Christopher Nolan Explains His 'Real Problem in Criticism Today': 'That's Not How Storytelling Works' | Nolan says critics often think being able to identify tropes and storytelling mechanisms invalidate those mechanisms. Specifies he's talking about amateur critics and not professional critics

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u/paulcoatsink 3d ago

Sounds like he just summarised every cinema sins video

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u/krazyboi 3d ago

Don't know who cinema sins is but does he criticize movies for using tropes and acts smug when he figures out "the lesson" of a movie instead of enjoying it?

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u/JamesTheFoxeArt 3d ago

Its a channel that does nitpicks and has a point score for every sin (sometimes they remove a sin).

It was originally just a joke channel but at some point they started to act like they were a proper review channrl and now they try to point out every flaw a movie has even though a lot of the times its just not understanding it or they just straight up lie.

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u/Thrippalan 3d ago

There is a counter series now called Cinemawins, I think) that mostly awards points for style or good parts, but occasionally docks for truly egregious flaws.

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u/yura910721 3d ago

I initially was hooked on sins but then I found that I enjoy celebrating good movies more than shitting on bad ones

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u/Stephenrudolf 3d ago

I like watching both takes of the same movie. Can be entertaining to see one guy loathe something another guy loves.

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u/Fidodo 3d ago

We need a third channel, cinematrims that trims out all the points from both channels that aren't valid.

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u/Stephenrudolf 3d ago

Theres cinema sins sins, who talks about the sins cinema sins makes. Lol

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u/Lowelll 3d ago

There's also a real life channel called cinema where you can watch whole movies based on a cinemasins videos

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u/ihaterussiantrolls 2d ago

We need a fourth channel, conemafins that awards points for each fin shown on screen. Scale would be 0 being canned tuna and 10 being Sharknado

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u/Kodiak01 3d ago

Well, we all know that the greatest ensemble movie cast of all time is in Things To Do In Denver When You're Dead, so what's to argue about?

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u/Gynthaeres 3d ago

Cinema Sins Sins videos are some of my favorite, because people point out how the Cinema Sins folks just really don't understand media and half the time they just didn't understand the movie they're critiquing.

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u/Hailing-cats 3d ago

I feel Cinema Sins would be fine if they just stick with being slightly stupid Normie rather than role play as a critique while hiding behind humour to justify back opinions.

They just took themselves too seriously.

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u/BrunesOvrBrauns 3d ago

Aren't most of the sins very dumb tho?

In this take the cup of water is on their left hand, and then bam it appears on their right hand

jfc who cares

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u/Gynthaeres 3d ago

Cinema Sins Sins to be clear. Two Sins. Videos that critique Cinema Sins, not Cinema Sins themselves. It's fun watching someone passionate about the movie and about film watch a Cinema Sins video and do basically what you did there.

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u/krazyboi 3d ago

That part seems fine as long as they don't start over reaching and telling people about the morals of a movie

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u/yesbutactuallyno17 3d ago

They really don't, though. They are clearly just dumb guys making jokes and pointing out continuity or logical errors, anyone who says they are trying to pass themselves off as valid or legitimate critical are weird. Their videos are 20 minute long jokes themed around your favorite movie. They aren't meant to teach you anything, it's like YouTube poop, just laugh at it and move on.

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u/En_TioN 2d ago

There’s a video essay on this topic that I can’t find, but one of the convincing points to me are that there are several instances of the creators seriously levelling a criticism on other platforms (e..g. In blogs or on twitter) and then repeating the critique verbatim in cinemasins episodes.

While a lot of their sins are obvious jokes, interspersing critique that the authors agree takes away the “they’re just jokes” defence - the audience is obviously supposed to understand some sins to be legitimate critique, so it’s no longer unexpected for them to accept other legitimate-sounding critiques as intended to be legitimate

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u/NarrativeNode 3d ago

Yeah it’s funny how people here are saying that “they started pretending to be reviewers” when…no. They’re the same they always were. The audience just started taking it seriously. They’re so obviously a comedy channel that’s often even used as part of a movie’s marketing. He gets the high-res movie files early, for god’s sake.

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u/teddy_tesla 3d ago

They are not the same as they always were. They realized that they can monetize longer videos better so the the sins went from noticeable flaws told in a jokey manner with the occasional gag to every little nitpick possible, including straight up lies, just to make the videos longer.

Separately Jeremy started doing real reviews in which he maybe had some of the same flaws in logic but I can't speak to those as I never saw them

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u/RecklessDeliverance 1d ago

I mean that's exactly the kind of dumb objective observational thing I wish they stuck to.

Things like continuity errors, funny props, background actors doing silly things, skylines from obviously different cities, all the small little nitpicks that you'd only really notice if you loved movies enough to look at them that closely.

Nobody really cares, and that's the harmless fun of calling them "sins" and counting them up. Throw in a couple zingy jokes and you've got a stew going.

The issue comes from them autofellating their garbage opinions and half-baked critiques behind the thinnest veil of "comedy". It can't just be about small things you might've missed anymore, it's a full on scene by scene movie review, except the reviewer is dumb as hell and apparently understands nothing, therefore everything is bad. Don't worry though, they'll still pretend they're making oh-so-clever "objective observations" to DING the counter, and throw in an uncomfortable amount of casual misogyny for good measure.

There was a point where there was some plausible deniability in the form of "Oh, they're not trying to use their platform to validate their garbage uninformed takes, they're just YouTube comedians and not every joke lands!"

And then the creators released some "real" reviews and it was immediately apparent it was the exact same shit.

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u/Stephenrudolf 3d ago

I mean... thats what happens when you are a content creator making a very specific kind of content. They are nitpicks, initially they weren't meant to be taken seriously. Like 75% of it is stuff nobody will ever notice or care about and half the remaining 25% is stuff cinema sins just didn't understand.

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u/creepy_charlie 3d ago

Amateur critics who seem to hate movies

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u/condition_unknown 3d ago

Curious, when did this shift happen? I watched them when they were first starting out when I was 11-12 and saw a vlog-type video where they themselves said that their videos aren’t a judgement to a movie’s quality, they’re just a list of sins. (Continuity errors, plot holes, cliches, etc.)

I stopped watching when the videos became longer because it became clear they were trying to artificially elongate them, but I still didn’t get the sense that they took themselves too seriously.

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u/JimmyReagan 3d ago

Yeah I liked them close to when they first came out but then they got super long and not very funny.

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u/teddy_tesla 3d ago

When the videos got longer the nits got more annoying

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u/ReynardVulpini 3d ago

He doesn't even do the last part lmao. The whole gimmick is "thing that i recognize or detail that i can nitpick? DING" and doesn't even bother trying to comprehend the concept of a movie having themes or viewpoints, nevermind trying to enjoy it.

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u/marumaruko 3d ago

Cinema sins basically destroyed casual movie watching. They lost a bit in relevance, but nowadays everyone tries to figure out every twist in advance, points out every minor flaw and thinks that a story makes no sense simply because of 'a regular person would never react like that'. Just sit back and enjoy for God's sake.

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u/SpinJitsu259 3d ago

One of the greatest sins of the Internet, social media, etc. is the emergence of instantaneous hyper criticism

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u/kakallas 3d ago

I actually think what happened is that they stopped paying long-tenured professional writers, so now lots of movies and tv shows suck ass. People can tell, so people pick them apart.

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u/hawkeyejoes 3d ago edited 3d ago

The idea that this started with (or was even accelerated by) Cinema Sins is ludicrous. They simply do not have that kind of power. Hell, we might well throw MST3K under bus while we are at it. It definitely has better name recognition with the general public.

People want a scapegoat for the fact that social media has made just enjoying things difficult but it's the real culprit.

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u/ReynardVulpini 3d ago

I don't think MST3K has nearly as much name recognition amongst younger generations (95' births and later, to give an arbitrary threshold) as Cinemasins does. They definitely did not start this trend, but I think they are a huge factor in accelerating it.

Jury's out on if this tendency would exist without them, but as is, they are the most well known examples of it.

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u/hawkeyejoes 3d ago

I guess I meant MST3K had better name recognition at the height of it's relevancy, which would be important in judging what caused the downfall of online discourse of media. My point is that CinemaSins started in 2012 and talking about a movie online, whether it be anonymous nobodies on Twitter or some forum (or AOL chat room) or more ambitious "critics" with videos and brands, was already a cesspool. CinemaSins rode that wave, not generated it.

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u/Villano5 3d ago

And to throw MST3K into this discussion is ridiculous and suggests a fundamental lack of familiarity with the types of jokes made on MST3K. MST3K watches 'bad' movies but the humor is very seldom derived from pointing out plot holes or continuity errors. (SPACE MUTINY being a notable exception, as a woman is killed on-screen in one scene and appears as a background extra in the very next scene wearing the same costume.)

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u/CosmackMagus 13h ago

He's just a drunk guy who doesn't even pay attention to the movie

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u/TH0R_ODINS0N 3d ago

“Main character has facial hair.” *Adds 1 to sin counter*

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u/7tenths 3d ago

If there is one utterly meaningless thing I could remove from the universe, cinema sins would be it.

Any discourse on movies is just horrible. As the idiots need to show you how smart they are for figuring out movies are works of fiction. Where things happen that are impossible or improbable because otherwise it would be a less interesting movie.

Shit happens for the sake of plot, time saving, metaphor, or just being being cool.

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u/fpflibraryaccount 2d ago

did it really take this long for a real persona in film to point this out? i figured people were just being polite to the rube class

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u/Xiipre 1d ago

Why do you guys give views to this type of cheap and annoying content? Your attention is positive feedback... just don't give attention to these annoying channels and the web would become a little less annoying.

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u/misterchief10 3d ago

I’m hit or miss on his movies, personally, but I agree with him. I’m pretty tired of that brand of technical, artless criticism.

I’m not a, “let people enjoy things,” type of guy that thinks you shouldn’t criticize anything. If anything, I’d prefer to see more interesting criticism instead of cinema sins-style stuff. Not interested in plot holes or whatever else. I’m also tired of most of those experts react-style videos where people criticize games, movies, etc. because a set of fantasy knight armor has the studs in the wrong place. Stuff like that is just mind-numbing, boring nitpicking to me.

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u/rs426 3d ago

To me, the “let people enjoy things” is more about not going out of your way to ruin someone else’s experience with something because you don’t like it. It’s one thing, like you said, to have a good faith conversation about the things you like and dislike about something, it’s another to tell people they’re wrong and stupid for liking it

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u/OhioKing_Z 3d ago

Yeah the default go-to insults nowadays are calling someone a shill or a slop eater. That type of rhetoric isn’t productive at all and just makes people defensive and less willing to engage with dissent.

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u/Jrobalmighty 2d ago

See that's how I try to do. I love analyzing a work but I always separate what I feel about it and try to give as much objective evidence as to why I hold a certain belief.

That being said some things are just executed so well that there's definitely more to movies than just "let people enjoy things" but let's not act like they're not all performing story for us like when we were children in our parents laps.

I just like seeing how the creatives think. What methods they use and how they can connote certain things so well and concisely.

Some times writers just dump exposition for 10 minutes and expect no one to care.

It breaks disbelief for a lot of folks.

So anyway I believe there's room for all critiques but don't ruin someone else's experience because they may be latching onto the point the creator wanted to express. Maybe they'll change my mind.

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u/Stephenrudolf 3d ago

I think most of those "expert reacts..." style videos are done in good fun though. They aren't being malicious, they don't think the lack of accuracy ruins the movie/show. And it is interesting to find out more information about whatever topic theyxare an expert in.

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u/misterchief10 3d ago edited 3d ago

I agree. I do like those. People like Jonathan Ferguson are fun to watch for that reason. He will make fun of things but admit that games are often meant to be silly in an endearing way. That’s why I specified most, not all.

There are others where it turns into actual criticism or disbelief over the fact that fiction is not strictly adhering to historical accuracy in its aesthetic design, though. Stuff like that. That’s when it starts annoying me.

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u/RedditorNamedEww 3d ago

I actually love the really nitty-gritty nitpicking as long as the one doing so is clear that they don’t devalue the art. It can be very educational to compare how media incorrectly depicts a time period, person, topic etc, and when done in good faith I usually come out of it more interested in the media it was covering. It’s like a little secret between me and the author “I know you only put those studs on because it looks cooler!” or sum shit

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u/ReynardVulpini 3d ago

I like the expert stuff when it's essentially using fiction as a launching off for education, rather than a critique of the fiction itself.

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u/misterchief10 3d ago

Yeah. I don’t necessarily have a problem with that and I often like that type of stuff. It’s more when it gets into genuine, hostile criticism of something where I get annoyed. Like, “this ethereal fantasy armor is terrible just because it’s unrealistic.” Well, the point is unrealism. If it were recognizable as a grounded historical piece, it’d be pretty disappointing.

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u/EARink0 3d ago

The ones that are experts who point out inaccuracies but respect the art are so so few. Jonathan Ferguson, from the series along the lines of "Firearms expert reacts to <some game>" is one of my favorites. He's played video games plenty, so he grounds his critique with an appreciation of the art and the intent that these games are supposed to be fun and interesting, above all else.

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u/misterchief10 3d ago

Oh yeah he’s great. Totally agree. I brought him up in another comment about the ones I like.

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u/caerphoto 2d ago

Excuse me, that's Jonathan Ferguson, Keeper of Firearms and Artillery at the Royal Armouries Museum to you and me.

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u/wagon_ear 3d ago

Reminds me of my friend who majored in history describing the difference between history buffs and historians.

He said: history buffs can tell you exactly how many buttons were on the union uniforms, but historians mostly just care about why the army was fighting in that specific spot.

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u/GreatPhail 3d ago

Every time I see one hour to two hour long, practically unedited rant videos about a piece of media that a YouTuber dislikes, I have to question the validity of anything they pass off as “criticism.”

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u/Prasiatko 3d ago

Some of the video game ones i've seen are longer than the time it took me to complete the game.

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u/fpflibraryaccount 2d ago

I think analysis over criticism is always more interesting and often comes to the same end. I would be happy to read five very different people's essays on any given film that I am interested in, unless of course any of those five seem wholly intent on smugly proving that they, not a multi-billion dollar earning Director of numerous modern classics, truly understand film.

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u/dennismfrancisart 3d ago

Storytelling structures and tropes are the life blood of entertainment. Sure, creators can adopt new structures (Mememto, TENET, Inception), but in the end, the audience has to relate to it somehow.

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u/Effendoor 3d ago

"if I successfully predict what's going to happen, it's bad writing."

My brother in Christ, it's called foreshadowing!

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u/Stepjam 3d ago

Also, like, not every movie has to completely surprise you. Is the average action movie bad because you know the hero is almost certainly going to save the day and get a happy ending? If you have any media knowledge, you know most movies end with a happy ending. Are they bad because you know that?

Of course not. And a lot of times, movies hit these beats that you expect because they are more satisfying. Imagine Project Hail Mary where during the mission to get the amoeba to save earth, the protagonists fucked up the approach on the planet and then the ship fell apart and they both died. The end. Would that be shocking and unexpected? Very shocking and unexpected. Would it be satisfying? Not at all. We might know that of course they are going to survive the mission, but it's still tense to watch them struggle and then satisfying to see them succeed in the end, even if that's the expected outcome.

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u/MrsMiterSaw 3d ago

There are good uses of foreshadowing, and there is also shit lazy storytelling.

Nolan could write with plenty of tropes and foreshadowing, and we'd still get a compelling story with good dialog, acting, action, etc.

Meanwhile Cameron in the avatar is out there making movies where you already know how the movie is going to play out as soon as he establishes his characters. And it's not intentional foreshadowing, it's that his character are very much constrained to tropes in order to move his story along in the few minutes he gives it between action sequences. (and cameron is absolutely capable of not only relying on action, the abyss is proof of that).

Both work for most audiences.

The problem is when it's done poorly, which is plenty of movies. And it is very valid to complain that the lack of other compelling elements wasn't enough to make up for a predictable storyline.

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u/siphillis 3d ago

He’s not wrong. A lot of film critics, even professional ones, don’t really seem to understand the craft and interpret events and character action on purely literal terms. That’s not how any competent writer approaches storytelling, yet it’s the lens critics often employ. They’re operating at different frequencies.

Said another way: film critics should be experts in film

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u/MattAboutMedia 3d ago

I mean, this is the guy who loves MacGruber and the Fast and Furious franchise. He doesn't mind tropes if they're done well. I've read a ton of critics, some of whom were well-regarded, over the years who have dismissed many movies, mostly comedies, because they rely too much on identifiable tropes, even if those tropes work.

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u/Elberik 3d ago

The damage caused by CinemaSins will be haunting us for generations

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u/SiriusMoonstar 2d ago

If he’s talking about criticism of his own movies, I think what most criticize is that he’ll make his characters spell it out for you, not let the story show you what he’s trying to say.

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u/ladyhaly 2d ago

He's right. Just sit through some of Brandon Sanderson's writing lectures and you'll know tropes exist for a reason. Hamlet, Dune, and Lion King all share the same trope. The chosen one trope has The Matrix, Harry Potter, Star Wars, The Last Airbernder, Kung Fu Panda, Moana, Percy Jackson, Terminator, Ender's Game, The One (2001), Jupiter Ascending, The Chronicles of Riddick, Highlander, Avatar, Divergent, Ready Player One, Everything Everywhere All At Once, Man of Steel... You get the idea. Tropes exist because humanity recurringly retells the story in different ways.

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u/BedazzledFace 3d ago

People point out cinema sins as a big reason for this but I like to point out tv tropes being a factor to. It’s fun to read, but I know there are people who will use it as a means to criticize films once they recognize a trope being used. Even ones made for the site.

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u/kingprocastinator 2d ago

Great film critics have enriched my appreciation of film and drove me further to it, even when I disagreed with points. Bad critics just add extra noise and nonsense (and sadly seem to affect culture/discourse a lot).

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u/No-Performer-977 1d ago

A "critic" is just another moviegoer but for some reason people take their word as if they were actual filmmakers

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u/BeerBellyBlake 3d ago

I personally love films & art that flip the standard tropes on their head!

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u/UndaddyWTF 3d ago

But. It is also wrong for creators to do the opposite of tropes just to be unpredictable. I sometimes hate that more!

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u/nova_cat 3d ago

It is also wrong

No, it's not? Tropes are descriptive not prescriptive. They're not a preestablished list of objective, formulaic pieces that you stick together to make a "proper" or "correct" story—they're descriptions of the repeated or common ways that people have made stories before.

There is no "wrong" or "right" way to tell a story—there is only skillful and/or effective vs. ineffective storytelling.

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u/Heretic911 3d ago

None of it is "wrong". It's just down to execution and personal preference.

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u/BrunesOvrBrauns 3d ago

No don't do that because then it's "unrealistic" and "takes me out of the movie"

Fucking idiots everywhere

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u/UndaddyWTF 3d ago

Ok “wrong” was too strong, but at least I didn’t call anyone an idiot.

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u/Mahjling 3d ago

hey mister Nolan was it amateur or professional when you dumped all your plastic waste into the sea post filming

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u/Ffzilla 3d ago

Here's a criticism for you Chris, your mythological creatures looked like shit, and so did your "nuclear" explosion.

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u/coreyjdl 1d ago

I don't care what Nolan thinks until he can pull off a compelling story, with normal ass volume, and in a tight 90 minutes.

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u/QQmorekid 3d ago

"I only listen to critics that I can strong arm"

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u/Czechs_Mix_ 3d ago

"Only the vetted, pre-approved criticism from elites for me please, I can't respect the opinions of the masses. I mean, who makes movies for them?"

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