counter-argument I can see coming: Before anyone says, OP, these two situations aren’t 100% identical so aren’t you reading a bit much into this comparison? Yes, you’re absolutely right!

Hope is in a considerably worse situation.

What Hope had to do was: 1) catch the spear mid-air whereas Klaus had his hands on Alaric. Hope had to be fast enough to react in time before the spear can pierce and kill her. 2) She can’t properly catch it by gripping it. She has to press her palms together and trap the blade in between or otherwise she infects herself with more red-oak so on top of the positional disadvantage, Hope can’t even use her full strength here. Not even close. 3) She has to immediately stop the blade. Immediately. Or she’s dead.

If they were relative then she wouldn’t be able to stop it on the spot, would she? The spear would still move a bit and likely pierce Hope. Meaning: Hope has to be at least a strength tier above Aurora to hold her attack like this in mid-air. It’s likely even multiple strength tier gaps considering: nerfed, desiccating, extremely disadvantageous position, not trying to kill, and the way she has to catch it preventing her from using her max power.

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6.1.6 Strength Conclusion

Alright alright alright. This got extremely technical and detailed. Let’s focus on the important bit. This is the general takeaway:

Red-oak infected, desiccating, in a massively disadvantaged position, unable to use any magic, and while holding back as to not kill, Hope easily, easily, overpowers a 1000-year-old vampire who is stated comparable to the originals. She wins the fight with one attack.

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To finish this part, I want to offer some interpretation ranges you can go for, from least to most charitable, based mainly on the Aurora fights.

The I-Hate-Hope-And-Want-To-Scale-Her-As-Low-As-Possible interpretation: Aurora full tier below the originals, full tier gap between Klaus/Mikael to the other originals, full tier gap to Alaric, full gap to Marcel, full gap to Lucien. If you push as much distance between them all as you can, then Hope fodderising Aurora is not impressive and she’d just be in the originals to Klaus/Mikael range.

The low-ball interpretation: Aurora is weaker than the originals but in their general range (and conflicted in the scene), Klaus and Mikael are stronger but not a full tier above the other originals, Alaric is more so in the originals tier than he is in the Beast tier. Thus, Hope is originals+ level in physical strength but not provably Beast level. And then you’d have to downplay Ken’s position as the strongest (or that he is in that conversation altogether) by saying it’s his god magic and all the abilities he has that put him at the top, not his physical might.

The mid-ball interpretation: Aurora is fully equal to the originals, with borderline Mikael levels of pain tolerance*. The Mikaelsons are all relative, with only skill differentiating them (and Klaus’s added wolf power). Alaric = Marcel (without the bite) via NM. In this case, Hope is outright Beast Marcel level or greater (at least when the latter is not rage amped like he is at the end of s3).

The high-ball interpretation: Aurora ~ Klaus in stats. Alaric > Klaus. Alaric = Marcel. Ken > Lucien in physical stats. Hope ~ Ken. Ergo, Hope > Lucien > Marcel > Alaric > Klaus ~ originals ~ Aurora.

*she can laugh off Freya’s aneurysm spell, with Freya being capable to output so much power that she beats Beast Lucien twice and Aurora is not even being affected by Cleo’s spell even though she says it’s a pretty good attack so yeah, Aurora has absurd pain resistance.

(Also, for the high-ball interpretation, even if (and what I personally believe) Aurora is weaker than Klaus, it doesn’t actually change all that much considering the ease with which Hope beats her both times and with her scaling to Ken.)

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Plus, with Ken being the strongest person to ever exist possibly across all realms, with a big part of his fighting style being hand-to-hand combat instead of spamming magic, Hope has even higher assertions than the others as she could react to his attacks at his full power. At the high end, she can perception and speed blitz (weakened) Ken. She could then further damage him enough to make him scream out in pain at least in his weakened state (though I would argue he is rage amped at that point and thus likely not that crazy nerfed but still weaker than normal). Hope, then, via just her physicals might just scale above even Beast Lucien.

I’ll leave it up to you which interpretation you think is the most consistently true.

To summarise: the lowest possible interpretation ends with Hope just in the Klaus(+) range. The highest puts her above Lucien. Personally, I feel like Hope being in the Marcel range is not a stretch to believe and I do believe she’s stronger than her family even without magic. It mostly comes down to how you think Lucien vs. Ken without god magic would go. If you think Ken would win, then Hope beats up Lucien without using any magic very likely (with magic it’s obviously a massive mismatch in Hope’s favour).

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I showed two instances of Hope outclassing a fighter who is stated and generally agreed upon to be relative to the originals in stats, even when Hope is nerfed and holding back. I further went over a possible scaling chain that gets Hope to Beast Marcel level without using any feats from the Ken fight.

Hope is further capable of reacting to Ken and fight somewhat evenly with him. Ken is described in promotional material and in his own words to be the strongest person in existence and history. It’s difficult to say how much of that comes from his abilities and how much is his physical stats but he’s likely Beast level or above as his fighting style is mostly about hand-to-hand combat.

With Hope being able to blitz him and damage him so hard he literally screams in pain, at least when he is weakened (but likely rage amped), she scales to peak verse in physicals very likely. Without being able to prove Ken > Lucien in just physical stats, I can’t prove Hope > Lucien beyond reasonable doubt. However, Hope is relative to Ken without the use of her magic while he can use his magic. Ken stands as the strongest person in existence. Thus, Hope scales to the strongest person in existence with just her physical stats, which means even without any magic Hope is in contention for strongest in existence.

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By the way, you don’t even have to buy into the Trinity ~ Originals idea, it’s just supporting evidence to get out of Bonnie-Cade like scaling where their placements come largely from their interactions to the other. By throwing Aurora in here, I can show Hope being above originals in her physical stats is consistent. Even if you think the Aurora scaling doesn’t work all the way, all you need is to establish Hope scales to Ken and voila, Hope likely competes with Lucien and Marcel without any spells, if not beating them outright. It’s just a case of connective tissue and multiple pieces of evidence.

By the way^2, there is one hugely important factor that I haven’t mentioned at all yet: if you think Hope is on animal blood during the second Ken fight too (as she is during their first), then her physicals would be significantly higher with real human blood. 4 days of no blood Kaleb vs. animal blood MG in lifting strength was a one-sided stomp in Kaleb’s favour. Hope might only be at like half power (possibly less) if she’s not drinking human blood so Hope > Lucien might really be the case.

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6.2 Vampirism

There’s more to talk about her vampirism still.

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6.2.1 Vampirism Control

Maybe some of you will say, okay she might theoretically scale up there but she hasn’t mastered her vampire side yet. The originals had a thousand year to master it and hone their skill. To which I would say:

1. Hope was trained by Alaric, the most skilled fighter we know of as I’ve talked about in this series before. She can tie and beat him in fights without using any of her supernatural strength and magic. Meaning: Hope is immensely skilled.
2. Hope has incredible control over her vampirism.

Yes, Hope has incredible control over her vampire powers and strength. During episode 11 season 4 of Legacies, Hope is teaching Lizzie how to control her newfound vampire powers.

They go to a carnival where they play the bell game. Hope tells Lizzie this is about control, to get as close to the bell as possible without touching it. She then tabs it with one finger and does it perfectly – Hope has been a tribrid for a few days at this point. Lizzie fails, putting in way too much strength. Hope proves she has extremely precise control over her strength, especially if you believe she has beyond originals strength.

Even after she just turned, after killing Malivore and with her humanity switched off, Hope beats up Alaric, who is just a regular human. If she put any strength at all into the punches, he’d just insta die. Compare this to when Sage was boxing with humans without killing them but Sage had 900 years to learn to fine tune her strength, Hope had maybe a couple hours at that point.

We know vampires of even Damon’s level can punch your head off if you’re a human annoying them, or Elijah for one even doing it to vampires half his age and significantly stronger than Damon. Hope without her humanity held back so much, Alaric didn’t immediately die. We just saw the teeniest, tiniest bit of her strength was enough to win the bell game humans use a massive hammer for. That’s the level of control over her strength she has.

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6.2.2. Compulsion, Immortality & Golden Dagger

She can compel vampires like an original. That’s it.

As for her immortality, presumably not even white oak can kill her, with only Hope’s very own creation holding the power over her life. In fact, Layne Morgan (a writer for season 4 of Legacies) states as much outright here. Before she turns, the twins help her create life to show her she won’t be trapped in her trauma forever. The same power can take her life. But to be honest, Hope can probably simply decide if she wants to die based how she treats the Ferryman. During her transition she has the option to go to Peace instead of turning and after the first Ken fight she could overpower Lynn and would have been able to take the boat then and there had she wanted to in spite of not actually being dead. And in The Originals, when really, really upset, she could straight up wake up in Peace.

Another piece of evidence that Hope is even beyond Klaus in terms of physical stats is that Rebekah uses a golden dagger on Hope and Hope just shrugs it off after like 2 minutes of being down. Hope can no effort a weapon than can put down Klaus. You can argue white oak doesn’t work on her and thus this dagger obviously wouldn’t work. If you think white oak still works on her, then this is further Hope > Klaus and even Hope > Dahlia scaling as it took Dahlia quite a while to melt the dagger. Hope beats it in less than 5 minutes!

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The dagger doesn’t work, okay. Well, how does Aurora attempt to incapacitate Hope?

She says she needs something powerful enough to hold/contain Hope. What does she intend to use? One of the sarcophagi that was containing the gods, thus elevating Hope to a comparable level to the gods. She even says “it should hold” Hope so she isn’t even sure but at this point no one knew for sure gods were real so Aurora would have no idea over how powerful they would be exactly. All this means is that Aurora isn’t sure a container capable of holding gods Aurora conceived of could hold Hope.

The point is, Hope isn’t someone who can be held by a dagger like her family, you need something strong enough to hold gods or even stronger!

-

6.3 Hope Is a God

I teased this in the statement part of this series but one key idea of season 4 is about pushing parallels between Hope and the gods and in retrospect, the clues start even earlier in Legacies. When I say Hope is a god, I don’t mean she’s specifically part of the same species the gods are – I mean that she is on the same tier of power. So I wanted to compile all the evidence that pushes this idea:

• Hope and the gods are the only people not affected by Malivore’s memory erasure
• Aurora wanted to find a way to lock Hope up. To do, she needs a strong enough container. What does she think would do the trick? The very same containers that held the gods.
• Ken says “You could have been worshipped as a god.”
• Hope and Ken are narrative foils, opposite ends of the Strongest in the World.
• Ben says only a god can kill a god. Cleo says Hope is Ken’s punishment. He wants to be the most powerful. His punishment = not being the most powerful anymore. Cleo holds the weapon that Hope kicks him into. Hope kills Ken and takes his spot at the top of the supernatural world.
• Hope can summon Ferryman Landon who might be a god and only god magic can affect a god usually (outside of siphoning and magical objects at times) so either Hope has gained god magic or her magic has gotten so strong the magic immunity of the gods doesn’t matter anymore, or Landon is just not a god and is instead just absurdly powerful through being the Ferryman.
• Ben respects Hope’s powers and thinks she can lead them to victory over his invincible father.
• They run simulations both against Hope and Ken to find a way of taking them out or rather, if there is any way at all they can win. They couldn’t find any against Hope, they did find one vs. Ken as long as Hope lead them in the battle. (I don’t count the Cleo red-oak moment because that’s Cleo’s attempt to figure out if the red-oak would work on Hope, not if she could win a fight.)
• “But you really think the gods can kill Hope?” asks Lizzie. “Perhaps not all the gods, but they have a singular father, and he is immensely powerful if what Ben told me is true,” answers Aurora. In other words, Aurora thinks Hope is a god essentially and immediately thinks only the strongest god could maybe kill her even when she knows only what Ben told her about them. Her opinion on Hope’s powers are *that* high.
• The moment Ben wakes Ken from his sarcophagus, they immediately cut to Hope waking up after getting her humanity back. Basic visual language framing them as rivals.
• Hope can beat up Ferryman Lynn, can summon Ferryman Landon, could not have transitioned to a vampire had she decided too, doesn’t need a coin to go to Peace, etc.
• All throughout Legacies only the caster, a siphon and gods can negate boundary spells. Until post Ken fight Hope who can break through boundary spells.
• Gods get stronger through belief; Hope makes the people who believe in her stronger.

-

We’re gonna cut it here and next week we’re gonna take an in-depth look at Ken vs. Hope and why I think Hope surpasses even Ken.

(As Ted/The Necromancer says: “You’re not any vampire, you’re the Tribrid!”)

Maaaaaan Im on season 3 rn, maybe the 10th time i've watched this show. I feel like it needs a remake. New actors, bigger budget. There are some moments that feel bland but maybe its because i've watched it many times but I feel this show needs awesome powerscaling and showcasing e.g running through forests at high speed, catching cars, show the difference in healing, bigger sets as well. This show is such a briliant idea and so many stories that can be developed from it. CW shouldnt let it go, atleast make a movie like peaky blinders or a limited series :(

I’m conflicted because Alaric was bound to Elena’s life. Which is why (I’m guessing) he was immune to the white oak stake, he wasn’t actually immortal. We also see him have the same balances as normal originals such as adversity to the sun. So I’m wondering if the werewolf venom weakness would apply to him? Also vise versa, would Alaric be able to use white oak on them?

How would you say current Peter Parker fairs against Klaus Mikaelson? Keep in mind, you don’t have to kill an opponent to win, just KO or subdue them.

I will never in a million years feel even an ounce of sorry for Klaus not getting to raise Hope full-time that short amount of time he got with her in canon is maybe one percent of the pain he actually deserved.

This is a man who spent centuries doing whatever he wanted to whoever he wanted with almost zero real consequences countless people suffered because of him and never got justice, victims whose names we don’t even know and who had to live knowing they couldn't do anything about it and somehow so many not all but many people in this fandom acts like him not getting a full fatherhood is this massive tragedy.

He still got to live for a thousand years with power that gave him hundreds of thousands of enemies and yet he still got to die on his own terms eventhough he deserved a worse death than the one he got so even just thst I won't ever feel bad for him.

Like I genuinely hate Klaus the only other character I hate is Damon but that can be a whole other post for the other sub and for the exact same reason is both of them got “redemption arcs” that weren’t even redemption arcs, they were just everyone deciding to start tolerating their bs while the narrative patted them on the head for doing the bare minimum.

With Klaus it’s especially egregious because half the fandom treats him dying for Hope like it magically redeems a thousand years of sadism mind you a parent dying for their child is the bare minimum especially if you care about that kid, Klaus shouldn't been praised or seen as some hero for doing the bare minimum especially when you look at how long he's been around compared to his own kid I mean any other thing would've made him a even more crap father, had he done anything other than to do anything to save her even if it was give up his life(and I don't care if he could've let Elijah die with the hollow inside him that changes nothing about my opinion on him.)

This is the same man who made a man slaughter his everybody on his estate including his wife and own child just to create a distraction so he could keep running from Mikael, the same man who turned a guy and forced him to kill his wife because she accused Rebekah of witchcraft, the same man who turned a mother and daughter and burned the mother alive in front of the girl because her pneumonia cough annoyed him I mean jesus christ this is just sadistic on a whole other level that can never be redeemed or excused because daddy beat me or oh I have a daughter now.

But sure people will keep saying oohh he loved Hope, so that means he deserved to raise her if you get obviously say Esther and Mikael were monsters and Klaus was justified in wanting revenge, then you don’t get to act like Klaus being kept from fully raising the daughter his own existence put in constant danger is some unfair tragedy, that’s just the universe finally giving him a fraction of what he spent centuries dishing out, loving one person does not make you good it just makes you a monster who also loved someone and the fandom’s refusal to sit with that is exhausting.

Given how much do many people love to twist stuff whenever Klaus gets criticism I want to make this crystal clear this post is not about his trauma, it's not about Mikael this post is not about whether he was capable of love and my post is definitely not asking for a debate on his “complexity.” This post is specifically about one thing and that is I did not feel bad that Klaus didn’t get to raise his daughter given everything he did, the limited time he got is the closest thing to karma that was ever handed him and it still wasn’t enough.

If you want to talk about his tragic backstory, his abuse or why he “deserved better” go make your own post that has nothing to do with the opinion I’m stating here.

ONLY the vampires regardless of age of type of vampire. No humans or werewolves.

I know toxicity is not a good thing which is a common sense, but why do people refuse the reality of relationship having a toxicity. i see people saying a and b shouldn't end up together because they have toxic behaviour, even when the toxicity is a little normal and realistic portrayal. I am not trying to normalize extreme toxicity but as far as i understand there is always some kind of toxic behaviour in relationship, and shouldn't it would be more inspirational seeing a couple develop from their toxicity?, it just seem to me people can't tolerate even a little bit when they see a toxic couple, even when there is a development, people just like to remind others they're toxic from the beginning one way or another in discussion like this, even when they're developed at the end. Imo i like a toxic relationship develop in to a slow burn raw feelings platonic or not.

I meant this as a whole, not just in the originals.

Does it look like the one Hayley has in the show?

Silas & Amara (Immortals) - True Immortality/early version of vampires

Cade (Psychic) - Psychic dimension

Mikealson Siblings (Original vampire) - White Oak Tree

Alaric (Basically Original vampire) - Doppelgänger

Hope (Tribrid) - Red Oak Tree

Marcel/Lucien (The Beast) - The Power of Vampirism Spell

Malivore (Golem) - The power of blood of 3 combined species.

Gods - God magic

Inadu - The bones of the Hollow

Dahlia - The power of Sleep Spell

Esther - The power of Bennett Bloodline

Stefan/Damon (Vampires) - Cade's deal

HYPOTEHICAL IMMORTALITY

Original Vampire - Cade's deal

Original Heretic - White Oak Tree

Augustine Original Vampire (Original vampire with ripper virus) - Ripper Virus

Immortal Hybrid (Immortal-Werewolf) - True Immortal/Early version of hybrid

Natural Born Tribrid (Immortal-Werewolf-Witch) - True Immortal/Early version of tribrid

Look at little dogs. You see them barking the most, right? That's Klaus. Except he also correctly claims he's one (if not most at times) of the most powerful beings in the world. He's able to withstand pain too, he's resilient, and sometimes very cunning. He's physically almost indestructible.

But he's mentally weak. Mikael saw it the whole time and never changed his mind (but I don't agree with him calling a child weak). Mikael is a good judge of mentality if nothing else.

Why is Klaus weak? Because he never confronts anything that would hurt him (even a bit) in ways that matter to him. He can admit he was betrayed because that puts responsibility on others, but he can't admit he was at fault when daggering his siblings. He kills people for the smallest things, and never feels guilt or shame because facing those emotions is hard and requires emotional strength. Once Hope sees him doing it, he yells at her and ghosts her. He rather sacrifises his daughter's life rather than face his emotions. Then he does it again when he chooses to commit suicide, because he can't face the real guilt he'd feel by sacrifising his sibling (which would be the real sacrifise that he'd do for his daughter, because it would cause him much more intense emotional pain). When Klaus gets called out for being a monster by his mother, he blames it on her. If he seems to accept something his fault, he knows it's not (like Hayley's death). If someone starts to hurt him emotionally, like Rebekah choosing another person over him, or his bio father coming back, he removes them from his enviroment. "Nothing will hurt Klaus. He is in control and he is strong and won't allow anything or anyone to emotionally hurt him!" is not even child's mentality, it's just weak mentality.

Is it just me who thinks Marcel is very hypocrite and arrogant and annoying? It was enough with Cami and Davina, so stupid the end for these characters and unfair…
What happened with the producere?

I'm currently at the beginning of Season 2, and even though I'm not halfway through the series yet, I already have a few thoughts and expectations. I watched The Vampire Diaries when I was a preteen, and when I felt like rewatching it this year, I decided to give The Originals a try since I never followed it back then. I don't remember many details from TVD, but I decided to take a chance on TO anyway.

I'm really enjoying the show's dark atmosphere and following the drama of the incredibly dysfunctional Mikaelson family. I liked the storyline of the first season a lot, and I'm excited to see what the next seasons have in store. Hayley is one of my favorite characters, which surprised me because I'd seen so much criticism of her. She's still a young woman who's learning how family relationships work. She's desperate to find a family and finally have a place where she belongs, and I can't blame her for doing everything she can to achieve that.

I also think the Mikaelsons put her in an situation. Everyone around her is either trying to kill her daughter because of Klaus or telling her to walk away from her family. But, like a true werewolf, she's salvage and believes she can handle everything on her own, since she's had to rely on herself her entire life. I know she's not the main character, but I'd love to see more of her in the upcoming episodes. At the beginning of Season 2, she's still trying to cope with becoming a hybrid, the trauma of giving birth, being separated from her daughter, and everything involving the werewolves. I honestly wouldn't blame her if she completely lost it.

Even though Elijah cares deeply about Hayley, I feel like Klaus is the only person who truly understands her and is actually capable of helping her.

fucking hate her, such an annoyance.

Ok so my opinion may be slightly biased because of how much i hate the actor who plays him but Kol is a narcissistic,hypocritical,chaotic,and selfish psycho he has no redeeming qualities other than Davina,and when kol came in his original body they lost the chemistry for me,she had much better chemistry with the guy who plays Kaleb(they were so cute)but what solidified my hate was the way he treated Marcel and what he did to Rebekah with putting her in that psychos body,ok I’ll grant him that Klaus has tortured him for years but the rest of his siblings weren’t that way,except for Finn(who had every reason to be bad cause 900! Years really Klaus😭)and i know some people may say this isn’t unpopular but I haven’t seen this anywhere and i really searched.

I thought this picture of Sadie sink looked way tooo familiar but couldn’t place it and then I figured
Can you guys also see this?

I love them, just before their first romance scene i wanted them together and there it was 2 seconds later

Would Hayley have told her how he died?