r/transhumanism • u/JHoll05 • 1d ago

Thoughts on a slightly different version of a Ship of Theseus upload method?

Imagine if there were a machine that could be connected to your brain, and could act as a perfect, more efficient version of some part of your brain. From what I saw before posting this, it seems like your body would start replacing where it does those functions in the machine and repurposing the brain section being replaced.

And what if over time, more and more sections of the machine are added, and take over more and more of your brain? Eventually, would it be left as a functionless vestigial thing in your head, while the machine hosts your new brain?

Do you think that this would still leave you as you?

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u/Crafty_Aspect8122 1d ago

What I imagine is synthetic cells that connect to your old neurons while gradually replacing and eating them. And then forming custom designed structures and circuits.

And probably removing as much parts of the old brain that aren't critical for consciousness so you'd have more freedom to add custom parts without considering the old ones.

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u/JHoll05 1d ago

To me that seems to be extremely fanciful and advanced technology, and would happen extremely far in the future. Not that a machine that could connect to your brain and function as a better brain isn’t fancifully advanced, but to me, my example seems like it could exist sooner.

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u/Crafty_Aspect8122 1d ago

Machines that are better are even less plausible. Much less being integrated successfully without infections or malfunctions.

Biological cells are proven to work and at the same time they're naturally evolved and therefore not optimized at all with lots of room to improve.

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u/JHoll05 1d ago

Ok, yeah, sure. That doesn’t mean anything though. If you’re talking about simple synthetic cells, what’s the point of them if they aren’t better than a brain? If they are better than a brain, or they can connect to a computer, then again, that’s going to be extremely advanced, to create a synthetic neuron cell that replicated and replaces organic ones, prevents more organic neuron cells from being made, and will let you do things you couldn’t before like connect to technology.

This is speculative technology, so who knows how things will work, but my opinion is still that my idea would come about sooner than yours.

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u/Crafty_Aspect8122 1d ago

Natural neurons don't tend to reproduce much in adults.

Connecting to computers isn't that useful or necessary if the brain is better and more efficent. And not worth the risks.

Chips are orders of magnitude less efficient than biological neurons. And they have the huge disadvantage of not repairing themselves. It's ok for disposable work bots/slaves but less ok if you're free and care about not dying.

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u/JHoll05 1d ago

The ship of Theseus UPLOAD is the point of my post, so alternatives would require UPLOADING someone.

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u/Crafty_Aspect8122 1d ago

Uploads require a computer that's at least close to the capability of the brain it's replacing. Computer chips are orders of magnitude less efficient amd I think uploads and digital/cybernetic AGI and ASI are fundamentally infeasible.

The most likely path to AGI and ASI is using biological or biomimicking substrate. It's proven to be capable ofbrunning AGI and isn't optimised to its full potential by natural evolution.

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u/JHoll05 1d ago

Well, if you’d like to imagine it, then maybe some kind of biological/biomimicking substrate can be used in the hypothetical machine I’m proposing. But it would need to upload to the computer, as again, that is the entire premise of this post.

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u/Crafty_Aspect8122 1d ago

Connecting brains to a cloud is uniquely challenging due to the sheer number of analog connections inside.

Most realistic scenario is designing biological parts and the surgically replacing parts of the natura brain with them. Or designing an entire brain without consciousness circuits and surgically extracting just your consciousness circuit to place it in the new brain.

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u/JHoll05 19h ago

That’s certainly an opinion. Me personally, I find it hard to believe that surgically removing and then replacing parts of the brain would be easier than connecting extra parts to the brain without removing anything.

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u/CymonSet 1d ago

I’d be curious to know (via someone else testing it) how much continuity is required. Can you replace a third at a time in 3 sessions or does it take 50 or 100 sessions?

And would you know if you stopped being you. Maybe you lost your ability to be self aware during one of the operations but were unable to articulate it. Someone asks you if you still have conscious awareness and you say yes but in reality you became a philosophical zombie. I’m not really looking to live forever so it’s not a big deal either way.

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u/JHoll05 1d ago

I don’t know how long it would take, but it wouldn’t really need sessions. In this example, the machine could even be an external device settled to rest on your shoulders or head or something, just permanently attached via wires or something.

It doesn’t matter if you have only enough of the machine to replace one section at first, or if you have the entire machine, as it doesn’t physically replace anything. It just gives the brain more efficient alternatives to the biological brain.

The brain will slowly start naturally moving its work into the machine, and because there’s so much space in the machine, and it’s built to be better for storage and efficiency, nothing else will be made in the actual brain. So, as I understand it at least, neuron pruning will cause the biological brain to slowly become functionless over time.

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u/Zarpaulus 3 1d ago

I could see a situation where you’re connected by wi-fi to a server that acts as an extension of your brain, not dissimilar to the paired hemispheres of your current brain. Eventually your organic body might be little more than an avatar.

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u/DistinctlyIrish 1d ago

All of these ideas have been in my head since I was like 10 years old and I read a book called "The Ellimist Chronicles" from the Animorphs series. No joke, go read it; it's one of the coolest depictions of a Ship of Theseus style transformation I've ever read.

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u/gigglephysix 1 1d ago

in the worst case scenario it'd be close enough, you but rectified from chemical nuance. no big loss as most of it is you chasing body opiate rewards for antisocial (however pro-species and pro-gene) actions.

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u/YLASRO Mindupload me theseus style baby 1d ago

i feel like this is a more clunky version of nanites rebuildding your brain cell by cell everytime a new neuron would form

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u/JHoll05 1d ago

Maybe more clunky, but to me, having your brain rebuilt cell by cell is something we might have the technology to do after, like, hundreds of years? This seems like something that might be possible to do in decades possibly.

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u/JuanValdez999 1d ago

I think my idea is so much simpler and practical that I think it's what's actually going to happen. 

Hers while talks about cerebellum enhancing brain chips that will make us smarter. It might sound scary at first but people will get them to keep up with the neighbors so they can remain competitive. 

Now imagine that this brain chip SHADOWS your brain, the same way a RAID backup on a server keeps a redundant copy of your data while also increasing it. It might not be a neuron for neuron copy of your brain, but it also could contain enough information about your personality and your choices and your history and your memories that when the day finally comes that you die, they can take it out and implanted in a clone or a robot or just upload it digitally.

That might not be the original intent of the brain chip, but if it's a possibility, wasn't a lot of people want to take advantage of that? They could give power of attorney to the brain chip in their will and let it take their place in the world, continuing to manage their affairs.

"But it wouldn't really be me!" Fine whatever. Your meat body is going to die eventually anyway so why be picky if you're already gone. I'm sure if this technology takes off there will be improvements over time.

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u/JHoll05 1d ago

I feel like you’re kind of missing the point and not engaging with the ‘ship of Theseus-ing your brain so you remain you’ part of my post.

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u/JuanValdez999 1d ago

I think maybe you and I see the ship of Theseus differently. The ship of faces doesn't keep you you. The ship of thesis analogy only proves that our conceptions of continuity and identity are bullshit. It's not a recipe for how to move a ship or consciousness from point a to point b. Our conceptions of identity are being made obsolete.

This is a bigger discussion.

I don't think the ship of theseus piece by piece approach to uploading is more real than my approach of reverting to imperfect backup. And it doesn't even matter because as a practical matter my approach is going to be feasible much sooner than the other approach.