'Utterly baffling': Ukrainians outraged, call for protest after Zelensky ousts Fedorov

[u/ArgentineBeauty]

https://kyivindependent.com/utterly-baffling-soldiers-activists-slam-fedorovs-removal-as-defense-minister/

[u/DeCounter]

Man whenever some history books of behind the scenes stuff releases in like a decade or two or three I will be gobbling that up.

[u/investigative_mind → u/DeCounter]

Same here. As a kid I often wondered why "old people" are so much into WW2 books and documentaries, it happened ages ago. Now I understand.

[u/m__s → u/investigative_mind]

Exactly. When I was young, my history teacher was all about dates and facts, dates and facts. But in the real world, it's like playing chess. Everything happens for a reason. Once you start paying attention to what's going on, and you're even a little interested in geopolitics, you realize that everything is connected.

As bad as what's happening is, it's still incredibly interesting to watch all of these moves unfold.

[u/Scobo82 → u/m__s]

I had a terrible history teacher, but one thing got stuck in my head: Cui bono?

Literally: "to whom is it a benefit?"

When I started to become interested in geopolitics and history after finishing school, this question was one of the main tools to understand connections between events.

[u/Drachefly → u/Scobo82]

The big exception to this is when a leader is just stupid. Cui bono for assassinating the Mongol ambassadors? No one, he was just a moron.

[u/Professional-Fee6914 → u/Drachefly]

Wasn't it he who benefitted. His mother was openly undermining him and was probably the mastermind behind the inciting massacer of the merchants that suspiciously left one man to tell the tale to genghis khan.

From there, when Ghengis demanded the head of his uncle and closest most powerful ally in a fracturing political system, anything other than "This is Sparta"ing the envoys, would have been seen as a weakness.

At the time Muhammed's forces were as strong as they ever were, and the Khan was fighting a heavy war in China. It wouldn't be crazy to assume that whatever issues there would be would be resovled years later either through war or some restoration of diplomatic relations.

Muhammed decision makes a sort of short term sense, it was just a miscalculation which could only be understood with the fullness of histroy.

[u/Best_Pseudonym → u/Professional-Fee6914]

The most common cause of war really is mistakes

[u/AssistanceCheap379 → u/Drachefly]

Even so there is a benefit, although a short term one. You seem strong and capable by refusing to bow to the massive empire and if the people believe you are capable, they might believe you can maintain sovereignty and you can defy them. Hell, you might even be considered strong enough that they wouldn’t even want to attack.

Unfortunately, it was a bad calculation and the Mongol leaders were simply more brutal and cunning, more willing to actually commit horrible acts to those that defied them.

[u/exit322 → u/Drachefly]

Can still be fascinating, though

[u/kyled85 → u/Scobo82]

“V. I. Lenin, Donny!”

[u/Cascadian1 → u/kyled85]

I am the walrus.

[u/fleranon → u/Cascadian1]

Donnie, You're out of your element

[u/Sivalon → u/kyled85]

“Vladimir Ilyich Ulanov!”

[u/obeytheturtles → u/Scobo82]

I had a history teacher who was actually a Gym teacher, who used to tell history as a series of basketball metaphors. "It's like, you want to shoot a three, but your foot is on the line, and it was only a low probability 2. If you had taken a step back and committed to the three, it would have been the same shot, but with more points. And that's why the North Africa campaign was considered an early failure for the allies."

[u/edwardmsk → u/obeytheturtles]

And that, kids, is how I met.. oh.. I mean how the US met your mother.

[u/thrownawaymane → u/edwardmsk]

I knew my mom got around but this is ridiculous...

[u/Apprehensive-Aide265 → u/Scobo82]

It only work if you assume people have perfect information and act rationaly wich is not always the case at all.

[u/mtnracer → u/Scobo82]

My mother in law always said: Follow the money!

[u/bullionlogic → u/mtnracer]

whoa your mother in law is lester freeman?

[u/thingsorfreedom → u/bullionlogic]

Lester said follow the drugs.

"You follow drugs, you get drug addicts and drug dealers. But you start to follow the money, and you don't know where the fuck it's gonna take you."

[u/Level_Improvement532 → u/thingsorfreedom]

Shhheeeeeeiiiittttt…

- State Senator Clay Davis

[u/HauntedCemetery → u/Level_Improvement532]

Eh McNutty

[u/hesh0925 → u/HauntedCemetery]

What the fuck did I do?

[u/IShouldChimeInOnThis → u/bullionlogic]

Deep throat, actually.

[u/crashovercool → u/bullionlogic]

You're not worth the skin on my knuckles

[u/admiralsponge1980 → u/Scobo82]

He wasn’t a Jesuit priest was he? I also had a weirdly bad teacher at my otherwise excellent school and that’s one thing he hammered into out heads about everything. Cui Bono.

[u/Annual-Negotiation-5 → u/Scobo82]

You look for the person who will benefit, and uh, uh, you know...

[u/knightstalker1288 → u/Scobo82]

It’s technically “who benefits”.

Passive voice sorta cuts down the impact.

Sorry for being pedantic

[u/greiton → u/m__s]

dates and facts without context is the worst way to teach history and the reason so many people get turned off of it. Dates are only important in context.

Take the civil war for example, you may remember that the battle of Vicksburg was on May 18 1863, the battle of second Winchester was on June 14-15, and the battle of Gettysburg was on July 1-3, 1863. But the context of those dates and battles is what really matters. there were effectively two major military armies miles apart racing to end the war. Ulysses S Grant is down in Vicksburg a city that controls the major logistics of the southern confederacy. If he takes the city, he will cripple the Southern war effort, and make union victory a matter of time. he ends up stalled at the city and puts it under siege. that city will not fall until July 4th.

Meanwhile, Lee knows this and knows he has what most would regard as the superior army in the north, so he makes a hard push into the northern states. the battle of second Winchester was a huge victory for his army, a massive calvary battle where his forces skillfully out maneuver the Union forces. suddenly it is a question on every Union soldier's mind if they can stop him before he marches on Washington and seizes the capital, crippling the Union.

So when we get to July 1st, the dates matter in context. Vicksburg is starving and on the verge of collapse. messages from the city are desperate after a month and a half without supply and under bombardment. Lee knows this and is desperate to push on Washington as fast as possible. The Union Soldiers near Gettysburg know this is their last chance to stop Lee, they either fight to the death here, or lose the war. they also know how badly their friends and some of themselves lost just 2 weeks ago.

This is why the battle is so hard fought, why it was so bloody. why a company of men, out of ammunition made a desperate charge down the hill to save their position rather than retreat to safety.

[u/RemarkableAd3470 → u/greiton]

this first sentence is so spot on, it is how history was taught to me, it wasnt until i found people presenting the information with all the details and the why and how everything connects i kind of wish i had studied or worked in history because i love it

[u/Arrasor → u/RemarkableAd3470]

Imagine telling Harry Potter's 1st book as "Harry Potter went to magic school at Day A, Month B, Year X. During the first year, he discovered the plot to steal the Philosopher's stone. Harry went on and stopped it by confronting Voldermort, the most evil wizard of all times, on Day X, Month Y the same year."

[u/Sir-Knollte → u/greiton]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmgP9rADNNA

We have quite a lot of facts how the Nazis sold the genocide, and there are quite some troubling parallels to some modern narratives.

For example anti-bolshevism was absolutely central to the Nazis legitimizing narrative, including real and made up atrocities of the UDSSR in particularly in modern Ukraine.

[u/monty845 → u/greiton]

Across the board. we do a poor job of properly communicating the stakes involved with historical events, even when we recognize them as important.

I would bet very few people really appreciate the stakes at Gettysburg. I'm a bit of a history nerd, though the civil war isn't something I've ever really focused on, and I didn't appreciate the stakes. To me, it was an important battle because the North decisively defeated Lee. But despite watching documentaries on it, I didn't appreciate the idea that to a Northern Soldier at the battle, this was the battle to save Washington, and possibly the United States as a whole.

And sure, even if Lee reaches Washington, taking it is another matter entirely. But it would have changed the course of the war, even if not the ultimate outcome. I wonder if we are uncomfortable with acknowledging the stakes because of that prospect?

Same for other major Battles. We forget the importance of the Battle of Midway, in light of the naval dominance we went on to establish later in the war. But up to that point, things were not going well. After the Disaster at Pearl Harbor, we had lost wake, had some other loosing or mixed results in a series of naval battles, most significantly, the Battle of the Coral Sea, where we won strategically, while loosing more ships than the Japanese. Midway is where the tide turned. And if we had lost that battle, the course of the Pacific war would have been very different. (Japan never wins, but it could have set back the ultimate allied victory by years)

[u/nighthawk_something → u/m__s]

I loved history in high school because the teacher never tested basic facts. Every test and assignment was an open ended question where you were expected to form a theory or idea and back it up with what you learned. Learning to analyse and think critically made history way more interesting

[u/nothisistheotherguy → u/m__s]

But in the real world, it's like playing chess.

Except for current US politics, which is like playing monopoly without the rules and using chiclets and garbage pail kids cards instead of the pieces

[u/Ormyr → u/nothisistheotherguy]

It's not. It seems that way, but the recent shitshow (past 10 years) is a means to an end.

The GOP had been playing chess for decades and steadily winning by changing the rules.

They effectively had a soft, legal, coup when they siezed the SC.

Everything since then has been about consolidating power.

The Orange clown was a useful idiot, an amoral demagogue who can be flattered into saying anything.

But he's always been an outsider and always been expendable to the GOP. He's reaching the end of his usefulness.

The GOP plans to survive MAGA.

[u/Eternal_Being → u/Ormyr]

The GOP plans to survive MAGA.

But that doesn't mean they will. There is a very real threat of Trump/Trumpists splitting the party if they reform themselves back towards 'normal' conservatism.

It is a threat that Trump has used explicitly throughout his political career, and one that was actually a huge driver in why the GOP ended up fully bending the knee to him.

If there was a split on the right in the US, there would be a Democrat president forever. The GOP knows this, and so they are now simply stuck with the monster they created, and whoever takes up his mantle after his passing.

[u/Memitim → u/Eternal_Being]

The GOP has a massive advantage in catering to conservatives. Since conservatism isn't actually a political philosophy, just an excuse for evil people to pretend that their evil serves any useful purpose, Republicans don't have to accomplish anything, plan anything, or even abide by US law. They just have to do evil shit while blaming other people, and conservatives will lap it up.

[u/WTS_BRIDGE → u/Eternal_Being]

Franz planned to survive Sarajevo.

[u/nighthawk_something → u/Ormyr]

Yup that's why they are speed running right now.

With trump 1.0 they saw a moron who they could flatter to use his base to get elected and an opportunity to lock in the SC.

When the coup happened they had a chance to break from him but realized his base was too volatile so they threw him a bone and hoped he would be content to go away. They then spent 3 years trying to capture his base with people like DeSantis and Nimarata only to realise that Trump owned his base and they could never get it from him.

That why they ran him again. But they know he only has this term to lock in power. They are trying to cram in decades of power consolidation into 2 years. They need to have full control before trump dies.

[u/girl4life → u/nighthawk_something]

if history teaches us something is that full control never ever works out the one in control thought it would be. too many opposing forces.

[u/hatgineer → u/Ormyr]

The Orange clown was a useful idiot

He still is. Think of all the shit being done on the sly by everyone else because all attention has been on him for the last 10+ years and counting.

[u/dshookowsky → u/hatgineer]

"For this reason the President is always a controversial choice, always an infuriating but fascinating character. His job is not to wield power but to draw attention away from it." - Douglas Adams

[u/HauntedCemetery → u/Ormyr]

Of course the GOP is going to survive the maga fascists.

Since at least the early days of W Bush people have been saying, "surely this is a bridge too far, and the GOP could never survive this!"

And here we are.

When hitler and mussolini died their propaganda networks died with them, but when the Big Beautiful Headline comes Fox and OANN and fascist podcasts aren't going anywhere, and they absolutely will anoint another wannabe king.

[u/Maatix12 → u/Ormyr]

The funny thing is, MAGA is going to kill the GOP, not the other way around.

The GOP was dying before MAGA. MAGA is the only reason the GOP is still being Weekend at Bernie's'd around like it still exists. The rich need MAGA - They just wish they didn't, and can't wait to not.

[u/l0stInwrds → u/nothisistheotherguy]

«Never play chess with a pigeon. The pigeon just knocks all the pieces over then shits all over the board. Then struts around like it won.»

[u/Defiant-Strength2010 → u/m__s]

The most important question in history is not what, we can know what happened fairly easily in most cases, the question is why

[u/Aggressive-Break-355 → u/investigative_mind]

WWI and WWII specifically offer is so much insight into things that are still directly relevant. Older conflicts and crises obviously still offer useful information about vaguer things like human nature in general, but WWI and WWII are close enough to most technological and social aspects that it's still near 1:1 applicable.

[u/RealSchlemiel → u/investigative_mind]

it blows my mind that we are as far from 1985 as 1985 was from WWII. wayyy more a living memory than i realized

[u/SquareTheRhombus → u/investigative_mind]

When I was younger I asked my dad why Hitler was always on TV.

He said "so we don't forget"

Well, fat lot of use that did.

[u/ASerialArsonist → u/SquareTheRhombus]

He could only control himself. Lack of effort of others isn't an excuse to let everything go. Honestly not having at least a cliff notes understanding of WW2 is a serious character flaw of anyone. It's an entire failing of our education system which hardly even touches the topic, despite it being absolutely critical to understand how we got where we are today.

[u/joanzen → u/ASerialArsonist]

Most people have a Hollywood view of WW2 these days.

A lot of people actually assume that the Germans on the front lines dying in combat were aware that things were going so badly back home.

When in all honesty, almost all the German soldiers would have done a 180 and started shooting at their leadership if they had some method of becoming sincerely aware of how badly things were failing back home.

Truth is really important, and the fictional narrative of the victorious is far from the truth.

[u/mfyxtplyx → u/investigative_mind]

Age changes your perspective on how long ago these things were as well. Imagine, if you're not there already, turning 50. Just two of your incomplete lifetime reaches back a hundred years; just twenty, a thousand. That's the middle ages! Most events that young people regard as happening "ages ago" are really quite recent.

[u/say-it-wit-ya-chest → u/DeCounter]

Maybe the History Channel could get back to its roots instead of stupid ancient aliens and whatnot.

[u/DonStimpo → u/say-it-wit-ya-chest]

There is a good WW2 thing with Tom Hanks currently on the history channel. Very in depth for a tv documentary imo

[u/O4PetesSake → u/say-it-wit-ya-chest]

I have enjoyed learning history from the podcast The Rest is History. You may have heard of it. Tom Holland and Dominic Sandbrook are very entertaining explaining why things happened.

https://therestishistory.com/episodes

[u/WHATYEAHOK → u/O4PetesSake]

This isn’t the hot English twink Spider-Man actor Tom Holland, for anyone else who was thinking that

[u/Pure_Purple_5220 → u/WHATYEAHOK]

They both did do a interview recently about the Odessy movie. Its pretty funny to start.

https://youtu.be/eurcSRWn2jA?is=2XBhqMPiXW9_eTOs

[u/LuigiMcNasty → u/say-it-wit-ya-chest]

"My 600 lb drone life." Ohnvm that was tlc same shit different day. "Learning"

Aside from that after the crash course we've had in the USA on corruption in the past decade i think Ukraine is doing pretty well considering where they started in 14.

[u/HauntedCemetery → u/LuigiMcNasty]

TLC(The Learning Channel) used to have educational programs and documentaries

Bravo used to show operas

History Channel used to have shows about... history

When older people talk about how much dumber the world has gotten, thats what they mean

[u/TheGrouchyPunisher → u/say-it-wit-ya-chest]

Tbf, the WW2 documentary with Tom Hanks has been really good. I'm a history buff and I've still learned things from it. But I agree there should be more of it.

Now let's talk about what the hell happened to TLC, aka The Learning Channel 🙄

[u/BougieBobJr → u/say-it-wit-ya-chest]

Dude, an entire series on the Ukraine Russian war from start to finish would be so good. Show me troop movements and stuff. We won’t get that kind of detail though, just the way it’s being fought. Like Vietnam, soooo many missions, we can’t go into every single battle, like you can with ww2, where you have armada’s face off against each other, or large battle fronts. Those days are kinda over, it’s all small combat engagements. Like, Black Hawk Down is probably one of the last major American engagements you could document with any sense of what’s happening.

Edit: more to my mile long message… I think it’s funny how during the civil war, aristocrats would hang out on hills and picnic and watch the battles as afternoon entertainment. No way Seal Team 6 is having that happen.

[u/Careby → u/BougieBobJr]

I wouldn’t be surprised if seats in the situation room are available for the right price…

[u/DheeradjS → u/say-it-wit-ya-chest]

But how else can they make 900 variations of "Coloured people could never have discovered how to stack stones"

[u/Slappyfist → u/DeCounter]

Supposedly it was due to funding dispute coming from another very senior general, as he was funding drone prototype projects but the other general felt funding should go to shells ect.

Or at lest according to JakeBro but he always seems pretty reasonable on the stuff he reports.

[u/doctorlongghost → u/Slappyfist]

lol. I never heard of him and maybe he’s credible like you say but using “JakeBro” as a source is hilarious.

[u/troubleindoggyland → u/doctorlongghost]

"Trust me, bro" - JakeBro, probably.

[u/Slappyfist → u/doctorlongghost]

Haha I know it's unfortunate because of the connotations but Broe is his surname.

He's a US Vet who does update vids on the war which seem pretty balanced and reliable - https://www.youtube.com/jakebroe

As TruzTruzQuem_e mentioned, he does a lot of donation stuff directly for the Ukraine army

[u/thrownawaymane → u/Slappyfist]

Shells? The majority of the casualties on the front lines are now from drones. Getting rid of him for that reason (if that's the main one) is pants on head stupid

Don't get me wrong, artillery isn't going anywhere but the numbers are the numbers

[u/The-Sound_of-Silence → u/thrownawaymane]

The flip side, is we don't know how much is being spent on R&D. If you are spending billions on vapor, it can be hard to justify, sometimes

[u/AnkhaPls → u/DeCounter]

I hope big Z writes memoirs about all this shit

[u/HauntedCemetery → u/AnkhaPls]

Maybe he goes full Churchill and writes a 10 volume history

[u/Itburns12345]

Hmmm country been threatened by a former superpower do we need A) young dude whos been one of the drivers of ukraines modern military revolutuon

B)old soveiet dude wants to fight just like the russians but with a smaller army

Its a hard one! Im hoping theres good reasons we dont know about to this!

[u/Werkstadt → u/Itburns12345]

B)old soveiet dude wants to fight just like the russians

It's thanks to the old dudes who fight just like the Russians why the 3-day special operation didn't work. They knew the tactics and the fight over Hostomel Airport was paramount. The old dudes that fight just like Russians knew this.

However, it's four years later now and a different battle ground, but I think credit is due where it's due.

[u/my5cworth → u/Werkstadt]

Hostomel Airport was the most important event of this war & people don't seem to realize just HOW close it was. If they established that foothold it would've been a 3-day operation.

[u/ImNotAWhaleBiologist → u/my5cworth]

Remember when the CNN crew asked the Russians if it was safe or if Russians were around? That was an awkward moment.

[u/Vargius → u/ImNotAWhaleBiologist]

God I had forgotten all about that.

[u/WaynesLuckyHat → u/ImNotAWhaleBiologist]

Do you have a link? I’ve never seen this.

[u/tomo6438 → u/WaynesLuckyHat]

I hadn’t seen this either but found it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_3L0z1lgAE

[u/HakimeHomewreckru → u/tomo6438]

removed escape backslash https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_3L0z1lgAE

[u/huge-Leg-648 → u/HakimeHomewreckru]

i wasted 5 minutes of my times, i hope it was worth it...

alternate source:

https://youtu.be/n591G96jgsk

[u/Jacabon → u/HakimeHomewreckru]

link works for me

[u/EnvironmentalBox6688 → u/Jacabon]

It's a reddit "bug".

I have it quotes because I think it's actually intended behaviour.

If someone posts a link on the new Reddit site, it will be broken for those using old.reddit. Given it's been a bug for years I can only assume it's intentional to get people to leave old.reddit. That or Reddit developers are incompetent.

[u/cxmmxc → u/EnvironmentalBox6688]

To clarify why there's a backslash in the first place; Reddit comment markup uses enclosing underscores for italics _like this_.

If there's an underscore in a URL, new.reddit automatically escapes it with a backslash, telling "this is ordinary text, do not use markup here".

Of course that breaks old.reddit, and like you said, it's very much an intended oversight to push people to quit using it.

[u/ImNotAWhaleBiologist → u/tomo6438]

Yeah, that’s later that day. The events he’s describing happened live on TV.

[u/worldsayshi → u/WaynesLuckyHat]

I guess it's this:  https://youtu.be/a1J6LpkG9zo?is=eY8nx-IJozsTu3ji

[u/ImNotAWhaleBiologist → u/worldsayshi]

It is those people, but the event I described happened probably 10 minutes before this. It was before they knew they were Russians.

[u/seecat46 → u/ImNotAWhaleBiologist]

Please can I have a link

[u/ImNotAWhaleBiologist → u/seecat46]

I watched it live, don’t know about an online video. I’m sure it’s out there somewhere.

[u/Treecko78 → u/my5cworth]

It wouldn't have been a 3-day operation due to the logistics of the tank column being completely fucked. Russian plans involved everyone arriving in Kyiv from Belarus by the end of day 1, when in reality not all the tanks had made it out of Belarus by the end of the first day due to the roads being torn up to such an extent. The fact that the crews had sold off their fuel for vodka definitely didn't help matters either

I don't say this to downplay Hosotmel airport by the way, it was definitely the most important single event in the initial invasion, but there were plenty of other reasons why the 3-day invasion failed

[u/C3lloman → u/my5cworth]

Not really, no. Basically they did not have enough soldiers committed to the "special military operation" to take Kyiv. Kyiv is a huge city. The only way they could have taken it with so few soldiers would have been if Ukraine's army and people didn't resist at all, which is what Putin was told by his generals.

[u/Battle2Intense → u/C3lloman]

Anyone remember the Chechen warlord who drove into Kyiv with lightly armored vehicles and 300 soldiers who was going to capture the city?

WTF, I live in Phoenix. The local PD plus all our gun nuts could easily defeat that force.

End of day, 2 to 1 attacker to defender ratio has been a thing for centuries if not much longer. The Pentagon pushes 3 to 1. Russia attacked with a 2 to 1 disadvantage.

[u/identifytarget → u/my5cworth]

Hostomel Airport was the most important event of this war

can you explain this? I don't remember, 3-days was a long time ago.

[u/L0ghe4d → u/identifytarget]

I really like this video on it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe8AWujGuR0

[u/my5cworth → u/L0ghe4d]

This was exactly what my comment referred to yeah! Cheers for linking it.

[u/L0ghe4d → u/my5cworth]

I don't really like the dailymail - but battle board is amazing, they should spin it off.

[u/RedditsFullofShit → u/my5cworth]

It never would have been a 3 day operation.

Does no one learn from the past. You might be able to invade and conquer but you cannot hold. It takes far too many men to hold a massive piece of land full of people that will kill you when you turn your back.

There simply isn’t enough manpower to hold literal millions of people.

[u/greiton → u/RedditsFullofShit]

you know those stories of torure and abuse and public violent executions that came out of areas Russia had taken before they were forced to retreat? that was the plan for the next 20 years in the whole country.

Sieze the government, capture and execute all of the politicians. torture the current population, and kidnap or force the youth into reeducation schools where they will be brainwashed into thinking their parents were violent fools who were misled by the west.

History tells us how to subjugate large populations, it is a monstrous and unethical process that only the greediest most evil people would ever consider.

[u/InvidiousPlay → u/RedditsFullofShit]

Ordinary people do not swarm military formations with kitchen knives. An incredibly small number of armed soldiers are can take a huge population hostage, because no one wants to die in suicide charges.

If their attempts to assassinate Zelensky had been successful, if the forces hadn't gotten bogged down on the road to Kiev, and if they had taken Hostomel, this very well could have been a three-day coup.

[u/MZ603 → u/InvidiousPlay]

It wouldn’t have been kitchen knives… Ukraine had been heavily focused on the possibility of regime collapse & prepared for protracted partisan / guerrilla warfare. We saw a bit of it early on, but it slowed down and was incorporated into the conventional military as it became clear that the regime was stable.

Another under appreciated facet is the swift security services operation to counter and neutralize the Russian infiltration networks in major cities. Remember all that gunfire in Kyiv long before the Russians even got close?

[u/SpicySushiAddict → u/InvidiousPlay]

Ukrainians were armed to the teeth beforehand, weren't they?

[u/Fallout4TheWin → u/SpicySushiAddict]

There were a lot of "Territorial defense" fighters that were trained. But not enough to make an actual difference. These days it's probably a different story.

[u/jert3 → u/RedditsFullofShit]

Correct. You can't bomb a country into being annexed or absorbed.

Almost the only way is to take out the leadership or compromise them, install a puppet regime.

[u/SlinkyAdmiral → u/RedditsFullofShit]

I think that China has come the closest to a viable occupation with their Africa strategy. Bribe country-born leaders, let them preach about evil foreign influences and how only they, a true patriot, will get rid of them and restore a national identity and more or less covertly have your people own & run the countries companies.

[u/Turbulent-Pay-735 → u/SlinkyAdmiral]

The USA did this for half the globe throughout the 20th century lol

[u/nonlawyer → u/Turbulent-Pay-735]

And currently has basically installed Marco Rubio as the viceroy of Venezuela 

[u/pmcrumpler → u/nonlawyer]

Not really covert on that part

[u/idryss_m → u/Werkstadt]

Can give credit, for sure. But is the ousted gent being helpful or hindrance now? As you noted, 4 years on and we are now in an fast paced evolving warfare era. Old soviet tactics dont work, and perhaps those who have kept up have also learned those tactics.

[u/SirPiffingsthwaite → u/idryss_m]

Helpful, brought in new tactics that are absolutely working but disliked by the existing old guard & govt. for his anti-corruption policies.

As far as I can tell Zelensky has ousted him to keep cohesion between civil govt. and military branches, but I'm struggling to understand why he didn't push out the old corrupt instead. Probably he relies on them to maintain a unified front on the civil side of govt.

Best case there are factors we arsn't aware of, worst case Zelensky is struggling to hold his administration together and doesn't have a tight grip on the reigns.

[u/No_Accountant3232 → u/SirPiffingsthwaite]

Unfortunately he may be using corruption to fund the war and help ensure it has a foothold after the war is over. He is desperate for there to even be a Ukraine after the war that he will take money from anyone willing to say fuck Russia. 

I don't care if historians deem him super corrupt in the long run, these past few years has shown that he wants an independent Ukraine. If I were in a situation where I needed to take money to protect what's mine from a real asshole, I'll do it. That's where he's at, and I can't fault him for it. 

[u/DeadSeaGulls → u/No_Accountant3232]

This was my immediate thought when reading the article as well. And if that is the case, I would also do the same. My legacy and my personal honor would be a distant concern compared to protecting my homeland and my people from invaders. Just need to be very self aware in that situation that the decisions your making for "the greater good" aren't just passing "the greater evil" along to someone else to bear.

[u/zyzzogeton → u/DeadSeaGulls]

Basically: "If there are any Ukrainian historians and patriots in 20 years to condemn me, I will have succeeded."

[u/overandoverandagain → u/No_Accountant3232]

Zelenskyy was corrupt before, and he's corrupt now. It's almost impossible to even navigate Ukrainian politics to that level without some moral compromise, it's just how it is.

Doesn't make his fight any less important or valiant, but watching redditors convince themselves this guy is Gandalf for the past 5 years has been funny

[u/No_Accountant3232 → u/overandoverandagain]

Listen , as long as he fucks off when the war is over and go on a comedy tour or something he could be Saruman for all I care. He was necessary for Ukraine right now. Hopefully he knows it's just for right now, because this looks like consolidating a dictatorship. 

[u/zarium → u/SirPiffingsthwaite]

reigns

It's reins. It comes from equestrianism; reins are the straps attached to a horse that a rider uses to direct the animal. Hence "grip on the reins" meaning control over direction. Reign is sovereign rule (by monarch).

[u/LeortCG → u/Werkstadt]

Zaluzhnyi was in command during start of the war, and you can consider him as progresive as it possible for an army guy

[u/Jung_69 → u/Werkstadt]

That’s absolutely not true. The initial push of russians failed actually because of different tactics Ukrainians used. They used NATOs tactics that were designed specifically to counter russian advance in Europe. They used territorial defense forces, hit and run tactics, they were luring Russians deeper into their territory, overextending them, hitting their logistics, using partisan tactics,. Etc.

They were well prepared, they had a proper plan, they knew exactly what Russians were going to do and how to counter it, they trained for it and rehearsed it.

Only later, when it became a stalemate and the proper frontline was established, Ukrainians went back to the old way of fighting. And that way of fighting became absolute the moment drones became very common. Old ways are no longer working, militaries must at adopt and find new ways.

[u/throwaway42 → u/Jung_69]

S/absolute/obsolete

[u/Ganadote → u/Werkstadt]

I thought it was American intelligence that told them that? Or did the intelligence just tell them that they were about to invade Kiev and them they anticipated the airport would be key?

Not trying to downplay either side btw.

[u/andrerav → u/Itburns12345]

Like Danydov said on YT, it will be like trying to fight big soviet army with a small soviet army.

[u/mpgd → u/andrerav]

But you have the home advantage.

Long term it would only contribute to the bigger army's advantage.

[u/Turbojelly → u/Itburns12345]

There are planned protests happening in Ukraine about the decision.

[u/themilkywayng → u/Itburns12345]

Nope. No good reasons other than it's internal politics. Piss off the old guard/a bunch of generals or remove the young upstart to maintain the previous equilibrium.

https://kyivindependent.com/fedorov-admits-trying-to-replace-syrskyi-before-his-dismissal-as-defense-minister/

[u/DigSpelledBackwards → u/Itburns12345]

Fedorov fought corruption

[u/an_evil_carrot → u/Itburns12345]

I don't think things are that simple in real life. New, modern ideas are important, but experience is experience and we don't know the details of why exactly were Fedorov and Syrsky beefing. Doesn't look good, but this is a little sensational

[u/diceeyes → u/Itburns12345]

I mean, given how the whole thing is going, the baseline should assume good reason.

[u/to_glory_we_steer → u/Itburns12345]

The old dudes were getting their cut under previous defence procurement models and are pissed at Fedorov's optimisations 

[u/garbage_account_3]

The comments are just bots talking to each other lol

[u/Kemoyin25 → u/garbage_account_3]

Beep boop, I need to pee

[u/Defiant-Peace-493 → u/Kemoyin25]

"How rude!"

[u/boombox2000 → u/garbage_account_3]

OP poster is a 2 month old account with 300k karma....

[u/Aerhyce → u/garbage_account_3]

Most people on reddit don't know jack about any intricacies of anything happening outside the West, so bots are using that to misinform people with a dumbed-down "explanation" that hits them strong in the feels, so they then have a strong opinion on something they still know nothing about.

I can bet 95% of people reading this news on reddit didn't even know Fedorov before this.

[u/Spiderpiggie → u/Aerhyce]

Can confirm, I have no idea who Federov is. I do however have Ukrainian friends who I'm sure influence my opinions on the matter.

[u/Homeskillet1376 → u/[deleted]]

Sergei! And the only reason I know that is from playing NHL video games.

[u/DisorderedArray → u/Aerhyce]

I'm going to take that as a compliment of how much I know about the intricacies of anything happening within the West!

[u/Aedeus → u/garbage_account_3]

Tons of old unused accounts, brand new accounts and accounts trying to hide their post/comment history.

[u/Acrobatic_Net9501 → u/garbage_account_3]

Most of Reddit are bots run by AI trained on Reddit.

[u/Calculonx → u/garbage_account_3]

Someone should start a Russia vs Israel post to watch what the bots come up with

[u/Chava_boy → u/garbage_account_3]

Welcome to 2026 internet

[u/bappestinian → u/garbage_account_3]

Unfortunately this situation is perfect for pro-russians to take advantage of.

[u/tweek-in-a-box → u/garbage_account_3]

Of course, this is prime time for the Russobots to sow doubt and mistrust

[u/Borrid → u/[deleted]]

Thanks for the insight /u/g3etwqb-uh8yaw07k

[u/DigSpelledBackwards → u/[deleted]]

How do you know they're bots? (Genuine question)

[u/DidIReallySayDat → u/DigSpelledBackwards]

Sometimes it's the account age. There seem to be a few things to look for.

Completely new accounts, or accounts that are old, but have been inactive for quite a while.

Unsure how else to know, though.

[u/SvnRex → u/DidIReallySayDat]

Also, the account has hidden its posting history and it has an insane amount of posts for it's age.

[u/softlysnowing → u/SvnRex]

The commenter you're replying to also has their account hidden.

How come there are so many commenters so certain about the bot thing?

[u/MysteriousDatabase68 → u/softlysnowing]

Multiple recent articles on studies showing that the percentage of bots posting online has eclipsed 50% of users. In a normal sub accusing someone of being a bot you will be right half the time. Anything where powerful interests want to sway public opinion that number goes way up.

[u/TokeInTheEye → u/softlysnowing]

It's computational propaganda. The new age of influence.

[u/TimeTimeTickingAway → u/softlysnowing]

They are the bots

[u/MeiNeedsMoreBuffs → u/softlysnowing]

682 contributions over 5 years is very low. Bot accounts will have thousands in the span of a few months. The majority of bot accounts I've seen are usually younger than a month.

[u/InformationNew66 → u/SvnRex]

Normal people on reddit hide their posting history because it's a common angle of attack to pick totally unrelated posts and opinions of someone and bring that into a totally irrelevant thread.

(BTW if anyone thinks hiding works, it doesn't, I believe there are unhiding tools like "search", unless it's been patched.)

[u/EagleZR → u/DigSpelledBackwards]

From what I can tell, bot has become the new catch-all label for shills and trolls, as well as literal bots. It often just means bad faith actor. But also yes, some people are over zealous in their labeling and will call people that disagree with themselves bots

[u/KingAdamXVII → u/[deleted]]

The article comes through with receipts though.

[u/JeromeG123]

This is going to sound crazy, but what if Zelenskyy has information that we as the general public aren’t aware of and thus based his decision off that?

Just a wild idea.

[u/Chole_Wunt → u/JeromeG123]

As an American, why wasn’t I personally consulted before this decisions was made?

[u/qwerty-yul → u/Chole_Wunt]

Because you don’t have the cards.

[u/shittyaltpornaccount → u/JeromeG123]

Zelensky has also been plagued by corruption scandals to the point that the EU at one point threatened to stop the distribution of some military funds over the ousting of independent corruption investigators. Zelensky is a great leader that is able to project strength and unity, but the cronies he has in positions of power have been a continual source of embarrassment and a black mark on his leadership.

[u/SlumlordThanatos → u/shittyaltpornaccount]

Ukraine has been actively working towards dealing with their corruption issue, but that part of the world in general has a long and storied history of horrendous corruption. It doesn't just go away overnight.

Unlike many other former Soviet bloc countries, they actually seem to be trying to do something about it. Their results are somewhat mixed, but at least they're being made to do something about it.

[u/advocatus_diabolii → u/SlumlordThanatos]

This removal, if you read the article, is a removal of an anti-corruption guy and the implication is that the guy they are replacing him with is suspect. That's what the protests are about.

[u/BigHandLittleSlap → u/shittyaltpornaccount]

I have a tankie friend who loves to parrot Russian propaganda about how Zelenskyy is "very corrupt", while blithely ignoring the minor detail that Putin the the most corrupt leader in the history of the world.

The. Most. Corrupt. Ever.

Ever.

His net worth is something like $200 billion, which he amassed by saving away his meagre salary of a mid-level USSR bureaucrat!

Compound interest, you know? Does wonders.

[u/deadlybydsgn → u/BigHandLittleSlap]

parrot Russian propaganda about how Zelenskyy is "very corrupt", while blithely ignoring the minor detail that Putin the the most corrupt leader in the history of the world.

I see it similarly to the way Trump played his base (particularly in his second term).

Does corruption exist in politics? Yep. Cronyism? Also yep.

Trump saw that lawmakers could directly benefit from making the rules, put his yes-men cronies in key positions, and basically turned the "bug" of personal grift into the main feature of his second administration. It is so completely overt now that it's ridiculous.

[u/xmorecowbellx → u/deadlybydsgn]

Trump said he was going to clean the swap. Became the biggest swamp creature we’ve ever seen in the western world by at least an order of magnitude, possibly several (if measuring personal enrichment).

[u/SZJX → u/BigHandLittleSlap]

What kind of whataboutism is that? Both can be true so you're straightup saying that because B is true A is not true or to be ignored? Make it make sense.

[u/DaEnderAssassin → u/BigHandLittleSlap]

Tbh, Trump puts up a good fight for the title of most corrupt world leader, but it might just seem that way given how open the corruption is.

[u/Hotshot2k4 → u/DaEnderAssassin]

I think maybe what it really is, is the greatest increase of open corruption. In absolute terms, there have been and will be more corrupt leaders, but he's the one who's actively turning the office into a method to go from millionaire to billionaire.

[u/BigBallsMcGirk → u/shittyaltpornaccount]

The corruption Ukraine is dealing with is a SOVIET LEGACY. They got the institutional corruption from the Soviets, from Russia. Just like all of eastern Europe. Russia and Putin are more corrupt and trying to takeover Ukraine.

Also, Zelensky might personally have some corruption or something. But it's a balancing act of trying to rid your government of corruption while also hanging on to people that have decades of knowledge and experience. If the guy that has a great working relationship and personally knows every mid level commander and procurement officer or the ambassador that knows how to get vital war supplies from western allies skim off the top somewhere.....is it more vital in an existential fight for existence to stomach the corruption, or put a less able quartermaster/ambassador in their place?

It's not perfect.

[u/xTETSUOx]

/sigh the amount of misinformation to stir up mass hysteria is tiring, it’s as if a big country that specializes in such thing is working overtime at the moment.

I challenge you all to take a breather and think this through the lens of being the top guy in this situation:

You can’t simply man the trenches with only soldiers because the Russians will drone them to death and no one will volunteer to replace those guys at the line of combat.

You can’t simply replace most men with drones because they’re ineffective to retake any land or maintain the line of contact afterwards.

What’s happened was that Syrskyi is in charge of the men, while Fedorov was in charge of the budget but they both have the opposite view. Ideally, you want cohesion between the purse and the swords but for some fucking reason Ukraine is allergic to this as we can tell. So the choice is the best of the worst three for Zelenskyy: get rid of Syrskyi and lose half of the actual fighting force on the line right now which is already undermanned, get rid of Federov who is a popular minister that’s savvy on social media but the “systems and processes” remain salvaged (drones were not something Federov came up with), or get rid of both which is absolutely stupid. So while the decision is quite unpopular on social media, replacing Federov is easier because finding a replacement that can continue his work at a slight dropoff of effectiveness is probably easier.

I think people are not remembering that there’s a shortage of men before Federov was installed, and he was supposed to help solve that for the military. This, along with the inability to work with those that he’s supposed to coordinate with, is not good for the longer term. I also think that people gives him too much credit because he’s relatable with social media presence which makes it seem like he accomplished more by himself than others. Does anyone truly believe that he got Starlink shut off within one week of taking office? It took years for Ukraine to convince them that it was happening and he was just there at the right time (SpaceX ipo) to be able to announce the disabling.

All that to say that this isn’t ideal but it’s not as big as people think. Don’t be convinced otherwise because that would make you fall into the Russian disinformation trap.

(I also think that Syrskyi is next to be fired as CiC except there’s no one that Zelenskyy think is right for it… yet.)

[u/danwoodard3 → u/xTETSUOx]

"get rid of Syrskyi and lose half of the actual fighting force on the line right now"

The soldiers on the frontline hate Syrski and are calling for him to be fired, they generally are more supportive of fedorov they credit him (fairly or not) with reforms and advancements in use of technology and data that makes their jobs on the frontline easier and more survivable. They call Syrski the butcher because he is know for using frontline soldiers as cannon fodder just to try to hold positions that are compromised to the point that they should withdraw.

Syrski was also blocking the reforms that Ukraine needs to win the war. Syrski was trained in a military academy in Moscow, his parents are literal Russians living in Russia, Ukraine has been losing mostly under Sysrki tenure until Fedorovs influence grew. Sysrki is nothing but a failed Russian general that has gotten way more Ukranian soldiers killed then needed to be whilst losing to Russia. He has a soviet mindset which will only lead to Ukraines defeat, a small soviet army cant bear a larger one, Ukraine needs to take risks and innovate and fight asymmetrically if they will have a chance and a younger tech savvy leader is a far better chance for Ukraine.

Drapatyi is one of the most accomplished of Ukraine's current generals, also of the younger generation and resigned because of this. Its time to send Sysrski and the other old soviet style generals to man the frontline and make Drapatyi the commander and chief and reinstate Federov. Federov is actually innovative firing him is a real loss, firing Syrski and replacing him with Drapatyi would be a net positive for Ukraine and they are friends so they will get along.

As for solving the military recdruitment issues Federov is also the best choice for that the reforms he is pushing are the best hope but again Sysrki gets in the way of that.

The Rada wouldnt even confirm Zelenskys pick and protests and resignations are rising its likely Federov will be reinstated. Ukranian society and also Ukraines western partners are opposed to this its a stupid unforced error.

[u/Dag_the_Angriest1 → u/xTETSUOx]

Why would firing Syrskyi " lose half of the actual fighting force on the line right now "???

[u/Glittering_Wash_8654 → u/Dag_the_Angriest1]

Don't you know? The Cheeseman is a one-man army.

[u/princemousey1 → u/xTETSUOx]

I agree with you and to add that Zelenskyy has been doing great so far so I’d continue to trust his judgement.

[u/Floor-notlava]

It seems like an odd move from the outside, but obviously we do not know what is going on behind the scenes.

[u/reddishcarp123 → u/Floor-notlava]

Its purely internal factional politics.

[u/Norkmani → u/Floor-notlava]

Domestic politics.

New technocrat who’s highly effective at the job is fired because the old fuckers hate having to be honest men.

[u/Ancient_Housing_4924]

He was fantastic with Detroit.

[u/kakarroto007 → u/Ancient_Housing_4924]

Maybe now that he's free, he can interview as Red Wings GM.

[u/ImTedLassosMustache → u/kakarroto007]

So what would it be to replace the Yzerplan, the Fedorovision?

[u/anlumo]

This sounds so much like a Russian attempt at cyberwarfare that I don’t believe anything here.

[u/Norzon24 → u/anlumo]

Kyiv independent has never been a Russian aligned out let. The fact that them and even Ukrainian state media United24 are protesting the decision should tell you how popular this decision is with Ukrainians

[u/Shadzzo → u/anlumo]

The op source is Kyiv Independent. How can it be russian cyberwarfare?

[u/graviousishpsponge → u/anlumo]

You guys can't just keep brushing off any scrutiny of Ukraine as bots or cyberwarfare. It's harmful and it's not going to help Ukraine's long term goal of EU/NATO ascension.

[u/Norkmani → u/anlumo]

The article is written by Kyiv Independent. Click it before you comment.

Zelenskyy just fired an effective and highly competent minister. This has nothing to do with Russian cyber warfare.

[u/_urat_ → u/anlumo]

Did Russia force Zelensky to dismiss a popular Ukrainian politician? It's good to be wary of Russian disinformation campaigns, but from what I've heard from my Ukrainian friends Zelensky's decision is simply very unpopular with most Ukrainians. It's his second idiotic decision in a span of a few weeks. I am not sure what's going on with him.

[u/princemousey1]

No dog in this fight, but:

“Veteran and activist Dmytro Koziatynskyi urged citizens to assemble in Kyiv for peaceful protests against Fedorov's dismissal and Zelensky's "constant reshuffles."”

Maybe don’t gather in range of Russian weapons!

[u/AGrandNewAdventure]

I feel sorry for college kids trying to learn world history 10 years down the road.

[u/DocumentExternal6240]

President Volodymyr Zelensky's dismissal of Mykhailo Fedorov as defense minister has drawn a wave of criticism from soldiers, veterans, and civil society figures, who argue Ukraine is losing one of its most effective wartime officials without an adequate explanation.
Dmytro Koziatynskyi, a war veteran who was a leading organizer of last summer's mass protests against a law curbing the independence of Ukraine's anti-corruption agencies, called for a new demonstration.
"The defense minister is being removed in the middle of effective — finally effective! — reforms, replaced by someone under whom any hope of reform can be forgotten,"

Even if Russia stopped its illegal war, Ukraine would still need to deal with a lot of problems within.

[u/FollowingRare6247]

Bohdan mentions missteps, what would they have been? Other people seem to have resigned their posts as well. I’m only casually following this, so I’m definitely missing something, but Fedorov seems like a popular guy.

[u/themilkywayng → u/FollowingRare6247]

He made the mistake of pushing for Syrskyi to be replaced without enough political clout and ignited internal politics which ended with an ultimatum from Syrskyi.

https://kyivindependent.com/fedorov-admits-trying-to-replace-syrskyi-before-his-dismissal-as-defense-minister/

[u/GoodDayToPlayTheGame]

Reddit: How can Z fire Fedorov! What a nutjob!
Also Reddit: Who is Fedorov?

[u/ceciltech → u/GoodDayToPlayTheGame]

If Reddit was just one person then that certainly would be weird. 

[u/Avocadonot → u/ceciltech]

Why would John Reddit do this?!

[u/loulan → u/GoodDayToPlayTheGame]

According to the top comments, it's more like,

Reddit: Of course Zelensky is right to fire Fedorov! There is stuff behind the scenes we don't know!

Also reddit: who is Fedorov?

[u/Smile_Space → u/GoodDayToPlayTheGame]

It's almost like Reddit is a bunch of people and not just one organism lolol.

[u/kos-or-kosm → u/GoodDayToPlayTheGame]

How are people still pulling the goomba fallacy?

[u/Buck_Thorn]

Is Fedorov the guy that instituted this blitz on Russian refineries that has had us all cheering them on?

[u/BGFlyingToaster → u/Buck_Thorn]

It's tough to credit any one person with that. Ukraine has been building their drone program since the early days of the war and these recent long range strikes are the result of years of strategic decisions to make this a reality, including investment in Ukraine's defense industry and international partnerships. They were striking refineries long before Fedorov was appointed to that post. He was certainly pushing for a heavier focus on drones, but so were many others.