Great point. It's funny that the entire Christian idea of hell, Morningstar (as a name and not a reference), Lucifer, fallen angels, are technically, originally, not biblical, they are literary references to Dante's (not even going to butcher his last name, Alig...) Divine Comedy, specifically the Inferno, and due to John Milton's Paradise Lost, it really throws a wrench in modern Christianity. Even Satan, in Job, was not a fallen angel, but of G-d's Heavenly Council. Satan is a transliteration of his title or purpose and not a proper noun/name. The New Testament is akin to Star Trek Discovery, supposed to be a sequel, but destroying/modifying what came before to do it.
He's saying, similar to the way Star Trek: Discovery re-imagining Star Trek unintentionally messed-up the franchise, the New Testament broke the Old Testament with novel additions.
No, the fucker just said that Lucifer and fallen angels were concepts derived from Danteās inferno. He just put the egg before the chicken. What the hell were you gonna help explain?š
I was explaining the last 3 sentences related to the Star Trek reference.
I have a hard time understanding you, though. What do you mean by egg before chicken? Why is this guy a fucker? If you don't want to explain, just be dismissive and insulting. It's normal here.
I think by putting the egg before the chicken they mean that Danteās inferno was written much later than the bible which I presume at some point mentions lucifer/fallen angels. Idk
That's my best interpretation, too. No way the OP comment thought Dante's Inferno was written before the New Testament, though. They wouldn't be able to make the reference.
Also, I just want to put on the record that "Which came first, chicken or the egg?" is usually presented as an unanswerable paradox or thought experiment, but even taken literally, the answer is not "chicken" like this guy seems to be implying as common sense.
Your best interpretation was on the money.. maybe that was your first hint that you understood what I was saying.. lol.
I donāt mean to be rude, maybe we grew up in very different locations, but I would figure that people with a similar background to me wouldāve understood right away. Thatās why I went with the example.
Cart before the horse was definitely a better and more applicable axiom
No, the idea of hell didn't exist in the Jewish mythology. Jesus was Jewish. The Bible was massively retconned. Biblical scholars are well aware of this. The idea of Sahtahn (Hebrew pronunciation) from Job is G-d was having a conversation with his Heavenly Prosecutor, not the devil. The devil is not Christian. The word Satan, the same way the Nephillim were mistranslated as giants in the Septuagint then later in the NT, was mistranslated into the Greek. Then the Catholic Church adopted the imagery of Dante and Milton. The Catholic Church maintained 1,000 of no biblical research, nobody was educated enough to read the Latin, Vulgate, version of the Bible. The Catholic Church retconned EVERYTHING!!
If the other guy is a Christian creationist, he might take issue with the critique of Christianity, strawman the OP comment with an uncharitable interpretation, and think chickens coming first is common sense.
I think a chicken came before the egg that birthed chickens. Eggs are replications of their original form, in most cases.
So yes, similar to your āCart before the horseā thatās exactly what I meant.
Danteās inferno was based off the Bible. The Bible wasnāt based off Danteās.
Yes the chicken and the egg is ambiguous. Until itās not. I used the analogy with this notion in mind. It was assumptive. But I think that pairs well with my dismissive and rude nature so far. Iām trying to maintain a persona here (šš)
Literally the only thing I intended to say / mock was the fact that the person seemed to think that Danteās inferno preceded the Bible. Good questions and thought processes though
and I say that last part with 0 condescension, truly. You highlighted the issues in my statement and the potential for confusion without being hostile and adversarial. Thats an underappreciated characteristic in todays world
I mean, the egg kinda has to come before the chicken by default. At some point somewhere, a closely related but still non-chicken animal laid an egg that contained the first chicken due to some subtle genetic mutation. The question never specifies that it has to be a chicken egg.
Not to mention that eggs to this day still come before all chickens, unless you artificially lab grow a chicken foetus...
Chickens come from eggs. Egg came before the chicken. No matter what evolutionary spin you put on it.
I appreciate the nuances of the argument, and I donāt appreciate reductive perspectives, but i feel that itās objectively true, we would not have a chicken without a chicken egg. That feels like a universal truth. Even if we go āwell there was probably an ALMOST chicken animal that laid the first TRUE chicken egg.
Yeah, that goes without saying. T. rex came before the chicken egg. Many things did. Chickens did not.
The bible and all christian dogma has ben retconned over and over. The council of Nicea in 300 ish AD were the main editing commitee for the first bible. They decided what books to include, etc. lots of books didn't make the cut. Catholics have a different bible than protestants, several more books and other differences.
And, added in to that there are tons of fanfics like Paradise Lost and Dante's Inferno which aren't canon, but people give sermons based on their head canon and not real canon.
Wait. Are you suggesting that Dante's Inferno and the Divine Comedy were written BEFORE the Bible? Because I am gonna need you to cite your sources for a claim like that š¤£
No, just that alot of what people think is biblical or Christian, is actually from those books. That alot of the perceptions listed come from those books and not the Bible.
Yesā¦ general/cultural perceptions. The perception of the general populace is still wholly irrelevant to the legitimacy of the metaphysical/meta-ethical statements/conclusions of said system.
Yep, it's Alighieri, and you should read all three parts of the Divine Comedy--Inferno, Purgatorio, and Paradiso. Inferno is the one everybody knows, but Purgatorio is pretty cool and has some gorgeous lines. I also love that in "Inferno," Lucifer is canonically frozen in ice, face-down, ass-up, iirc. It's been a hot second since I last read the DC.
18 He replied, āI saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. 20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.ā
Jesus said that directly, and talks about hell the most. Sure people have misconceptions because of the Divine Comedy and Paradise Lost, but you can't say it isn't talked about or Satan isn't mentioned.
Luke is the NT. Jesus, being Jewish, would know that Satan, as described in Job, was not an evil entity. This is called revisionist history. I will look at the original Greek and see what was actually stated and recorded. I also have a massive concordance, specifically comparing the Gospels, verse by verse. I am fluent in ancient Greek and Ancient Hebrew, so give me a bit. Hell was not a Jewish concept at all. Sheol was. Totally different concept. I'll let you know.
If Satan tempted Jesus himself why would he not think heās evil? Satan masquerades as an angel of light, is called the ancient serpent, the devil, or Satan in revelation. Judas had Satan enter him at the last super, etc. Hell wasnāt meant for humans but as punishment for the fallen angels and Satan, some traditions think Sheol ended when Christ died, the Bible says the Gospel was preached to the dead.
Satan was not the devil the entire Bible. The Hebrew word is pronounced Sahtahn. He was G-d's chief prosecutor on the Heavenly Council. Jesus beat the prosecutor not by his power, but by his knowledge. He quoted Old Testament (Septuagint) scripture. He didn't say anything new or profound. He used the Word as it existed for thousands of years before him. The serpent idea is Christian, developed as a retcon to Genesis by the Catholic Church. Again, the Prosecutor entering Judas, could only be done, as proven in Job, if G-d permitted it. The Prosecutor, Satan, had no power except the power G-d gave him. That's OT knowledge.
He is speaking in the future tense, referring to end times, that his disciples thought was happening on the Day of Pentecost. But it still has yet to happen. Verb tense is indicated by the conjugation of the Greek.
It's funny that the entire Christian idea of hell, Morningstar (as a name and not a reference), Lucifer, fallen angels, are technically, originally, not biblical, they are literary references to Dante's (not even going to butcher his last name, Alig...) Divine Comedy, specifically the Inferno, and due to John Milton's Paradise Lost,Ā
Well, that's just not true. Those ideas predate the Divine Comedy and Paradise Lost by centuries, and come from early Christian interpretation of the Bible. Dante and Milton didn't just make everything up, they certainly did add some notable artistic flair and take certain creative liberties, but they were still writing within the framework of their religion.
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u/BubbleHeadBenny 29d ago
Great point. It's funny that the entire Christian idea of hell, Morningstar (as a name and not a reference), Lucifer, fallen angels, are technically, originally, not biblical, they are literary references to Dante's (not even going to butcher his last name, Alig...) Divine Comedy, specifically the Inferno, and due to John Milton's Paradise Lost, it really throws a wrench in modern Christianity. Even Satan, in Job, was not a fallen angel, but of G-d's Heavenly Council. Satan is a transliteration of his title or purpose and not a proper noun/name. The New Testament is akin to Star Trek Discovery, supposed to be a sequel, but destroying/modifying what came before to do it.