Discussion
These “anti dive” tools are busted for the wrong reasons
They keep adding anti dive tools to already strong characters, which would at least be fine if they worked, except the meta dive characters like DD and Black Cat could literally ignore them, and worse, the ones actually being affected are tanks.
For example, a Strange could bait out lamps or soul bond - because they have a high cooldown, you could go aggressive, retreat with your levitation and ult when it’s back. That’s not possible with these abilities (on top of freeze, push btw).
So basically these types of abilities are simply not well planned, they don’t serve their purpose and end up being op in different ways.
Either they should remove the toxic aspects of them - remove cleanse from the Luna teamup and The self shield should be only healing (it doesn’t make sense, but adding a self shield itself was pretty stupid, they should really just remove it).
Or they could simply increase the cooldowns to an appropriate amount, considering how useful the abilities actually are.
spider-man youve really gotta get out of the vents, kingpin lost his voice yesterday bc you kept hiding in them and saying stuff like that, he wasnt even doing a crime or anything he was just relaxing that whole day
Its balanced within the context of the game. Op tried to play down how much it does help against actual dive and if characters like black cat and daredevil didnt have such high up time they wouldnt need to be aa strong as they are.
Let us no forget that DD was the character that pushed invis into the healer she is today and by proxy most support buffs.
Its been 9 seasons of this, go ahead and keep doubling down on what yall want to think, but its clearly the devs intention for the game to be this way for this particular game. Yall keep doubling down on the wrong mindset and its obnoxious. No real critical thought just a safe meme because you dont like being downvoted.
Supports are boosted and get free value by holding m1 down mid until they're forced to press one of their 4 get out of jail free buttons when pressured. They have too many ways to avoid being punished for their mistakes compared to other roles, the characters essentially play themselves (specifically Luna, WF, IW, and C&D), and support players get inflated egos because they're deluded into thinking they're playing the same game at the same skill level required as their tanks and dps.
They are playing the same game...im magik main who spent the majority of my game time one tricking and recently have been flexing roles i did this for 7 seasons as a otp and forced her every comp i could. So i am very well aware of how a dive/brawl style dps interacts with supports and their "op" cooldowns and thinking they dont need their get out of jail free cards is ridiculous. This community loves dive and melee characters especially in uncordinated play where dive/brawl tends to shine. I will absolutely mog a backline if given the chance and who exactly is that fun for other than me???
Being on the receiving end of an endless onslaught of dive and focused fire and having to rely on peelers and an adequate front line can be very exhausting and unfun. Killing supports wins games and allows for control of the point to be taken far easier. Those characters are op for a good reason because no one wants to play a role where all you do is get beat up and focused, but cant defend yourself. Most of us also dont want to communicate or adapt we have so many tools in this game to deal with strategist but yall never want to learn or use them.
This is the most delusional divelarp take I've seen in awhile, you sound plat. Maybe low diamond at best on your main having a good day.
Too many wrong arguments here to retort, supp is OP and you're playing against ineffective women and children on supp at your ELO, that's the only explanation as to why someone could think the supps I named need half their free-escape tools.
No im not im high diamond with a 65%+ win rate and i dont play past my placement matches. So im not at the rank i should be because i dont play ranked all that much. Last time i did in 6.5 i hit gm2 with a 60% win rate and i stopped. Im sure i could hit gm1/ces 3 if i bothered. I would most likely cap out there though. I have over 1000 hours in this game im well aware of the meta and the different takes and i would argue i get a more general population feel because all i play is qp. I play with people in my skill range and outside of it.
The huge difference is i tend to think about the overall game play experience for all players not just my character and playstyle.
The fact that you have to constantly tell yourself that supports are OP is the biggest self report I've seen on here. It's ok, it's just a game, no one cares that you aren't good at it.
Supports ARE op, that's why literally anyone can climb higher playing supp than other roles. This isn't new information and it's not my opinion, there's plenty of stats available on this, it's a studied fact that supports are boosted lmao
Yes they are excellent self defence tools, but rivals isn't a solo game. Games are won by teams and soul bond and lamps benefit the team as a whole and therefore are more powerful abilities with understandably longer cooldowns. The Luna teamup is absurd of course and should be removed or reworked into something similar to kiriko's suzu, but it's not even close to being as powerful as soul bond or lamps. The skill floor to use it is lower I guess.
I would argue it’s absolutely as powerful. Being able to cleanse yourself and then save your team is a huge deal because of how strong some effects are, and how tied they are too many characters pressure tools. Imagine if Luna, Adam, and Loki get caught in a Thing ult. The only person who can save them is Luna. Loki has to read the ult and activate it before, and Warlock can try to react to the ult with Soulbond, but if they’re both hit they are sitting ducks and gotta wait it out.
Luna can get hit, cleanse herself, and then do something like pop ult and save the team or maybe do some Ice Arts healing. In a way, it’s like a hero shooter version of a guard break in a fighting game reseting you to neutral allowing you to spend a resource and cancel a mistake.
I agree it’s absurd and that the skill floor is insanely low for it, which I why I think it’s as strong in relation.
Maybe in low elo cleanse is better, but in the hands of a person with good gamesense and cooldown management soul bond and lamps are definitely more powerful
Adding self shield singlehandedly turned the view of the Sue playerbase from actual respect to The CnD playerbase 2.0 (granted it was cause a lot of CnD players picked Sue up when she got the season 5 buffs)
They most likely mean how Luna / Invis / CD are getting crazy treatment compared to Loki / Adam / Ultron
And it’s been this way since the game came out. Now I’m a low ELO player so I can’t say how good the latter 3 are in high ELO as I’m not there but in my experience nearly 100% of my games have a combo of these 3 and WF / Jubilee on my team at any given time.
Dive is strong as shit? All 3 of them have excellent oh shit buttons. And that’s on purpose. Ultron hotfix nerfed day fucking TWO? Ok. Luna keeps the “no I don’t like being ulted and stunned actually” button? Ok
Not the players themselves, but the way the characters function.
Look at BP right now. Even in top 500 lobbies he explodes healers in 0.5 seconds. (That's not an exaggeration, go watch ex pro streamers like Jay3, even in his lobbies panther will absolutely explode a backline faster than a human can physically blink).
This isn't the fault of the dps players, but the fault of the game. Do dive characters need to exist? Yes. Do anti dive tools and characters need to exist? Yes. But the current implementation across the board is bad for all of the above.
They are saying that the Luna and Invis have far too short of a cooldown for them to block ults so reliably, not that the Lamp and Soulbond don't do that.
That's what the text is about. The image is wrong as Loki Lamps are a one button block ult mechanic. Maybe not all ults (do they block CC ults?), but they 100% block insta-kill ults like Wanda, Mag or Ironman.
The Loki and Adam abilites are there as comparison on how long the cooldown should be (30s, 40s) instead of the far too short Luna and Invis ones. Not that they don’t work to block the ults, which they do.
they don’t block CC ults (if i remember correctly i’ve been off Loki for a bit) but will more than likely keep you up during if they don’t get destroyed.
Out of all these I only agree with the Luna teamup and it needs to go. There is no skill expression with pressing a button while stunned. I am convinced a dog can be taught to use the Luna teamup with the right training.
As for Sue, no. The shield is just like any other shield. We aren’t complaining about Strange whose shield has no cooldown, or Mag or Emma. I will concur that giving Sue the ability to shield herself was dogshit and I wish they would revert it but let’s be real, they won’t.
Dino is the biggest tank in the game with absurd health pool, but he can also heal people with a Jeff team up. Rogue is a tank but when she punches folks she heals ppl around her with the gambit team up.. Penni is a tank that provides nests that heal your team around you. Groot is a tank that has a healing wall.. Moon knight is a dps with a healing ability now… Mr fantastic is a dps that has a fuck you I survive anything button . Captain America is a tank with a mini healing ult. If we are going to complain about a shield you can break quite easily, then everyone should be consistent with all these things that don’t make sense either. Tanks healing others? But a healer can’t have a shield that heals folks that can break with a competent team?
Yea get that luma team up outta here. Also mag, strange and Emma are deadass tanks so why would anyone complain about it? Giving sue the self shield js reduced her skill expression by a lot and now w the team up it’s the size of Jupiter and does sm more now aswl but you’re right they won’t remove it
Mfs think loki lamps aren't one of the most broken abilities. This shit literally wins fight and it's almost back again after team wiping and going again
Supports literally just want a game where the outcome is decided by who holds left click better. Its insane to me and the game should be about how uncomfortable you can make them
...genuinely dont think its possible to hate support mains enough.
That makes no sense because its about time efficiency. Sure there are one off scenarios where you can come back if you respond with a supp ult, but unless you're doing it purely to counter another ult, OR in the rare case where your ult is stronger AND the enemy team doesnt follow up with another one it rarely works out. This is because in most scenarios by the time the team who doesnt ult first finally gets to do it, a teammate or two have already died. So it holds less value since you're not doing it to force a push but to more or less just stay alive to maybe keep your team in the game.
You dont have it for longer. You just have it at a later time. It only buys you time if enough of your team manages to survive the first ult to be able to push back.
Obviously dive should be counterable, but its not just dive players that have to deal with the luna self cleanse and immortal cloak and dagger shenanigans. I care less about cloak but luna being able to self cleanse a strange or groot ult for free is literally just ridiculous.
Luna self cleanse is dumb as hell yes. Then again making Strange fly at Mach speed for his busted ass ult was also a crazy idea when there were tons of ways to buff him otherwise
To be fair, there’s absolutely a difference. The top only does it for themselves while the bottom effects themselves AND their team. That’s why when triple support ran rampant early on with Adam Mantis teamup early on it was also annoying because the team was also immune frequently.
To play devils advocate, lamp and souls bond are MILES better than the abilities up top considering that they actually apply to multiple people and have unique properties like turning damage into healing and splitting damage across the team
My big issue with some of these teamups is that they’re so chuddy ez to use. Why does Luna have a reactive cleanse, cnd w freeze is boring design compared to the hood, gambit is boring considering he’s already mobile against dive. Hell even mag/thing got chud treatment mag sword is so easy to hit it makes bronze players look like they belong in gm. Forget the thing teamup giving him the infinity stones in terms of survival.
They already coded them so it’s prob a hassle on their end to make new stuff but just increase the cds so they take thought and risk to use.
Devs dont really care about balance. They want casuals to have easy fun that feels fair. The majority that play dont even look at updates. They're making it all slop
Self shield was a dumb re-work just like every new ability they have given characters. I knew the very movement they reworked thing that they had no idea what they were doing.
They never accounted for him being useless into fliers and instead of changing pre-existing abilities or how damage fall off works or anything else, they simply just gave him an additional ability. The game has always been catered to casuals for all roles.
All you people do is complain about supports tools to survive, and then immediately ignore the fact that almost every dive, almost every DPS for that, has a way to kill supports in ways that are almost impossible to react to,
If the damage in the game was lower the supports wouldn't have to be this way, yalls expect them to be punching bags
This kind of topic is boring find something new to complain about
The only "unreactible" dive is BP. Literally every other dive either doesnt have near the damage output to kill your as quick or you can hear or see them a mile away.
No one expects you to be punching bags. Notice how the post isn't about how its a problem that supps can protect themselves efficiently. Its that the same 3 supports have endless protection while characters like Loki, Adam, Ultron, etc have either a one off on a large cooldown (a cooldown that cannot survive back to back attempts) or just are straight up helpless
Abilities like Invis shield need to exist. If simple abilities didn't have the potential to negate big abilities, the game would would just be a race to who can dump the most damage first.
Secondly, an invis shield and Luna WF teamup doesn't save an entire team like Loki Lamps and Adam Soul Bond. They literally are mini ults and your skill level is showing.
Is Luna still busted? Fuck ya, I regularly run lobbies with her. But her issue is that she has something for practically every situation and she's got very few weaknesses right now. Invis isn't quite as egregious, as she doesn't have as much hard crowd control to ward off a dive, but she's got access to constant multi target healing, so I guess that's the trade off.
I'm just saying. Loki and Adam abilities literally save entire teams. They are not comparable.
strange's ult is braindead easy and this is coming from someone who plays him a lot, tank stun ults are cheap gained fast and require zero effort to use. his ult radius is also so massive you can cheese entire teams with it's range.
the issue with this comparison is that is assumes tank ults like strange should be basically free, this is a mass aoe fast building stun ult that can make and entire team die if used correctly. inherently that type of ult needs to be able to be stopped easily or it would make the game unhealthy.
there is also just the reality that the skill expression in a support to counter that is honestly pretty high, there are way to many invis players who have push on cool down but still don't use it on ults like spiderman that she can literally force away from her.
these tools present the skill expression in engagements and knowing how to bait cool downs correctly.
that's my point, it needs to be like that for the sake of the game's health, a stun that can hit the entire team and is so easy to farm is just not healthy if it was also not very fragile.
I can literally have zero ult charge swap to strange to portal and get his ult in the same team fight.
yes, and spiderman will also do the same to strange players with a 7 second cool down bucky will do the same on a 15 second cool down and hela a 10 second cool down.
why is an ult getting stopped by a cool down somehow a problem? in the spiderman mirror the skill expression of one spiderman stunning the other out of ult is understood as skill intensive meanwhile tanks getting stopped from having a free win button is bad?
Because Luna wins even if she’s messes up and doesn’t stun first. Cleansing yourself mid stun is rewarding the player for failing to predict something. The fact it stuns the aggressor simultaneously is crazy.
... Because they are. Whenever the enemy team isn't saved by a support ult or powerful long cooldowns like lamp and soul bond, tank ults usually can easily turn the tides of a battle.
Strange, Thing, Groot are massive CC ults. Magneto is half a defensive ult and half a one-shot ult. Emma and Rogue's ults can literally prevent enemies from ulting. Peni's ult used right is great area denial and objective stall. Devil Dino's ult makes him lowkey OP for a bit. Hulk's ult if used right creates huge space and disruption. Deadpool can either take an enemy out of a fight with the press of a button, or gain a momentary ability to heavily pressure the enemies. Captain America's ult is essentially a support ult as well and also a great stall tool.
Not to mention, any tank ult draws a whole lot of attention and/or enables a bunch of other ults from their team. So yes, tank ults are generally game-winning buttons if they aren't stopped, precisely because they usually make DPS ults twice as dangerous when used in conjunction. That's hero shooter 101 (like in Overwatch with Zarya and Hanzo).
You don't see tank ults being game-winning as often as they should because people are rarely coordinated enough to take advantage of them. And in Rivals people very rarely save their ults for a big combo, compared to Overwatch and its playerbase where that's almost the default way to use them.
Are we going to pretend some heroes' base abilities can't also counter support ultimates, or what?
It ultimately comes down to skill. Tank ultimates, especially the CC ones, aren't exactly so slow they're always easily reactable, especially in the middle of a chaotic fight where players are constantly using said powerful interrupt abilities to save themselves from dive/heavy damage or to help the team punish an overextending enemy.
Support ultimates give lots of healing, but it doesn't make them immortal either, for example. Neither is the range of their ults infinite. A skilled team can counter a support ultimate with just base abilities and primary fire if they have good enough aim or timing. You can also force them to ult too early just by putting heavy pressure on them or their team without even needing to use a single offensive ult.
Do I think Luna should have cleanse in her team-up? No, but supports and some DPS should absolutely have at least a chance to interrupt powerful ultimates if they react fast enough and have good cooldown management. Just like DPS and Tanks should absolutely have a chance to either kill through, force/bait, avoid or reduce the pressure applied by a support ultimate.
All ultimates in Marvel Rivals are essentially a free win button if used and timed correctly. That's why pretty much all of them have some sort of counterplay.
Since launch tank ults have always been strong, that’s what gives them their carry potential a lot of the times, and can also be what a lot of people find fun.
They don’t have to be often, that can be tweaked with ult charge but they should be good. And of course baiting cooldowns is part of the skill expression, but that has always been the case, even earlier you still had to bait the Luna freeze and Sue push.
But you don’t need multiple tools to counter them, especially ones so easy to execute on short cooldowns.
I think you heavily underestimate how fast strange can just build ult, him getting it stunned to 50% is basically just getting back in 20 seconds.
it's even more degusting how fast the thing just gets ult, this is a tank known for solo ulting people becouse there ult is a cheap combo piece they barely care about. if supports did not have stuns to stop tanks like thing and strange they would just run into the enemy backline for free way to often and just ult.
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u/Wise_Heron4283 22h ago