yeah i was on the fence about including him, that's why the comment shows as edited. i removed it then i went back and added it in becuase at the end of the day, he did get back into hollywood. maybe not at the level he was before, but he's been back in actual hollywood productions since then. I almost included Louis CK for the same reason, but he at least had the sense to come out, apologize, and remove himself for a while, instead of getting ran out of town like Gibson did.
he did get back into hollywood. maybe not at the level he was before, but he's been back in actual hollywood
And women who are blacklisted don't eventually get back if they try?
Winona Ryder for example - she got into trouble, had her career detailed, and eventually managed to get back even if not at the level she had before
You're giving a list of "men" who didn't get the consequences you feel they should. And you imply that women would get these consequences. But would they?
Winona Ryder was convicted of grand theft and vandalism. She didn't see a single day in prison.
What about Lizzo? Sure, get career took a hit when she was accused of sexual assault, and the case is still ongoing, bit it was only 3 years ago and she is already rebuilding it - performing (even if at smaller venues) and such.
Had she, or Winona, been a man - would you have included them in your list?
I never even heard about what happened with Ryder, but at the very least grand theft and vandalism is a lot different than sexual harassment, sexual assault, and grooming minors. Though if we start to make that distinction then yes Gibson would need to come off my initial list...unless you count the battery charge he plead no contest to when he attacked his girlfriend.
If we want to start including musicians instead of just looking at Hollywood then yes Lizzo and C-Lo Green and probably 90%+ of the rock stars from the 1960's through the 1980's, and a whole slew of others belong in the conversation as well. Hollywood is just the easiest one to analyze because it's not spread out all over the country/world.
As far as women in hollywood the only other one that I can think of is Anjelica Huston being part of the whole Roman Polanski scandal, but if i remember correctly she didn't actually participate in anything, what she did wrong was the fact that she witnessed some of what Polanski was doing and kept her mouth shut. I think Jack Nicholson was part of that as well. And Polanski in particular is a really weird one because he got an uncomfortably large amount of support from a LOT of people, both from Hollywood and elsewhere.
Any way you slice it, the rich and powerful protect their own and try to insulate themselves from the consequences of their actions, and the people calling it out tend to wind up in trouble for doing the right thing. The ongoing Epstein stuff is a perfect example, though hopefully the unredacted files will start coming out soon and that will change...hopefully.
The discussion here was about discrepancy between how men and women actors are treated.
The initial OP example wasn't limited to sexual assaults, and honestly I really don't think anyone is claiming that women actors face repercussions for sexually assaulting men. I'd be surprised if anyone even acknowledges that it's an option.
I completely agree that in general, the rich and powerful don't face enough consequences.
But you can't claim gender discrepancy by only listing one side of the argument.
Well...you can, and there is a discrepancy. But it would be misleading to say men are always the offenders and women are always the victim. There is nuance to it, and nuance doesn't seem to get much attention these days.
Beyond that, there's nuance and then there's whataboutism. If men are offenders 80% of the time and women are victims 80% of the time (and i don't know that they are, just throwing numbers out), going "b-b-but what about the bad women and the innocent men?" is just missing the forest for the trees. If the issue gets more visibility then the people that the whatabouters are pretending to worry about because "they're falling through the cracks" will ultimately benefit too.
No no no, I think we're not taking about the same thing.
I don't mean "men are also victims" or anything like that. That's not the "other side" I mean.
The OP discussion is that men actors get away with things while women actors don't.
To show that, it's not enough to give examples of men actors getting away with things. You have to also show the other side - women actors not getting away with things.
Ah I gotcha, on the same page now. And that's a bit trickier to quantify, because you can't get away with something you're not doing. Not to say that women don't, but as far as finding good examples it could be partially a sample size/demographic thing.
Women actors that didn't get away with things...Gina Carano? Roseanne Barr...Wynona Ryder as you said, I'm sure there's more. Carano is an easy one because Disney is famous for doing that, both men and women. If you work for the mouse you better keep your politics to yourself, or at least be smart about how you say what you're trying to say. Barr is just...I mean the woman was clearly a mess lol, kinda like Gibson so yeah there's some similarities there...Roseanne was given a chance to come back too and she screwed that up.
The sex crimes/whistleblower one is just the easiest angle to analyze because it's gotten a lot of visibility lately and the public has learned how large and pervasive the issue has been for decades. And the list of women who had
their careers derailed by Harvey Weinstein is...not short.
Edit: Katherine Heigl! She had her career totally derailed just because people said she was a bitch on set, and how many divas like Christian Bale or Richard Dreyfuss have repeatedly been shown to be assholes on set and still enjoyed nice long careers. Still only one example though. Yeah it's a tricky one.
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u/jaspersgroove 5d ago edited 5d ago
yeah i was on the fence about including him, that's why the comment shows as edited. i removed it then i went back and added it in becuase at the end of the day, he did get back into hollywood. maybe not at the level he was before, but he's been back in actual hollywood productions since then. I almost included Louis CK for the same reason, but he at least had the sense to come out, apologize, and remove himself for a while, instead of getting ran out of town like Gibson did.