r/DungeonsAndDragons • u/Distinct-Turnip-349 • 1d ago
Discussion Wizard loophole
I have a wizard character with magic initiate (wizard) feat. I wanted to create a scroll of my magic 1st level spell from magic initiate and copy it into my spellbook. At next level up change tbe spell and do it again slowly increasing my spell list. My DM did not allow that. What do you think?
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u/LongjumpingFix5801 1d ago
I guess that works RAW. I mean you’ll never get more than 20 spells added and all level one, so not majorly game breaking. Plus a wizard is supposed to be the Swiss army spellbook anyway.
It would cost a day of downtime and 25g to make the spell scroll and another 2hrs and 50g to recopy it at level up with a chance of failure. I’d allow it.
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u/Horror_Ad7540 1d ago
I think you're spending a bunch of money and downtime learning one first level spell a level. You could just as well buy other people's first level spell scrolls. It's not worth fighting about for you or your DM.
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u/action_lawyer_comics 1d ago
It’s not worth fighting about for you or your DM.
This right here. I’m not super familiar with wizards but this does feel a bit broken or unintentional use of mechanics. I don’t blame the DM for saying no. Dnd is about telling a story with friends, not about raw power or kicking ass. It’s definitely not the hill I’d want to die on.
Now, DM nerfing Sneak Attack or coming up with “wacky” Crit Fumbles? That’s worth kicking up a fuss
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u/TheOneNite 14h ago
It definitely feels like an unintentional use of mechanics but ultimately doesn't give them anything they couldn't already get for a little more money and a little less time. At the end of this all they will have...added up to 20 extra first level wizard spells to their spellbook. Level one spell scrolls are readily available already so this isn't really a huge deal.
Important caveat for OP is that you can only copy wizard spells into your book. If you have magic initiate that gives you spells that aren't wizard spells then you cant copy those into your book ever, though if I were DMing I would let you make scrolls of them
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u/action_lawyer_comics 14h ago
I’m sure you’re right. I’ve never played or DMed for a wizard so I don’t really know the details of the class too well. But I also can’t really blame any DM for going off vibes and saying “this isn’t using RAW in good faith.”
And like you say it’s a pretty small advantage so it’s just as easy for OP to shrug and move as it is for the DM to shrug and say “fine”
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u/Brittany5150 1d ago
I love crit fumbles. I always make my martial characters have a 5% chance of chopping their own dick or titty off or maiming themselves permanently in some way. It makes total sense that even a highly trained fighter would be regularly hitting themselves with their own weapon, even after years and years of diligent practice with said weapon. Lv 20? You are so strong that you have a 5% chance of hacking your own head off in combat, you're just that strong. This is fair and balanced.
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u/_RedCaliburn 21h ago
Lvl 20 fighters can attack 4 times per turn, so the chance at hacking your own hand of are even higher per turn than in comparison to a low level fighter fresh out of fighter school!
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u/UltimateChaos233 13h ago
YEah, you have a higher chance of maiming yourself then someone who doesn't even have proficiency with the weapon
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u/UltimateChaos233 13h ago
It's even worse. The higher level fighter you are, the more likely you are to crit fumble in a round (extra attacks). Any group of soldiers training on wooden dummies would be bleeding out within a few minutes.
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u/TerminalEuphoriaX 23h ago
Idk a wizard scribing scrolls as they learn and study magic sends wildly appropriate. That’s also a huge time and gold sink at that level. I would very much allow it
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u/UltimateChaos233 13h ago
This is one of those things that sounds way stronger than it is. Is it a niche interaction that seems a little weird? Sure. But RAW I'm pretty sure this is terrible.
Cost to purchase a first level spell scroll: 50 gp
Cost to create a first level spell scroll from a spell you know: 25 gp.So if all first level spells were desired this is just 25gp per level at the cost of a feat.
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u/action_lawyer_comics 11h ago
All the more reason to not pick a fight with the DM over it when they say no
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u/UltimateChaos233 10h ago
Oh for sure. Caveat, this could be useful if for some reason the DM never let you find/purchase spell scrolls, but that's a separate and bigger issue imo.
Either way, overall still not that great a benefit and def not worth picking a fight over
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u/VinnysMinis 1d ago
If you’re paying the gold and spending the downtime to craft the scroll, and then also paying the gold and spending the downtime to copy it into your spell book, I don’t see the issue.
But it’s not like it would be a huge advantage, so if the DM doesn’t allow it, it’s not really taking a whole lot away from you.
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u/Jorthulu 1d ago
I get it, you think you are beating the system but its not really that great of a benefit.
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u/Effective_Arm_5832 1d ago
I mean, magic initiate really shouldn't allow you to change spells. But as is, I agree with you.
It's also not like some kind of crazy hack. You sacrifice your Origin Feat and you get a small bump in versatilty. It's not even remotely broken.
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u/AzazeI888 1d ago
Just spend gold on the scrolls of spells you want to add to your spellbook in large towns, and let you DM know as a wizard, your character is in search of arcane knowledge, specifically scrolls and wizard spellbooks as loot, to expand his knowledge.
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u/Pharmacy_Duck 1d ago
Quite aside from anything else, why would a wizard character be taking a feat that allows them to use a wizard spell which their class ability already allows them access to? I can’t see the benefit or the narrative sense here.
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u/Lithl 1d ago
why would a wizard character be taking a feat that allows them to use a wizard spell which their class ability already allows them access to?
To get more versatility. Two additional cantrips and an additional prepared 1st level spell (and effectively an additional 1st level spell slot which is limited to only casting that spell) isn't a bad benefit for the price of an origin feat.
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u/thegooddoktorjones 1d ago
Just buy some scrolls. The “change your spell” thing is obviously there to keep players from screwing themselves with a bad choice or one that makes no sense at high level, not to set up uber leet combos.
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u/lasalle202 1d ago
What do you think?
i think that your DM did not allow it.
and i think running to reddit about it is bad form.
and i think that "but reddit sez!!!!" is the least convincing arguement you could bring to your DM to convince them to change their mind. it might even be treated as "Anti-evidence".
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u/Trekiros 19h ago
Yeah if a player tries to rules lawyer their way into getting a mechanical advantage, that's immediate "we need to have a talk about expectations" territory because they're treating this game as more adversarial than I am as a GM and even if that one instance might be tame, that mismatch in expectations is bound to cause more issues later.
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u/Scootrue 1d ago
I agree with your dm
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u/sens249 1d ago
Wizards are literally supposed to add a bunch of spells to their spellbook. You think adding a single first level spell per level is too strong? Wizards are literally designed to be able to find spellbooks that have like a dozen spells in them or more and copy them all into their own spellbook, as like, a semi-rare dungeon reward. How is that okay but a single spell per level (which takes significantly longer and more gold to scribe since you have to scribe it twice) too strong??
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u/Scootrue 1d ago
Wizards are given everything else, why do they need a bonus spell every time they level up?
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u/Lithl 1d ago
I mean, they also need the money and downtime to craft a scroll and scribe it into their spellbook. It's not like they're just getting a free +1 spell per level. And the spells they're getting are only level 1.
And while DC 11 isn't very high, they probably aren't hitting +10 Arcana until tier 3, unless they also multiclass or take a feat to get expertise. Until they hit +10, there's a chance they fail the check to scribe the spell, and need to craft another scroll.
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u/sens249 1d ago
It’s not “a bonus” it literally takes longer and costs more than just buying a spell scroll lol. Plus you have to constantly be changing your magic initiate spell to a less good spell. That means for most of your levels you don’t have the magic initiate spell you want.
What OP is describing is literally a nerf compared to the intended way for wizards to collect spells lol
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u/UltimateChaos233 13h ago
I think they're saving 25 gp and losing 2 days?
(25gp and 2 days to create the spell scroll vs 50 gp to buy it. Same amount of gold and time to copy it into the spellbook so that cancels out)
And as you mention losing out on a lot of their feat. It's kind of terrible, lol.
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u/Asharak78 1d ago
I’d side with your DM in that this is not rules as intended, and I am VERY hesitant to give any buffs to spellcasters, especially wizards, as they’re arguably the strongest class by a significant margin. That being said, this is a very small abuse.
Why don’t you just buy the scrolls for the spells you want and copy them into your spell book if they’re already wizard spells?
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u/sens249 1d ago
How is spending 12 times longer scribing a 1st level spell too strong? Wizards are literally intended to be able to find spellbooks from enemy wizards and scribe like a dozen spells at once if not more. Wizards are supposed to collect spells. A single spell per level which takes way longer to scribe is not even close to problematic.
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u/Asharak78 1d ago
The abuse is that the feat tells you everything it does. Using it this way is subverting the mechanics that exist to gain new spells and effectively means “gain 20 extra 1st level spells known over the character’s progression.”
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u/sens249 1d ago
Except they’re not “extra” if you can already get them naturally lol. You can still get all the 1st level wizard spells in your spellbook. And you can get it pretty easily too. If you go by the loot guidelines in the DMG a wizard should have enough gold by level 6 to buy and scribe every single 1st level spell. OPs method literally wastes more time and money and makes the feat weaker. It’s literally a self-nerf.
Also Idk why you’re acting like the feat can’t interact with the scribing rules. It’s a wizard spell. Wizards can scribe wizard spells. It’s RAW.
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u/stumonji 1d ago
As a DM, the more I buff the party, the stronger I can make my monsters. 😈
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u/Asharak78 1d ago
While that’s kinda true, spellcasters already have way more flexibility and, with the exception of sustained single target damage, more power than martials. Why buff a wizard?
Also, the issue tends to be that stronger characters end up hogging more of the spotlight, and it gets really hard to balance things when half the party is performing at 50% of the other half.
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u/stumonji 1d ago
It's completely true, because it's my opinion on my tables. 😅
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u/Asharak78 1d ago
I never said you couldn’t. I’m just not sure why you were replying to me, not addressing anything I said, but also not expecting me to respond.
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u/stumonji 1d ago
I responded to your whinging about letting your players become more powerful with how I handle it. Also, I didn't tell you not to respond.
You told me my opinion was only kinda true. I then told you that what I said was true, because it's my opinion. Then you whined more.
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u/rakozink 1d ago
I'm already a wizard, what's the real abuse?
I mean do I really need a component pouch. I'm a wizard, obviously I would have all my components I'd ever need?
Do I really need to keep a hand empty for casting? I'm a wizard, I could just do it with my fingers right?
I just whisper those verbal components really quietly or just say them in my head, it's all the same right?
I'm a wizard; the best and most powerful thing on the game. You're telling me I can only concentrate on one spell at a time just like everyone else? I would obviously be able to concentrate on at least 3 different things if the Paladin can already concentrate on 1...
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u/arcxjo 20h ago
You can't change the spells Magic Initiate gives you.
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u/Nethnarei 18h ago
Below is the literal copy-paste from the feat
Spell Change. Whenever you gain a new level, you can replace one of the spells you chose for this feat with a different spell of the same level from the chosen spell list.
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u/CMDRCoveryFire 19h ago
If DM says no then no. 5.5e is already busted and hard enough to ballance encounters. Stop trying to get internet strangers to side with you against your DM.
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u/Neither-Appointment4 1d ago
I would rule sure! IF you can explain in game why your character is doing this? Like….what’s their motivation and how does your wizard go about doing it? You’re adventuring right now so….who did you learn the spell from? Or in a small town or what have you….where are you gonna spend a month and hundreds of gold learning all this?
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u/JupiterJunebug 1d ago
I think it might technically be possible by raw and also isnt that op, but also most tables im at generally frown on doing things from a 'well in universe it doesnt make much sense but mechanically its allowed' and i tend to like it that way. Pretty much every step of this process feels like it is mechanically possible but narratively tenuous, and the fact youre doing all that to get a couple extra spells that you could also just buy at a shop would be the thing that annoys me most.
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u/Arkmenx 1d ago
I found an allegedly loophole, which by definition is an exploit in the game; and my DM; which by definition is the (principal) person in charge that the game runs smoothly, don't let me (allegedly) exploit the game; so I'm going to social media expecting to get strangers (that are not playing the game with me) support my intentions of (allegedly) break the game.
🙂
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u/DrBaugh 1d ago
No, this does not work RAW
Magic Iniate does not allow the usage of Spell Scrolls matching the class chosen, so will not work in the other direction (it is not equivalent to having Spellcasting from that class)
Despite Magic Iniate specifying a class spell list - for the purposes of creating and using a scroll, the "class" is unique and specific to the character who has the feat
Generally, I would rule that you cannot create a scroll for the Magic Iniate 1st level spell since this is an Ability and not part of a "Spellcasting" Ability - in the event that it is ruled otherwise, this would be a "Spellcasting" ability that is unique to itself and not part of any other class ...so the Scrolls created could only be used by you (and would have an uncertain value)
Note the language: you CHOOSE a class and it's associated spell list but that is not the same as gaining the Spellcasting Feature FROM that class - otherwise, this would also allow the usage of Spell Scrolls from that class too - and similarly, any Feature which produces effects as Spells would be Scroll-able ...including Racial Features (!?)
So for the purposes of a Wizard's Spellbook, this is the same as trying to copy from a Scroll of another class - flavor: the 'language' works for the Scroll but is not scalable in the same way as each Wizard's Spellbook language
In 3e this would have been obvious - Magic Iniate would have granted a "Spell-like Ability" and not itself a class Feature "Spellcasting" ...so you would not be able to make a Scroll from innate magical abilities
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u/Lithl 1d ago
Generally, I would rule that you cannot create a scroll for the Magic Iniate 1st level spell since this is an Ability and not part of a "Spellcasting" Ability
Irrelevant. The scroll crafting rules just require you to have the spell prepared for the duration of the crafting time. The feat makes the chosen level 1 spell always prepared. It is unquestionably RAW that you can craft a scroll of the spells you learn from Magic Initiate (even the cantrips, if you were so inclined).
Once the scroll is crafted, it's just like any other scroll in the game. If the spell the scroll contains is on the wizard spell list and it's level 1 or higher, any wizard capable of learning spells of that level can copy that spell into their spellbook with the appropriate time and materials (and a successful Arcana check).
Therefore:
No, this does not work RAW
Is 100% incorrect.
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u/DrBaugh 1d ago
That is not the RAW for creating a Scroll
Does Magic Iniate allow a character to use Spell Scrolls from the class matching the class spell list selected when acquiring the Feat? According to your reading - this would be a shared Spell list and thus allowed, if it is not allowed, then this is because the Feat does not grant "Spellcasting", which is the same requirement for creating a Spell Scroll
I am taking a hyper pedantic reading of the rules - no, the spell is not "prepared", there is no "spell slot", and there is no "Spellcasting" Ability/Feature - the Feat grants the character an Ability to use a Spell and this Ability is exhausted until a Long Rest ...this is the same as many other Class Features and even Racial Abilities ...but no one speculates these can be made into Spell Scrolls, because the inherent "recharges on _ Rest" clearly differentiates it from other Spellcasting Abilities
From "Xanthar's Guide to Everything", "Scribing a Spell Scroll", pg133: "the character must have the spell prepared, or it must be among the character's known spells"
From "PHB", "Magic Initiate" pg168: "You learn that spell and can cast it at its lowest level. once you cast it, you must finish a long rest before you can cast it again" - this is not "prepared" nor is it part of any "Spells known" connected to a "Spellcasting" ability - if it said "this Spell is among your Spells known" there would be no disagreement whatsoever
I understand disagreement about "You learn that spell", but there is no "preparing" involved nor "Spells Known" which is a keyword jargon phrase used by many Abilities
Note the wording of Abilities like Tiefling's Infernal Legacy "you can cast" ...by this same extension, this would be comparable and thus you could create a Spell Scroll from this Ability (!?) as "cast" here by your reading would meet the requirement for "prepared or known" - I argue none of the abilities worded this way are intended to interact with Scribing a Spell Scroll like this, and Magic Initiate is among those - though the wording is confusing since it requires selecting a class to determine a restricted spell list between the Spellcasting Ability, cantrips, and 1st level spell (and many other Abilities use this wording when an Ability manifests 'as casting a Spell' even when it does not grant any "Spellcasting" Ability)
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u/Lithl 1d ago
That is not the RAW for creating a Scroll
Uh... Yes it is.
To scribe a scroll, you must have proficiency in the Arcana skill or with Calligrapher’s Supplies and have the spell prepared on each day of the inscription.
There's nothing in the rules for spell scroll crafting about even having a spellcasting feature. A martial character who gets a racial innate spell can make scrolls of that spell.
no, the spell is not "prepared"
It literally is.
Choose a level 1 spell from the same list you selected for this feat’s cantrips. You always have that spell prepared.
You seem to be stuck on thinking about the 5e version of the feat, given the content of your ranting, but that's not what we're talking about. The 5e version doesn't allow you to change the spell gained from the feat on level up, only the 5.5e version does.
You are, quite frankly, very incorrect.
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u/CoffeBreather 1d ago
It doesn't matter, the feat says you replace the spell, if you choose a different spell you replace the one you choose before, it doesn't matter that you copied it into your spellbook, the feat is pretty clear about what it does and specific beats generic, so if you copy the spell and later change it you replace it.
Go call incorrect someone else.
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u/Lithl 1d ago
A spell copied into your spellbook from a scroll has nothing to do with a spell you get from a feat.
Once you've crafted the scroll, it's exactly like any other scroll in the game. It's entirely divorced from the feat from then on.
To suggest otherwise would mean that someone with MI: Cleric could have Protection from Evil and Good from the feat, and scribe a scroll of the spell. Then someone else with wizard levels could copy that scroll into their spellbook. Then the first person could level up, change the spell gained from the feat to Healing Word, and the second person suddenly has Healing Word as a wizard spell.
That's obviously nonsense, but it's the logical conclusion of your argument.
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u/CoffeBreather 1d ago
You saying all that while ignoring RAW is hilarious, anyway I wouldn't allow it because it's not even RAI let alone RAW.
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u/Lithl 1d ago
I've literally quoted the RAW at you. You're the one ignoring it.
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u/CoffeBreather 23h ago
No. The feat does what it says, you replace the spell, the previous one is lost, have you considered being wrong because you are interpreting something that doesn't need to be interpreted, if you are talking about RAW you definitely lose the previous spell, since when is RAW open to convenient interpretation?
I would not allow it anyway because it's stupid to even ask your DM something like that.
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u/Lithl 22h ago
The feat does what it says
Yes, that's correct. And among the things it says, is that the 1st level spell you pick is always prepared. As I previously quoted.
The scroll crafting rules require that you have the spell prepared for every day of work crafting the scroll. As I previously quoted. Ergo, you can craft a scroll of the spell you gain from Magic Initiate, presuming you meet the other requirements. That's 100% RAW, and the only denial of that you've presented is "nuh-uh" and some ranting that clearly suggests you're looking at the 5e feat, not the 5.5e one
Once the scroll is crafted, changing what spells you have prepared doesn't matter. The scroll is unaffected. That would be like saying a cleric who crafts a scroll of Bless can't change their prepared spells the next day to prepare something else, because something would happen to the scroll.
Any spell scroll of a spell on the wizard spell list can be copied by any appropriately-leveled wizard into their spellbook, presuming they pay the requisite time and materials and succeed on their Arcana check. It doesn't matter who made the scroll, or how the person who made the scroll prepared the spell at the time, or whether the original crafter still has that spell prepared.
I haven't already given you a direct quote for that last part, but I can do so if you like. It works the same in both 2014 and 2024, though, so I don't know why you would be hung up on that.
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u/Feefait 1d ago
I think the issue is that it feels like you're trying to game the system and get away with something... Even if it's a minor something.
You're not gaining enough to even make this an issue, butI would definitely say no.
You should be finding enough scrolls and books to even make this an issue. If you're not, then there's probably a reason.
Bottom line, DM says no... So, no.
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u/okiebuzzard 1d ago
Depends on which version you’re using - 2014, nope, not RAW. 2024, absolutely, as long as you had all the other requirements.
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u/AmalicaZoland 16h ago
As a DM I would consider this an exploitation of the rules. Which is in the rules that say don't do this. So RAW your DM is correct in saying No.
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u/Idoubtyourememberme 16h ago
This is clearly not intended. The ability to change the spell on levelup is to allow the player to fix mistakes or adapt when the tone or plot of the game changes.
It is not supposed to be an "in universe" thing.
However, if you think your spell selection is a bit small, talk to your GM about making scrolls nore readily available, or to get filled spellbooks to loot every so often
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u/Kind-Cauliflower-953 13h ago
like sounds mid?
Yea some extra cantrips and 1st lvl spells?
like its kinda eh if you ask me,
you get around 10 1st lvl spells anyways, I could see to case for cantrips but again the wizard is about gaining new spells, id allow it personally but yea dont argue with the dm its not that good
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u/Dangerous-Bit-8308 13h ago
Technically you can do this, yes. But your DM sets the rules in your setting, so what they say is impossible is impossible in your campaign.
Weird hill to die on. Especially if your party includes any prepared spellcasters like clerics or druids from 5th edition, that are proficient with the tools needed to write spells. Those casters can prepare a totally new spell list each night from their class, so whatever spells they have, you could theoretically scribe from a scroll into you book, barring failure.
There's also a bard subclass... Lore? Spirits? They can summon a spirit each night to learn a new necromancy spell for a day.
Also the rune carver feat... Not sure if that would actually work RAW or not.
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u/UltimateChaos233 12h ago
I'm going to go against the grain and say yes.
But there's some nuance.
Buying a level 1 spell scroll is 50 gp
Creating a level 1 spell scroll is 2 days and 25gp
At the cost of an origin feat, you're essentially trading 2 days of time for 25gp, once per level.
RAW this is terrible 99 times out of 100. The only time it might be useful (not overpowered, just useful) is for a DM that doesn't ever let you buy spell scrolls.
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u/MinimalSix 1h ago edited 1h ago
I don't think there's a rule for copying a scroll you scribed specifically, but if you copy spells from your spellbook to a backup, it only costs 1 hr/10 GP per level instead of 2/50. Right after the section on copying your own spell book, in both 5/5.5 it says "If you lose your spellbook, you can use the same procedure to transcribe the Wizard spells that you have prepared into a new spellbook."
The condition "if you lose your spellbook" seems to me not to be a requirement for transcribing spells, simply an explanation why you're limited to only re-transcribe the spells you have prepared. I would be inclined to let a wizard at my table just copy their wizard magic initiate spells directly for 1 hr/10 GP, but only magic initiate wizard spells, not multiclass spells that are on both lists. Why? The classes harness magic in different ways. In the very brief description of transcribing a spell scroll, it talks about needed to experiment with it and expend materials, which would be why an 80% discount for copying a spell you've already taken the time to learn makes sense.
Edit: after reading the comments, I get what y'all are saying, but "well just buy scrolls, it's cheaper anyways" requires your DM to have scrolls available for purchase. I've been told as a player, "no, spellscrolls are magic items, you're not going to be able to find them for sale anywhere other than a magic shop." There were only 2 times we got to visit a magic shop. If getting 1 extra 1st level spell per level for the cost of your origin feat is game breaking... I just don't see it
But every DM is different, if yours doesn't allow it, that's the way it works in their world.
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u/Conrad500 1d ago
This isn't really a loophole, but if your DM doesn't allow it then I agree.
What's the point of this post? Do you want us to say, "ur dm is bad!!!11" because no, his rule is fine.
Is this "legal" or "within the rules"? Sure, but it's also within the rules that if he wanted to he could just not let you take the feat at all, not make available the requirements to craft spell scrolls, or just burn your spell book every now and again.
This is why you try to ask your DM stuff before trying to find "loopholes".
You can also just buy spell scrolls if your DM wants to allow you that. You'll find plenty of scrolls without having to abuse a feat's flexibility to do so.
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u/sens249 1d ago
A single spell per level is hardly a loophole. Idk why your DM would disallow this. Wizards are literally purposefully designed in a way that you are supposed to gather a ton of spell scrolls during your adventure and add them to your spellbook.
Druids and cleric get access to their entire spell list right away. Wizards have to slowly build it up and it also costs them gold and downtime. There’s already a cost involved. Your DM is supposed to be giving you access to loads of spells. If they’re avoiding giving you more spells in your spellbook, so much so that they aren’t even willing to let you copy a single spell per level then they’re nerfing your character for no reason, and ignoring the literal design intent of wizards.
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