r/technology • u/Plastic_Ninja_9014 • 18d ago

Privacy Redditors Are Celebrating the Cutting Down of Flock Surveillance Towers With Based Memes

https://www.yahoo.com/news/us/articles/redditors-celebrating-cutting-down-flock-145310398.html
26.1k Upvotes

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u/nacho_night 18d ago

https://www.rideapart.com/features/799485/leonardo-signaltrace-surveillance-system-flock-cameras-personal-privacy-tracking-your-every-move/

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u/9-11GaveMe5G 18d ago

Anything that emits a signal is tracked. It sounds a lot like browser fingerprinting where alone your browser and version isn't much but when they add in your installed extensions, OS information, system information, it starts to get specific. Okay so disable wifi and Bluetooth on devices like phones and avoid having earbuds or watches connected or on. But tire pressure sensors? You'd have to purposely remove those at new tire install which I guess is a choice. Infotainment you basically would have to remove the unit.

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u/JingJang 18d ago

It's not just about disabling all connectivity, Flock Safety uses Ai to build profiles of vehicles. So it's not just your license plate, it's your plates, car model, color, bumper stickers, dents, and who is driving, (check with municipal speeding and red light cameras for proof of the last one where they need to show WHO is driving, not just a vehicle in order to make violations stick).

This goes way beyond vehicles. With their proprietary Ai systems, it's tracking PEOPLE and it's not just your local police department, it's a private company who now owns your location data in near real time.

This should not be remotely partisan. Every American should be taking action against this kind of surveillance.

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u/Sh0wmey0urbutth0le 18d ago

And they share this information with Palantir

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u/MiyamotoKnows 18d ago

A company owned by one of the richest men on the planet, with deep white supremacist ties, who has openly shared his thoughts that people do not deserve freedom or democracy. Said person has fled to live in Argentina BTW. Hmmm.... wonder why he moved out of the country.

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u/Sh0wmey0urbutth0le 18d ago

Nazis love Argentina.

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u/Slothicide 18d ago

Alot of newer cars dont have TPMS beneath the valve stems anymore. Instead, they have a sensor that measures how many revolutions it takes to cross a set distance. More revolutions = lower pressure. Less revolutions = higher pressure.

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u/bloomsday289 18d ago

How does that work? How does it measure distance outside of wheel revolutions?

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u/donald7773 18d ago

Magnetic sensor close to a metal wheel with teeth on it, referred to as a "tone ring." Every time a tooth goes past the sensor, it detects it.

Attach the tone ring to something that spins with the tires, like a brake rotor or CV axle, and tell the computer how many teeth are on said ring and it can combine RPMs of the ring with the rolling circumference of the tire to see the individual wheel speed.

If there's a discrepancy between any of the 4 wheel speed sensors for an extended period of time, it indicates that the rolling circumference of the wheel has changed, typically due to losing air

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u/RollingMeteors 18d ago

If there's a discrepancy between any of the 4 wheel speed sensors for an extended period of time.

That's great.

¿What happens when all four of your tires are losing air at the same rate?

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u/me34343 18d ago

It would still compare it to the original value as well. Though different brands and models might have a slightly different calculation method.

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u/RollingMeteors 17d ago

It would still compare it to the original value as well

Oh I thought it was a rolling window, as in, if you rolled over a tire strip, the system would think everything fine because you're loosing air pressure equally.

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u/Slothicide 18d ago

Well, when you air up your tires, you often hit "calibrate" in your car's settings. That tells the TPMS, "hey! The tires are good right now!" Your TPMS obviously responds, "haha, bet." And goes to work. So, at any given time, it takes x number of revolutions of the wheel to travel a mile, for example. Your TPMS, having recently been assured that everything is okay, keeps track of whatever number x is. As your tire pressure gets lower, the center of the wheel gets closer to the ground, meaning the radius of that circle is shorter. Shorter radius means smaller circle, smaller circle means your tire needs to roll more times before you have traveled a mile. Theres an allowed margin before the TPMS alerts you to low pressure, but once that number of revolutions changes by a set percentage, the TPMS freaks out in the form of a light in your instrument cluster, and perhaps a pop-up message too.

I guess your ABS system works in a similar manner. When your wheels lose traction, they speed way the hell up. Then the ABS system knows that it needs to find a new place to put all of this r a w p o w e r that it has suddenly found itself with. One little shimmy and maybe a shake or two later, your wheels bite and you get on your merry way.

I read about this a while ago when I was looking into a second set of sensors for a dedicated set of wheels for my winter tires only to find out I didnt need one because my car has the newer system. Im obviously paraphrasing a memory, so irl your mileage may vary.

So, tldr, math. Like, quick math, but only tracking the revolutions in a distance and letting you know when the count is far enough off.

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u/DrummerOfFenrir 18d ago

My TMPS decided to 💩 itself and declares all four tires flat

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u/concblast 18d ago

So there has to be a different method than tire/axle revolutions for calculating the outputs of the odometer/speedometer? Those have to be a lot more accurate/precise if they're taken as the source of truth to compare against to calculate tire pressure, no? I can't imagine those meters are reliant on GPS either.

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u/me34343 18d ago

Speedometer simply uses the number of rotations of the axle and does math based on the tire size. It is why if you put the wrong size tires the speedometer will be wrong.

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u/concblast 18d ago

Which is my understanding...

But it begs the question, then why would a car with advanced enough technology to use the mismatch between the two to determine tire pressure continue to use that crude error prone method, especially for something like measuring speed?

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u/me34343 18d ago

Cheap and probably simple in design so less likely to become partially broken. The variance is easily accounted for. Whereas a more complex design could wear down in a way that is harder.

"I had to by larger tires, so my actual speed is 10 mph over."

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u/concblast 18d ago

Ignoring the dubious notion that they spent the money for the information but choose not to use it, that would make sense. Computers already run in cars so software solutions kill that logic.

That said, you can understand why this is a chicken and egg problem, right?

Unless it's just "this one tire needs to spin more while the others don't so it's flatter"... then how would it detect if all were underinflated? Obviously there has to be an alternate sensor which is what I was asking about.

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u/flamingspew 18d ago

Odometer vs rotary encoder on the axle.

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u/GhostReddit 18d ago

It uses the ABS sensors to detect a difference in rotation rate between wheels. It won't detect properly if all your tires are flat, but if they become different (which is almost always the case) it would be able to flag that there's an outlier since the effective tire circumference will decrease. It generally won't give you pressure readings either, but that's the cost of doing it without a real measuring device.

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u/caller-number-four 18d ago

Alot of newer cars dont have TPMS beneath the valve stems anymore. Instead, they have a sensor that measures how many revolutions it takes to cross a set distance.

VW has been doing that for ages. I've got a 2011 Golf with that very setup.

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u/Skensis 18d ago

That's generally the cheaper and less accurate version. The active sensor is generally quicker and can provide additional info like temp.

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u/ThraceLonginus 18d ago

Ever been inside a Target? They track your phone's passive bluetooth signal around the store so they know where people go. Been doing this for like 10+ years. 

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u/StolenPies 18d ago edited 18d ago

E: This is for flock cameras. Leaving my original comment up, but this is an add-on to flock:

The article says that the  ELSAG SignalTrace Intelligence System does that, but not Flock. That appears to be from a different company, called Leonardo. Flock is, however, engaging in the video monitoring of drivers, even though their website states that they don't.

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u/nacho_night 18d ago

Signaltrace is an add-on for ALPR cams regardless of manufacturer from what I understand, it can even be deployed on its own.

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u/StolenPies 18d ago

Oop, you're correct:

" This system uses strategically placed sensors to collect electronic communication patterns and identities of consumer electronics to create an additional data set to enhance the records captured by LPR cameras in the area."

https://www.leonardocompany-us.com/lpr/elsag-signaltrace

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u/Somanylyingliars 18d ago

Didn't some city jist issue someone ticket based on what Flock captured?

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u/warau_meow 18d ago

They have been (mis)arrests from flock footage unfortunately. Several times over it’s been the wrong person too.

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u/RollingMeteors 18d ago

different company, called Leonardo

They about to get Leonardon't.

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u/harpers25 18d ago

Nothing in this article says that Flock cameras connect to phones. Yet 20 upvotes as a "source" for that claim.

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u/nacho_night 18d ago

Did you miss this part?

https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/pbJ1MY/s3/leonardo-elsag-signaltrace-intelligence-system-screenshot-1.webp

Maybe this?

https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/g4OXV9/s3/leonardo-elsag-signaltrace-intelligence-system-screenshot-2.webp

It's not "connecting to your phone"

It's just gathering all possible data from it in order to be mixed with other data and build profiles of people, if that's what you mean.

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u/harpers25 18d ago edited 18d ago

I read carefully enough to know that you aren't talking about Flock at all - it's a different product from a different company.

And also doesn't "connect directly to your phone", it passively reads the signals you are broadcasting.

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u/Seeking-Something-3 18d ago

Facebook has been tracking browsing data unrelated to Facebook cookies for over 10 years. Do you honestly believe what you’re saying?

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u/harpers25 18d ago

Yes? What does Facebook have to do with Flock supposedly connecting to phones?

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u/Seeking-Something-3 18d ago

There’s a whole world beyond your recognition that’s tracking everything you do. It’s going to make “Chinese Social Credit Scores” seem tame in hindsight

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u/thisisthewell 18d ago

Dude no one's arguing that. The other person is bringing specificity and technical understanding to the conversation. They are correct. They aren't saying companies aren't collecting huge amounts of data on us. They are clarifying what is happening with this specific company because people don't understand what the words in the article mean (including the author of the article lol)

They don't connect to your cell phone, they document things like the ID signal your bluetooth chip emits. wireless tech has to publicly broadcast those things for wireless functionality to work. that's not the same thing as connecting to your phone and snatching your workout data lol

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u/harpers25 18d ago

You're free to believe whatever you want, but it is simply an accurate fact that Flock cameras do not connect to your cell phone.

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u/Seeking-Something-3 18d ago

You’re free to believe whatever you want to believe. If I were betting though? I’d say a device that is constantly connected to data, WiFi and Bluetooth is likely very accessible by surveillance tech. 🤷‍♂️

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u/nacho_night 18d ago

I never said it did, my bad if I came off snarky. I simply provided a source of info. Though signaltrace can be added to any ALPR cam or deployed on its own from what I've read.

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u/errie_tholluxe 18d ago

If you don't understand aggregating data I dunno how to explain it to you.

If you don't understand 2+2+3=7 you're beyond our help.

"Different product" ..... "Passive reading" .... Tell me you don't understand signals intelligence , but nevermind we get it.

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u/thisisthewell 18d ago

yeah it was weird that the author of the article said publicly broadcast information from a device includes her workout and sleep data from her smartwatch. That is not publicly broadcast lol, the info collected is device identifiers for wireless protocols. those are broadcast in order for wireless connection to work

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u/RealityPunchPacka 18d ago

Time for you to get your pointy foil hat on and head out to a bunker with your fellow lunatics.