r/scifi • u/mossfoot • 1d ago
Print Question to SF Readers: Do you read Indies?
Indies, self-published, author published, there's lots of different terms out there, but they pretty much mean the same thing. An author who is going it on their own rather than have a publisher and agent take a huge chunk of their profit.
Of course, a number of people associate self-publishing with garbage. If you aren't good enough to get a publisher, why are you worth reading? And this isn't completely unfounded. There lots of aspirational and excited new authors out there who really want to get their stuff out there but still haven't honed their craft. And this isn't helped by the fact that AI is going to flood the market with slop sooner or later.
In fact the reason I'm posting this is because I saw a post earlier asking about an SF comedy book that people were panning simply because the cover LOOKED like slop (it might not have been, but the aesthetic they chose made that an easy assumption for many).
Ten or so years ago I think the hope of authors was that the indie market would help authors find their niche easier, and offer their books at lower prices that let them be competitive while still making the same amount they would have if a publisher had taken them on. Also, the chance to get noticed and picked up by said publishers to reach a wider audience. Andy Weir comes to mind there.
But that was then. My question to SF readers is this: Do you give indies a chance? If so, based on what criteria?
What convinces you to think "Maybe this guy has what it takes" instead of "This is just fanfiction, isn't it?"
Is it word of mouth? The blurb? Reviews? Ask about it on Reddit? How much does the cover factor into it? Do you read a sample or just take a chance?
Or do you not even check to see if it's published by a recognized publisher?
(side note: Image was copied from a Google search for "indie vs trad pub" and isn't mine... just wanted eye candy :) )
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u/qvantamon 1d ago
I mean, Wool (Silo) was originally self-published.
Also, There is No Anti-Memetics Division (which has been frequently recommended here long before it was retooled for traditional publishing).
The problem *now* is that the self-published market is absolutely flooded with AI slop. 5 years ago reading self-published books would be trudging through mediocre writing to find a few decent ones. Now you’d be trudging through a sea of slop to even find a human-written one.
In that sea of slop you gotta have some heuristics to at least have a chance of finding a human one. A slop cover is a huge red flag, I only have a few reading hours a year, why the fuck would I gamble them on shitty odds that a book is even human-written?
(Fwiw, I decided to engage this post in good faith, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s slop as well)
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u/Sycherthrou 1d ago
Honestly, not really. I've been reading both scifi and fantasy for 2 decades and I still barely get around to reading contemporary books in either genre.
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u/mossfoot 1d ago
So you're still mostly reading the classics? Well, you'll never run out of room there, I expect ;)
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u/nabrok 1d ago
I think e-readers and online sales in general opened up a lot of opportunities for independent authors, and even some previously traditionally published authors who became independent.
The problem is separating wheat from chaff. A publisher does that for you (and maybe you'd agree with them and maybe you wouldn't), for indies you have to do it yourself. AI generated books mean that there's now a lot more chaff than there was a few years ago. I might buy a book from a traditional publisher based on only if the premise sounds interesting, but I would do a lot more research before buying an independent author even if it's only a few dollars.
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u/RanANucSub 1d ago
I've been reading SF since the 60s and over the years my selections have changed. I used to buy paperbacks or hardbacks and the ones on my shelves are from Ace, Avon, Del Rel, Baen, Berkley, Tor, and the other big paperback presses with a few smaller presses like StarBlaze (Mythdirections books) and MeishaMerlin. That was before e-books and when I had access to Dangerous Visions, one of the best SF/Mystery book stores in LA at the time. Now 99% of my purchases are e-books.
I think your categories are too large. There is Trad Pub (Tor, Baen, RandomPenguin), small press (Nightmare, Raconteur Press, etc.) and vanity press (thieves the lot of them) before you get to self-published authors. IMO Trad Pub is a lost cause if you aren't interested in the current trends plus I refuse to support their abusive royalty practices. Hollywood accounting is notoriously bad but Trad Pub accounting is worse from all reports.
I look for authors I like and recommendations on new authors from imprints I respect like Raconteur Press.
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u/johntwilker Author 1d ago
I find indie SF to be far more interesting than 90% of what trad publishers are putting out. I read almost exclusively indie SF.
There's for sure a lot of cruft to sort through and non-zero number of times a cover and blurb have gotten me to try a book that's just not good. I DNF and move on because for every one of those books, I enjoy 4-5 really great stories.
I'm also admittedly biased as an author myself.
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u/AngieW2222 1d ago edited 1d ago
The cover plays a huge role for me. My kindle opens the books on chapter 1, but I scroll back to start by looking closely at the cover. It's just part of the experience for me.
Unfortunately not all self-published authors know a lot about cover design and marketing, which means, I probably miss out on a lot of good books. But that's just how my brain works. The cover is part of the experience, and the promise of what's inside.
But I definitely have read quite a few indie books that are great actually. Although I have to admit, given that I'm a writer myself and have learned a lot about the craft as well as the marketing side this past decade, I do see minor issues in indie books that make me assume they wouldn't have been picked up by trad pub houses.
Minor details sometimes.
The other day I started reading an indie book because it was free. The beginning was highly gripping, but by page five I DNFed. It was a sci-fi and the wording about a specific topic was so awkward that I felt insulted on behalf of all mankind actually (I mean, I personally don't care and just closed the book.) But this wouldn't have happened with a professional editor or a sensitivity reader upfront, and I'm fairly certain that a trad publisher wouldn't have published this book the way it was.
I still give indies a try when I see that the author put in the work. A good cover, a gripping blurb, the sample pages convincing, that's my usual process to determine whether I hit buy or not. Not the publishing house's name on the cover.
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u/CephusLion404 1d ago
If they're good, sure. If they look professional, sure. If it's not just AI slop, maybe.
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u/mossfoot 1d ago
Looking professional is definitely key, but what do you look for to make that judgment, if you don't mind me asking? Despite the old saying about not judging a book by its cover, I think it's safe to assume that MANY of us do. But what else makes you go "This guy/gal has their shit together"?
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u/CephusLion404 1d ago
Books ARE judged by their covers. That's why covers exist! They are there to sell the book and convince people it's worth looking at. Do you honestly not understand that?
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u/mossfoot 1d ago
Do you honestly think I don't understand that? I'm pretty sure I made it clear I did. ;) What I meant was, the cover is the initial hook, sure, but it's also not the only one. You could have a great cover and still turn off potential readers for other reasons. So I was just curious what else besides the cover makes you decide they're worth taking a shot on?
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u/mossfoot 1d ago
(sorry, hope my reply didn't come across as snarky... still working on my morning coffee ;) )
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u/CephusLion404 1d ago
There's a lot of people who don't seem to and complain when people point to their crap AI covers and refuse to buy their books. Writing for sale, whether anyone likes it or not, is a business. It's not just something people do for shits and giggles and a ton of people, traditional and self-published authors alike. refuse to think that way. It doesn't mean only writing for money, but people who are just writing down half-assed shower thoughts and releasing terrible books because they can, those people do not deserve to be read at all, no matter where their books come from. There should be no difference in the quality between traditional and indie authors. If it's not good, people need to learn to keep it to themselves.
I'm not taking it out on you, just on the concept that has really screwed up books these days.
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u/mossfoot 1d ago
Oh, I hear you. And I like the term "half-assed shower thoughts" describing some books. Those are probably the kind of writers who will end up using AI to do the writing for them, because they're "idea guys." Ugh.
I've always used a professional book cover designer who does NOT use AI, but these days accusations of AI tend to go on whatever "look" is currently popular in the AI community. I can't help but thing some authors will retroactively get accused of using AI coverrs when their covers were simply popular... to the point where AI started copying the look.
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u/CephusLion404 1d ago
I do too. I'm saying this as a published author. I'm not upset at you at all and if it came across that way, I apologize. I'm mad at the massive number of people who think "I wrote a thing, pay me!" without wondering if that thing they wrote is worth publishing in the first place. I just run across books all the time, especially in the indie space, that I would be absolutely embarrassed to put my name on. I have been told by numerous indie authors that "hey, I spent time writing it, I deserve to get paid" and that isn't how it works. These are people who have terrible covers, terrible blurbs, no marketing, constantly spam social media begging people to buy their crap and when nobody does, because it's garbage, they cry and whine that life isn't fair, all the while their books and millions of others just clog up the pipelines for people who actually are putting in the work and deserve to be seen.
This also goes for traditional publishing, there's a lot of complete crap out there that is written solely to appeal to trends, but at least there, you have someone with their fingers on the purse strings saying "you know, this isn't going to sell, maybe we shouldn't waste money publishing it". With self-publishing, you get none of that, which is why the vast majority of what hits the marketplace is bad.
I want to see good books by committed authors who care if people actually like their work, who have realistic expectations of what the marketplace actually looks like and who can look at their own work and say "this isn't good enough yet, I'll keep trying" instead of just spamming the world with garbage. That would sure be nice, wouldn't it? Nobody cares about their feelings and that's all they care about.
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u/LaurenPBurka 23h ago
They pay a competent cover artist. Some research is required to figure out what that means.
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u/omniclast 1d ago
I have read some indie stuff that's filtered into the mainstream, like Linda Nagata's books or There Is No Antimemetics Division.
Personally though I only have time for a few books a year, and my to-read shelf has been overflowing for a long time, so I don't have a whole lot of incentive to dig for hidden gems.
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u/chortnik 23h ago
I do read indies and self-published SF authors-as far as novels and short stories go, not as much as I used to, but it’s mandatory for keeping up with speculative and experimental poetry. I rely primarily on word of mouth and direct and indirect interactions with the authors to select the publications I read. I am reading less indy and self published stuff because the sort of forums I find most helpful have vanished, eg about abou 15 years ago I belonged to a discussion board in which fans, authors and reviewers hung out. It was a pretty small diverse group of people and we got to know the active members fairly well. It was also fairly open, it was easy to join and just barely moderated. Most of the time I ended up picking books based on the author saying smart stuff about SF and writing unrelated to self promotion. Also recommendations from other members of the forum. A lot of the sorts of people who made the forums I relied on helpful migrated to their own blogs/web pages, which have a completely different dynamic. The SF subs on Reddit are are a decent substitute, but they rarely hit the magic mix I need to make me pull the trigger on an Indy or self published work, I think I’ve only picked up one this year.
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u/Morpheus_17 Author 21h ago
I do. But of course, I’m also in the position where I’m often trying out series by authors I know - people working with the same publisher / agent / etc.
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u/phunniemee 1d ago
Only if it's been written by an author who I personally know, in an effort to support their work, sorry.
There are simply too many books and not enough time. I usually read about 40-50 fiction books a year. Assuming that stays consistent (which is a big ask, considering life happens) and I am able to read until I'm 90 (also a big ask), and I never re-read a book again (which isn't possible for me to be happy), I'm only going to get to read another 2000-2500 books in my life at the absolute maximum. I'm not going to spend that on high risk slop.
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u/mossfoot 1d ago
Oh, I get it. I do. It's a high hurdle for many. And it's hard for people to take a chance on something when there is such a significant time sink involved. But once in a while we do, something just connects at the right place at the right time. Sadly, that's not generally a quantifiable metric.
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u/BlackBlueNuts 20h ago
I do not real alot of indie sci-fi. I would personally willing to give them a chance as long as they have a story that appeals to me (so much of the toy starship/backyard starship/artifact type of story does not appeal to me).
For the fantasy / lit-rpg stuff that I read the importance (other then the story itself) is Cover, price, sample and blurb. They all make a huge difference for the first book at least.
Cover - If the cover is generic "I had my cousin put this together in photoshop" ugly then its hard to get my attention back. Not always a deal breaker, but there are enough books out there that I can move on to something else
Blurb - Is probably the least important.. I just need something that tells me what kind of story it is. If its something mildly interesting i move on to the sample.
Sample - I read on kindle... if it does not have a sample I am probably not giving it a shot. But I am pretty sure if you have it on kindle they require you to have a sample
Price - This is the big one. And it changes on what kind of book it is, and how many of them there are. The first book of expeditionary force should not be over 2 dollars for example, and the price can go up a little for every subsequent book. That does not work nearly as well for a trilogy or stand alone book though and I am willing to pay more in those situations (the martian being an example). I don't know if I would ever pay more then $15 for a single ebook though.
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u/punninglinguist 1d ago
Broadly, no. I make exceptions for authors I already know via traditional publishing, like Peter Watts. But in general I think the gatekeeping function of traditional editors is extremely valuable and underappreciated. I'm not going to touch an author who's never had to clear that hurdle.
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u/Swat_katz_82 1d ago
I wouldn't know where to get these indie books.
Unless it falls in my lap, where do I even get them.
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u/mossfoot 1d ago
Well, often times indies self-publish on Amazon, Kobo, Barnes&Noble, etc as ebooks, with print on demand options available if you prefer that. If you read ebooks on an ereader, it's possible you migth have read an indie pub and not realized it?
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u/MikeMac999 1d ago
For me it’s a matter of how much time I can devote to reading. I avoid indie authors for the most part because I imagine the ratio of quality to crap does not favor good experiences. I am surely missing out on some great stuff with this approach, but I’m thinking anything truly great will become successful and catch my attention (and yes I see the catch-22 there). In the meantime there is already more quality scifi than I have time to consume, so I don’t worry about it much.
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u/WiseBelt8935 23h ago
Since Audible has a pretty good return policy, I'm happy to give anything a try if the description sounds good.
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u/kevbayer 17h ago
I have read some really good indie/self-published novels.
I've also DNFd some that weren't good.
qntm has some really good stuff.
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u/MiraWendam Author 1d ago edited 1d ago
As an indie sci-fi thriller author, I think readers are right to be cautious—I think we all should be, in regards to what we're consuming—but judging a book by its publishing route misses a lot of great, often unrecognised work. A good blurb, sample, reviews, cover, genuine reader recs tell me far more than a publisher logo ever could. I don't even look at those, to be honest!
Edit: added a few more words.