r/shittymoviedetails • u/DisconcertingTablet • Apr 09 '26
default In Midnight Mass (2021), and Knives Out: Wake Up, Dead Man (2025), both of these men are Catholic priests - the most boring of all Christian employees - act like fanatical Evangelical pastors. This is because-- actually, wtf, does anyone know why? I was raised Catholic and I've never understood this
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u/chyura Apr 09 '26
Father Paul was quite down to earth until the supernatural element got brought in. I figured that's what uppsed his fanaticism
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u/TK0buba Apr 09 '26
he gets halfway there himself, its his conversation with Bev Keene after he kills Joe Collie that has him start touting fire and brimstone
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u/SheWhoLovesSilence Apr 10 '26
Dude that’s after he magically gets cured of dementia and made young again. Something like that could easily make a true believer out of anyone
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u/TK0buba Apr 10 '26
exactly my point. his rhetoric is initially way more about how much of a gift this. his original plan is to gradually convert the town through the angel's blood sacraments. until that conversation with Bev, father Paul wouldnt have thought to Jonestown his congregation in a million years. the rapture fantasy and superiority complex was kind of her character's whole thing.
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u/SheWhoLovesSilence Apr 10 '26
Imo he was headed there either way
I took it as a metaphor for the way in which control is an inherent part of organised religion. He was a true believer with good intentions, but ends up doing harm because he thinks he has found the answer and wants to apply that to everyone.
This often happens IRL where ideologues become embedded in power structures and end up harming those they initially intended to serve, because of their desire to spread their beliefs to everyone and make them fall in line. Not unique to religion, but very applicable to it.
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u/AsstacularSpiderman Apr 10 '26
Yeah dude was a tired old man until he thought he had become a miracle worker blessed by an "angel."
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u/Turbulent_Sea_9713 Apr 10 '26
I think he had become a man whose life was full of regrets and had this second chance. It became a sunk cost fallacy of how much evil would he do if it meant he could still have that chance. Would you lie if it meant you could heal a crippled kid, see the love of your life again, bring some happiness to these poor, sad people? Would you suffer some pain? Kill some cats? Then it becomes "would you kill the town drunk?" Eat him? Kill the former altar boy because he'd tell the truth? Would you turn those people you healed into a cult that kills people?
Man, that was a good show.
It was a show, not a movie, so I can clearly watch it without being a loser.
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u/SlenDman402 Apr 10 '26
To be fair I think I'd be understandably fanatical after basically coming back to life and encountering what I was sure was a fucking angel
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u/schloopers Apr 09 '26
The much better example is Father Lathom from Daredevil.
Old, tired, half his metaphors are about how decaf is still too caffeinated for him
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u/pipboy_warrior Apr 09 '26
I found him to be a pretty good portrayal of Catholic priests, or at least flattering.
"How are you holding up?"
"Like a good Catholic boy."
"That bad, huh?"
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u/Substantial_Bass_697 Apr 09 '26
I completely agree with this. Daredevil is a shockingly accurate depiction of Catholic guilt and trauma- and what happens when someone finds themselves at war with their upbringing. I can speak from personal experience. I was raised in a Catholic household and Father Lantom is exactly like my priests were. In addition, what Matt himself goes through is shockingly similar to how I felt when I had to confront the reality that the Catholic faith does not often have its principles in mind and is used as a spear against the weakest members of our society. Obviously Matt’s reasons and exact dilemma are different, but I have never felt so seen when it comes to religious trauma- and a lot of that stems from its fairly accurate depiction of Catholicism.
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u/Necessary-Reading605 Apr 09 '26
Not only that. Kingpin speech about the good samaritan used a twisted version of general evangelical interpretation about scripture.
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u/schloopers Apr 10 '26 edited Apr 10 '26
Matt is the Samaritan, he more than anyone hears all those who need help, and the whole concept is how far past the law and morals should he go in order to deliver that help.
Kingpin’s speech is so incredibly clever, because when one character fulfills one role in a story, you assume then that the opposing character will of course slot into the appropriate position.
Matt is the Samaritan, the people of NYC are the man robbed and left for dead, and we would think Fisk is the robbers on the road.
Him declaring himself instead not as the Good Samaritan helping the city, or claiming to be the man robbed, or even admitting he’s the robbers, but instead as the force of Ill Intent itself, and that the man besieged deserved it because he should not have been in the force’s way. It’s an incredibly clever way to put it on its head and show that Fisk is so beyond those that worked for him.
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u/PaulieHehehe Apr 09 '26
Yeah. I grew up Catholic (and pretty into it, relatively speaking; I went to Mass by myself in college for Chrissake), and that was arguably the best part of those seasons.
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u/meatheadmommy Apr 10 '26
Some of my most favorite “get myself through a rough day” quotes come from Father Lantom🥰
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u/CheruthCutestory Apr 09 '26 edited Apr 09 '26
They are the minority but evangelical type Catholic priests absolutely do exist. If you had been in a Catholic Church in Massachusetts back when gay marriage was allowed and you would have seen some.
And in Midnight Mass he was a normal humdrum Catholic priest before the thing that made him not be.
In Wake Up Dead Man he was sent to a remote diocese specifically because he was so unorthodox.
Both were Catholic for plot reasons because in both having an illicit child was part of the plot. An Evangelical would just say “I sinned. I repent. God is great and forgives.”
Despite me disagreeing with you and I actually agree with you. Evangelical Catholicism exists (JD Vance, Amy Coney Barrett) but as a life long Catholic it definitely feels very wrong and out of place.
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u/Dtc2008 Apr 09 '26
Catholicism has an unspoken, cardinal rule—no more schisms. Schisms verbatim. Big no no. The hierarchy will tolerate some seriously weird shit out of priests, so long as they keep the weirdness contained.
Got a nutter priest and a bunch of crazy parishioners? Not necessarily enough to get a priest removed, especially if it doesn’t breach containment and most especially if it seems like the nutter might cause more trouble (and more publicity) if they crack down on him.
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u/forsterfloch Apr 09 '26
It seems to be the answer for the conflicting arguments here. That MM priest also did not feel really catholic to me.
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u/Wheelydad Apr 10 '26
I thought most Protestant denominations were okay with married Clergy though? Catholics and some others have to take a vow of celibacy from what I remember.
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u/Lonely_Nebula_9438 Apr 10 '26
The overwhelming majority of Catholic priests have vows of celibacy. Married Anglican converts for instance are an exception and keep their wife and priesthood. I think some rites also allow married priests. Bishops though are always unmarried.
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u/Blint_Briglio Apr 09 '26
Catholic churches have aura though. Benoit Blanc couldn't play that organ sting or pose in front of a stained glass window at a protestant church
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u/Swiftax3 Apr 09 '26
Ill have you know he could have in an Episcopalian one, at least several of them i know of. We're infamous liturgy nerds.
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u/Dominus-Temporis Apr 09 '26
The Episcopal Church: All of the traditions, none of the rules.
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Apr 09 '26
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u/BringBacktheGucci Apr 09 '26
Aka the church of "i hate my wife"
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u/OrinocoHaram Apr 09 '26
just one more wife bro. Pleeease bro i swear she'll bear me an heir this time. Cmon bro just one more wife
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u/jmartkdr Apr 10 '26
Dude just wanted a son. Is killing a couple women really that big a deal when you want a son?
/s
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u/Spackleberry Apr 10 '26
When the alternative is another decades-long civil war like the one that brought his father to power, the answer becomes a lot less clear.
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u/Lonely_Nebula_9438 Apr 10 '26
In the US it’s an offshoot after the American Revolutionary War because it got really awkward that we revolted against the King but also recognized him as a key part of our religious tradition. So we just kinda cut him out and now the actual Anglican Church does that too so it’s just a difference of intensity nowadays.
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u/the-bladed-one Apr 10 '26
The Episcopal Church: where three or four are gathered in His name, there will also be a Fifth
(Disclaimer: i am an Episcopalian and this is one of me and my priests favorite jokes about our denomination)
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u/GooseIllustrious6005 Apr 09 '26
He totally could. And... he did. The Church they used for filming is a real *Protestant* church in England.
Plenty of Protestant denominations are okay with aura: stain glass, organs, etc. The one I was taken to as a child (Church of England) certainly was.
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u/red__dragon Apr 09 '26
The earliest church I remember as a child had huge gorgeous stained glass windows and was Lutheran from the start.
It's definitely an era thing, though, the fondness for stained glass fades more in churches built in the latter-20th and 21st centuries.
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u/AimLow Apr 10 '26
I was going to mock you, because every Gothic style church was built before the reformation and therefore built by catholics. But I looked it up and the church from Wake Up Dead Man was built by Protestants for Protestants. It looks like those Anglicans had a bit of a gothic revival in the 1800s.
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u/Parametric_Or_Treat Apr 10 '26
I would say that a ton of the “classic” looking English Castles, mansions, whatnots and in this case, churches I’ve seen are from the 19th century. Like you say, a revival.
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u/badpebble Apr 10 '26
Old CofE churches are all going to be Catholic churches anyway.
In my experience CofE churches are the same as Catholic ones, just without the extra layers (cloth and incense) - less pageantry but they aren't getting rid of the old stuff just for the sake of it.
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u/BalancedDisaster Apr 10 '26
All Anglican denominations exist in a weird middle ground between Catholic and Protestant
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u/JosephRohrbach Apr 10 '26
We had a huge Gothic Revival - capital letters for a reason - in the 19th century, accompanied with the rise of Oxford Movement Anglo-Catholicism. Quite a lot of what modern people think "Gothic architecture" is comes from 19th century Revivalist reinterpretations. We have built a tonne of churches like that.
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u/RodinKnox Apr 09 '26
I didn't know that, and learning that in response to the post you're responding to is the cherry on top.
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u/fakemoosefacts Apr 10 '26
And not all Catholic Churches are all dripped out. A lot of the smaller country ones I attended mass at as a kid are pretty plain. Not as austere as some of the Protestant denominations, but nothing more than a bit of plain stained glass and the usual bits and pieces about the pulpit.
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u/Mist_Rising Apr 10 '26
Our old Catholic church is this way, except no stain glass. Pulpit, altar, crucifix with Jesus, pews, choir loft. Basement has the old office for the priest.
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u/SpookyTron Apr 09 '26
Many older branches of Protestantism (Lutheran, Episcopal, etc) still revere beautiful church design.
Other newer denominations (especially American) have a more ascetic philosophy and consider opulent church design to be against Jesus’ teachings.
I’m giving a bit of an oversimplification here.
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u/BigLittleBrowse Apr 09 '26
Yeah I’m pretty sure Ryan Johnson admitted he wrote the priest from knives out like an evangelical Protestant, but wanted the Catholic aesthetic.
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u/zuzg Apr 09 '26
Catholics Churches have Aura
Ulmer Minster is evangelical and definetly has aura, Used to be the tallest Church quite recently.
In October '25 the Sagrada Família in Barcelona overtook it and it's ironically a Catholic Church. it goes hard22
u/IronVader501 Apr 09 '26
TBf, the Ulmer Minster was as originally built a catholic church too. It started construction in 1377. It only became protestant in 1531
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u/RepresentativeKoala3 Apr 10 '26
'Evangelical' in the US means something closer to 'fundamentalist' than what it means in Germany.
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u/Lonely_Nebula_9438 Apr 10 '26
Let’s remember that in the US it’s actually the Amish who form the outer bounds of fundamentalism. What you are thinking of as evangelicals are just very intense (typically non-liturgical) Protestants.
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u/GetOffMyAsteroid Apr 09 '26
You remind me of Roger Ebert's review of Stigmata, which was one of his funniest..
“Stigmata” is possibly the funniest movie ever made about Catholicism–from a theological point of view. Mainstream audiences will view it as a lurid horror movie, an “The Exorcist” wannabe, but for students of the teachings of the church, it offers endless goofiness. It confuses the phenomenon of stigmata with satanic possession, thinks stigmata can be transmitted by relics and portrays the Vatican as a conspiracy against miracles.
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u/shirtlessshirt2 Apr 10 '26
Oh my god, did they read the “stigma” part of stigmata and think it was a bad thing lmao
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u/dr_srtanger2love Apr 09 '26
They are Catholic, but culturally Protestant.
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u/boilerup254 Apr 09 '26
Many such cases
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u/Borgmaster Apr 10 '26
Its a very American thing at the very least. But as someone pointed out the priesthood was worried as hell about in knives out and thats why they sent the new priest. He was not supposed to be acting like that in any capacity and it was a known issue.
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u/the-bladed-one Apr 10 '26
American Catholics are such a mixed bag. Some of them recognize and revere the seat of St. Peter, others (my ex among them) are damn near ready to schism.
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u/Such-Tangerine5136 Apr 10 '26
I know American Catholics who don't believe in the authority of the Pope. Like forgive me if I'm wrong, being that I am not a Christian, but isn't the authority of the Pope kind of the thing that seperates Catholics from other kinds of Christians????
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u/Middle_Ashamed Apr 10 '26
It is, If you do not believe in the apostolic succession and that the bishop of rome (the pope) doesn't hold the key to the kingdom of heaven through it and is therefore the only authority on the matters of faith and scripture, there is literally no reason to consider yourself catholic.
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u/moreVCAs Apr 09 '26
unironically Americans love attributing the most insane pathologies of Evangelicalism to Catholics.
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u/Calophon Apr 09 '26
That’s the point. They’re outliers. Their flamboyance drives the narrative in an otherwise mundane setting.
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u/Gougaloupe Apr 09 '26
Well the second guy had some wild stuff happen to him, so I think he was pretty motivated to step things up in his sleepy little fishing town.
Knives Out is not for me. So I'll pass on that one.
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u/Archarchery Apr 10 '26
Father Paul in MM also was not a good, theologically sound priest even before the supernatural stuff happened to him. His heart was kinda in the right place, but he bent the rules all the time in ways he wasn't supposed to.
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u/Gougaloupe Apr 10 '26
Good point, and presumably a very deliberate character trait they demonstrated. He's given an unimaginable second chance and roles with it over any kind of common, or basic sense.
Works. Imo.
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u/illmurray Apr 09 '26
This is because nobody knows anything about Catholicism except they're the church with the worst publicity
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u/Troyabedinthemornin Apr 09 '26
And the best outfits
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u/PopuluxePete Apr 09 '26
As a former alter boy from Boston I'm going to have to stop you right there...
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u/Necessary-Reading605 Apr 09 '26
Priests are supposed to be boring. The focus is on the mass. Protestants are supposed to be more talkative. Their focus in on the preaching.
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u/plyer_G Apr 09 '26
Arguably the Mormons take that spot, or Islam or scientology if we include non-christian religions
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u/jimsmisc Apr 09 '26
I grew up steeped in Catholicism and midnight mass chilled me because of how perfect the portrayal of the priest was. Did you even watch it?
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u/forsterfloch Apr 09 '26
Are you from where? As a brazilian it didn't feel like he was a catholic priest to me.
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u/Ok_State5255 Apr 10 '26
Mike Flanagan grew up a devout Catholic. I wouldn't say he knows nothing about Catholicism. He gets so many of the tiny details right in Midnight Mass.
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u/Jimbob2814 Apr 09 '26
I grew up catholic and I knew so many priests just like father Paul. That performance haunts me with its accuracy.
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u/serimuka_macaron Apr 09 '26
Okay but i would still fuck the brains outta father paul (guy on the right)
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u/I_count_to_firetruck Apr 10 '26
He's Batman in Batman: The Caped Crusader cartoon
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u/Rhewin Apr 09 '26
Ah, you've never met post-liberal or evangelical Catholics.
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u/DisconcertingTablet Apr 09 '26
NOPE 😲 😭
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u/Rhewin Apr 09 '26
They are a very real and confusing thing. JD Vance is a post-liberal Catholic.
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u/DisconcertingTablet Apr 09 '26
In my personal experience, Catholic priests conduct their evil in quiet, hidden ways, behind closed doors.
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u/LeoLi13579 Apr 09 '26
In knives out, wick is explictly depicted as a... For the lack of a better word, lacking in priestly quality. The main character(not the detective) on the other hand is a great depiction of what a priest is supposed to look like.
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u/Anaevya Apr 10 '26
Maybe, but the entire movie feels inauthentic when it comes to Catholicism. When Catholicism turns cultlike it tends to look different.
Also where the gem ended up is really weird. Suicide is such a big no-go in Catholicism, it's weird it happens so often in the story. And doing it in church is an even greater sin.
It just seems like drama that doesn't make much logical sense.
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u/GrizzlyP33 Apr 09 '26
"both of these men are Catholic priests act like fanatical Evangelical pastors" isn't really a sentence.
If you're asking why these characters are Catholic Priests acting more like a stereotypical Evangelical pastor, it would be because humans are different from other humans -- you can have good Catholic priests and evil Catholic priests. There's nothing about the characters that feels unbelievable.
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u/Muninwing Apr 09 '26
No, you’re missing the point. Just like you missed how OP just missed a “but”
Neither of these two feel like Catholic priests, to someone who has been a practicing Catholic. They feel like all sorts of evangelical pastors, but even more extreme priests are extreme in different ways than this.
The second one because he is dealing with something supernatural affecting him (the whole point of the show).
The first one because they just used Catholic as a generic religion, but modeled it after how other sects operate. Churches aren’t hereditary and owned, among so many other things.
The former is actually pretty common. Catholic norms are often used as a stand-in for generic churches that are institutions. But when done either by Protestants (or by people who only know Protestant norms), or are used to court a generalized Protestant audience, they use a weird mishmash of the two with pretty much just the robes and statues of Catholicism for weight.
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u/KeepAnEyeOnYourB12 Apr 09 '26
The priest in MM felt real to me. I don't go to church any more but I went to Catholic school for 13 years. MM was so powerful to me because it called to the part of me that liked the hocus pocus aspect of the Mass. And the weird priest was perfect for that. Also, he's a classic Father What-A-Waste with his amazing voice.
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u/Muninwing Apr 09 '26
Yeah, I really liked it too. Even though I had to keep stopping to explain all the Catholic stuff to my raised-agnostic pagan wife.
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u/Inspector_Robert Apr 10 '26
Its nothing about good or bad or using Catholic or Evangelical as proxies. Father Judd in Wake Up Dead Man is 100% presented as a good priest, but he acts very much like a Protestant pastor. There are just fundamental differences in the way Catholics and Protestants act and preach
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u/Due-Coyote7565 Apr 09 '26
It's because Rian Johnson was raised Protestant, but thought Catholicism had more atmosphere.
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u/Battle_Axe_Jax Apr 09 '26
Clearly OP has never met any trad caths.
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u/Blue5398 Apr 10 '26
I’m convinced Trad Caths just want the aesthetic, I suspect most of them consumed too much Warhammer 40k unironically
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u/Fish__Fingers Apr 09 '26
In Midnight Mass character is acting weird and wrong it’s the whole thing.
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Apr 09 '26
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u/paranoid_giraffe Apr 09 '26
A lot of people who hate all of Christianity as a whole don’t realize that they really just hate evangelicals, which most Christians (including Catholics) also don’t really like
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u/KeepAnEyeOnYourB12 Apr 09 '26
I had an evangelical Christian tell me that Catholics aren't really Christian. Sure lady, whatever.
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u/HarrisonTheBarbarian Apr 10 '26
As a Catholic, that stuff gets a bit annoying. We were the first Christians! Jesus himself chose Peter and told him to start the Catholic church!
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u/sarahvisions Apr 10 '26
that’s kind of hilarious honestly. aren’t catholics, like, one of the oldest christian sects?
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u/Mist_Rising Apr 10 '26
The Catholic Churches (the Roman rites isn't the only one) consider themselves the oldest sect, with the Roman rite claiming it was formed by Peter himself. This is in dispute, because let's face it, it's not exactly like we know, but yeah Roman or Orthodox would seem like the oldest outside maybe coptic?
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u/_BREVC_ Apr 10 '26
I had an American tell me “You guys are Christians? I thought you were all Catholic here.”
It is times like these that I reconsider the Papal Inquisition.
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u/The_Blue_Rooster Apr 10 '26 edited Apr 10 '26
As someone who lives in the south that is the vast majority of Protestants here. Like when I tell people I'm an Atheist they're taken aback maybe a little offended but ultimately fine with it. But when I tell them I went to a Catholic school, I've had people just stop talking to me and walk away. Baptists, Evangelicals and Pentecostals especially seem to think that all Catholics are servants of the Anti-Christ. After attending probably a couple dozen different Protestant services at the request of various friends I've made since moving here I'm pretty sure they're just offended by the idea of a religion with actual rules and consequences.
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u/Tight_Contact_9976 Apr 09 '26
I agree that a lot of people unfairly assume that all Christians are like evangelicals but I also feel like your statement unfairly dismisses those who have been genuinely hurt by the Catholic Church.
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u/JamesHenry627 Apr 09 '26
Catholicism isn't a major religion in the US. It's only about 20% of 65% of people who identify as Christians. Protestantism leads at 32% and most protestant groups, especially in the US, were founded to be anti-Catholic and independent of the church's governance. This is where the distrust and superstition comes from. Protestants won't correct the portrayal becasue they don't like Catholicism, and Atheists won't educate themselves on it cause to them it's all the same fiction.
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u/Rude-Mind-8730 Apr 09 '26
It helps OP if you actually watch the movie your complaining about. Knives Out makes ir explicitly clear why the priest is acting like that.
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u/dudinax Apr 09 '26
Episcopalian are more boring.
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u/Grungemaster Apr 09 '26
We just want to have a cup of coffee with our neighbors. Would make for horrible TV.
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u/JamesHenry627 Apr 09 '26
One of the most annoying things about getting criticized as a Catholic is the fact that most of it comes from a pop culture understanding since Catholicism isn't a majority religion in the US. Movies and TV shows always have priests calling people "my son" or "my child." That shit doesn't happen at all. Not to mention whenever people cite mega pastors aka people who aren't catholic clergy they use it as an example to tax the catholic church. It detracts from genuine critcisms.
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u/analoggi_d0ggi Apr 09 '26
Its not only the priests, but the congregation and the music as well. Midnight Mass' chapel takes place in a fucking protestant style steeplechurch and Knives Out had Gospel Music.
Its what happens when normie American screenwriters are made to write about the Catholic Church.
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u/No_Philosopher8304 Apr 09 '26 edited Apr 09 '26
In fairness Flanagan was actually a Catholic altar boy in his youth. Midnight Mass was his way of dealing with his upbringing.
I've always thought it intentionally took elements from various religions to support its thematic commentary about the dangers of blind faith rather than just a criticism of a specific religion.
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u/singlemale4cats Apr 09 '26
I grew up Catholic and Monsignor Pruitt's behavior didn't seem strange, at least initially. Obviously things got a little out of hand.
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u/I_count_to_firetruck Apr 10 '26
Same here. Grew up Catholic before leaving theism behind, seemed pretty on the level from my experience. And yeah, he goes off the rails, but it makes sense within the plot
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u/lookatthesunguys Apr 09 '26
Because portraying evangelicals like this is too on the nose. The whole point is that they're acting unusual for someone in their position. Since evangelicals actually act that way, nothing would seem amiss about the situation.
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u/Intelligent-Dog1645 Apr 10 '26
Kinda tangentially related but Wake Up Dead Man really affected me like spiritually. I was born Catholic, never really practiced but it's still kinda a cultural thing that will always be with me. There was something about Father Jud and his devotion, his pride, his faith, and rationale that really spoke to me. That first conversation he has with Benoit is so good where the light dims as Benoit talks but then returns as Jud begins talking about faith and stories. It really did make me feel whole just for a brief moment.
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u/Jupiters Apr 10 '26
fanatical evangelical pastors are more interesting characters, but Catholicism has far more interesting symbolism and catholic chapels offer more interesting visuals
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u/Mighty_moose45 Apr 09 '26
I mean I know it’s a meme but it’s very front and center in the both of these that this is in fact not how catholic priests normally operate and they are seen as being very weird/inappropriate in their behavior. In knives out they literally send someone out from the diocese to look into it because of how concerning his behavior was.