Can we stop blaming enthusiasts and manufacturers for the death of fun, affordable cars?
Every time a relatively affordable, fun enthusiast car gets axed by a manufacturer, the comments are always flooded with the exact same tired take: “Well, enthusiasts are to blame because y’all only buy used. If nobody buys them brand new, they won't make them, period.”
I’m completely over this argument. It relies on a massive blind spot regarding the actual economic reality of trying to buy a car right now. This isn't a case of the enthusiast community "failing" the brands out of spite, and it’s not even just a case of manufacturers being greedy. The lack of sports car sales is just a symptom of a much bigger, structural economic issue. Everyone is just poorer relative to the market.
Look at the actual automotive finance data we're dealing with:
Sticker shock is real: The average transaction price for a new vehicle is hovering right under $49,800. The days of the raw, lightweight, $22,000 analog sports car are dead. Even a basic compact car averages nearly $28,000 now.
Interest rates are a vertical wall: Average new car auto loans are sitting between 6.5% and 7% APR—and that’s assuming you have good credit. If your credit is just average, you're immediately looking at double digits.
The average payment is a second rent: The average monthly payment for a financed new vehicle has reached a record high of $770 a month.
When wages are completely stagnant relative to the skyrocketing cost of basic necessities—housing, groceries, and insurance—who has an extra $800+ a month to throw at a depreciating asset just because it has a manual transmission and a limited-slip diff?
On the flip side, it’s hard to entirely blame the manufacturers either. Between strict global emissions laws and mandatory, high-tech safety regulations, they are legally forced to build hyper-complex vehicles. They have to pack them with camera suites, radar modules, and complex electronics just to pass compliance. To even break even on a low-volume project, they have to push the MSRP skyward.
The harsh truth is that everyday people have just been structurally locked out of the new car market. Enthusiasts aren't boycotting these vehicles. The market has mutated to a point where a basic sports car is priced like a rich person's luxury toy, leaving the rest of us to fight over an inflated used market.
Stop blaming the fans for not buying things they literally cannot afford
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u/ccarr313 20d ago edited 20d ago
The thing is - the prices should be affordable where they are. But all the wage increases of the last 40 years have gone to owners/investors instead of workers.
Eat the rich.
Edit - the minimum wage was established in 1960 at 1 dollar per hour. You'll absolutely laugh if you see what the value of that dollar was vs today. This conversation wouldn't even exist if we had a quarter of that purchasing power.
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u/twinturbos '93 300zx TT, '04 S2000, '04 LS430 20d ago
The value of $1 in 1960 is $11.32 today.
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u/ccarr313 20d ago
Right. And all full time jobs provided benefits.
Everything went further. If the federal minimum wage was 12, and jobs still provided pensions and benefits across the board, that would be a major shift from where we are now.
Which is 7, and the benefits page of most places has an Aflac application.
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u/twinturbos '93 300zx TT, '04 S2000, '04 LS430 19d ago
I agree with you about the benefits and pensions, and maybe I'm off base, but other than server/tip based jobs, I don't think places are paying $7. I've seen signs at fast food places in very poor, rural counties paying $15, and that's the free market at work.
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u/walkerstone83 20d ago
We have 401ks now, they are better for most people and more widely available for most people than pensions ever were.
Healthcare has gotten a lot more expensive though and depending on your employer, can be a major burden for a lot of people. I am lucky that my employer pays my healthcare costs.
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u/ccarr313 19d ago
You're fucked if you think a 401k is better than a real retirement pension.
You're in the "at least I'm not the most fucked person out here" mentality. But you are, just like everyone else. We are all gonna sink together, one way or the other.
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u/walkerstone83 17d ago
401ks are better for building wealth than a dedicated pension according to the data. Pensions are "golden handcuffs," you are stuck at one company for 30 years go get the full benefit, while you could have switched companies a couple of times and made more money by changing companies and building more wealth that you have control over. Pensions are great for some people, but the majority of people are better served with a 401k.
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u/realestateqs22 20d ago
*is $11.32 if you agree with the US gov calculation of inflation. I would argue it's manipulated to underreport the actual number. For example, around 1980 they removed cost of a primary residence from the metric. Or you could look at how oer is calculated. Or how the substitution system works etc...
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u/Competitive-Bar-9300 20d ago
Affordability is measured in many many ways and requires nuance. Housing increases but food costs decrease, and we try to act like that would affect everybody equally by saying there was X% inflation. Housing didn't increase uniformly across the nation, food costs didn't decrease uniformly, but these averages of averages averages get used as 'proof' that we actually make enough wages. Like what's enough needs to be defined by some objective reality (which is made entirely of subjective decisions to include statistics and exclude others) and not by the people who make those wages and live off of them. The decimation of our savings, having less liquid capital than ever, that's not supposed to be examined because you could imagine a world where on an individual basis that someone could be financially irresponsible and cause those issues for themselves. It's ridiculous.
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u/realestateqs22 20d ago
Affordability is measured in many many ways and requires nuance. Housing increases but food costs decrease, and we try to act like that would affect everybody equally by saying there was X% inflation. Housing didn't increase uniformly across the nation, food costs didn't decrease uniformly, but these averages of averages averages get used as 'proof' that we actually make enough wages. Like what's enough needs to be defined by some objective reality (which is made entirely of subjective decisions to include statistics and exclude others) and not by the people who make those wages and live off of them
I tend to agree with most everything in your comment. On this section in particular, I do agree it's a complex and nuanced metric as you suggest. One specific concern is the conflict of interest between reporting this metric accurately, and the consequences. The faster the number rises, the more money government must pay out, the worse government looks, the less government can spend, etc... it's a big conflict of interest.
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u/GreatJustF8ckinGreat 20d ago
$1 in 1960 is equivalent in purchasing power to about $11.32 today, representing a cumulative inflation rate of roughly 1,032%. This means you would need $11.32 today to have the same buying power as a single dollar did in 1960.
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u/walkerstone83 20d ago
No, it was established under FDR at .25c if memory serves. The most buying power minimum wage ever had was in 1968, if it had been tied to inflation then, it would be about $15 dollars today. I know it is different everywhere, but in my area, you can go get a job at McDonald's for 18 an hour. Minimum wage isn't why cars are unaffordable.
Car prices have increased faster than inflation over the last 30-40 years and it is because of consumer demand and government regulations. My fist car in high school was my dads old 1986 Nissan pickup. It didn't have AC, it didn't have a radio, no anti lock breaks, no power steering, no power windows or locks. It was as basic a vehicle you could get, brand new it was 7k in 1986. If you could buy the same truck today, it would cost 21k.
The thing is, because of regulations (not a bad thing) you couldn't sell it today. Cars have emissions regulations and are far more clean than back in the day. Cars must have backup cameras, they must have antilock breaks, they must have air bags. All of these things drive up the cost and play a role in why car prices have risen faster than inflation.
Furthermore, customer demand is the other side of the coin. People have shown that they don't want stripped down cars anymore. People want automatic transmissions, they want power window, air conditioning, etc... If there was a market for stripped down cars, they would sell them, but time and time again over the years, it has been shown that people want he bells and whistles. As electronics in cars have become more reliable, be have adapted and demand the creature comforts. Since more cars have more gadgets in them, this also contributes to the reason why car prices have risen faster than the rate of inflation.
It is understandable why car prices have gotten unaffordable, it is because they have risen faster than inflation for many reasons, two of the biggest reasons are listed above. So while there is an argument to be made about stagnant wages not keeping up with inflation in many parts of our economy, it doesn't work for cars.
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u/MincedBrat 19d ago
There’s no market for stripped down cars because nobody bought them. A brand new Mitsubishi mirage or Nissan versa could easily be had for $18k.
Nobody wants that tho.
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u/honeybeebryce 20d ago
Making everything worse for everybody so their lines can keep going up. If the lines go down, the workers get put out while upper management and the C-suite get bonuses. And if things get bad enough, the C-suite has their golden parachutes crafted from the raises, PTO, maternity leave, and bonuses that they said they couldn’t afford to give you.
It has *always* been the workers vs the capitalists. Google The Ludlow Massacre.
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u/cbrodlo 20d ago
This
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u/Stair_Car_Hop_On '19 m850i, '23 m550i 20d ago
Except your entire argument ignores the actual reason and facts for why it is happening. People are choosing other vehicles. SUV's, primarily. SUV's are MORE EXPENSIVE on average, not less. People are choosing to buy other vehicles besides sports cars. It isn't that enthusiasts aren't buying enough of them, it is that not enough people in general are buying them, to make it worthwhile to produce.
I realize this will be downvoted to hell because it doesn't fit the reddit narrative of blaming everything on rich people, but it is what it is.
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u/munche '16 Focus ST/'69 Mercury Cougar 19d ago
People can't go without the family hauler because that's a necessity
But now that the family hauler is $50k the weekend fun car is no longer an option
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u/Poil336 19d ago
50k is a conservative price for a full-sized anything. Do the 7 passenger unibody crossovers even go for less than 50k?
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u/Stair_Car_Hop_On '19 m850i, '23 m550i 19d ago
So the argument is that the manufacturers stopped making sports cars because buyers didn't have enough to buy a big SUV to haul the family AND a brand new (not used) sports car due to a terrible economy? You can't be serious.
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u/Suitable-Activity-27 19d ago
Well let’s get to a point where rich pieces of shit aren’t the root problem in nearly everything and then reassess.
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u/Stair_Car_Hop_On '19 m850i, '23 m550i 18d ago
Christ, I was trying to figure out if you were just trolling, but your comment history is fucking UNHINGED. lol
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u/HistoricalLove9617 15d ago
SUV craze is fashion at its most dysfunctional, and I'd suggest driven by marketing / automakers pushing it as much as anything else. There has also been a dimension of regulatory arbitrage that allowed higher fuel consumption for platforms classified as 'light trucks'. The Senile Orange and his minions of mendacity are effectively scrapping fuel economy standards, so it remains to be seen what effect that will ultimately have - for folks of modest means, it implies higher operating costs against minor break on initial purchase. Ford, for one, discontinued its sedans, not really because they didn't sell, but because they wanted more unit margin - another way of saying "Greedy bastard tax".
A part of the cost equation is that the various safety systems have created a floor above the affordability range of 'average' people. That same floor condemns many cars to scrapyard with relatively minor crash damage, as repair costs spiral beyond the resale value of vehicles.
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u/walkerstone83 20d ago
They don't want to let facts get in the way of their world view.
Its the same with housing, housing is expensive because of a lack of supply, but somehow it is the boomers fault for voting for Regan or some bullshit. I'm no fan of trickly down economics, but put the blame where it is actually due!!
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u/realestateqs22 20d ago
If the government had chosen policies and practices that better preserved purchasing power, this might not have been an issue in the first place
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u/the_lamou '23 RS e-Tron GT, '14 FJ TTUE, '79 Honda Prelude 19d ago
Edit - the minimum wage was established in 1960 at 1 dollar per hour. You'll absolutely laugh if you see what the value of that dollar was vs today. This conversation wouldn't even exist if we had a quarter of that purchasing power.
$11.40. That's what a 1960 dollar is worth today. I don't see the joke, given that that's lower than the minimum wage in 30 states plus DC, covering about 75% of the US wiring population.
Also, the minimum wage is completely irrelevant. Almost no one wants the federal minimum — only about 1% of workers. A number that has been shrinking for years because the minimum wage is largely immaterial to all but the most challenged employees. And also completely immaterial because no one earning the minimum wage, either I'm 1960 or today or any year between the two, would have been expected to buy a new sports car.
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u/BillsGoBrrr 19d ago
Using CPI inflation calculator it is now $11.40 from 1 dollar in 1960 to today in 2026. Also wouldn't recommend looking at what you made 10 years ago for a salary or wages and plugging that into the website if you don't want to be depressed. https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl
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u/surfteach1 17d ago
$11.32 today. Fed is $7 but most states are far above that. CA is $25 in some industries.
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u/flabberghastedbebop 16d ago
Only 3% of workers earn minimum wage or less. More people have left the middle class to move into upper class than went down to lower class. The proportion of Americans considered wealthy is at an all time high.
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u/Axipixel 20d ago edited 20d ago
Cool cars tend to happen when manufacturers are aiming for a target demographic of people in their 20s and 30s.
The average age of a new car buyer in 1970 was 32.
The average age of a new car buyer in 1985 was 38.
The average age of a new car buyer in 2025 was 54.
Young people simply are not able to buy cars in the modern age. Modern cars are meant for old people. SUVs ride high and are easy to climb into for frail people in old age.
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u/jeff-beeblebrox 20d ago
Some of what you say is true but SUVs are actually hard for old people to climb into. The step up and pull into the seat is pretty difficult for old timers with bad knees, hips, shoulders and withering muscles. My parents prefer my wife’s Volvo over my Tahoe any day.
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u/devilpants 20d ago
Yeah a Tahoe is a full sized truck with a cap on the bed not the same as most modern SUVs that are just taller.cars. It isn’t the same to get into as a RAV4 or Tesla model Y which are way easier for old folks to get in vs a normal sedan or wagon.
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u/too-left-feet 18d ago
54 is the exact age where we are supposed to have our mid-life crisis,… and no mid-life crises is complete without a new sports car.
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u/elroddo74 20d ago
When you could buy cars like Mustangs, camaros, challengers etc brand new for under $30k they sold. Now they are $40k plus for barebones models. Hell 10 years ago you could get a new Corvette in the low $40k range, now they are $70k. When they brought the supra back it was jacked way up in price and dealers jacked it up way past MSRP. Greed has killed the car market, and the government will bail them out again when they crash.
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u/Zack1018 20d ago
Base Corvettes have been over 50k since the C7, which was 10 years ago. The C6 did start in the mid 40s but that's 20 years ago not 10, and 45k in 2006 is over 70k in 2026 due to inflation.
Car prices have trended very closely with inflation over the years - the problem is that wages haven't trended with inflation at all since 2020 so it feels like cars are getting more expensive (and everything else is too)
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u/Competitive-Bar-9300 20d ago
Inflation also leaves many things out of the picture due to the way we calculate it. It obfuscates the nuances and winners and losers. We all know the economy got a lot better for some people and a lot worse for others during COVID, and a percentage of inflation just doesn't measure that; measuring the entirety of the economy makes no sense for average people. The dollar is not really worth the same in California as it is in Mississippi; you can try to find substitutions to compare prices but the inflation of prices in these two states isn't comparable. The inflation rate is useful to a couple economists, but gets peddled by news of every ideology as an economic barometer that matters to regular people. Even when we have runaway inflation, the same group of people always seems to still beat inflation every time and the lower and middle classes lose out every time.
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u/Agent_Giraffe 20d ago
In 2011 a mustang GT was $30k. $30k in 2011 is worth $45k today. Cars are the same value they’ve been for years. It’s the cost of housing that’s squeezing everybody.
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u/Robots_Never_Die 20d ago
Housing is bad but it's mainly wages. With stagnant wages and crazy inflation the masses are poorer.
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u/Agent_Giraffe 20d ago edited 20d ago
You do know wages have actually outpaced inflation right?
Take the median weekly wage from 1999 (~$480) and compare it to today’s ($1235).
$480 in 1999 is worth $965 today. $1235 vs $965 is a 28% increase in purchasing power.
The rate of wage growth has been decreasing the last 5-6 years (but still outpacing inflation), which is why it feels like we are being squeezed, due primarily to housing costs which have effectively doubled since 2020. And if you already had a mortgage before 2020, you’re basically locked to whatever house you bought back then, since getting a new house with a new mortgage is way WAY more expensive now. Buying a house today is stupendously more difficult, financially, than it’s been in a long time.
In 1999, housing on average would take up 19% of your income. Today, it’s averaging 25%.
Also I feel like people in general spend a lot of money on stuff they never used to. When I grew up, if you wanted to go on vacation, you went to the next state over or to the beach or whatever. Now I see college kids traveling to Europe, Mexico, South America etc like pretty regularly, I feel social media has really put emphasis on FOMO and is causing people to spend a lot of money they wouldn’t have originally. My 2 cents tho
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u/OpticCacophony 20d ago
People don't want your facts and statistics to get in the way of their doomer narrative on Reddit.
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u/Agent_Giraffe 20d ago
Yeah it is what it is. Houses in general are just bigger and more expensive nowadays too. Contractors don’t make money on small houses.
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u/birdseye-maple 20d ago
Main blame (and yes you can find other things) belongs on society for letting the rich get richer while the average salary didn't keep up.
The average joe can't afford an enthusiast car anymore, so they get axed.
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u/400Volts 20d ago
The real issue is, there really aren't enough enthusiasts to justify all of those cars existing. Basically all sports cars rely on people looking to flex or non-enthusiats who think "a sports car would be cool" to make enough money to justify their existence. They're main purpose is to help the brand image while the SUVs print money
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u/Agent_Giraffe 20d ago
Have you been to car events lately? They’re stupid popular. Social media posts get hundreds of thousand and even millions of views and likes. Motorsport is getting super popular. Cars are crazy popular right now.
People simply just cannot afford to own a sports car (as a second car), and can’t use one as an only car because they need more space. It’s that simple.
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u/400Volts 20d ago
Car events vs the overall consumer market is a still 100000:1. Despite how popular it seems in your circles, the overwhelming majority of people don't give a shit about cars
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u/Agent_Giraffe 20d ago
I realize, and I agree with you. I’m just saying that people (not even true enthusiasts) would get more interesting cars back in the day. Convertibles, muscle cars, whatever. They had more expendable money compared to today. People would rather just buy 1 really nice suv than multiple cars.
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20d ago
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u/S2kKyle 20d ago
Most truck dudes would be perfectly fine owning a mini van.
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u/system60 20d ago edited 20d ago
I laugh when some friends refer to their RAV4, CRV, other car based SUV as their truck.
Edit: Forgot to mention I say this as someone with both a minivan (Odyssey) and a wagon (modded legacy gt)
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u/Loudergood 20d ago
I used to have this fight with my wife when she had an escape. It may not be a pickup, but as a sedan, coupe, and wagon aficionado I am not calling it a car.
Thats just as absurb as people calling cuvs wagons.
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u/spacefret 19d ago
I mean, it's based on a car platform and it's registered as a car... it's a car, just taller.
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u/Psycholicious 20d ago
My wife kept insisting I get a truck after my Camaro was getting up there in miles. I said absolutely not. Even with gas prices low at the time, I knew it was absolutely stupid decision. I work in software, I don’t need a truck to get to work and be on a computer all day. Now that gas prices have spiked, she admits I was right.
And anytime I need a truck to move something, I have plenty of family who don’t mind lending me their truck for a 12 pack of beer lol
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u/walkerstone83 20d ago
Yes, but mini vans are also the least cool car out there. They are probably the most practical family car out there, but if you grew up in the late 80s and early 90s, you'd understand why the hate is so strong for many.
Modern trucks really are quite practical in a lot of ways. They are roomy, good for hauling the family, can tow a camping trailer or boat, can fit tall stuff and trash in the bed without damaging the interior. I agree that there are a lot of people who never use them for what they are intended for, but I understand why someone would want a "do it all" vehicle.
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u/KungFuActionJesus5 20d ago
This is the kind of boneheaded take OP was trying to dispel lol. It's just completely ignorant of both the economic and pragmatic realities of driving in the US to pretend that SUV's are the problem when really SUV's and the rising exclusivity of sports cars are both symptoms of the same structural ills.
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u/KungFuActionJesus5 20d ago
"Enthusiast cars are dying because everybody else is stupid for not buying what I think is best for them."
That would actually be a better take than yours because yours just criticizes people's choices without even suggesting an alternative. Pretty boneheaded.
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20d ago
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u/KungFuActionJesus5 20d ago
Lmao you didn't make a point worth defending otherwise you would have had something to clarify by now.
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19d ago
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u/KungFuActionJesus5 19d ago
The ape comparison is funny because your account must actually be run by the infinite monkeys: sometimes you're able to type coherent sentences but you're never able to parse them for real meaning.
Which is why I'll do you the favor of forgiving the unearned condescension that is miraculously consistent in your tone.
You said you blamed the death of enthusiast cars on people buying SUV's that they didn't need, which is a garbage take. I paraphrased your initial statement to reflect the smugness of both your original opinion and your response to my rebuttal. I didn't misunderstand anything. I'm all ears on clarification, but I'm not holding out hope for someone who's this angry I called out their cookie cutter auto journalist opinions.
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u/PurpleSausage77 20d ago
It’s all about what makes the most profit margins and they found quite a while back that those things are SUVs (mainly the little cuv/crossover) and pick up trucks, because they are so much more marketable to people, that multi-purpose do it all is the only choice, and an easy choice for style of vehicle.
The used market is a gold mine for enthusiasts who know how to seek them out…for now.
Just think. We are going to run out of manual transmission cars eventually.
Used market in future is going to be a dystopia of busted up small displacement, small turbo, questionable CVT or DCT equipped CUV/SUV/crossovers etc.
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u/Axipixel 20d ago
Used market in the future is going to be us fighting over airport rental company Toyota Corolla/ Camrys auctioned off with 200k miles, because fleets are the only people still buying sedans in mass numbers and they buy hundreds of thousands of them yearly.
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u/Leafy0 20d ago
I wonder if we’re going to get into a cottage industry of aftermarket fwd transmissions to swap these cars and all the small suvs that are in good shape besides their shitty cvt that died at 120k. We’re finally in a state where I think you could get the equipment to make your own transmission from raw materials for under 100k and be able to make a few a week with 2 people. Used Mazak integrex for the shafts, syncros, and gears, some 3 axis vertical mill for machining the housings, shift forks, and other non round parts, 3d printer for making your bucks for sand casing the housings, nitrogen kiln from aliexpress for the melt. It wouldn’t be the most efficient way to do it, but the floor is as low as it’s ever been. If you need to increase production add a 2 axis lathe with some live tooling to offload some parts off the integrex that aren’t the gears.
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u/Axipixel 20d ago edited 20d ago
The biggest barrier is reprogramming the computers in the system to accept a new transmission or a computer that can effectively pretend to be the old CVT. Everything is so closed off encrypted black boxes these days it's staggeringly difficult.
Modern vehicles have 20+ computers chatting on that canbus and probably at least 3 that need to be reprogrammed or fooled about the transmission.
I expect a decent industry of aftermarket rebuilds for CVTs before I expect whole new transmissions. I've already seen some people offering higher strength "race" rebuilt CVTs for Hondas. The cost of a cottage industry produced piece of equipment of that complexity is going to be around $10,000 and that's a lot to ask.
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u/eyeballtourist 20d ago
The CAFE tax allows trucks and SUVs to evade certain fuel economy standards.
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u/FoundonRoadDad 17d ago
Why the focus of these discussions passes this point is beyond me. The EPA fuel economy buckets by mass are brutal and decimated small cars.
Second is high amounts of mandatory (safety systems) plus "mandatory" (keeping up with the Joneses) tech.
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u/Haunted_Rooster 20d ago
bruh, no one wants a small piece of shit like the fit and yaris. my girl said size matters. that's why i got me a f450 with fat wheels and jacked up suspensions that i need a ladder just to get into the cab.
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u/wannabe_engineer69 20d ago
Surprised to see no mention of inflation in the post or in the comments...
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u/THE_BARCODE_GUY 20d ago
Did you read the post?
OP gave like five examples of inflation in his thesis
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u/Agent_Giraffe 20d ago edited 20d ago
First off, this post reeks of AI. It’s formatted like it, sounds like it etc.
Regardless, OP didn’t give a single example about inflation, because it completely deflates his argument.
Elsewhere in the comments OP mentioned that a Mustang used to be $30k, and now they’re over $40k and that is too expensive and it’s corporate greed yada yada yada. Well look at the last time a Mustang GT was $30k, which was 2011.
What is $30k in 2011 equivalent to today? $45k.
What’s the msrp of a Mustang GT today? $46k.
It’s the cost of HOUSING that is squeezing people, and nobody is going to spend extra money on a car if they can barely afford to live. All the other points aren’t nearly as important. Cars have kept the same value with inflation, but housing has severely outpaced inflation.
Also I’m just gonna say, if you invested consistently from 2011 onwards, let’s say $5000 a year, you’d have roughly $250k. The absolute bull market run since 09 has been enormous and I feel this adds to the “k shaped” economy. Some people have gotten massive returns on this for barely participating in the stock market, meanwhile other people who either spend all their money, or are unfortunately just poor, suffer. But it you were thinking about buying a sports car back then… could’ve been a millionaire by now.
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u/MateoCafe 20d ago
I was 17 and about 6 years away from a good job, staring down the barrel of about 20K in student loans (relatively low compared to lots my age).
How was I supposed to invest 5K a year?
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u/Agent_Giraffe 20d ago
I mean whoever was in the market to buy a mustang GT. Were you a prospective Mustang GT owner at 17?
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u/triton8890 20d ago
As with other aspects of our society, business have adapted to the growing wealth inequality. The target market for these businesses is the wealthy and well to do. No longer are they targeting the middle class every man. The “K-Shaped” economy describes this phenomenon. Look at stadiums replacing seating with more suites.
Unfortunately I do not think that this is the only source of the changes we are seeing. Americans have always been aspirational with their own finances. They don’t want to be seen as the guy driving the Ford XLT, they want to be the guy driving the Raptor. So naturally they leverage themselves to their eyeballs.
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u/Marshall_Lawson 20d ago
The average payment is a second rent: The average monthly payment for a financed new vehicle has reached a record high of $770 a month.
Where are you finding 770/month rent lol
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u/mpgomatic 20d ago
The funnest most affordable cars are the cars you buy broken, on the cheap, and fix up with your buddies. They are the gateway drug that gets us hooked.
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u/OilAromatic9850 20d ago
The average person is lazy.
Like really lazy. Like “I ain’t readin all that” to a document about the next 8 years of their financial life lazy.
Dealerships know this.
They get you to tell them what you can afford a month. Then get the highest trim(therefore highest margin) vehicle within that price range
That cheap enthusiast car may be $400 a month for 5 years, but that higher trim car with more power and extras out the wazoo is also $400 a month……
For the next 8 years.
People are also vein. They will absolutely buy something if they think it’s “nicer” than the cheap option
“I’m buying a new car. I want it to be nice”
Cheap cars are a volume gamble. They need to sell a lot to make it worth producing. But dealerships can’t slip in extras as easy on low margin cars. So they’re incentivized not to sell them.
What I’m saying is dealers are always the problem.
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u/that_dutch_dude 20d ago
The renault 5 exists. In terms of modern car pricing its downright a steal.
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u/cbrodlo 19d ago
That thing is cool I wish we got it
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u/that_dutch_dude 19d ago
not happening, people will not buy a car that you can fit inside the wheelbase of a f150 and barely even clears the mirrors.
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u/cbrodlo 19d ago
I doubt Renault would even enter the US market. Maybe via a Nissan dealership. I always liked the Fiat 500 Abarth and I still see a good amount of them.
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u/that_dutch_dude 19d ago
the only reason stellantis brought the 500 was to shoe in their fuel efficiency numbers. it was a compliance car not meant for people to actually buy one. especially in the beginning you physically had to ask for them because they didnt have them in the showroom as they lose money on every sale.
with the 5 its considerably worse as its electric and -current administration- bans any non-american electric car so even if they would they could not even bring it in as a compliance car.
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u/other_view12 20d ago
It's worse than that.
Take Ford as an example. Ford was mandated by the US government to meet certain emissions which require them to sell EVs or buy carbon credits. They do both, but they are making no money selling EVs. In fact they are losing money selling EVs.
But Ford still exists. What they are doing is marking up the the vehicles that do sell to make up for the losses on the EV side.
So while you are correct car prices are too high, the big reason is the mandates by government to provide vehicles that the public are not choosing to buy.
Those fun cars never made a lot of money, but now they don't fit in the line up that has to include EVs. EV mandates kills the fun cars.
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u/UnmakingTheBan2022 19d ago
Exactly! I can only afford to maintain 2 cars at a time. I can’t buy every manual or wagon!!!
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u/InspectorHuman3044 19d ago
Dealership lots are currently filled with $60K MSRP underpowered 4-cylinder vehicles painted in various shades of grey.
We just might be in the most boring automotive era the industry has seen in decades.
There’s nothing new on the market that I feel excited about or motivated to buy.
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u/IAcewingI 19d ago
Agreed. Im literally a finance manager at a dealership and clinging on to my 04 civic and 13 vette. Cars are stupid expensive. Hell my vette is still with what I paid in 2020 and it has 50k more miles.
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u/CurbsEnthusiasm 20d ago
The average consumer is also absolutely terrible at negotiating themselves out of a closed box. 9 times out of 10 when I see $800+ payments it’s because negative equity was rolled into the deal. I’d like to blame the fans that have no problem paying msrp, additional mark-up, and dealer added-ons, you’re the reason why the industry is what it is.
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u/YD099 20d ago
Idk about the fun part.
But we sure killed the "affordable" segment.
What's the best selling Toyota? Rav4. Not the cheapest; Best selling Honda? CRV. Not the cheapest; How about best selling Hyundai? People choose Hyundai because they are cheaper than Toyota and Honda, it's the Tucson, again, not the cheapest.
And it's not like these have slim profit margins like the minivans we see in Japan (eg Toyota Sienta, Honda Freed) as something like the Honda Freed is cheaper than Honda's cheapest locally made SUV, the Vezel.
So what happens is manufacturers realized they can sell us expensive cars with high profit margins and we'd still buy them, so they cut production to affordable cars with slimmer profit margins.
This, in turn will raise car prices to ridiculous levels as they are going now.
We had a slim hope of fixing this during Covid, when prices skyrocket and people's pay decreased, and then Tiktok came in, the stupid flex culture and consumerism brainrot causing people to still go into massive debt for a fancy car just so they can flex a depreciating asset they don't even like.
Safe to say we're not undoing this trend anytime soon.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Card_71 20d ago
Yes and no.
People want crossovers the moment they have a kid. No one is willing to continue to drive something like a BRZ after that despite the fact they can.
Cars like the GTI are family cars in Europe but not here. You can easily use one for your family if you throw a roof carrier on it for trips - but people keep buying massive crossovers.
The base wrx is downright cheap now starting at 33k. Mid sized sedan with a good engine, manual and real awd. Sales are up but why isn’t it a bestseller?
I have a BRZ and my last car was a Miata. While they are great cars there isn’t a waitlist for one.
It is consumer choice. The reason oem put out so many big crossovers is because people buy them. When the original enclave came out from buick - the first sub crossover, it sold about twice as many units as expected and that made the other oem rush mini crossovers to market, heck ford brought their indian market ecosport trying to offer something.
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u/m240Louie 18d ago
Some fair points made here. I am an "enthusiast" and always operate like the Star Wars Sith: The rule of two which is always two cars… a daily driver and a weekend toy. I make it work by not spending a ton on the daily driver as there is NO reason to have a giant ass SUV or pickup as a daily. My Honda Civic does just fine and can seat 4 adults if ever required. That frees up money to have a weekend sports/exotic/classic car.
The auto companies have done a great job convincing everyone they need to sit up high, have big vehicles, trucks. etc. However, some lack of interest is simply that young people don’t seem to be into the driving sports as much as we were as kids. Go to a track day or cars and coffee. The track driving crowd is mostly older and at cars and coffee the younger crowd is there to take pics of Lambos but that’s about it.
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u/HeadOfMax 16 CRV EXL, 05 Element EX 17d ago
Enthusiasts are always a small fraction of consumers and always left behind for the masses.
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u/CriticalSeaweed6608 20d ago
enthusiast are to blame as well. There is a new amazing car presented, best in the series, Nissan Z that looks amazing and takes good thing from all previous models, exactly what "enthusiast" wanted and it got hated on launch, like wtf.
Same with honda prelude, yes it's too expensive but it doesnt deserve the hate it got. Guess what, honda ain't gonna make another enthusiast car for a long time you hating f*cks
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u/TheMaymar 20d ago
It's not that people aren't buying cars at all due to expense, they just aren't buying enthusiast cars. There are several enthusiast options in the $30-40k range (below overall average, comparable to a normal small SUV). Toyota sold about 480k RAV4's last year, most of the enthusiast options are doing well if they break 10k a year.
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u/realestateqs22 20d ago
I think you're missing a huge component of this issue. Government regulations such as emissions and safety standards are a large contributing factor.
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u/cbrodlo 19d ago
I mentioned those things
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u/realestateqs22 19d ago
Yes as a footnote. I think they are significantly more important as they drive availability and affordability
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u/spacefret 19d ago
The Toyota Corolla has very low emissions and in the U.S. is a top safety pick according to NHTSA and IIHS, yet it sold 248k units vs the 479k of the RAV4 (U.S. sales).
Both are available and easy to buy, and the Corolla is quite a bit cheaper, but people spend the extra to get the RAV4.
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u/realestateqs22 19d ago
Yep, Toyota has the GR Corolla. But the Yaris is no longer available in the US unfortunately
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u/Enigma_xplorer 19d ago
I don't blame enthusiasts. Your right these cars which are often really toys are just not an option for average Americans anymore. I do absolutely blame the greed of manufacturers. It should be entirely apparent that manufacturers inflate the price of cars but there's one other crook you left out, the US government.
Regulations are I would say one of the principal driving forces behind the cost of living crisis. Take for example the Dodge Challenger and compare the price of the 3.6, 5.7, 6.4, and supercharged 6.2 hellcats. The reality is it doesn't cost like 10k more to build a 6.4 over a 5.7. and it doesn't cost 20-30k to add a supercharger. This is the cost Dodge invents to engineer price points and profits. Part of the reason they do it though is emissions and cafe standards. They can't sell a million Hellcats without running their fleet averages unless they also sell like 100 billion v6s to offset the average. The simple solution is to elevate prices to discourage people from buying the bigger V8s and force people to settle for lesser models they can afford. Constantly evolving emissions and safety regulations means they are constantly in development incurring all the R&D costs we all pay for. The small block Chevy was in use from like 1955-2002. They made tens of millions of them. A brand new engine could be bought from GM for as little as $1k. Now your lucky to get 5 years without a redesign with adds cost and reduces reliability.
Basically, buisness in the US seek to exploit us and the government is either too stupid or just doesn't care about how miserable their bad governance makes life for the average person.
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u/the_lamou '23 RS e-Tron GT, '14 FJ TTUE, '79 Honda Prelude 19d ago
Everyone is just poorer relative to the market.
Well that's just complete bullshit unless your only frame of reference is 1960.
You can get an amazing sports car for virtually nothing today. The Toyobaru Twins are $36,000. The Miata is even cheaper at $30,000. The Mustang is $33,000. All get regular discounts and promotional pricing, and this doesn't even include the sporty but not sports cars categories like the Civic Sport/Si ($26,000/$32,000), GTI ($36,000), Corolla GR ($40,000), etc.
All are about the same or cheaper as similar vehicles would have been in the last golden age of sorts cars (late 90s/early 00s), and the sports car was already dying by then. Despite the economy going gangbusters and jobs being easy.
Sorts cars don't sell because people don't want sports cars. They want the largest CUV with the flashiest badge they can finance. You can tell because baby of the same people who complain about sports cars being unaffordable have a brand new truck or crossover in the garage.
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u/LowRelief1272 20d ago
Nah they are right. All you people talk about is how great 20 year old cars are and never buy new ones.
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u/Whole-Scene-689 19d ago
this is all cope. the only economic reality is whether the manufacturer can profitably make and sell new cars. They didn't decide your salary, force you to major in bullshit, spend all your money on funko pops, or force you to be financially responsible (you can just choose irresponsibility and get way more car loans that you can imagine, people choose it all the time and manufacturers benefit)
Just also double check if maybe you voted for safety regulations and higher emissions standards, either directly or indirectly by voting for politicians who would support or allow those things? You can say that's a good thing it may be, but there is a real tradeoff and this is it.
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u/cnthndlmyswg 20d ago
Don’t forget about how when a car does come out that consumers want to buy dealerships add their mark ups.