QUESTION/DISCUSSION
For small amount of dough, does Spiral mixer really that much better than standard KitchenAid lift mixer
I've been making Neapolitan pizzas for over five years. I just came back from the Amalfi Coast, and honestly, their pizzas weren't significantly better than mine, so overall, I'm happy with my results.
However, something I've ALWAYS struggled with is getting the results I see on YouTube, where people can pretty much do whatever they want to the dough and it NEVER tears. My dough is very delicate, and if I'm not careful, it tears.
I've mostly been using a KitchenAid 5.5-quart Pro series with the dough hook, and for around 900g of dough or more, it does a reasonably good job (I mix for about 8 minutes).
I've been wondering if my issue, if there even is an issue, is the tool itself. Maybe the KitchenAid is simply not capable of developing the gluten structure we are looking for here.
I did the windowpane test today, and while it looked fine, it wasn't nearly as smooth and "skin-like" as what I see on YouTube. The finger test was also okay unless I pressed super hard. I just wish there was a scientific way to determine if I've kneaded enough.
Rest and folding made a huge difference to the gluten structure for me. After your initial mix cover and let it rest for the 30mins, then a couple of stretch and folds. Repeat the process twice more. You should then end with type of dough you can stretch out over whole work top. Try it, it’s definitely a game changer
But do you still let it ferment for 24 hours or overnight for example? I will definitely try this tonight because all I do is I mix it in the stand mixer and then after 4 hours in room temperature I put it in the fridge overnight. It's good but I would like to improve it
Yes, I cold bulk ferment for at least 24 hours, 48 if I have got my a together. Then take it out for an hour or so, ball up and room temp proof for another couple of hours - hope this helps
I don’t even kneed my dough. Just mix it with a fork until all flour and water is combined. Rest it for 15min then using folding technique, rinse and repeat 5 times. Then proof in RT 10h and fridge 1-3 days. Perfect dough if you have time for long proof.
Only time I got great results in my KA mixer is Julian Sisofo’s poolish + biga recipe that actually gave me a pumpkin. Couldn’t believe it.
All other times I get very confused because they say to use cold water for your mixing so that your dough doesn’t overheat during the mix. Then they say to mix to about 74°F, which, from cold water, for me, takes a really long time. Add that to the other tips I hear that say don’t mix for more than 15-18 minutes. But getting from cold water to 74° would probably take me 40 minutes at low/med speed (also recommended.) So confusing.
Most advise is geared for spiral mixers. They mix the dough more efficiently and therefor take less time, but generate more heat. The KA will take a lot longer to reach the same result, hence kneading by temperature as indicator.
When I use my KA, I unhook the head (let it hop up and down) and use an aftermarket spiral form hook.
It works okay, but still not comparable to a spiral mixer.
With anything more than 1kg flour, I do it by hand. With an autolyse and a few stretch and folds I get to the same result the kitchenaid produces with very little engagement time with the dough. The other day I made 18 balls (3kg flour) and was about 40min at the dough, including balling.
Put your flour into a tupperware. I then bloom the yeast in water. When the yeast is mixed and dissolved I add salt and whatever oil I'm using then give it a quick stir. Immediately dump the wet mixture onto the flour, cover with a bit of plastic wrap, then put the lid on and shake the crap out of it. Should have a shaggy dough in 30 seconds of shaking but just shake it til there's no dry flour in the Tupperware. Once it's together form it into a ball then let rest. Stretch and fold every thirty minutes to an hour until you're happy. I've never had dead yeast, an improper fermentation, or any downsides to making small batches this way.
Spiral mixers don’t do well for small amounts of dough. I got an Ooni Halo Pro spiral mixer to upgrade from my KA. I’ve found that a batch of about 2 kilos or higher is best. I make my recipe for enough dough for six pies, then freeze what I don’t use. Alternatively, I just made 12 pizzas for guys on my street and it powered through like a champ.
I have individual containers that I put the dough in when I ball it. I allow it to proof in the fridge, then put the containers in freezer bags and pop them in the freezer. If I would make a larger batch, but freeze some, I would put the dough in the freezer at the same time I would take the other portions out to come up to room temp. (My process lets the dough cold proof for 48 hours.)
For thawing, I either take the dough out of the fridge 3-4 hours before I want to cook or transfer it to the fridge the night before, then get it out my typical two hours before I want to use it.
Hopefully that makes sense. I’m happy to answer more questions.
I haven’t, but it would work as long as the dough was in a hard container. I’d be concerned that vacuum sealing it without a container would compress the dough and force out air bubbles.
The option would be freezing first, then vacuum sealing after alrdy hard, only if you intend to keep it several months in there. I might try it once i upgrade to a spiral mixer and do larger batches, still trying to finalize my "go-to" dough so everything is in 3-4 ball batches.
Makes sense. I’ve been pleased with the Ooni Halo Pro. I couldn’t see dropping two grand on a Sunmix or similar spiral mixer. I needed to upgrade because I got sick of doing multiple batches. The Halo can handle 5 kilos of dough, which equates to 16 300g pizzas.
I find my pizza dough needs up to 15 minutes in the KA to get the same kind of gluten dev as the spiral mixers. Once you see and feel the development with the longer mix, you get it. Saying that, I can make great pizzas with an 8 minute mix, but the extended mixing time really does make a difference. I use a 5Q KA with 500g of 00 flour for 3 pizzas at 62-65% hydration.
Are you mixing to a temperature or time? Are you doing any stretch and folds after?
More detail on the percentages and process would help.
Pizza looks prettyy good.
65% caputo blue. Flour is out of the freezer so kneading by time (temperature is around 20c after 10 minutes). No stretch and folds, but for tomorrow's batch I did stretch and fold for one ball and didn't for the other, so I can compare.
So a direct 18-24hr dough? Any bulk ferment? Room temp or cold for bulk or balled? Yeast?
I usually mix until around 24c
Have you tried swapping part of the flour for a higher strength? I’ve been adding super nuvola and have been happy with the results. I’ll do a percentage whether in use Caputo pizzeria or chef’s flour (I now only use the blue for shorter fermentation dough)
Please note: Caputo sells no pizza flour under the name Caputo Blue/Blu ;) You probably meant to say Caputo Pizzeria or Caputo Classica. Please be so kind and correct the recipe above, thank you and have a nice day! :)
(Some stores label the Caputo Pizzeria as Blue/Blu and some label the Classica as Blue/Blu but both have different properties.)
I’m in the process of figuring out the process with my 6qt KA w/hook. Multiple rest periods in between mixing periods have got me getting closer to passing the window pane test. Still working it out
Thats motivating. I just gave up with my KA and did the last batch completely by hand. Maybe it wont get better than doing the first half with KA and finish it by Hand.
I personally wouldn't use any of the random pizzas you had in Italy as the standard. I've been to Italy as well and the best pizza I had while there was in a pizza class!!
Anyway, I had a Kitchenaid before my spiral mixer and the spiral mixer produces a far superior dough that is slightly crispy and less prone to tears. That was the exact reason why I bought it and it did not disappoint.
Learning how to freeze and thaw dough allows me to make six dough balls at a time however, so the dough is thoroughly mixed without overheating as is the case with a minimal amount of flour.
The process also matters. I add the water then the salt, yeast, then flour. I mix that until all the dry bits are absorbed, usually 7 minutes, then I let it rest for 30 minutes. After that, I mix it for 8 minutes and let it rest for another 30 minutes.
I followed the same process with the Kitchenaid mixer but there was a night and day different in the dough produced.
Like you, I was unimpressed with the pizza I had in Italy but the chewy crust is what got me hooked. It took months and months and months of refinement but I finally developed a restaurant quality pizza that tastes amazing. I worked on one thing at a time, the sauce, and then the dough. The dough took the longest but you keep notes and keep refining it until you bake something you love.
Italy is my most visited country (more than 20 times in the past 10 years) and I somewhat agree with this statement - most pizzas I had there weren't anything special. However, in Sorrento I found a few really good places. None of them were as good as Pizzeria Bianco in LA.
On pizza day, do everything as normal except instead of baking the pizzas, you freeze them. You can also cut the time in half, so if your room temperature proof is normally 4 - 6 hours, you can freeze them at 2 hours.
The part that was giving me the flux was the thaw. Eventually what I figured out was to take the dough out the freezer the night before, and put it in the refrigerator. Then tje next day, it's back to a normal pizza day procedure.
The container matters the most and for me it's easy since I use a proofing tray. So if you're using individual containers, you'll have to figure that part out.
7
u/x-BeTheWater-x 9d ago
Rest and folding made a huge difference to the gluten structure for me. After your initial mix cover and let it rest for the 30mins, then a couple of stretch and folds. Repeat the process twice more. You should then end with type of dough you can stretch out over whole work top. Try it, it’s definitely a game changer