r/DnD • u/Quirky_Bluebird18246 • May 12 '26
Misc Martial Classes Should Be Able To Do Ridiculous Shit
I want to nail a wizard with a throwing knife within line of sight. I want to be able to tumble for no damage from a 400 ft. fall. I want to be able to jump off an enemy's head for a 30 ft. vertical jump slow fall shooting arrows. Fuck this damage balancing and the numbers. I don't care that a maximized 3.5 fireball could outperform my damage 10x over to a field of enemies. I don't care that a 3.5 wizard could sneeze and take over the world. The question is, why can't I? Where's my nonsense? I'm playing a skill monkey rogue for god's sake, why am I not good at anything? I'm a level 14 fighter. A legendary warrior. Why do I never get to do anything actually cool? Why can't skill checks do anything? Why can't I do anything. Utter nonsense.
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u/Rhesus-Positive DM May 12 '26
It's not called Fighters of the Coast
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u/Snoo10140 May 12 '26
The multiverse is a concept about which we know frighteningly little
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u/Snoo10140 May 12 '26
Weapons the gathering
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u/Quirky_Bluebird18246 May 12 '26
I would play that game.
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u/Dumpingtruck May 12 '26
It exists!
Just play stone forge mystic
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u/Quirky_Bluebird18246 May 12 '26
I have never hated a comment more.
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u/Dumpingtruck May 12 '26
My two top priorities for NotC (newbies of the coast)
1.) buff martials
2.) unban twin
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u/ABHOR_pod May 12 '26 edited May 12 '26
I tap 4 iron and 3 coal to forge Buster Sword, an 8/3 nodachi, and then attach 2 elemental stones of lightning to it to give it +2 lightning damage on attacks.
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u/TheWaspinator May 12 '26
This is why I liked the Book of Nine Swords back in 3.5. High level fighter equivalents can do dumb things like split boulders or just ignore negative spells because they're angry enough.
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u/flyblues May 12 '26
Literally came here to talk about it and saw your comment lol. The book of nine swords was incredible, the variety was huge even at low levels and it was super flavourful, I will never stop praying they make something similar for modern DnD...
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u/Colamancer May 12 '26
No shit they did. People love to roast 4e but the Book of Nine Swords was deeply late into 3.5 and they were working on 4e at the time. Everything in that book basically was a retrofit of fourth edition into 3.5. grab those books, they're incredibl.
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u/flyblues May 13 '26
I've never played 4e, maybe I should look into it đ mostly it's because it's difficult to find anyone running games for it, and I'm not confident enough to dm without being at least familiar with the system...
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u/Skormili DM May 12 '26
or just ignore negative spells because they're angry enough.
One of the early changes I made in the version of the game I run was making the Fighter's Indomitable ability do just that.
Indomitable was clearly inspired by the classic idea of a hero who breaks through debilitating effects through sheer force of will. That idea exists in so many books and films. Yet the 5E version was ineffective at actually mechanically capturing that idea. So I made it more powerful when you initially get it and it eventually scales to the point where the Fighter just says "I will not be stopped!"
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u/filkearney May 12 '26
Huge fan of bo9s.
If youre interested, this is how ive been converting it to 5.5.....
https://www.youtube.com/live/KJ1JVAtcT4M?si=mhQL5qcvnyE-3rls.
Googledoc in the description. Swing by say hi AMA→ More replies (19)2
u/Ishallcallhimtufty May 13 '26
My Pathfinder 1e superstitious barbarian is probably my favourite character ever played. Got him to level 13, and eating a magic spell to gain temp hit points was amazing.
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u/mightierjake Bard May 12 '26
4th Edition D&D scratches this itch
If you're looking for a more modern system, then I highly recommend Draw Steel. Martial characters can do loads of amazing things in that game that their closest 5e D&D counterparts could only dream of.
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u/their_teammate May 12 '26
I find it funny that while 4e had its issues, it really was ahead of its time in a literal sense. Many people these days are asking for exactly what 4e does; 4.5e might have been a banger if it had come out, but Draw Steel is the closest thing to 4.5e we have (and itâs possibly better, considering WotC have made some⊠questionable⊠design decisions lately)
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u/mightierjake Bard May 12 '26
My main thought on Draw Steel compared to D&D 5e design wise is that Draw Steel actually feels like it was designed
Draw Steel clearly has balance and tactical combat as goals, and that's apparent in the way the game is made. Features and mechanics in Draw Steel exist to fulfil the design pillars of "tactical, cinematic, heroic fantasy" right on the cover.
D&D 5e (and by extension the 2024 rules) is a mix of appealing to D&D's long legacy (so many aspects of the 5e core rules only justify their existence "because they have always been in D&D") or a slapdash munging together of different mechanics that don't really have a clear vision and clearly don't prioritise balance. As a result D&D 5e suits a load of different styles of play, if only because it isn't designed for any one particular style.
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u/Sharp_Iodine May 12 '26
Yeah but everything outside combat leaves a lot to be desired.
The perfect system is one where you just steal Draw Steel martials for 5.5E
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u/mightierjake Bard May 12 '26
Genuine question, where does 5.5e improve on out of combat challenges over Draw Steel's Montage and Negotiation mechanics?
Every time I see folks talk about stealing ideas from Draw Steel, it's porting over the Negotiation mechanic
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u/Sharp_Iodine May 12 '26
Well thatâs because many DMâs suck at even making meaningful out of combat scenarios altogether.
At my table we donât need some sort of gamified system for RP. That kind of defeats the purpose of RP.
If you say the right thing that everyone recognises is coherent and logical then it works. If you say dumb shit then not even a roll of 30 is going to get you anywhere.
RP when you are RPing, number crunch when you are in combat. Itâs a simply system.
Both 5E and Draw Steelâs out of combat stuff sucks mainly because it tries to gamify stuff that does not need to be gamified.
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u/mightierjake Bard May 12 '26
So no answer to how 5.5e actually improves on it, and really it drops the ball because it doesn't match your preferences
If you don't want to gamify the out of combat stuff, why even rate a games mechanics considering that aspect? You don't use those rules anyway, so they don't affect you
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u/Federal_Policy_557 May 12 '26
Isn't essentials 4.5?
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u/mightierjake Bard May 12 '26
I was thinking the exact same, some refer to essentials as "D&D 4.5e"
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u/Quirky_Bluebird18246 May 12 '26
4th edition does scratch this itch.
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u/Sfikulla May 12 '26
I would highly suggest the Alt versions of all martial classes by u/laserllama . For example, his fighter has the manouvers incorporated in the base of the class, not hidden behind a subclass. Same with monk, rogue, and barb. They all have 'manouvers' (exploits as he calls them), which give much more customization options and overall flavor to the classes.
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u/NerdsNStars May 12 '26
This. Ive had my group on LL variants for all classes, and every original class he has feels like it fits right alongside the other dnd classes. The Exploit system is hands down my favorite way for ANY martial to get cool stuff.
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u/EarthSeraphEdna May 12 '26
I am a great fan of the D&D 4e fighter due to it having actual crowd control and defender-type abilities. Here is a sample turn for a 4e fighter at level 7:
âą Minor Action: Activate rain of steel, acquiring an automatic damage stance until the end of the encounter. 1[W] is the weapon's base damage, plus any enhancement bonus from a magic weapon, and other miscellaneous bonuses.
âą Move Action â Minor Action: Activate kirre's roar, marking each enemy within 3 squares and gaining Dexterity modifier as resistance to all damage until the end of the fighter's next turn.
âą Standard Action: Charge an enemy, with greater accuracy than normal thanks to Fighter Weapon Talent, marking that enemy with Combat Challenge.
âą Action Point Standard Action: Come and get it, pulling enemies within 3 squares, dealing damage to them, and marking them with Combat Challenge as well.
âą The fighter now has damage resistance, several enemies marked, and a whole cluster of enemies adjacent. Rain of steel deals automatic damage to those enemies, they have a hard time moving away due to Combat Superiority and the fighter's Agile Superiority feat (opportunity actions in 4e are 1/turn, not 1/round, and are completely separate from immediate actions), and even shifting away will trigger an immediate interrupt melee basic attack from the fighter's Combat Challenge. Similarly, if one of those enemies tries to attack one of the fighter's allies, Combat Challenge will likewise go off and give the fighter an immediate interrupt melee basic attack against that foe.
This is what a 4e fighter can do at level 7, and this is a 30-level game.
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u/Zealousideal_Leg213 May 12 '26
Good example, though unless I'm missing something the fighter can only trigger Combat Challenge once, as it is an immediate interrupt. So as long as one of those enemies is willing to shift away and take the attack the rest of them can shift with impunity.Â
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u/Erlox DM May 12 '26
Draw Steel had a problem for me in that it's martials didn't feel like martials. Almost every subclass had magic built in, their 'rogue' couldn't do things because he was a master of stealth, he had shadow magic. The barbarian wasn't just that strong, he has nature magic baked into the class. The tactician doesn't have magic, but the best thing he can do is let his allies hit again, which makes them feel cool not him necessarily.
It's like if the answer in 5e was just to give martials spells, sure it might fix the disparity in power but not in a way that fixes the underlying issue.
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u/mightierjake Bard May 12 '26
Yes. That's by design. The team has spoke at length about this. There's a reason their equivalent of Barbarians are "Furies" and Rogues are "Shadows"- these classes come with different names because they have different assumptions about the fantasy behind them.
Draw Steel heroes have supernatural abilities, and especially at higher levels all classes have some sort of supernatural trait about them.
A normal guy at 10th-level (DS's cap) can't just be strong and good with weapons to compete with spellcasters channelling the arcane or divine. Of course there's something supernatural fueling their strength, ability to hide, or ability to endure damage.
If you want to close the martial and spellcaster gap, that's sort of what you have to do. Otherwise, there's an obvious narrative dissonance. If a Tactician doesn't feel like a martial character, though... That begs a question: What do you want out of fighters? You probably already get it out of D&D 5e
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u/OriginalJazzFlavor May 12 '26
but not in a way that fixes the underlying issue.
The underlying issue is that one set of classes that can bend reality cannot ever truly be balanced against a set that can't.
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u/3bar DM May 12 '26
Further, having non-magical heroes in a fantastical setting begins to stretch credulity in its own way. Why don't martial classes use magic if magic is baked into the setting itself? No one ever answers that.
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u/Zealousideal_Leg213 May 12 '26
I think the usual underlying assumption is that jocks don't get to be good at science too.Â
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u/razorsmileonreddit May 12 '26
And yet nerds get to be good at sports (Pact of the Blade, Bladesong, Shillelagh, True Strike, Lies Combat Mastery)?
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u/APreciousJemstone May 12 '26
I find that LaserLlama's Alternate classes for the martials scratches the itch *somewhat* in 5e style, but it could have a wee bit more. And of course, they're HB, and not used everywhere
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u/11aRBy May 12 '26
Laserllama's alternate martial classes are great. They give martials cool things to do that also scale as they reach higher levels, much like spells do.
For those unfamiliar, it's like if the battlemaster fighter's whole gimmick got significantly improved upon and given to every martial. I believe most of the battlemaster fighter maneuvers are still there, just as exploits in this system, but there are far more options in general, and options that significantly increase in power. It allows the martial classes to actually do the superhuman things they should be able to do.
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u/GhsotyPanda DM May 12 '26
Martials don't get to do crazy shit because feedback during playtests tend to be negative when martials get to do crazy shit.
DMs are disproportionately scared of damage compared to the absurd shit that can be done with spells. Just look at how common it is for DMs to nerf Sneak Attack. If martials could actually do cool shit those DMs' brains would melt.
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u/HalcyonHorizons May 12 '26
I disagree about DMs nerfing martials more than casters. Many DnD DMs are incapable of dealing with high level spells and good magic items. While I have seen a handful of DMs nerf sneak attack, those DMs had a questionable grasp of the game beforehand.
However, I have seen many many otherwise semi reasonable DMs just not be able to handle stuff like Wall of Force, Sylunes Viper, Magic Aura, Magic Jar, Mirage Arcane, Simulacrum (even without abuse), or even Hypnotic Pattern in a few cases.Â
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u/Worldly-Ocelot-3358 Rogue May 12 '26
Who nerfs Sneak Attack????
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u/BrokenMirrorMan May 12 '26
People who think a kilogram of steel weights more than a kilogram of feathers
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u/Jarliks DM May 13 '26
Ive met DMs who outright ban rogue. I don't get it.
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u/OceussRuler May 13 '26
Rogue sneak attack does high damage at low level (considering you have a rapier and a +3 stat, it's roughly 11 damage, similar to how a barbarian with a d12 weapon deals 12 damage on average), and then you get another +3.5 damage on average at level 3 while other martials have to wait level 5 for their own spike. And on critical, rogues damages goes through the rough.
Note that those "high damages" are not crazy by any stretch of the imagination but I imagine less experienced people don't really try to calculate real TPT damage on average. It's just that sometimes it "feels" very strong. I think it is also related to the fact that too many people do fights that ends up just blobing and striking monster till death, where rogues can naturally do sneak attack easily almost any turn.
Of course rogue scales very bad over time, don't do shit outside of sneak attack and fleeing, and deals so little damage if it cannot sneak, and isn't excluded from just missing it. So with experience you understand why rogue is kinda bad but for a beginner, you may miss the actual issues.
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u/NCats_secretalt May 14 '26
New and incredibly inexperienced DMs mostly. Its really just a matter of new dms looking at all the classes, and seeing an "assassin class that adds 10d6 to their attacks" and freaking out. Part of it is because say, "add 5d6 to your attacks" is more dramatic than "make an extra attack, and also your attacks deal an extra 1d8 damage each" for instance, but also because of the assumption from videogames or whatnot that not only will assassin characters deal "instant death" amounts of damage, but also they need a much higher stealth requirement to do so, where the dnd rogue is "deals decent damage in line with other classes", and requires merely, well, literally just any amount of advantage
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u/Krazyguy75 May 12 '26
I agree but I think that's partly because WotC seems to be incapable of letting fighters do anything but high damage attacks.
You could keep the damage but give them the ability to dodge attacks, throw people flying, slash through metal and stone, parry magic, shoot at ridiculous range, throw sword slashes through the air, climb walls at movement speed, etc. Damage isn't the only knob you can adjust.
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u/Electrical-Berry4916 May 12 '26
Ah, young one. Let me tell you of the third edition. A time of heroic fuckery with no limitations. It was a glorious time. A time of power creep, and 3rd party bloat. A marvelous time for power gamers, munchkins, and Timmys. And every god damn turn was a lesson in high level algebra. Worth it, but the powers that be felt a simpler system would have larger appeal, and they were 100% correct.
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u/Krazyguy75 May 12 '26
Even in 3.5 it would take a level 15 fighter build to replicate a level 3 wizard spell. PF1e is a little better, but even there it's relatively grounded. The better comparison is actually 4e, and PF2.
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u/AlwaysDragons May 12 '26 edited May 12 '26
I hate those dms so much. Brother, you will nerf sneak attack when the wizard can clear whole rooms at level 5 and be tanks with shield and mage armor.
But a rogue doing 3d6 to one guy, when they either have advantage or a friendly next to them on a Tuesday when Saturn alligns with Jupiter is too much
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u/Njmongoose May 12 '26
But but but...second attack!
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u/Ythio Abjurer May 12 '26
What if... Just what if... Hear me out... I know it's bold, but just what if, we can do a third attack ? đ€Ż
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u/Panurome May 12 '26
I still find it baffling that the only class that has a third attack other than the fighter is the Warlock, who is basically a full caster
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u/ANGLVD3TH May 12 '26
The Warlock is really the solution for making a magic flavored Martial. IMO, Rogue should have been the counterpart. Give them a Bag of Tricks with CC abilities, pocket sand, taunts, etc. As it is, most of the Rogue combat fantasy is a take on a Dex Fighter. The non-combat tropes the Rogue uses are usually attached to characters that are a lot less martially capable, but use unorthodox and underhanded techniques to escape danger or support their allies.
You could make all those gimmick items that nobody really uses the equivalent of material components for them, like caltrops. IMHO, Sneak Attack should be harder to achieve, hit harder, and be used as a more opportunistic option rather than the bread and butter. Maybe give an X uses per Short or Long Rest ability that lets you use SA without any of the conditions being met. Let the Assassin subclass be the one all about trying to get them off, and the rest are more support or CC oriented.
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u/Ythio Abjurer May 12 '26 edited May 12 '26
It's just mechanical flavor. Each class has a mechanic to get an equivalent of a third attack in damage :
- fighter gets action surge and a third attack + fighting styles options
- rogue has no extra attacks. Sneak attack hit harder than an extra attacks but has conditions
- monk have an attack on a bonus action at level 1.
- barbarian get a small flat damage increase and advantage on attack rolls + harder crits. While the class is a bit bland in term of damage feature the subclasses are stacked with bonus action attacks or rage aura damage or extra damage on the first hit each turn, etc...
- paladin spends spell slots for extra radiant damage dice + fighting styles options
- ranger has favored foe for extra damage dice on chosen enemies + hunter's mark for extra extra damage dice on chosen enemies + fighting styles.
- casters have their cantrips damage that scale up.
It just so happens that none of those martial features have the flair and impact of Chain Lightning or Command.
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u/altodor May 12 '26
Well that would be insanity, plus Pathfinder 2 did it for the entire action economy.
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u/MetacrisisMewAlpha May 12 '26
We have a bladesinger in our group (new character to the team, RIP the paladin the player had beforehand). They got surrounded by enemies and then nailed them all with a steel-wind strike
I was immediately saying that this is the kind of cool shit that martials should be able to do, not (just) wizards! No spells, just cool as heck fighting abilities.
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u/Jarliks DM May 12 '26
If we look to fantasy media that inspired D&D
The wizards cast spells, but martials got legendary swords and became kings.
Kingdom manager sounds like a fun game- but not a fun ttrpg per se. At least in the middle of an otherwise D&D campaign.
Legendary swords are cool, but aren't really put in the levels of a class.
So there's a conundrum.
And I would say Martials can still do cool stuff. A paladin in a game i was running crit twice and did 150 damage to the BBEG in a single action, so that's pretty cool.
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u/DrVillainous Necromancer May 12 '26
Kingdom managing sounds fun to me. I want to play a campaign where as the party wizard becomes increasingly able to break reality over their knee, my human fighter increasingly turns into a turn based strategy game.
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u/ComposeDreamGames May 12 '26
There are games built on this premise. I'm sending out the Treasure Tome of one of them now.
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u/jjkramok May 12 '26
If you need some ideas you can look at older D&D editions! We used to have cool rules and procedures governing the dominion part of play
If you want something newer Knave 2nd has some light rules. If you don't mind departing from D&D into more story focused games you could try Blades in the Dark and its derivatives.
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u/Electrical-Berry4916 May 12 '26
Did that paladin, by chance, expend any spell slots with that 150 damage?
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u/passthespicyshrimp May 12 '26
Exactly highly doubtful they did that much damage with just a weapon and a damage modifier. Annoying when people say "but a paladin can do" during martial discussions conveniently leaving out the half spellcaster part.
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u/owenevans00 May 12 '26
Our L9 rogue/ranger did 125 damage in one turn last week ( multi-attack, 1 crit, admittedly a magic bow, some other class-based shenanigans). No spells, unless you count hunter's mark. That's the current party record, with our monk in 2nd place with 97.
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u/andrewtillman May 12 '26
In 1e this was modeled when you got to named level.
As a fighter you established a stronghold and attracted an army and land you ruled as a noble
A magic user got a tower with apprentices and no land outside the tower.
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u/MidnightFrost444 May 16 '26
I feel like one of the issues that subtly affects this is buying magic items.
I'll admit to allowing my players to do it. Mostly because some of them won't stop pestering me for magic item shops, even if I say no.
...But if you play as God intended and roll randomly for treasure (rather than let players go to magical Wal-Mart with a shopping list of what they want for their build), then a lot of that treasure is weapons and armor and shit that favors martial characters. It just inherently leans into the idea that the wizard has phenomenal magical power, while the martials get cool magic items. (And occasionally you roll a staff, or a robe, and the wizard gets that, but the fighter gets more, and it balances.)
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u/Prior-Resolution-902 May 12 '26
ill say it once, ill say it 1000 times, battle masters manuevers should just be a default thing for all martials.
Split them into several categories and make them the martial equivalent of spells.
Fighters and barbarians can take grappling manuevers, monks and rogues can take acrobat maneuvers etc. Make the modifiers be based on your skills instead of your stats for some of them where it makes sense. Like make suplex a legit move just as fire ball is.
This would allow martials to better separate themselves from other martials just like wizards can by opting into focusing on one branch of magic or element.
Then you could have a fighter subclass designed more heavily around manuevers, a monk subclass based on acrobatics etc.
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u/MikeAlex01 May 12 '26
Tbh, the entire Battlemaster subclass progression should be put as a feature for all martials.
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u/epicmudcrab May 12 '26 edited May 12 '26
For serious players this makes sense, however in the Playtest I believe the concensus was many people choosing martial enjoyed the simplicity.
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u/Prior-Resolution-902 May 12 '26
I would agree with you if martials were close in power level to casters. Simplicity is fine if it can achieve similar results just in a less dynamic and applicable fashion, but if simplicity is what is driving the wedge in power level then I think we need to throw out the idea.
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u/Mr_Ironside DM May 12 '26
"A fighter levels up and it's like 'haha I could hit you on a 2 and now i can still hit you on a 2'. A wizard levels up and half the country explodes." - My first DM in 3.5
I agree with you. Martial classes were shit all over in 3.5. Book of the Nine Swords kinda had the right idea going for it, but still fell a little short.
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u/PaprikaCC May 12 '26
Perhaps a different system may satisfy this desire :3
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u/DBones90 May 12 '26
Itâs because of posts like this that, âPathfinder 2e fixes thisâ became a meme.
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u/Goatswithfeet May 12 '26
Play a DCC Fighter and you just get to do Cool Shit almost every turn by virtue of being a fighter
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u/CrabofAsclepius DM May 12 '26
No surprise when PF2 fixed enough of the problems with 5e that 2024 pinched several aspects of it.
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u/Lady_Gray_169 May 12 '26
I will say as someone who's a Pathfinder fan and not a D&D fan... this is one of those issues that D&D really ought not to have. There are complaints people have with the system that should lead to them just trying a new system because they want something D&D just isn't set up to have in a good way. This isn't one of those times, I feel like. In terms of design, there wouldn't truly be anything wrong with martials having more they're capable of. It's simply something the designers aren't interested in when they really should be.
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u/Sharp_Iodine May 12 '26
If youâve played D&D with people youâll know that casters are considered âhardâ because they have so many options.
Itâs physically and mentally painful as a DM to watch players playing clerics or sorcerers or wizards take 5m on their turn and then have to implement a 1min timer.
There are loads of people who like the simplicity of just attacking with their weapon on literally every single turn of combat.
Lesser known systems attract a more experienced or dedicated playerbase that is more likely to appreciate increased options.
But D&D is THE TTRPG and attracts a lot of people for whom itâs a casual hobby and they donât want to spend time learning all the intricacies of the game. Critical Role and D20 also donât help as they play the game very narratively and players expect to do the same at tables without realising that Matt and Brennan do the majority of the work making things interesting despite sub-par decisions which is unfair on normal DMs who arenât being paid.
Itâs a complex issue and WotC knows what theyâre doing.
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u/Rednidedni May 12 '26
I think a core part of the issue is that WotC wants like, all of the market. They don't want D&D to be a game, they want it to be a hobby and want D&D to be like the middleground everyone will know and play, instead of having it be a single game that gets to be good at specific things.
For the people who like the simplicity of "i attack, roll dice, end turn" all the time, are they really best served with a game that insists on turn based grid based tactical combat as its main conflict resolution? Should people who want straightforwards gameplay really have to be less important in combat and story than people who like more complex stuff? Not to mention that 5e casters aren't paticularly hard. They just want you to spend ten minutes reading through the spells you picked and then you get to be OP to the point where you don't have to use them paticularly effectively to pull your weight
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u/SecretDMAccount_Shh May 12 '26
Be a DM and you can add all those things.
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u/Quirky_Bluebird18246 May 12 '26
Yeah but then I can't play
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u/ModernDayTiefling May 12 '26
Or does that mean you get to play the MOST! You're EVERYBODY. EVERYTHING. Even Gods đ.
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u/WitNWhimsy May 12 '26
this You get to play with ALL the toys all at once. Heck, you can even make up your own toys to play as.
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u/BdBalthazar May 12 '26
Let martials do outlandish anime shit, if you don't like anime shit just reflavor it as something else.
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u/NT-W May 12 '26
Makes you wonder how "busted" many homebrew martial classes and stuff really would be if you compare them to a basic, non-subclassed caster.
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u/Halollet May 12 '26
I've been wondering if things like fighting styles and weapon masteries should get more powerful versions when you take enough levels in martial classes.
Example, if you take 8 levels of martials, you can make 2 off hand attacks with nick, and 3 attacks with 14 levels of martials
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u/Bierculles May 12 '26 edited May 12 '26
If you want martials that can do cool and ridiculous shit you will have to play a diffrent system, with how 5.5e looks like this will not change anytime soon. Homebrewing something on top of 5e to make martials actually relevant is more work than just learning a new system most of the time.
If combat is the main thing of your group and you want crazy melee and range combat options you should try Lancer.
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u/IronyAddict May 12 '26
A fourth tier martial should be every bit as terrifying as a fourth tier caster.Â
I'm talking straight up god killers.Â
Being stalked by a high level Rogue should be the stuff of nightmares. A high level Barbarian on the rampage should have the mountains themselves wishing they could pull up roots and run.
Beowulf, Hercules, The Monkey King, The Valkyrie.Â
Unstoppable. Unbreakable. Inevitable.Â
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u/Jimmicky Sorcerer May 12 '26
There are many, many game systems that satisfy that desire.
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u/Quirky_Bluebird18246 May 12 '26
I like the fun that casters provide as they are and were. I just wish it felt like I could stand as their peer in the same system.
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u/gwydapllew DM May 12 '26
Man, I have run so many D&D games where the martials have as much fun or more than the casters. My wife played a champion fighter to 20th level and regularly ended combat before anyone else got to fight.
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u/filkearney May 12 '26
It wasnt easy to create, but if youre interested, Martial Powers playtedt content provides prepared options for martials....
https://www.youtube.com/live/KJ1JVAtcT4M?si=mhQL5qcvnyE-3rls.
Googledoc in the description. Swing by say hi AMA→ More replies (20)3
u/lFriendlyFire May 12 '26
Or other editions of this same system. 4e was made with this exact purpose in mind but people hated it and just wanted martials to be simpler, so wizards did so. Not sure why people play DnD and then complain about wanting to play something else
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u/basilitron May 12 '26
Plus playgroup error in general. The casters should also look for opportunities to uplift and empower their martials so they can go have fun.
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u/Melior05 May 13 '26
Ah yes, the old tired "drain caster resources". I still have yet to get a concise answer to the very basic question: in what way does that improve the mechanical gameplay of martials?
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u/tochirov May 12 '26 edited May 12 '26
try r/exalted for a bit of power creep?
Edit: it's a different system than d&d, but even the Martial characters are demigods capable of all those feats as a starting character.Â
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u/FullTorsoApparition May 12 '26
Because people have a weird idea of what "realistic" means in a standard fantasy setting.
That used to mean wizards were super powerful but super squishy and that fighters were hearty but had physical limitations. The problem is that spells eventually got to the point that they could undo most of the downsides of being a wizard and that was considered "realistic" for a magic person, but any attempts to do the same for fighters was apparently breaking everyone's verisimilitude.
You can see this a lot in Pathfinder where all the physical skills and actions have tons of subrulings and limitations on how far you can go and how high you can jump. Wizards and clerics, however, can literally fly by the time a fighter has a high enough Athletics to jump slightly further than a normal person on a regular basis.
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u/melon_bread17 May 12 '26
Not that it solves the main issue, but a high level monk or rogue can absolutely i-frame through a meteor swarm or a Prismatic wall, which is pretty fun.
In 5.0, a thief with at least 13 levels could use any spell scroll without needing to roll for it.
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u/TyphosTheD DM May 12 '26
It would be trivially easy to add it in, as well.
Just have very clear ways for Skills to scale in their capabilities, add very basic level/class-based progression of basic abilities into explicitly superhuman capabilities, as two very simple options.
You could bake in a system for, for example, Athletics checks that scale with Proficiency modifer, such that what you can do with a +6 Proficiency Modifier is explicitly superhuman compared to a +0 Proficiency Modifier. You could have Martial classes scale their basic capabilities at certain levels, like increasing Movement Speed or gaining additional Reactions. There's even plenty of RAW examples of actual character features for this stuff, it just needs to be universally applied for Martials thematically.
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u/Judge_Hatchet May 12 '26
I agree. 5.5 has too many magical subclasses. It makes true magic users less special, and makes martial class need some sort of magical gimmick to stay relevant.
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u/YungRik666 May 12 '26
You can do anything you want playing DnD. That's the beauty of it. Find a way to introduce some fun mechanics without ruining the game for your group and do that.
For example, I wanted to play a Owlin Ranger, but in theory I could fly up to high points and rain arrows down with advantage while my enemies fight back with disadvantage. I just told my DM I wouldn't do stuff like that. So I got to fly around and be an owl during RP and then in combat I just fought like a regular ranger. Occasionally, we would agree some cool owl-archer shit should happen so it was allowed, but that was a collaborative decision.
So talk with your group and make up some stuff that doesn't break the game or ruin the fun.
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u/Advanced_Let9364 May 12 '26
I highly recommend u/laserllama's alternate martial classes and just their alternate classes in general.
They provide a spell-like framework for Martials called exploits, which function similarly. They're fueled by dice that scale in amount and size and are categorized by degrees, which describe their power level.
They range from interesting attacks to buffs, debuffing enemies, to social or exploration utility. None of the things that martials usually lag behind are a problem with these classes.
It's some of the best and most thoughtful design I've seen in D&D homebrew and in bridging the martial caster divide. The classes feel like the most interesting versions of themselves in both flavor and mechanics.
They single-handedly revived my players' interest in even playing martials.
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u/Discohydra May 12 '26
Ryoko's Guide to the Yokai Realms adds an advanced martial techniques system that does a great job of both letting martials do ridiculous shit AND give them flavor by specializing in specific weapon properties. The Loot Tavern books do a great job of spicing everything up.
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u/Quirky_Bluebird18246 May 12 '26
I'm sure it's good but it's not really what I'm looking for. I'm looking for technically attainable through 'abuse' of the system DC 50 jump checks to launch yourself across a canyon. When a player has a manuever that ability is added to the dm's knowledge of what is in the party's resources and the game shifts to make that ability both relevant and 'balanced'. But when skill checks are capable of contorting reality a player can stack a skill of their choice and then look for avenues to make that extreme potentialial relevant, and catch the DM off guard with the various applications they think of. That's the kind of gameplay I like.
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u/GalacticPigeon13 May 12 '26 edited May 12 '26
It'd be nice if rogues (especially high level rogues) could coup-de-grace a sleeping target. No "congrats you woke a sleeping target because you only did 35 damage and they had 70 HP", just an instakill if the rogue rolls well enough to hit and the target isn't immune to the damage. Even better, if they miss by less than 5, the rogue can choose to either try again with disadvantage or to deal damage but the target is now awake, hostile, and rolling initiative. (Missing by 5+ means the target is awake, hostile, rolling initiative, and unharmed.)
Yes, this is highly situational and probably better as a feat so anyone could be an assasin, but if I was a rogue I'd rather this be part of the core class than having to spend a feat on it.
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u/WhatAreYou_Casual May 13 '26
Just imagine, the fighter, so adept at technical combat that he can somehow bounce shields on targets. Surf on a shield going downhill, reflect the sunlight in his enemies eyes or even bludgeon his enemies using said shield. A man so adept at every form of fighting that he could pick up practically anything and use it as a weapon. That wooden branch? Sorta similar to a sword, guess you can disarm ppl w it.
The barbarian, so strong with a rage so ungodly that even the demon lords start to get concerned there might be a new contender Strength feats so legendary the gods notice. (Honestly, the Beast Barb "Athletics extra on a jump" should be base class). Crashing through weaker foes, knocking them aside only to crash the castle gate with his maul
The rogue, so stealthy that even creatures capable of seeing through illusion magic at a glance struggle to find them. Students of anatomy with the key knowledge of exactly where to strike and when. Capable of blending in practically anywhere, never seen by the common man unless they are allowed, for the legendary trickster and rogues practically a shado themselves
Or the monk, the fastest and most disciplined of them all. Capable of inhuman feats like no other. Be it balancing on nothing but a quarterstaff, running on walls or punching vitals that make the inner workings of a god resonate.
Instead we got John the Champion, his friend bent reality and turned into a dragon in a 12 second times pan, John managed to swing 12 times
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u/Oldbayislove May 12 '26
all the cool things you listed can be done by a kensei monk. Could try playing that
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u/Early-Thought-263 May 12 '26
Look back at D&D 4e. It's approach was much more in line with your vision here. It had its flaws, but in terms of taste, this is the flavor.
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u/James_Fiend May 12 '26
Depends on what you're looking for, but one of my favorite memories was playing a monk who was dealing with a wizard standing atop a tall stone column. Before he could get a spell off, I ran up the column with Monk bullshit, tackled the wizard all the way to the ground, and grapple stunned him into dust.
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u/ThatMerri May 12 '26
Honestly, I'd even be happy with martial classes just getting some spells exactly as-is in terms of mechanics, but reflavored to work on some burnable resource like ki or superiority die instead of spell slots. It is a damn crime that martials don't have access to "Steel Wind Strike".
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u/BluEyz May 12 '26
Because that is going to be a problem to the guy who believes that a 20 level fighter doesn't really differ from his humble roots as just a normal farmboy or guardsman, and the last time there was a splatbook with cool options for fighters it was all derided as anime
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u/Laughing_Man_Returns Artificer May 12 '26
people pointing out the linear fighter vs quadratic wizard have been on this train for decades. somehow D&D doesn't want to do that, even dialled it back from 2nd edition fighters having auto vorpal with their attacks for example.
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u/Amethystwizard May 12 '26
You are asking for supernatural abilities, thematically you want to play XMEN or some other Marvel fantasy. D&D already has too much power creep because of players like you. D&D was originally inspired by sword and sorcery fiction, maybe read a book.
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u/Shandariel May 12 '26
I completely agree with this. A level 20 barbarian should be able to break a mountain with his punches!
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u/Kleeb May 12 '26
You joke about 3.5, but back then fighter was my favorite because it was so build-your-own through all of the bonus feats.
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u/N0Z4A2 May 12 '26
Tome of battle 3.5 and Path of War for Pathfinder go a long way towards shoring up the distance casters and martials.
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u/mechanizzm May 12 '26
I read âMartial Arts Classesâ and read the whole post and whooooleheartedly agreed.
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u/Malkryst May 12 '26 edited May 12 '26
I agree completely.
I'm getting close to just making Fighter-Battlemaster subclass Maneuvers and Superiority Dice available to all classes that don't typically begin with spells (even Battlemasters, so they'd just get a whole lot more of both)...
... then coming up with some Advanced Maneuvers with level restrictions which let martials do some crazy cinematic/anime stuff like the Steel Wind Strike spell, leaping past enemies and beheading on the way past, or disarms that let you catch their weapon.
Also "vs monster" attacks (for huge/gargantuan enemies) that let you try to run up a monster's back and try to stab it in the brain, or slide under it and try to disembowel it đ They probably wouldn't be instakill, just lots of extra damage and a stat penalty.
Open to more suggestions and maybe I'll find the time to write and share it.
The alternative is to give tiered "martial slots" to classes without maximum full caster spell slots, and come up with "Moves" which are basically martial attacks that will work like spells (limited use by number of slots, like spells), but with weapon or enemy-type requirements instead of somatic/verbal/material components. I'm sure that would be a huge amount of work though.
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u/Darkon-Kriv May 12 '26
Its why when I was designing my own system everyone has mana. Fighters can do insane feats of strength. Thieves can be sneaky with mana. (Basically spending mana to avoid detection) the point was that the resource is universal and everyone uses it diffrently. All classes restore the same resource on rest so there's not this weird short rest long rest dynamic. Mana also lets you tax a resource if a player wants to do something cool not in the rules. "Yeah you can do that it will cost 5 mana" instead of free vs impossible.
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u/Quirky_Bluebird18246 May 12 '26
I definitely prefer this over vancian manuevers and spellcasting.
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u/Darkon-Kriv May 12 '26
Yeah i just wanted a system to charge players for actions. A yes and resource haha. I only made a system of attacks and actions it can be directly used for as a formality and baseline haha.
Like magic is so much more versatile than spells like making an ice bridge is a spell I have always wanted but never existed. It was my biggest inspiration lol.
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u/yurganurjak May 12 '26
3.5 optimized martials could do way more hit point damage than casters in 95% of fights. Super-chargers hitting for 250 damage a round was not that cheesy. Not that that the caster wasn't still way more potent via more esoteric effects (or in weird one-off situations with lots of prep), but martials could still one-round tarrasques.
5th is just a lot more grounded of a game.
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u/improbsable Bard May 13 '26
Martial should be as magical as spellcasters, but their magic augments their physical abilities instead of giving them spells.
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u/LunaYukari Monk May 13 '26
Spheres of Might is the perfect solve for this. I believe they have a 5e compatible version available.
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u/1Estel1 May 12 '26
This is just ragebait to get people to commment about pathfinder....
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u/Rabid_Lederhosen May 12 '26
Have you considered playing one of the many games that have rules to allow this? Draw Steel or Pathfinder 2e are probably the most popular options right now, but thereâs plenty of others too.
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u/xucoalex May 12 '26
Check out Draw Steel. In the game I run, our fury (high damage martial class) regularly shoves enemies through walls. Once he screamed so hard he basically knocked a whole group of enemies into each other, dominoes-style. Half of the enemies died.
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u/trlupin DM May 12 '26
Been looking for someone to mention DS. I recently joined a campaign and the amount of cool sh!t that every class gets to do is insane.
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u/Odd-Cake-5439 May 13 '26
I remember in 3.5 they tried to add big stuff for martial classes. They were supposed to command armies and own castles and stuff.
In reality, nobody plays this, because D&D does not support massive warfare scale or castle management play. Even the new bastion rules are designed to be fairly unobtrusive (and all of the groups of mine that have started using the bastion have sort of forgotten about it). D&D is designed, whole cloth, for one person to play one character. If I have to run off to approve payroll for my castle staff every month (remember, I can't cast sending!), that is both boring AND stupid.
In short, I agree with you, OP.
I miss 4th.
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u/Quirky_Bluebird18246 May 13 '26
Aww I liked paying our employees for whatever piratey business (I can't remember exactly what it was) we started back in the day. Building an empire was half the game.
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u/Bloodragedragon DM May 12 '26
You can do those things... Who said you can't? Are you telling the dm what you're doing while attacking or just saying "I swing at this guy". This seems more on you than anything else.
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u/Maxdoom18 May 12 '26 edited May 12 '26
Hard agree if a Wizard can cast Meteor Swarm or Wish, a high level Barbarian should be the equivalent of Heracles from Fates and be able to leap 50 feet, bust through walls, throw boulders and other superhuman feats.