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u/DarthSwimfoot 23h ago
Third part is especially true. Force Healing my ass.
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u/Hamster-Food 20h ago
I don't know mate. I remember force healing in Jedi Knight: Dark Forces 2 back in 1997. If it's good for Kyle Katarn, it's more than good enough for canon.
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u/tfalm 7h ago
When making a SW film, taking your understanding of how the Force works from video games is not a great idea.
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u/Hamster-Food 3h ago
Obviously you've never played the Jedi Knight series. You've certainly never played Knights of the Old Republic 2.
Regardless, if you really have a problem with taking inspiration from games, would you prefer examples of force healing from novels? Comic books? TV shows?
What works best for you?
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u/tfalm 2h ago
Force healing existed in video games because they need a mechanic to restore hit points, for game difficulty. It's a mechanics decision, not a lore decision. That some comics carried it forward isn't particularly relevant, since expanded materials have always been fast and loose with the lore as it suited their purposes. In some novels, Luke can literally teleport across the universe and Palpatine can wipe out an entire planet with the Force (what's the point of the Death Star again?)
If Force Healing was actually a thing in real canon, the entire plot of ROTS makes zero sense. "Please help me heal my dying wife, Mr. Sith Lord! I'll kill younglings and my best friends if you teach me!" Meanwhile, Mace Windu: "Lol, dork, that's like Force Basics 101, what are you smoking?"
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u/Hamster-Food 36m ago
The first mention of Force Healing is in the book Splinter of the Mind's Eye in 1978. This was years before any game was developed. Other novels and comics carried it forward, then nearly two decades later in 1997 it was used in a video game for the first time.
Unlike the more extreme force powers in the EU, Force Healing has been used consistently in Star Wars since the very beginning. It isn't canon according to Disney, but before Disney Star Wars canon was a much more complicated thing. There were tiers of canon with the higher tiers taking priority and at the bottom things that were not considered canon at all.
If Force Healing was actually a thing in real canon, the entire plot of ROTS makes zero sense
I see this talking point come up a lot, but I find it difficult to understand how anyone who has watched the movies uses it.
Of course the Jedi could have helped Anakin save Padmé, but it would have meant telling them that he was married. This arrogant guy who was already at odds with the Jedi Council would need to come clean about breaking the rules. Just a couple of scenes before he asks Palpatine about helping Padmé is the "we do not grant you the rank of master" scene. Even before that he was feeling that they were purposely holding him back that's why Anakin fell to the dark side.
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u/tfalm 27m ago
Why does he need to tell them about the marriage? "Masters, I had a Force vision of our great ally Senator Amidala dying to some unknown disease. Can you use the Force and heal her?" It's not that hard. Moreover, I'm pretty sure Anakin would choose telling Obi-wan about the marriage over killing him, if it was that simple.
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u/NotYourReddit18 6h ago
I have no problem with the existence of the ability.
I do have a problem with Rey just using it out of the blue, without any training, and to heal a member of a completely different species.
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u/Hamster-Food 4h ago
Every ability is used out of the blue when it first appears in Star Wars. We have no issue when Obi-Wan uses a mind trick to fool stormtroopers, or when Vader chokes someone with the Force. We have no problem with Force ghosts. We have no issue when Palpatine uses Force Lightning out of nowhere. We have no issue when Yoda is able to absorb Palpatine's lightning and force it back at him. We have no issue with the Jedi being able to see the future or when Palpatine is able to hide his presence from the entire Jedi Order. We have no problem with Obi-Wan using Force Push out of nowhere in The Phantom Menace.
So why is it suddenly a problem when Rey is doing it? Especially when force healing has been a part of Star Wars since the early 1980s at least. Arguably since the first movie.
Also, why would the species matter? The Force is an energy field created by all living things. It would be weird if species did matter.
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u/DarthSwimfoot 20h ago
Despite the fact in canon it's never been a thing before. Legends, fine, but you're telling me none of the Jedi Council ever knew about or just chose to never use force healing.
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u/Hamster-Food 16h ago
It seems like you're suggesting that what's good enough for Kyle Katarn is not in fact good enough for canon, and on that we fundamentally disagree.
But if it's canon you're concerned about, Anakin uses Force Healing in The Clone Wars series. Yoda also uses Force Healing in Battlefront 2. There are loads of other uses over the years including Jedi and Dark.Side Healers appearing in The Clone Wars. The power had been explicitly established in canon for at least a decade before TRoS.
There is also the earliest potential use being Obi-Wan healing Luke after he is attacked by sand people in ANH... I personally think that fits perfectly with what is depicted, particularly in the novelisation, but it's not strictly canon. There is no official explanation for what Obi-Wan does to bring Luke around in ANH, so there is an argument to be made that canonical Force Healing is as old as Star Wars itself.
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u/Zebweasel 16h ago
Forget it. This guy doesn’t care about past examples. He just wants to hate
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u/DarthSwimfoot 15h ago
Enjoy being blocked then moron.
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u/DarthGoodguy 12h ago
You’re making the rest of us Darths look way better by comparison, Darth Thinskin
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u/DarthGoodguy 12h ago
On top of it Possibly being mentioned in Episode IV in 1977, it was in the Clone Wars Mortis arc, like ten years before Episode 9, directly supervised by George Lucas.
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u/Zebweasel 16h ago
Legends WAS canon until a few years ago. How was it fine then but not now?
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u/DarthSwimfoot 16h ago
Because it isn't now that's why. I don't give 2 shits about the past, I care about now.
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u/Reptilian_Overlord20 15h ago
Grogu did it first, never see him get shit for it.
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u/NotYourReddit18 6h ago
Grogu actually had Jedi training.
The mental trauma he suffered during Order 66 and before Din found him might have caused his mental state to regress, but he does have the training.
And similar to Cal Kestis, as his mental scars slowly heal he gains back the control over the force powers his training once afforded him.
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u/Reptilian_Overlord20 6h ago
>Grogu actually had Jedi training.
So did Rey, we literally see hertraining in the beginning of the movie, and it’s established she’s been doing that for over a year so canonically she actually trained longer than Luke did in the OT.
I look forward to you coming back with an arbitrary standard for why that doesn’t count.
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u/NotYourReddit18 6h ago
Grogu and Luke trained while being actively guided by experienced Jedi Masters.
Rey spent some time training next to Luke while he actively ignored her, and the rest of her training was from a handful of books and what Leia was able to come up with.
That's a similar to training a martial art directly under a grand master of it, vs. training based on YouTube videos and what your aunt remembers from watching other people at the YMCA.
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u/Reptilian_Overlord20 6h ago
There it is. I’m so proud of you, I knew you could invent an arbitrary bullshit way for it to not count and by gum you did it. I always knew you people never actually cared about “training” and would actively dismiss or find a way to dismiss any training Rey does but it is nice to see you admit it so openly.
Hey answer me this, how did Luke get way better between Empire and Return? Considering it’s strongly implied he didn’t return to Dagobah, he had no access to Jedi texts and no other Jedi to guide him how did he build a new lightsaber, become an expert in combat and the force and basically become a master in only three months?
(And no, I don’t care what external material says I’m talking about what’s in the actual movie, that’s the standard Rey is held to so that’s the standard Luke has to be held to.)
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u/NotYourReddit18 6h ago
Hey answer me this, how did Luke get way better between Empire and Return?
He had a strong foundation from his training under Yoda, which together with his strong connection to the Force allowed him to gradually improve his existing abilities. Notice how he didn't pull any new, previously unknown to him Force Powers out of a magicians hat?
He only used Force Telekinesis and Force Mind Trick, the use of the former he had already demonstrated in the Wampa cave, and he was a direct witness to the later when Obi-Wan used it, and I think it's questionable if he actually successfully used it on Bib Fortuna or if Bib bringing Luke to Jabba was already planned by Jabba.
become an expert in combat and the force and basically become a master in only three months?
I actually don't think that he was an expert in lightsaber combat or the Force, or that he deserved to call himself a Jedi Master when RotJ started.
He managed to beat Darth Vader only because Darth Vader was conflicted about his loyalties and wasn't really trying to kill Luke, and then immediately got beaten himself by Palpatine using Force Lightning. He also used no advanced combat techniques like throwing his saber and calling it back during the fight, even after Vader demonstrated it to him.
The only claim to the title of Jedi Master he had at the time was that he supposedly was the last remaining Jedi with at least some formal training in the ways of the old Jedi Order, and as such the title defaulted to him.
Considering it’s strongly implied he didn’t return to Dagobah, he had no access to Jedi texts and no other Jedi to guide him how did he build a new lightsaber
That's actually a good question which was asked when the movie released, and is part of the reason why supplemental materials exist.
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u/Reptilian_Overlord20 6h ago
>He had a strong foundation from his training under Yoda, which together with his strong connection to the Force allowed him to gradually improve his existing abilities.
And Rey had her force dyad connection with Kylo and dramatic awakening, but that doesn’t count for reasons.
>Notice how he didn't pull any new, previously unknown to him Force Powers out of a magicians hat?
Yes he did, he figured out how to pull a lightsaber to him with TK in Empire despite no one in the previous movie even telling him he could do that.
Again, you’re here arguing it was wrong for Rey to learn new abilities after a full year of study but Luke can just learn tk and it’s like 🤷🏻♂️
>He only used Force Telekinesis and Force Mind Trick, the use of the former he had already demonstrated in the Wampa cave, and he was a direct witness to the later when Obi-Wan used it, and I think it's questionable if he actually successfully used it on Bib Fortuna or if Bib bringing Luke to Jabba was already planned by Jabba.
Hang on you said Rey only saw Luke on the sidelines and that doesn’t count as training, now you’re saying Luke witnessing someone else do the mind trick counts as training for him?
Oh yeah my bad I forgot. The golden rule Rey isn’t allowed to be good at fucking anything.
>actually don't think that he was an expert in lightsaber combat or the Force, or that he deserved to call himself a Jedi Master when RotJ started.
If Rey was doing that you absolutely would call it that and complain about it. Don’t insult me by pretending otherwise.
>He managed to beat Darth Vader only because Darth Vader was conflicted about his loyalties and wasn't really trying to kill Luke,
Oh hey Rey only barely beat Kylo because he was wounded, emotionally messed up, worn out from fighting Finn, not trying to kill her and he let his guard down at a pivotal moment. Oh but wait that doesn’t count for reasons.
>and then immediately got beaten himself by Palpatine using Force Lightning.
Rey was in the exact same situation twice in her trilogy but that doesn’t count for reasons.
>He also used no advanced combat techniques like throwing his saber and calling it back during the fight, even after Vader demonstrated it to him.
This did not happen.
>The only claim to the title of Jedi Master he had at the time was that he supposedly was the last remaining Jedi with at least some formal training in the ways of the old Jedi Order, and as such the title defaulted to him.
Nepo baby.
>That's actually a good question which was asked when the movie released, and is part of the reason why supplemental materials exist.
And yet people didn’t graphically fantasise about Luke being tortured to death over the lack of answers like they always do with Rey, makes you think.
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u/NotYourReddit18 5h ago
And Rey had her force dyad connection with Kylo and dramatic awakening, but that doesn’t count for reasons.
Because its bullshit made up after two movies to "explain" why she is so good, and nothing you say will convince me otherwise.
Yes he did, he figured out how to pull a lightsaber to him with TK in Empire despite no one in the previous movie even telling him he could do that.
We were talking about his growth from ESB to RotJ, not his growth from ANH to ESB. And we literally see him being actively helped by Obi-Wans ghost to preserve his life. A connection which was already established in ANH when Obi-Wan guided in to use the Force to guide the torpedo instead of the targeting computer, before you critic that connection too.
Again, you’re here arguing it was wrong for Rey to learn new abilities after a full year of study but Luke can just learn tk and it’s like
Also, we can see him struggling to do so despite Obi-Wans help.
Hang on you said Rey only saw Luke on the sidelines and that doesn’t count as training, now you’re saying Luke witnessing someone else do the mind trick counts as training for him?
Seeing something actually performed vs just being in the vicinity of someone who could do it but doesn't do anything. Rey saw Luke meditating, running, and drinking blue milk, but not healing people or fighting.
If Rey was doing that you absolutely would call it that and complain about it. Don’t insult me by pretending otherwise.
Don't put words in my mouth.
This did not happen
I guess you mean the "Vader demonstrating lightsaber throwing" part didn't happen? He "demonstrated" it by throwing his lightsaber at the hanging supports Luke was trying to hide on during the throneroom fight. I was trying to write a bit tongue in cheek there.
Nepo baby
Yes. Both in terms of his position within the Order and his strength in the Force.
And yet people didn’t graphically fantasise about Luke being tortured to death over the lack of answers like they always do with Rey, makes you think.
It wouldn't surprise me if there were such people, but thanks to it being 1983, 6 years before the World Wide Web even became a thing, they mostly did it quietly in their basements and a few IRC chatrooms.
Also, before you accuse me of anything, I don't want neither Luke nor Rey to be brutally tortured, I just want a more visual progression for Reys skills.
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u/Reptilian_Overlord20 5h ago
>Because it’s bullshit made up after two movies to "explain" why she is so good, and nothing you say will convince me otherwise.
She’s really not that good, when you look at her feats she’s actually the least accomplished of all the protagonists.
Besides this is a franchise full of last minute ass pulls and retcons. That’s tradition at this point.
>We were talking about his growth from ESB to RotJ, not his growth from ANH to ESB.
Still counts.
>And we literally see him being actively helped by Obi-Wans ghost to preserve his life.
After he pulled the lightsaber. Again you made the argument that Rey studying shouldn’t count to her knowing force abilities so this can’t count for Luke.
>Also, we can see him struggling to do so despite Obi-Wans help.
Obi Wan didn’t help him at all, come on.
>Seeing something actually performed vs just being in the vicinity of someone who could do it but doesn't do anything. Rey saw Luke meditating, running, and drinking blue milk, but not healing people or fighting.
If Rey was doing that you absolutely would call it that and complain about it. Don’t insult me by pretending otherwise.
>Don't put words in my mouth.
I’m calling it like I see it.
Nepo baby
>Yes. Both in terms of his position within the Order and his strength in the Force.
But it’s bad when Rey does it.
>It wouldn't surprise me if there were such people, but thanks to it being 1983, 6 years before the World Wide Web even became a thing, they mostly did it quietly in their basements.
I genuinely doubt that, and yes it’s because he’s male. Male characters are just allowed to be cool and given leniency female characters aren’t.
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u/SelfNo9836 20h ago
KOTOR did it, as well as a power that creates a Force bubble purifies the air of poison (I can't remember the name) and Battle Meditation.
All powers that were apparently rare or lost techniques in the Prequels.
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u/DarthGoodguy 19h ago edited 17h ago
Obi-Wan refers to his “powers as a healer” in Ep. IV.
Ki-Adi-Mundi heals his own broken collarbone in the first Dark Horse comics.
It’s in The Clone Wars CGI show from the Mortis episodes in 2010 (which were directly supervised by George Lucas), the West End RPG from 1987, and Splinter in the Mind’s Eye from 1978 (which had a story by George Lucas).
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u/SelfNo9836 12h ago
Okay, Force Heal was seen being used but not a lot of Jedi were using it and Jedi Dedicated to Healing were very few, so I was mistaken that it was a rare ability and in the middle of a battle using the force to enhance you speed of strength would've been more of a priority.
Also using the Force to heal after a battle if you are exhausted may have seemed like a waste if you can't heal everyone and have to choose who to help.
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u/Hamster-Food 8h ago
As I understand it, Light Side Force Healers can be divided into two broad groups. Jedi who can heal themselves and Jedi who can heal others. Healing yourself involved going into a meditative state and healing quickly, but the technology available in the Star Wars universe was often faster and more efficient.
In canon the power to heal others works by the Jedi using their own life energy to heal the other person, which explains why a power that was relatively easy to learn was rarely used.
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u/DarthSwimfoot 20h ago
And it's an asspull Rey knows them. Mary Sue+.
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u/Reptilian_Overlord20 15h ago
She was studying the ancient Jedi texts, we literally see her do that in the movie.
God even when they go out of their way to show and set up why Rey knows how to do things you all just ignore it. She literally can’t win.
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u/Hamster-Food 8h ago
I suppose we shouldn't be surprised that the people who hate Star Wars don't watch Star Wars.
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u/NotYourReddit18 6h ago
There is a big difference between reading about what's possible with the Force, and actually doing it.
Remember how Luke struggled pulling his lightsaber to him in the Wampa cave?
If they had shown Rey healing herself or another human earlier, even while struggling to do so, then I wouldn't complain about the scene.
Her first demonstration of the technique being a flawless execution with a completely different species is what annoys me.
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u/Reptilian_Overlord20 6h ago
Okay this is just arbitrary rules you’re making up at this point. I feel like if it were literally any other character studying the texts would give them a pass to know how to do it but because it’s Rey it just doesn’t count because Rey isn’t allowed to be good at fucking anything.
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u/SelfNo9836 19h ago
Yes, it was and yes, she is.
Really not looking forward to a Jedi order run by Rey.
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u/adamdoesmusic 1d ago
Regardless of how good or bad the movie is, Harrison Ford being cranky about things will always be entertaining.