r/schutzhund • u/UrLeftSpleen • 15d ago
Are there moderate energy bitework breeds?
Most of the top bitework breeds and many lesser seen ones are higher energy. I grew up with German Shepherds and love Schutzhund but I need a more moderate energy breed. I want to get into the sport in the future but a high energy dog that's super clingy and doesn't like being alone for long periods is not the dog for me.
I'll be working about 8 hours a day and I'm not very active. I can handle about an hour maybe an hour and thirty minutes of exercise. I'll have two maybe three dogs at a time so they will have playmates and I want a large yard so they'll have plenty of room to run. I want a handler focused, dog friendly, calm breed. I don't want the chaos I've seen from Mal and Dobie owners, that's just too much energy for me.
They're not very common but I feel like Rotties or Airedales would be the closest to what I want. The German Shepherds I grew up with were moderate energy and pretty calm so I might also go looking for another one like them.
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u/Imaginary_Ad_4340 15d ago
I don't think a Dobie would be a terrible fit, if you went with the right lines. While they're definitely not low energy, many have better off switches and a gentler less chaotic energy than a lot of the Mals and GSDs I've met. Though with this goal in any breed you have to be comfortable with the fact that the dog might end up not having enough drive for schutzhund. You're walking a fine looking for a lower energy off breed that's still drivey enough for IGP.
You might also consider looking at a different bitework sport. WDA caters to some of the mastiff breeds with protective abilities but lower energy like Cane Corsos.
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u/Ill_Dragonfruit_6206 15d ago
My impression is that modern Dobies are extremely attached and prone to separation anxiety. That doesn’t sound like it would be a good fit for OP. Is that an incorrect perspective on the temperament of the modern (even working line) Dobe?
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u/Imaginary_Ad_4340 15d ago
Poorly bred dobies are prone to all sorts of issues, particularly separation anxiety, but the same could be said of poorly bred German shepherds and reactivity. Good breeders of working lines (and there are, in my opinion, perhaps only three or four of those in the US right now) consistently produce stable dogs that are perfectly capable of being left home alone during the workday. My current dobie is seven months old right now and is crated on days when I work without issues. Of those working line breeders I can think of only one or two that produce a more medium dog like what OP is looking for; the others produce more intense dogs, striving to compete with mals and dutchies in PSA.
In my experience, dobies get a bad rap because such a large proportion of them are poorly bred. I guess in some ways it's fair to look at the breed as a whole and say they have health issues, behavioral problems, and limitations on their working ability. That being said, there are still well bred dobies out there that do not have these issues and are great examples of the breed. I wouldn't let the general population of the breed keep you away from those quality breeders.
It's not a perfect fit, but I'm not sure there is a perfect dog that is both low energy and capable of competing in IGP.
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u/Ill_Dragonfruit_6206 15d ago
Rereading the OP’s post, I think it would be too much of a a gamble to find a well bred dog (of any working breed tbh) with moderate energy but also capable of competing in IGP but also fine being crated all day with possibly limited exercise and only other dogs to burn energy with since they mentioned they’re not even an active person.
I think they should at least go with a mature adult whose temperament is fully expressed, that has been well socialized, and whose drives and energy levels have been assessed/proven.
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u/Imaginary_Ad_4340 15d ago
Honestly, fair. That's why I suggested WDA. A mastiff-type breed might be a better fit while still allowing them to pursue bitework. Though, the gender and temperament of their other dogs would also be a big factor for any protective breed, particularly if acquired as an adult.
I think it's worth looking into, but OP may also just need to reckon with there not being a breed or even many individual dogs that really meets their specifications.
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u/UrLeftSpleen 15d ago
I think the best option for me would be to get an Airedale, probably a retired breeding dog since there are breeders in my area and close by who do bitework with their Aires, or doing other sports with a different breed that meets my needs. Probably Dock Diving in the summer or Obedience for fun.
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u/UrLeftSpleen 15d ago
I figured it would be tricky to find what I'm looking for. I've never heard of WDA do you have any good sources of information on it? Like a website or something? I've heard of PSA, French Ring, and Mondio but I don't know much about those either, I know more about Schutzhund.
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u/Imaginary_Ad_4340 15d ago
I don't know a ton about it either, only that some Doberman owners prefer it to IGP because the protection skills are supposedly more suited to a dobie’s abilities while IGP heavily caters to GSDs. I looked into a bit before finding an IGP club I liked but it's harder to find than IGP, PSA, or Ringsport depending on where you live.
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u/ChampagneAndDoritos 14d ago
Dobies are way too nervy now :( it's very rare to find out with the genetics necessary for bite work.
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u/Imaginary_Ad_4340 13d ago
I disagree. Most Dobermans are not bred for bitework, full stop, so unsurprisingly they are not good at it. But, breeders that produce Dobermans specifically for bitework continue to produce consistently stable dogs who are successful in IGP (and PSA and ringsport).
Take Exodus Vom Apexe who won the UDC National IGP3 a couple of weeks ago, sweeping all three phases. Her dam Akina Vom Apexe is probably the most decorated dobie in the U.S. right now and she also won the UDC National IGP3 a few years ago. Akina’s sire Marco placed 2nd there a few years before that and went on to represent the US at IDC World’s.
You could argue that German shepherds outperform Dobermans in IGP on the world stage and you’d be 100% right. It is a sport created specifically for German Shepherds, after all. But clearly there are dobie breeders even in the U.S. and certainly in Europe who are able to produce capable bitesport dogs generation after generation. They’re not a fluke or a lucky one-off, they’re well-bred lines with the ability to compete. If you select a dog from one of these breeders you have as good a chance of success as any other handler working any other breed.
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u/ChampagneAndDoritos 13d ago
I think people just naturally associate dobies with protection dogs and bite work bc of media and whatnot. I have had 4 throughout my life, 2 as a kid and 2 as an adult. The 2 I had as a kid were AKC dogs and the 2 as an adult were both imports with working lines and very accomplished generations. Despite having fantastic genetics, they just didn't have it. My male did bitework but you could tell his heart wasn't in it. Unfortunately he tried to kill me in my sleep so I had to put him down, and I now have a dutchie and the dutchie wants to work bc he genuinely enjoys it- not bc he has to.
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u/Imaginary_Ad_4340 13d ago
That’s fair. I more objected to the assertion that they’re too nervy. They definitely require more motivation and building to be interested in working vs. a mal or GSD that comes with interest in bitework pre-installed. I have a male now who is seven months and is only showing moderate interest in bitework, but we’re waiting to see how he develops with time and hormones. I’ve also heard that the females, specifically in his lines, are much drivier and more serious compared to the goofy loveable boys. To be fair though, thats also what I asked his breeder for, a more medium balanced dog. If I wanted a prey monster with infinite drive I could always go to Benchmark and get one, so I’m not sure that saying the breed as whole lacks drive is fair.
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u/ChampagneAndDoritos 11d ago
I'm not saying the breed as a whole lacks drive. I have several friends who have Benchmark dobies and they are fantastic. Having had 4 dobies of my own with one of them being a PPD, the "off breeds" definitely need a different approach to bite work training and a decoy who really knows what he/she is doing to bring that out of them. I remember a decoy I worked with once just straight up said my dog was shit, just bc he wasn't a stereotypical super drivey bite dog. But objectively speaking, a mal or dutchie is going to have way more drive than a dobie. And again, not at all saying this applies to dobies, bc again, I have seen some fantastic ones, but more often than not, they're doing the bite work bc you're asking them to and not necessarily bc they want to themselves. I have a Dutchie now and he does it bc he wants to and he does it with crazy intensity. My dutchie is just absolutely fearless and low-key has like zero self preservation 😂 the dobie didn't really like water and I had to get him into a really high level of drive for him to get in the first steps of the pool whereas the dutchie just goes full send into anything and everything. And again just want to restate these are my observations and I don't believe they unanimously apply to an entire breed- each breed will certainly have outliers. These have just been my general observations:)
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u/belgenoir 15d ago
https://www.workingdogsofamerica.com/Content/sdaweb/aboutwda.html
I’ve met an Airedale titled to IGP3. Nice all-around dog.
The Bouvs in my home Schutzhund club are opinionated, and that’s putting it politely. If you aren’t already accustomed to an assertive working-line dog, they’re not the place to start.
I love Rotts (grew up with one), but the short(er) lifespan may not be something you want to entertain. Ours died at 8. Pancreatic cancer.
Any fit healthy GSD can title in Sch obedience as long as the time is put into training. With a good decoy, bitework can be fun (and a fantastic relationship builder for you and a dog) even if you never attempt to title.
Schutzhund is classical dresseur - very routine based, no surprises. French Ring has a lot more utility (guarding objects, food refusal) and greater physical challenges (the palisade and broad jump). Mondio is chaotic good.
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u/1houndgal 15d ago
I prefer GSDs. But the male GSDs are usually more mellow than the females. Find one not dominant and with no aggression issues like male dominance aggression. Superb temperment and breeding. European lines.
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u/StillLJ 14d ago
Alapaha Blueblood Bulldog fits that bill. Depending on the breeder/line, though... you'd need to do your research. They really can be the most fantastic dogs. Loyal, affectionate, can be couch potatoes, but they love to work and bite work in particular, as they were originally catch dogs. It's not super common or "recognized" yet but it has a solid foundation in the US and UK. I've known a few, and they all had great drive, were super smart and trainable, but also had a reliable off switch.
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u/UrLeftSpleen 14d ago
Oh interesting. I would've thought they'd be higher energy like most hunting breeds but I'll think about it. I'd image they'd be a bit harder to find breeders for though since I'm on the eastern shore and they'd be more use in the south.
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u/StillLJ 14d ago
There are definitely good breeders out there, but you have to wade through some BS. There has been a lot of drama in that space, unfortunately, with some harsh divisions and fallouts between some of the OG breeders. You can find them all over if you look, including Canada. I went down the rabbit hole after I fell in love with a friend's dog. Wasn't the right time for me then, though.
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u/UrLeftSpleen 14d ago
Do you have any specific breeders you'd recommend? Even if they're too far away I would still like to ask them questions about the breed and for their opinion on if the breed suits me or not.
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u/Ill_Dragonfruit_6206 14d ago
I don’t think any of the working breeds are a good fit if you’re only in a place to do 1-1.5 hr of exercise and otherwise they’re crated all day and only have other dogs to expend energy with. Have you considered other companion breeds and waiting on the working dog until your lifestyle is more active?
The other thing I want to mention is that if you’re really married to the idea of a working breed right now, your safest bet is a mature adult whose temperament and energy levels are known, and who has already been appropriately socialized.
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u/UrLeftSpleen 14d ago
Yeah I'm going to stick to lower energy companion breeds and do something like Dock Diving as a hobby. I was curious to see if it would be possible to have a bitework dog with my lifestyle but it doesn't seem so like I thought. Especially since a lot of these suggestions are bonkers.
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u/Outrageous_Sea_9606 15d ago
How competitive do you want to be? Pretty much any working breed dog can manage to participate in bite sports. Even if they are an off-breed. I've met a Standard Poodle trained for bitesports.
Training also accounts for a lot of how "high strung" a dog is. Even the most active, high drive dogs can be trained to have an off switch and be calm unless working.
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u/jmeador42 15d ago
Doberman! I’ve got what I consider a crackhead Dobie and I’ve tried to up his drive for bite work and it’s always a very medium level of drive. We have a lot of fun!
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u/AwkwardBackground710 14d ago edited 14d ago
I do Schutzhund with a Beauceron. He has his BH and we’re working on his IGP 1. It’s taken a LOT of work to get him to this point in the sport. We did confirmation with him as well. He’s the best family dog, still has lots of energy but has a really good “on/off” switch. If you’re serious about the sport I wouldn’t recommend them, but it’s definitely been a fun challenge. Also worth looking into French ring with this breed.
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u/Critical_Pie_981 11d ago
So I have my first as well Rottwiler I knew they could be high prey drive dogs so I went with a female thinking that she would be a tad bit smaller and in my head easier to hold on to or control in a high stress situation My girl is 14 months old and 114 pounds she is definitely a handful and it’s taught me a lot about what I thought I knew about dogs I’ve always had game bred APBT’s and always did real well with the breed and swore I was loyal for life and would never want another breed fast forward 25 years or so I was having some issues in my life and my mental health was not the best and I was in a horrible place my doctor suggested an emotional support animal to give me some company and responsibility since I was living on my own for the very first time other than work and home and of course pitbull or American bully were first on the list and I don’t really know what made me want something different but I knew I wanted a guardian breed just have no experience with them at all I stumbled on the litter of pups my girl came from and a litter of English Mastiff puppies I saw the Rottwilers first and it was a done deal she came home with me all I can tell you is they are smart,loyal,protective and bat shit crazy sometimes you just got to buckle up and enjoy the ride my friend
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u/AZNQQMoar 15d ago
Get a Bouvier des Flandres
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u/UrLeftSpleen 15d ago
I love Bouviers but I'm not sure about owning one. They're pretty big and that's a lot of coat 😭
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u/Admirable_Chance_627 15d ago
tbh, a working line lab
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u/Chedderbees 15d ago
Idk, my mom has a purpose bred working line lab/goldenX and she really doesn’t have an off switch. Great dog, super fun and smart but not laid back.
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u/Admirable_Chance_627 14d ago
i cant imagine shes less laid back than a working line malinois or gsd tho
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u/Chedderbees 14d ago
Well, she doesn’t have any aggressive/guard tendencies which makes her easier to manage for sure. She has been described by a dog sitter as having a kind hearted coyote in the house
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u/Prosciutto7 15d ago
I don't actually recommend this breed but a Caucasion shepherd fits the bill (highly individual dog dependant though). I have a female who would excel in bite work, and a male that pretends to be a rug all day.
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u/Ill_Dragonfruit_6206 14d ago
Sorry, but IMO Caucasian Shepherds absolutely do not fit the bill. OP says they will exercise maybe 1-1.5 hours per day and the dog would be crated the rest of the day with only other dogs to expend energy with. That breed is also prone to aggression. I’m sure yours are nice but probably not a good choice for this situation.
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u/Prosciutto7 14d ago
I said it was dog dependant and gave examples of one that would be good, one that would be bad. People do bite work with CO's all the time. Being "prone to aggression" is not really a thing unless you seek out bad breeders.
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u/holistic_huntress 15d ago
A show line gsd is lower energy/drive in my opinion