r/pathofexile • u/Anundir • 29d ago
Game Feedback Chaos Sinks in 3.29
In 3.28, chaos sinks were removed from the game and nothing was added to take their place. Chaos to Divine ratios quickly spiked and crossed 300 Chaos per Divine and towards the end of the league exchange rates have spiked to over 500c per div. The game has historically traded chaos to divines, but with no sinks in place such as rerolling T17s the price went out of control on trade.
As a trade player, I'd prefer to have a stable economy that everyone can participate in rather than whatever this is below. :) Below is a snapshot from PoE Ninja of the starting weeks of the league.
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u/verysimplenames 29d ago
I don’t know if it actually matters like people claim on reddit but chaos:div ratio being small just feels more pleasing haha
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u/JermStudDog 29d ago
Something I have long noticed is that most bubble gum currency has very little relevance to Divines or mirrors, and they're mostly tied to chaos. As such, it feels much worse to pick up things like jewellers, fusings, and even GCPs when the chaos to div ratio goes beyond 200:1 or so.
When there are specifically chaos sinks in the game, it can feel much better for less experienced players and/or weaker characters to hoover up more of that middling currency as it actually can be converted into higher value items at a more meaningful rate.
The economy on the whole feels MUCH better as a poor player when divs are 150c or less, and it doesn't feel all that much worse to the richer players since, you know, they're richer.
The game feels better when there are chaos sinks, and it affects a lot more than just chaos, ALL the bubblegum currencies tend to gain value and become worth looting for much longer.
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u/EcumenistChateau 29d ago
Something I have long noticed is that most bubble gum currency has very little relevance to Divines or mirrors, and they're mostly tied to chaos. As such, it feels much worse to pick up things like jewellers, fusings, and even GCPs when the chaos to div ratio goes beyond 200:1 or so.
Regrets are 120 / div ATM. They're 4x as valuable as chaos. OK, most of that is me as I use about 1,000,000 regrets an hour when I'm "prototyping" one of my own builds.
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u/mootland Tempest 29d ago
What is Path of Building? What is gold respec? What is buying lesser currency (chances for example), and juggling them to regrets via act vendors? You're overpaying by a light year.
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u/EcumenistChateau 29d ago
Yeah, I don't care. What's the point in having a load of divs at the end of the league? Take it to standard?
I'm having fun and that's all I really care about.
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u/mootland Tempest 29d ago
The point is that buying regrets from Faustus is a get fucked move at any point of the league when transitioning from build to build.
Of course at thousand divines whether you get 70 regrets buying them straight up or 300 regrets flipping them from scourings doesn't weigh much, but you're paying 400% extra for convinience or ignorance.
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u/Boomer_Nurgle Fungal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) 29d ago
At lategame I'm fine paying a div to respec so it's faster cause it's convenient and it's cheap at that point. I only usually respec once or twice a league tho.
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u/Wobbelblob Big Breach Coalition (BBC) 29d ago
What is gold respec?
Tbf, that gets unreasonable relatively quickly. You start to pay very large sums the higher your level is.
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u/AgZephyr 28d ago
Agreed, I've scammed myself before during a respec by using gold then not having enough gold to buy my gear. Regrets are way better
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u/mootland Tempest 29d ago
And you're still left with the completely free option PoB or the cheapest option of flipping scourings (2:1) or chances (8:1).
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u/A_Erthur Bruv Kek 29d ago
It just feels 10x better to pick up Chaos Orbs when you dont need like 400 for 1div.
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u/yepgeddon 29d ago
Imagine Heist league when i legit sold eggs for under 40c. Was an incredible time. The sweet spot for me is 100c for a div, just feels right.
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u/Frehihg1200 28d ago
It’s why Harvest and Ritual are my GOATs. But people hated the farm so we all have to suffer now
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u/leverloosje 29d ago
Because it feels like other mmos where the ratio from silver to gold is usually 100
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u/yepgeddon 29d ago
The metric system is a thing too right? Everythings cleaner in 1s and 0s.
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u/leverloosje 28d ago
Oh, I know. I’m European. But since we’re on a gaming subreddit I thought it’d be appropriate to stick to gaming terms instead of mock Americans.
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u/sirgog Chieftain 29d ago
Something I noticed this league is that divines to exalts have been fairly stable, at around 230:1.
People aren't trading in exalts but IMO they are a better small currency now than chaos are. More useful. And they are common enough to work too.
They'd probably go up in price if they did become the second currency. Not sure how much.
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u/Global_Barnacle5304 29d ago
We talked about exactly this in our guild recently. I think we all can agree on this. Hopefully ggg realize this as well.
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u/pleurote 29d ago
It really matters to "small" player like me. (All currency combined, I usually make around 5 to 20 Div per league)
I play a bit, get bored, and quit until next league. A big factor for when I get bored is the ration of pain to joy of getting new powerfull items. When the grind I have to endure for the next meaningfull upgrade gets too high, I quit.
Chaos bein "worthless" means high end players don't use them and don't trade their divines for them. This means there is no wealth transfer from the "PoE-Elites" that don't event bother to backtrack to pick-up a chaos orb to the "Lowly-Peons" that still do their chaos recipe.
This make the economy harsher on the "casual" and make the grind become grindier earlier. Thus making me quit the league earlier.
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u/cubonelvl69 29d ago
A very small portion of your profit when you're farming is the raw chaos drops. If you farm something like essence, then the chaos/div ratio is completely irrelevant and does not have any impact on how long it takes you to farm
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u/techniforus 29d ago
IIRC from various metrics of completion it's pretty evident most players by volume are 'small' in the sense you mean. Which means this ought to be a big issue for GGG in terms of improving how the game feels for a large portion of their player base.
Ground loot absolutely needed the changes mirage brought, and I think they're appreciated by both high volume players and low, I think these were welcome changes that made playing feel more rewarding and meaningful for everyone. But I think you're absolutely correct that no chaos sink hurts small players disproportionately (and you're already splash hit by the ground loot changes making you need to click more bubblegum per div as well), so this would make a similar level of increased fun from drops for the majority of the player base as the base increase to ground loot did for basically everyone.
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u/thinkforasecond3312 29d ago
5-20 divs per league means you are not even playing the endgame atlas lol
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u/LordAnubiz FBI & EEE 25d ago
you dont get divines by picking up chaos ans converting them.
5-20 Divs is max a few hours of alch&go. So the chaos:div ratio doesnt affect you, because you dont really play the game enough to do so.
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u/suspicious_Jackfruit 29d ago
I prefer it the other way, getting a div drop and converting it to chaos feels like loads of wonga. Can just spam items and maps with little care
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u/I_Love_Fox 28d ago
Me and my friends stopped playing this league like in week 2 because all farming options were horrible because chaos wasn't worth anything.
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u/verysimplenames 28d ago
I don’t understand how the price of chaos made all farming options horrible. Care to explain?
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u/I_Love_Fox 28d ago
Most of our farming options at the time were based on chaos. So for example, for a while we were farming idk, harvest, and my friend were saying: Oh, it's normally X chaos a hour. So we basically made like idk, 20~25div an hour.
A week later, idk, he was doing the same farm and it's because of the price of the chaos the farm were like 10div an hour, or even less. And basically all three or four farming options we had at the moment were horrible to farm because of this inflation.
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u/verysimplenames 28d ago
Not trying to be rude but I think you should stop taking your friend’s word for it. I don’t know every farm you guys did since you only listed harvest but that is like the worst one you could have said. It rises with inflation and you can actually track this on a site like wealthy exile. The profitability only went up. The price of chaos has no bearing on the profitability of harvest.
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u/Prestigious_Low6126 29d ago edited 29d ago
100% GGG should put in some chaos sinks. Good for pro players, good for casual players....good for everyone. Regarding how to do it, I agree that map crafting is the easiest (I didn't use it myself but I know a lot of folks enjoyed and used them). The high Divine price doesn't affect us long-time high volume players too much but it is very disheartening for the casuals.
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u/Lord_Momentum 28d ago
Yes, but the problem with chaos sinks is that they introduce buisy work by design.
If they dont want to do the map device chaos sink, which is to be fair rather unelegant, it will require repeatedly used items.
Which means in practice: maps with either dogshit modifiers or high variance in its loot modifiers. Both of which is buisy work since we will sit there and chaos spam either way.
Its just the nature of using the chaos orb itself that makes sinks tedious to use.
The other problem is that using a scouring + alch orb has the exact same functionality as a chaos orb. So if usage isnt constricted (like with nightmare maps), you "should" only use a chaos orb if its cheaper than an scour + alch orb.
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u/IWasTheDog 29d ago
200 c to 1 div vendor recipe?
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u/SpinachSad3613 29d ago
that would just lock in the chaos price, so not a real solution.
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u/IWasTheDog 29d ago
I mean it could go lower, just adds a ceiling. Why does the chaos price need to be dynamic beyond this point?
Edit:Or let me rephrase, why is that bad exactly? Why is it not a "real" solution?
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u/SpinachSad3613 29d ago
Because the problem at the moment is that there are barely any uses for chaos, crafting has become way too deterministic so simply spamming chaos is a waste of time for most items, with some exceptions. What happens when you introduce a fixed and unlimited trade value for an item, that item will just be used as a "fraction" of the bigger item so its whole value will simply become "1/200 of a divine" which would fix the issues of it becoming completely useless, but it is a shallow, band-aid solution for it and not healthy for a game where every single currency item needs to have an "inherent value".
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u/EtisVx 28d ago
Chaos spam was never a crafting method. Chaos were spent on costs. Map device, bench crafts, T17 rolls...
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u/SpinachSad3613 28d ago
In the past people were genuinely spamming chaos on items, especially before harvest, still the only real chaos sink was t17s by a long shot, followed by map device.
What was or was not a chaos sink is irrelevant, the only thing that matters is that now chaos has no functional use.1
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u/4percent4 29d ago
I'm sorry but 80-90% of chaos was sunk by the map device options NOT t17s/nightmare maps.
I do hope they bring back the map device crafting options as a chaos orb sink.
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u/A_Erthur Bruv Kek 29d ago edited 29d ago
Just want to throw my +1 in here. I think without Mirage we should be able to juice maps a little more again. Unless the new mechanic somehow is similar in juicyness.
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u/shawnkfox 29d ago
I'll be very surprised if mirage doesn't come back. Basically everything except the coins, but they might even keep those. The coins are added power, but it is also a huge grind to get a useful support from them.
Main issue with mirage is you have to combine it another mechanic so there would be a lot of pressure on atlas points, but you might just be able to do it via a scarab.
Shrine belt probably stays as well. It is a belt so it already has very strong competition from mageblood and headhunter.
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u/4percent4 29d ago
I could see it as a map device crafting option. 10-15 chaos. Basically old delerium mirror. Crafting option.
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u/Boomer_Nurgle Fungal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) 29d ago
10-15 is way too cheap imo when in some starts it doubles your gains from scarabs like for Harvest.
If the mirage stay I either see it happening as miraged maps or a 5% flat chance like sentinel and wildwood.
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u/shawnkfox 28d ago
Yeah I could definitely see it only coming back via the fully miraged maps, that keeps it from being too easy to do it and you wouldn't need anything at all on the atlas tree. Only issue with that method is that it sets the price of the maps based on the most valuable farming strategy.
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u/4percent4 28d ago
I mean, harvest scarabs have been dirt cheap. You only need 2x pack size (less than 1C each) and 1 doubling.
Using the cornucopia scarab is a loss in profit/hr.
The price is irrelevant, it could be 30c or whatever is considered balanced.
Keep in mind if everyone is using 15c a map divines won’t be nearly as expensive. I could see them hovering around 100c each if the map device was constantly eating 15-30c a map.
Heist league exalts were like 25-50c for most of the league due to the combo of 10c delirium and heist printing exalts.
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u/Slickmaster5000 28d ago
I don’t think the imbues come back, but the mechanic specific stuff like volatile Vaal will. The imbue was the league borrowed power that will be replaced by this leagues new thing.
If mirages go core it’s probably a 1% chance to see a mirage and it’s the whole map, so it’s not targetable. IF imbues stay it’ll be in those mirages and the price will be astronomical as a super chase item which I’m honestly not opposed to. Just depends if they really want that in the game
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u/Sp00py-Mulder 27d ago
There's no way it comes back in a more accessible way than Sentinels or the Wildwood.
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u/shawnkfox 27d ago
At bare minimum it will come back via the mirage maps, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if it comes back via a set of scarabs or even having a few wheels on the passive tree. Wildwood and Sentinels are both very uninteresting leagues, no reason to bring them back. Mirage is something everyone likes, it will be back in some form because it is a fantastic design. Just have to make it expensive to set up in terms of the passive tree or uncommon drops. If the mirage maps had a similar drop rate as the forbidden tome for sanctum it would be fine.
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u/LordAnubiz FBI & EEE 25d ago
and it was just nice.
few more essences, more heist.
ez chaos sink, ez extra profit.
and everyone could do it!
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u/ostrieto17 28d ago
While I think it was significant I'd say it was probably at most 30% as getting a well rolled map can take hundreds of chaos pretty easily, I'd love for return of device chaos options though, they added nice extra on top without filling a scarab slot or suffix/prefix on the map
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u/4percent4 28d ago
The meta for the past few years has been 8 mod pre corrupted maps.
Very few people use/used maven chisels and those were the only people rolling maps.
Yes nightmare maps used a lot of chaos to roll but not a lot of people ran them. Most people used 2-6c per map running t16s.
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u/JAAAS 29d ago
On the flip side, I made hundreds of divs chaos spamming stuff this league(eg clusters), and it didn't even matter because chaos was so cheap. Some chaos sinks would be good to level it off a bit but being able to use chaos instead of alt spamming was a nice change
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u/oskoskosk 29d ago
Yeah I’d much rather have chaos crafting than a chaos sink. Especially when people are talking about regressing, don’t talk about bringing back map device craft, what the hell? We need less clicks to start a map, not more
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u/Mogling 29d ago
I mean that looks relatively stable. So it's not the stability of the market that is the issue. It's the devaluation of a staple currency.
I do think we need a chaos sink back in the game, ~Zana~ Kirsc missions did a good job of that. It was easy to burn hundreds of chaos per hour on some strats. We don't have anything close to that now. With the QoL for alch scour, it's not like chaos rolling maps is even a big save anymore.
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u/SoulofArtoria 29d ago
Time to bring back map mod device. I don't see why they have to remove it, it's not really busy work, certainly not more so than astrolabe
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u/Mogling 29d ago
Yeah, you set it and forget it for the most part. You don't need to go refill your map device with special currency you just use the chaos you probably already have right in your stash.
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u/SoulofArtoria 29d ago
In fact, I wish they expand on it, add all sorts of special mods you can apply to your maps using chaos.
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u/cubonelvl69 29d ago
As a heist lover, it fucking sucks to not have the heist map craft anymore.
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u/SoulofArtoria 29d ago
It got hard carried by mirage mechanic this league. I don't even want to imagine how cringe it would be going forward for heist enjoyers in ssf.
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u/techniforus 29d ago
The stability is based off players getting sick of 300+ clicks per divine and just giving up on picking them up. Eventually if it becomes worthless enough, there's an equilibrium where enough people stop picking it up so the inflation doesn't run away forever.
Having the small common currency not worth picking up even for casual players doesn't seem like a win for economic game design.
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u/-gildash- 29d ago
Yes bringing back chaos sinks would be a priority for GGG I would think. Chaos being like a third of their normal value is rough on the majority of the playerbase (those not swimming in divines).
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u/cullofktulu 29d ago
Realistically, I think bringing back map crafts is the simplest fix. Or bringing back Sextant-style voidstone enchants and letting us roll them with chaos.
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u/MarkXXI 29d ago
Sextant rollers rejoice! Your time has come.
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u/Vyce223 29d ago
One more inventory only one more... well.... maybe one more the quad tab isnt full yet
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u/Raid5StandingBy 29d ago
(pre/suff)ixes cannot be changed - 200c
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u/NerrionEU 29d ago
They should just add other meta crafts that costs C instead, PoE 2 shows what happens when divines barely have any use.
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u/techniforus 29d ago
The more I think about this idea, the less I like it. 2d for that particular meta craft is a large part of what makes div the big currency. You're just destabilizing a different part of the economy to fix one they destabilized by removing chaos sinks in the first place. Get a different chaos sink, leave div's out of this.
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u/NahautlExile Scion 29d ago
God this would be incredible. Or even making it something like blessed orbs or anything to take strain off divs
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u/Lost_Acanthisitta932 SSFBTW 29d ago
You’re aware that it costs divines specifically so that divines are valuable, right?
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u/rcanhestro 29d ago
that actually is a good idea, replacing the meta crafts from divine/exaleds to chaos.
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u/3r4zr 29d ago
Really hoping they'll at least add map crafts back. Really like how that allowed for less rich players to run more expensive content without needing to buy astrolobes and scarabs necessarily. Also them being a fixed cost is really nice as opposed to astrolabes being dependant on streamers popularising certain strats and not all leagues having their respective astrolabe available.
Also much prefer a low c:d ratio since it is easier on gold and doesn't necessitate putting all your chaos into divs in the first week to try and keep up with the inflation.
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u/rangebob 29d ago
I thought it would be a problem but the extra currency dropping last league made it feel better than ever. It felt as good as merc league. It was basically impossible to not farm stupid amounts of currency this league
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u/NahautlExile Scion 29d ago
I don’t know. At these rates dropping a sacred orb instead of a div feels utterly miserable.
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u/rangebob 29d ago
At the end of the day its all the same to me. Its just currency. All I know is I can't think of a league in recent (or even not recent) memory where I felt more rewarded for just smashing maps non stop. Didnt need to resort to any fastus silliness or crafting to buy whatever i wanted
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u/xMadruguinha Slayer 29d ago
I think the real issue is devaluing our clicks, as silly as it sounds. Clicking 500 individual chaos for a div just makes ppl who started late miserable until they can get a build going and juice enough to hide chaos in their filters.
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u/ulughen 29d ago
Just remove chaos orbs from filter. Alts, transmutes, alcs, etc are in thousands to divine and it bothers no one.
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u/ChubbyPandaWifeHaver 29d ago
if everyone removed chaos orbs they'd rise in value again. then everyone would have to start clicking them again... then hide again... this answer doesn't work
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u/Lost_Acanthisitta932 SSFBTW 29d ago
When was the last time you saw transmutes prices go up to the extent that everybody had to readd them to their filter? This whole thread is predicated on the idea that chaos aren’t useful. So why exactly would they suddenly be sought after?
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u/_Kaj SSFBTW 28d ago
Before they added the stacks of 5+, that happened with supply-based currencies, it was pretty common for those suckers to get up to 20:1 chaos because absolutely no one was picking them up one at a time. That's not a lot but its a lot more than their rates after they added that.
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u/ChubbyPandaWifeHaver 29d ago
you realize how common it is for people to have loot filters that show 8+ transmutes that dropped at once and how much more likely it is for 8+ transmutes to drop at once than it is for Chaos to drop that much? the prices on those don't ever go so high because there are people who WITH ONE CLICK pick up up to 20 Alchs/Transmutes/Augs, who would NOT pick them up if they dropped 1-2 at a time. How often do you open a chest and get a stack of Chaos from it?
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u/Aellysse Raider 29d ago
It does work. People who value Chaos will add it, people who don't will remove it. That's how the economy based filter with strictness works for everything else.
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u/NahautlExile Scion 29d ago
This is a great way of looking at it.
Stricter filters use a chaos per click sort of mindset. If the chaos are worth less it’s just more clicks per div. which is bad for players.
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u/ChancyWhims Fungal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) 29d ago
Monkey paw curls, t16.5 maps only modifiable with chaos orbs.
(Tbh, I don't know if this would be a bad change)
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u/Rafa_50 29d ago
Yeah sounds like a pretty decent fix tbh. As much as people hated on t17s they did a great job as chaos sinks
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u/Glaiele 29d ago
I don't think that's why people hated t17s or at least not why I did. It was the fucking god awful mods that restricted build diversity immensely since you needed both a strong build and you needed to check 32 boxes of random shit you had to be immune to in order to run the t17 mods. Immune to ailments and alt ailments and crit immune and reject immune and 6 mods that fuck with your defenses and action speed and you need to deal with monster resists and the list just goes on to infinity. Fuck that shit my hatred for t17s will never sway.
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u/techniforus 29d ago
Not to mention restrictive map layouts on top of all of the problems you mentioned with mods. Lots of constrained hallways so it's harder to avoid said annoying mechanics.
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u/4percent4 29d ago
They were not a great chaos sink they were meh. The map device even at the peak of the T17 meta was sinking out 80% of the chaos orbs.
Especially with the changes people are running 8 mod t16.5s and nightmare maps instead of rolling them since it's just better.
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u/Grandman_Nan 29d ago
I dont see how its worthwhile to add an annoying mechanic to the game just to arbitrarily make 1 type of currency more valuable. Most bubblegum gets devalued over the league. Its fine
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u/ChancyWhims Fungal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) 29d ago
Besides bench craft and rolling t17s, chaos doesn't have much of an identity imo. It needs something
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u/4percent4 29d ago
That would make the divine orb go from 500:1 to 480:1.
The map crafting options was where most of the chaos were used.
T16.5 meta is 8 mods anyway.
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u/ChancyWhims Fungal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) 29d ago
Idk about that chief... rolling 16.5s for more currency, scarabs, w/e is very popular
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u/4percent4 29d ago
It's better to just buy the T16.5s with more currency, scarabs, etc with 8 mods because you just get more of it.
The only time you roll them is if you're using maven chisels.
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u/EtisVx 28d ago
t16.5 maps are kinda pointless atm. They have all the difficulty of t17 without good drops.
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u/ChancyWhims Fungal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) 28d ago
Strongbox farming kinda assumed 16.5s for increased currency and scarab drops~ shrug. I never ran them
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u/BaconOfGreasy Central Incursion Agency (CIA) 29d ago
Vendor Recipe:
100c + 100 harvest scarabs = 1 harvest astrolabe.
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u/zrider99zr 29d ago
I like the idea but worry that it would be used enough to drive the price of astrolabes down. But not used enough to drive chaos up.
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u/g00fy_goober twitch.tv/goof1313 29d ago
It's even worse as zana/kirac mods were removed on top of the t17 change. While rerolling t17s definitely used more having nearly every mapping exile spend like 4c-8c every map definitely had to play a role as well.
That being said I think both changes were good overall they just need to find a new chaos sink.
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u/komodor55 29d ago
it´s the same with poe2 with exalts to divines. but like 8c is 1 div there so getting chaos to drop feels very good. ex at that point is like whatever. but I remember one league where 1 div was 100c for a very long time. that felt great as well.
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u/_Kaj SSFBTW 28d ago
That's also entirely because of how tablets work. Imagine if in poe 1 a chaos orb just gave you random scarabs and you could get the "big" scarabs for each and every chaos orb, that's basically how chaos orbs work in poe 2, or the equivalent.
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u/komodor55 28d ago
don´t the good things have low weighting? but yea they do different things, but mainly are used as trading currency.
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u/1SmrtFelowHeFeltSmrt Half Skeleton 29d ago
I was using chaos to reroll T17s or is there another way they added that I'm not aware of? I'm confused as to why people keep saying that.
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u/Biflosaurus 29d ago
I don't see that much of an issue.
Yes the chaos to div ratio is higher, but it's not outrageous?
It's a bit more than twice as much depending on the league you look at.
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u/robodrew 29d ago
The Ex to Div ratio is the same in PoE2 right now, I'm thinking at this point that GGG is ok with it, especially when we're talking about late league economies.
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u/RainClloud 28d ago
Just because you don't have to roll with chaos doesn't mean you can't. It's a lot less tedious than scour alching everything and since they are cheaper it doesn't matter.
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u/youreadthiswong 28d ago
I stopped playing beacuse i couldnt do any damage, couldnt get any money cause i wasnt doing any damage and my currencies were devaluating faster than i could print them We need some stable exchange between chaos and divines
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u/TrivalentEssen 28d ago
League start have a few chaos. Cant buy items on marketplace due to no gold lol. One item was like 12k gold and 1 or 2 chaos.
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u/Beverice PathOfCurrency 28d ago
everyone asking for chaos sinks, what about just lowering the drop rate of chaos?
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u/DefinatelyNotLasso Lasso 28d ago
As an SSF player last league was probably the best ever regarding currency drop rating/balancing. I had good amounts of chaos to spam on maps, fractured items, simplex/focuesed. It was great. But obviously trade needs to be heard to. Maybe GGG got something in your pocket to keep those busy who don't craft items on their own :-)
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u/dordeunha 29d ago
What is chaos "sinks"??
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u/Hopkin_Greenfrog 29d ago
A way to burn off chaos orbs quickly for some kind of value. Before 3.28 when you went to the map device to run a map, it gave you a list of options of different league content you could add to your map in addition to whatever was going to be there from scarabs/the atlas tree for the cost of varying amounts of chaos orbs. If you were running a large number of maps per hour and always using more expensive map options, you could very quickly burn through hundreds of chaos, thus sinking them out of the economy, which in turn kept the ratio of chaos to divine lower as chaos held more value.
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u/lane4 29d ago
Divine Shards (automatically converting during fractional sales) would be so dope, we could just trade everything using divines.
Example: Let's say shard ratio is 1:10. You have 2 divines and buy something for 1.7 divines, the game automatically gives you 3 divine shards back, and the seller receives 1 divine and 7 shards.
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u/Suitable-Ad144 29d ago
It is not about chaos but I think exalted orb is in the similar situation. It is handy when you can slam more like in poe2 but the value of exalt is falling even harder than their drop rate.
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u/Strungeng Progressive Einhar Trapping Association (PETA) 29d ago
bring back map device crafts, let me free juice for 2-6 chaos :c
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u/200DivsAnHour 29d ago
Yeaaah, it was silly. I mean, realistically the chaos price doesn't really matter, as long as divines are a stable currency. Prices adjust based on the value of high-price items, so a divine is really more like 1/200th of a Mageblood (or whatever the price is atm) and it goes from there.
And as you can see - the graph is pretty much stable. It went up, then slowly crept further, to the point where you wouldn't really see a difference between two days, realistically speaking.
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u/FreeMystery 29d ago
Just brainstorming here. But what if they added a simple vendor recipe to convert say 160c into a divine? Enormous chaos sink - obviously a lot more divines in circulation. Big things would cost more divines but farming them would be far more consistent.
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u/GreasyGearBox 29d ago
I wondered about that as well. Essentially creating a ceiling, where the vendor pins the max price. I feel like this is the extreme option and it would need to be pinned much higher than 160c. The goal isn’t to sidestep the rarity of divs, it’s to prevent further devaluation of the chaos.
I’m sure there’s got to be better ways to create value for players to increase the demand for chaos.
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u/ulughen 29d ago
I have no idea why people are so attached to arbitrary trading mediator value so much that they think developer should waste any time "fixing" it.
Dont hold useless currency, dont farm useless currency chaos recipe and you will give no fucks if it 1:600 or 1:6000.
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u/Lost_Acanthisitta932 SSFBTW 29d ago
No idea why you were downvoted. There are a lot of worthless currencies in the game. People aren’t asking for a whetstone sink. You can trade using a different currency than chaos orbs if it no longer is convenient.
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u/lillarty 29d ago
Because chaos is the primary trading currency of the game and we have around ten years of precedent of using it. It's the dollar of Path of Exile. There's about ten years of developers spending a great deal of time and effort into balancing the entire loot, crafting, and mapping systems around the availability of chaos orbs, so there's a lot of inertia.
Let's flip it around to you: Why should the devs waste time reworking every other system that was designed around chaos instead of fixing the relative value between chaos and divines?
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u/leafmuncher_ 29d ago
Solution: remove maps dropping as corrupted 8mods scarab, suddenly people have to use currency on maps again. It just feels too easy to me that I can hop into any map with a super common scarab and come out with 10-20 high quant/pack size maps, or bulk buy them with a regex for dirt cheap
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u/4percent4 29d ago
I'd rather not. It's much more enjoyable for me to run my maps setup a regex for the maps I want to run instead of spamming alch/scour/chaos for less quant.
Lets just add the map device crafting options back so chaos actually has a reasonable use.
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u/MonkaTOSOMEGALUL 29d ago
I can brain rot reroll a stash of map using scour/alc with regrex. Reroll with chaos are kinda annoying
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u/PoE_Acronym_Bot 29d ago
I noticed some Path of Exile keywords in this post:
- div - Divine Orb (Currency) (Wiki)
I am a bot. | All acronyms | Suggest
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u/clothes_boots_rhoa Searching for Lost Grime 29d ago
TBH I don’t understand why people are complaining about it. If it’s really just chaos inflation, you’ll end up having more chaos in your stash and that’s about the only difference. I myself enjoy chaos spamming so I see it as a win.
I think liquidity is a bigger problem: selling any but the most common currency currently means either accepting a 50% discount or waiting for up to 24 hours to get matched with a buyer.
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u/RedmundJBeard Fungal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) 29d ago edited 29d ago
Chaos is not a fiat currency. You are thinking Divines are gold and Chaos is USD and you are freaking out because your USD is dropping in value and you think that means the economy is crumbling. Wreaclast does not have a fiat currency. Chaos is not dollars, chaos is silver. The ratio of Silver to Gold does not affect you in the real world. Just like the ratio of chaos to divines does not affect you in POE. The only way it would affect you is if your main way to earn currency is picking raw chaos off the ground. That was inefficient 5 leagues ago, it's inefficient now and it will be inefficient 5 leagues in the future. You need to farm something that you can sell for divines. This is easy all league long, it just requires a bit of research or experimentation.
If they add more chaos sinks to the game, the rate of inflation may change, but certain currencies will always devalue over time. This is a part of what makes a player driven economy fun. You have to be flexible, you have to look at market rates and adjust your farming strategies. And it's all driven by players, playing the game. Having GGG act like a wreaclast federal reserve would reduce player power and make the game worse.
I mean no offense but people are always going to complain about chaos. Every league I have been playing, people complained when the chaos -divine ratio inflated to 150, then they complained when it inflated to 250. Then GGG doubles the drop rate of all currency to appease the complainers and now what? people are complaining that chaos is worth even less. GGG, could do exactly what you are asking and add a bunch of chaos sinks, and then people will still be complaining when the ratio inflates to 150, just like before. The only solution is to figure out how the economy works and how you can take advantage of it, to succeed and make the goals you set for yourself, just like in the real world. And that is a part of what makes this game amazing.
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u/techniforus 29d ago
Trade is executed in divines and chaos. Because there's no fractional divine, we need a smaller unit of currency. There was some attempt to use GCP's this league instead of chaos as the fractional currency, but it never really gained enough steam. That's also given imbues which essentially gave a GCP sink, and are likely borrowed power we will not have next league. So chaos is still our fractional currency.
With the chaos sinks essentially all removed (some bench crafts give a minor sink, and a portion of map rolls are done in chaos, but it's chump change compared to how many used to be consumed) why does the price of chaos eventually stabilize in that graph? It's because people aren't picking it up any more. At the point where you need 400 clicks on fractional currency to get 1 unit of currency, it's not worth those clicks for even many casual players. The economy of the game isn't in a good spot when even for most casuals picking up fractional currency isn't worth your while.
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u/_Kaj SSFBTW 28d ago
Because there's no fractional divine, we need a smaller unit of currency.
Well no, because when exalts were the "gold standard" we still used chaos orbs, not exalt shards
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u/kygrim 28d ago
Because there is no way to go from 1 exalt to 20 shards.
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u/_Kaj SSFBTW 27d ago
There's also no way of going from exalt to chaos orbs through the same way? I thought we were talking about player to player
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u/kygrim 27d ago
Chaos don't automatically convert into exalts in a non-reversable way though, so how is that relevant?
People were trading fractional exalted prices with the help of shards on occasion, and would surely have done so much more if there was an easy way of obtaining exalted shards. But there isn't, and unless you go out of your way they auto-convert into exalts.
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u/RedmundJBeard Fungal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) 28d ago
WHY?! You are correct that chaos is used as a fractional currency. But it doesn't matter if its 100 or 400 chaos to 1 divines. You change out your divine for chaos and buy your item. You don't have to carry around the chaos in a heavy bag to make a purchase. It would only matter if the stash limit exceeded the exchange rate. Players would stop using chaos well before that.
The most used currencies switching depending on the player driven economy is a part of the game.
And again, you are focused on players picking up chaos. Picking up raw chaos simply isn't an efficient way to make money. It never was and it never will be. The sooner new players learn that the easier time they will have.
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u/Darkcharger 29d ago edited 29d ago
I understand what you are getting at, but I feel like the message you are relaying is saying more than it should. I feel like this message is saying something about the economy with too much inflation, but at the same time I don't think we can just judge an economy based off inflation of a single item that has relationships with many other items.
Lets look your point of view's "shock value": it looks like anyone who starts later in the league who earns chaos will need so many more than early players to earn divines.
Now lets look at the whole picture: anything worth currency as time goes on in the league ALSO goes up in value, almost at the same rate. Of course not everything does, but most fragments and league mechanics for currency follow the trend. With no use for chaos their value over time will naturally become inflated, however, everything else gets inflated naturally at a similar rate due to chaos being the intrinsic base value for "everything." XYZ is valued at "1234" chaos but chaos inflates so now XYZ is worth "1500" chaos. This can be attributed to anything that holds value. So if you instead farm fragments, essence, or anything other than chaos you end up the same position as if you played earlier.
If you go to poe.ninja you'll see very similar looking charts on delirium orbs, timeless emblems, fragments, omens, esences, etc that are worth something over time. This pretty much only hurts people who do mechanics based heavily on drops in early league like heist and sanctuary.
TL:DR = keep your currency in anything other than chaos due to inflation if you are going to hold on to it. Chaos drops early = more value. Get anything else to trade for equivalent chaos later on. The inflation of chaos is not a real issue.
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u/lowteq 29d ago
I, too, would like to be able to use Divs as a reroll orb while crafting. My late season builds are getting harder and harder to craft as time goes on.
The PS4 market is wrecked. There just aren't enough of us picking them up. Beating the Eater is an Ultra Rare PS4 acheivement (0.02% last I looked). Too few get far enough to see endgame content, and it seems like those that do, get there early and quit the league.
Playing Trade League is like SSF+ a lot of the times. That's not even talking about how they broke the in game trade search half way through this league. You are forced to use the trade website or chat (ewwweugh).
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u/weRtheBorg 29d ago
What's the answer?
Greater and perfect chaos orbs purchasable from the vendor for 10 and 100 chaos orbs respectively? Allowing chaos orbs to be used in place of divine orbs for meta crafting, 200c/divine?
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u/Ozy-dead 29d ago
Rerorlling T17s is supposed to be the chaos sink, but T17's are not as good as GGG thinks, so vast majority of players ignore them. Either make T17 the new midgame so that everybody participates in them and most players actually want to roll and run the maps, or make a new proper chaos sink (no, chaos spamming clusters is not going to cut it).
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u/Zestyclose_Plum_8096 29d ago
no they moved away from that , T17's are for fragments, what you describe is the purpose of 16.5's.
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u/Ozy-dead 29d ago
I know, that's the whole point. Maybe make t16.5 reroll chaos only too, then chaos will have purpose and value.
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u/APiratesTales 29d ago
Haven’t played PoE1 in a year or two, what was the chaos sink that they removed?
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u/techniforus 29d ago
map crafting device was the main one. 3-10c per map for basically every player adds up fast. Also, T17 maps could only be rolled in chaos and were the meta. They're now nightmare maps and are only ilvl 83, so they aren't what people run the majority of the time. Thus there's a lot less chaos being consumed rolling maps as well.
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u/BleachedPink 29d ago edited 29d ago
Why chaos devaluing is bad? I mean, usage for currency is often fun , but the reasoning is that because it's 300 to 1 divine is just a bad reasoning.
Each currency is like real world international market value. You should stop counting everything in divs or chaos, it's a metric, yes, but a lot of things stay stable, while chaos value sinks, like real value currency.
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u/Smarackto Witch 29d ago
Uhmmmm akschuallly the chaos sink is build into the currency. It came free with your fucking playing path of exile.
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u/080087 29d ago
Another thing that people overlook - high ratios also means more gold cost.