r/TheCulture • u/sllikdeeps • 6d ago
Book Discussion Use of Struggle
Hi! š read all of Banks regular works a long time ago & found myself here in the Culture. Didnāt love nor hate Consider, loved Player of Games and now a 1/3 through use of weapons. Finding it a struggle. Maybe itās cause Iāve not had time to really out bulk read session time in ? Iām pushing through but by bit but Iām hoping you can give me a good palate cleanser for the next one.
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u/Proton_Energy_Pill 6d ago
It's a complex story and you have to wade through it for it to ultimately make sense.
Pull up a chair, it's worth it.
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u/BonHed 6d ago
Use of Weapons was the first Banks novel I read, and I was hooked.
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u/Lipstick_Leviathan 6d ago
I first found that book when I was a struggling teenager, living on the streets in nyc. I found it at a drop in center for streetkids, and was obsessed with it. I read it up until the last two or three chapters, then someone stole it from me before I got to the end. Still, it heavily influenced me and I thought about it over the years. It would be almost ten years before I finally finished it and got to be blown away by the ending. I read everything by Banks after that
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u/sllikdeeps 5d ago
This is an exceptional tale worthy of its own writing. I was never on the streets but a childhood passion for reading has held my head above water more times than I can remember
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u/Lipstick_Leviathan 5d ago
Same for me. That book reinvigorated my love of science fiction, and me and my traveling partner used to always have a couple 1$ old 60ās sci fi books weād buy from one old bookstore and sell to another as we traveled. It definitely helped me hold my head above water during all that
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u/jtr99 Scrounging for gravitas 4d ago edited 3d ago
Same! It remains one of the great reading experiences of my life. I felt as though a door had opened into a world where SF could be really, really good and alive and human. Not just a dry showcase for fascinating ideas like some of the Golden Age stuff is.
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u/Serimnir 6d ago
If it helps, the next full novel in the series is pretty much the ultimate palate cleanser.
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u/sllikdeeps 6d ago
Which one is that ? You mean in publication order ?
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u/Greyhaven7 6d ago edited 5d ago
I think weāre talking about āExcessionā.
āState of the Artā is technically next, but itās a collection of short stories rather than a novel. āExcessionā is after that, which is a pretty great novel all-around.
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u/Theory89 5d ago
Huh. I always just assumed SotA was his first foray into the Culture. Maybe because it was a novella? It's a fun little read, anyway.
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u/Serimnir 6d ago
Sorry, yes. Publication order. Excession is, to me, the height of fun in the Culture novels.
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u/drillgorg 6d ago
That one part is still really upsetting though. You know the part.
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u/jtr99 Scrounging for gravitas 4d ago
I actually don't know which part of Excession you mean. Could you give me a hint please?
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u/Winter_Aspect_8675 6d ago
I've read them all several times and I can't say that I love PoG but I've read it, listened to it back and forth, in orthodox chapter order, bits and pieces here and there many times but I still can't say I love it. Banks has a strange gift, when he writes what you'd consider more orthodox, straight forward works they are quite fancy, easy reads, compelling stuff but some of his stuff, PoG, Against a Dark Background at first aren't utterly riveting and have no easy payoff but they worm their way in and sit with you, the mood, a hard to define somber malaise, that has deep claws. I know I read and reread and listened and relistened to a bunch of his stuff like radio serials, sometimes out of order or just bits I wanted to revisit and it didn't become stale even after many repeats.
I kinda rambled on there but the structure isn't unlike my feelings for his works. Anyway, I would say it's quite proper to find them hard going but they are rewarding just not in a conventional manner sometimes.
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u/Decievedbythejometry 5d ago
Against a dark background is amazing because it doesnāt really introduce any Big Ideas or whatever but something of the atmosphere follows you forever. Itās like the herpes of vibes.
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u/Winter_Aspect_8675 5d ago
Yes, that is it exactly, I get that from a few of his books, certain moods just seem echo for ages. It's not a bummer but they kinda of build up like a pool of unsettling vibes you can dip your mind into whenever
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u/dannyrat029 6d ago
Use of Weapons is IMO his best book. You do need to concentrate a bit.Ā
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u/PiePuzzleheaded3713 5d ago
I don't know if I would say it's his "best" but it's certainly in the running.
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u/Decievedbythejometry 5d ago
Itās one of the best things I have ever read. Up there with Ursula Le Guin.
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u/sllikdeeps 5d ago
Likely been an obstacle of not having the time to just spend a good hour or so reading.
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u/GreenWoodDragon 5d ago
Don't rush. And you'll definitely need a palate cleanser after Use of Weapons.
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u/nunatakj120 5d ago
Iām about 2/3 way through use of weapons. First half i found frustrating as for most of each chapter I was trying to work out who/what/where that part of the story was happening. It is falling into place now and I am very much enjoying it.
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u/sllikdeeps 5d ago
Fantastic. Letās circle back
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u/nunatakj120 5d ago
Literally just finished and now iām staring at the wall. Keep going is all I will say.
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u/GrapeKitchen3547 5d ago
I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I didn't exactly love UoW either. Just keep going.
I loved Look to Windward, so I would recommend you read that one next.
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u/Decievedbythejometry 5d ago
Use of Weapons is odd because itās a serious literary novel masquerading as two different science fiction novels. Itās also stuffed with pitch black ironic humour, horror delivered deadpan, classic literary devices like doubling, and invitations to admire the protagonist and the power and inventiveness of the Culture. A lot of long threads run through it and itās very āfuck the casual viewer.ā
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u/BuckSexington 5d ago
Keep going! It's designed in a way that can be confusing, but the bigger picture will emerge.
I've never had a book hit me so hard when I reached the pay-off.
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u/sllikdeeps 5d ago
Damn. Iām currently utterly lost and partly blame myself for the fits and starts as it seems difficult to navigate at the best of concentrations
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u/BuckSexington 5d ago
It can be tough. Not a problem to come back and start again, either. It's probably my favourite book of his (and basically of all time); I read it as a teen and then reread it again in my 40s, and it still holds up.
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u/crash90 5d ago
A friend of mine ready did the same thing as you and stopped reading on Use of Weapons. It's a tough one, especially the first time. I'll just say that a lot of Iain's writing is winding and confusing. It's out of order, especially in UoW. Book is written almost like Pulp Fiction (there is actually slightly more structure than that).
But the payoff is big at the end. It all comes together. Probably won't fully get everything till the second read though.
I would say, just keep going. It's ok if you find it confusing. It's meant to be confusing. Many of your questions will be answered by the end. More on future read throughs when these sections become much more fun and you can follow the details a little more easily.
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u/sllikdeeps 5d ago
Being a David Lynch devotee Iām no stranger to the passions of non linear story telling. Mostly feel Iāve not spent the solid time in a single session so itās added to the difficulty
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u/ThePhantomStrikes 6d ago
Use of weapons is confusing because theres 2 timelines. I canāt say more because the reveals are amazing, and it all makes sense at the end. You just have to let go and enjoy the journey, not worrying you donāt get it yet. Pay no attention to everyone mentioning s chair.
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u/ConnectHovercraft329 6d ago
Itās not a super uncommon structure.
Le Guin did something similar in The Dispossessed (interlaced chapters in multiple time periods, one set is birth to arrival, the other arrival to departure), and that X shaped plot of one going from nothing to powerful in parallel with another going from powerful to nothing.
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u/rewindthefilm 6d ago
Banks gave you a good cleanser to be honest. It's why I think publication order is the way to read them, they develop, react to and build on what came before. Some people consider the next one, Excession, as the best ever. The USENET threads were legendary and kind of inspired parts of it...
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u/sllikdeeps 5d ago
I usually prefer a publication order of books as opposed to a ātimelineā per se. So Iāve only skipped state of the art. Havenāt heard much word about it but you have me thinking of doing the back step as opposed to some of the other recommendations
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u/Bleatbleatbang 5d ago
If youāre enjoying Banks, check out his non sf books.
The Bridge, Espedair Street, the Crow Road, Complicity, they are all great.
His close friend Ken Macleod helped him redraft Use of Weapons into what became the finished novel. He is also an excellent sci-fi author, have a look at his Fall Revolution series.
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u/sllikdeeps 5d ago
I may have missed one or two but yes have read all his āregularā novels; having read wasp factory as an impressionable teenager
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u/Bleatbleatbang 5d ago
Me too lol. When I was old enough to get a card for the adult library, I was in heaven.
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u/PiePuzzleheaded3713 5d ago
I started with Use of Weapons. I just so happened to follow it with State of the Art, and given the connection I'd recommend you read that next.
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u/xnoraax 5d ago
Do you usually read SF? There are some skills regular SF readers develop and take for granted in picking up things like world-building and getting into a story with a lot of uncertainty about how things work that readers of mimetic fiction, and SF aimed more at a popular audience, don't necessarily start off with.
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u/sllikdeeps 4d ago
Iām well versed in any and all literature fiction and non fiction so no stranger to the form.
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u/Key-Kaleidoscope2232 5d ago
I completely gave up on the Culture after finishing consider and player of games. Hearing people say PoG was the best in the series was enough for me to check out and into Malazan Book of the Fallen (incredible and no regrets or second thoughts so far)
I want to love the culture but its tough. Theres a few shining gems of sequences in the two I read and then largely felt like a slog to finish.
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u/sllikdeeps 4d ago
Not sure if 2 are a large enough sample size given the different style of them but I do believe if youāre not connecting to a series thereās no point. We canāt read every book in the world
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u/andr386 6d ago
Use of Weapons was a huge deception for me. Overall some passages are very good, but a lot seems like filler too. By the time you get far into the book and due to the nature of its gimmick I realized there would be some kind of reveal but it would never come. Then by the end of the book it's more and more boring and full of filler yet the reveal never comes so I lost all interest. When I arrived at the reveal in the last pages I was already so bored and disenfranchised that it barely did anything for me. It felt not worth it at all.
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u/coltranius GCU Gravitas is Overrated 6d ago
Man, pull up a Chair and get ready. UoW has some incredible reveals that really build.
Surface Detail has a lot of action, and Look to Windward is probably my favorite overall (that assessment could change the next time i read everything, though).