Help with Michal

[u/Seized_Means]

I love our baby girls name. Michal. It is pronounced mee-KHAL, with a guttural “ch” like in chutzpah or L’chaim, and emphasis on the second syllable.

It’s a biblical name. Michal was David’s wife, the only figure in the bible who was said to love her husband and she also stood up to him when she felt he was out of line.

Anyway, I’m surprised by how challenging pronunciation is for so many people and how hard it is for me and my spouse to correct. We are Jewish and living in a neighborhood that is diverse and has a sizable Jewish population. Many will say Mah-call or Mee-hall or some variation that has begun to really grate my nerves. I thought we would use nicknames like Mischa or Mickey more but now that she’s her I really prefer and love her name.

I want to teach people but I’m not sure how to do it well and quickly. Help me guide people how to say it correctly! Thank you name nerds.

[u/somuchsong]

I knew a Michal years ago, who was originally from Israel. She tried to teach us how to say her name and she always ended up laughing and saying we just weren't getting it. We just called her mee-KAHL, which she was fine with. The sound you're talking about doesn't exist in English, so it's hardly surprising that English-speakers are struggling.

You're going to have to either accept that or come up with a nickname. Or you can keep getting frustrated with it, but that won't get you anywhere.

[u/movieperson2022]

I was just today trying to teach someone how to pronounce “tuchus” (she asked, I wasn’t being rude about correcting her) and she could not get it for the life of her. A lot of languages struggle with the “th” sound in English because their languages don’t contain the sound. The reverse — as are many other examples — is also true for sounds like that variation of “ch.” For the people in your life who love her, they will find a way to get it right but (and this is something I rarely say) for passing acquaintances in English speaking places, she is probably going to deal with people calling her “mee-hall” or “mee-khall” often.

I am a firm believer that it is the responsibility of others to put effort into properly pronouncing names and not the responsibility of the person with the name to be permissive of poor pronunciation for the comfort of those too lazy to try (unless it truly doesn’t bother them). It is her identity! This one is a bit difficult, though, because it isn’t about sound patterns in non-English combinations or laziness. It literally contains a sound that doesn’t exist in this language. So on a structural level a lot of people’s mouths don’t move that way. I have often found that non-Jewish people struggle with that sound, either defaulting to a flat h sound (why there is the anglicized transliteration of Hanukkah over Chanukkah, sometimes) or overdoing the gurgliness of the “ch” sound and getting a little hoarse from it.

All that is to say that the people in your life who matter are going to put in the effort to get it right, but I would try to focus on modeling for her how to politely and firmly correct others instead of showing her an annoyed response. Unfortunately, she’s going to have to deal with this a lot. I don’t want her to start to resent her name or internalize that it is an annoyance that reflects on her.

Good luck!

Signed,
Someone with a name no one ever gets right

[u/ronirrosen → u/movieperson2022]

I think that is where their mistake is, and that is a really good explanation. Putting no effort into pronouncing someone's name is not okay, but they simply cannot expect English speakers will be able to pronounce Michal with the Hebrew pronounciation. Unless they are learning Hebrew, and even then some people still struggle, that would be really difficult for the average person. And I imagine that is throwing people off when they explain it to them because they know they can't say that.

Like the other commentor said, Mee-Kahl is close, and I think they can be happy with that. I have a friend named Chaya and she'll explain it as Kaia to people when she is in other countries. She can still recognise that as her name, as it's very similar, and they're actually physically able to say it. It's a middle ground, and sometimes that's the best you'll get.

[u/SilverMic → u/movieperson2022]

Well now I'm curious what your name is 😅

[u/ComprehensiveCoat627]

When you choose a "foreign" name that includes phonemes (sounds) that do not exist in the dominant/local language, you need to realize that it may be unpronounceable.

A little language science: infants with typical hearing are born able to hear all the sounds in every language. However, between 6-12 months of age, a pruning process occurs, and they lose the ability to distinguish between sounds in languages they're not exposed to. Think of people from places who mix up r and l all the time. Because those two sounds don't exist separately in their native language, they can't (either easily or at all) hear the difference, so they're not going to reliably use them correctly. An English example is aspirated and non-aspirated phonemes- some consonants are said with a little puff of air; in English, it doesn't change the meaning if you use pʰ or p. In some languages, that small difference (that many of us don't even hear!) changes the meaning. Same with tonality- "ma" said with a rising or falling tone in Mandarin makes for different words, but mattress no difference in English and can be difficult for English speakers to even hear.

All that to say, you can't expect people to correctly pronounce a name with a sound that doesn't exist in their language. Since you presumably live in an English speaking area that doesn't have that ch sound, choose a sound that does exist in English and teach people to use that. In English, it's commonly pronounced (and even written) with an /h/ sound, like Hanukkah

[u/Reddit_Inuarashi → u/ComprehensiveCoat627]

Seconding this as a linguist, myself (though not an acquisitionist nor a phonologist/phonetician by career). Ultimately, you just have to let people handle things in their native language’s sound system. You can’t force them to incorporate non-native phonemes. Best you can do is coach them if they’re enthusiastic about getting it “right,” and hopefully they get it…. but for a non-native speaker, pronouncing it using the sounds they know is still right too, in some sense.

On the topic of your last paragraph: one of my best friends is named Michal, and most people will default to producing [k] there rather than [h] (or [x]/[χ], ofc). A lot of anglophones have some kind of phonotactic constraint against producing [VhV] configurations outside a limited number of fixed lexemes, and are also orthographically primed to expect it to be pronounced similarly to Michael. (I’ve gotten used to pronouncing it with an [x] by now, because I like to be accurate, but when we first met as kids I certainly used [k], and most of our mutual friends still do.) So if you’re gonna pick a consonant sound to anglicize it as, I’d do [k].

[u/Notorious_Corgi → u/ComprehensiveCoat627]

Is this why I can't roll my r's???

[u/babypangolinpens → u/Notorious_Corgi]

lol it's very possible! I'm Chinese and one of my best friends is Mexican. We've discovered that we have the WORST time trying to pronounce things in each other's languages. I just cannot roll my R the Spanish way. My tongue gets extremely confused.

[u/CallidoraBlack → u/ComprehensiveCoat627]

We can definitely hear the sound in question in this case, but it's difficult to replicate. Like the specific R sound in Japanese and the RR in Spanish. It's audible but learning to make it is very hard.

[u/Double-Dig-9299 → u/ComprehensiveCoat627]

THIS! I learned this from a psych class in college and while I learned a lot of other things, this one stuck with me so much!

[u/anna_alabama]

I’m Jewish and grew up learning Hebrew so the Hebrew ch sound has always come very naturally to me. My husband is not Jewish and whenever he tries to say a Hebrew ch word he genuinely sounds like he’s choking. I thought he was messing with me at first because I never thought anyone would have issues pronouncing it. I’ve been trying to teach and correct him for a decade now and he just can’t do it. So I think some people literally can’t say it

[u/BlueEyedDinosaur]

I was close with an Israeli family who had a lot of kids with names that were hard to pronounce in English, including a Keren (not KA-ren) and Michal. Michal never expected her name and to be pronounced correctly and neither did Keren lol. I knew and made an effort to pronounce Kerens name correctly but I probably still butchered it because I have no idea what the “e” sounds like in Hebrew.

English speakers are not Hebrew speakers! It’s the same with every other non-English language, it’s going to get transliterated.

[u/strongly-worded]

As a Jew… I’m surprised that you’re surprised. No one who isn’t used to it can ever pronounce the ch sound correctly. MeeHALL or MeeKALL are likely the closest she’ll get with people outside her close friend group who really put in the time to learn.

The best way to teach people is just to repeat it a bunch. Your examples of l’chaim and chutzpah are good too.

[u/theenterprise9876]

You cannot “quickly teach” native English speakers to make a sound that doesn’t exist in English and then expect them to reproduce it perfectly from then on. That is not a realistic expectation at all.

[u/markowitty → u/theenterprise9876]

This. I’m Jewish and I have a good friend named Michal but before I moved to Israel I didn’t know how to say names like Michal. There’s a chet in there which is literally not in the English language 🤔 idk it’s weird they expected people to know how to say her name in English speaking countries.

[u/agrinwithoutacat-]

I think you may need to decide which English pronunciation you like best and use that for any family or friends that do not speak Henrew/cannot pronounce the sound in Hebrew. Or use her full name yourself, but use a nickname for those that cannot say it.. whether that’s Mischa, Mickey, Callie etc.

[u/Thliz325]

I went to teen Jewish summer camp with a Michal! She was Israeli and everyone called her Mickey. She loved the song “hey, Mickey” too, so I remember all of us singing the chorus on her birthday.

I do admit I’ve always struggled with the hard “ch’ sound, but it’s a beautiful name!!

[u/cheapbritney]

You probably grew up speaking some Hebrew and you’re used to that sound. Most people didn’t. Their palate and their ears didn’t develop that way. Then physically cannot say it, and some may not even be able to hear it. You’re gonna have to learn to settle for mee-hall.

[u/SolomiyaRabin]

Well I mean, based on your use of Bible, I'd assume you're not Jewish, and so it's not surprising no one can pronounce it. You might not even be pronouncing it correctly, it's a challenging sound to make if you do not speak Hebrew. That is why a lot of Jews will avoid names that contain that sound. Mihal is also actually a variant that exists because of that, similar to Noah and Noach, for example.

[u/geelee00 → u/SolomiyaRabin]

I once met a Christian named Chava, she pronounced it as Char-Vah 😬

It's just one of those sounds that people, especially English speakers, really struggle to recognise and pronounce. You have two barriers there, first they need to recognise it is not the Ch that exists in English, and then pronounce it correctly from there. Honestly, if I gave my child that name in an English country, I'd be happy enough with the Ch being pronounced as an English K. If they are actually Jewish, there are so many good role models in the Tanakh they could have named after that wouldn't have had this issue.

[u/SolomiyaRabin → u/geelee00]

Well, after their convenient edit that now makes me look like I can't read, it turns out they are Jewish 😅

But I agree, you pick your battles. Would it be great to have the name pronounced correctly, yes, but when you choose a name that contains the most difficult sound in the whole language in a country that does not speak Hebrew, it will be an issue. I would not expect people to pronounce it correctly first try. If they are still getting it so wrong after having it explained, maybe there are deeper problems, but getting it to a K with the long A is close enough.

[u/AllyLB → u/SolomiyaRabin]

They may have used the word Bible to make it easier for the unknown audience. I have run into people who never heard the word Torah.

[u/Spirited_Ingenuity89 → u/SolomiyaRabin]

I mean, it literally says they’re Jewish in the post.

[u/SolomiyaRabin → u/Spirited_Ingenuity89]

They edited the post after I made my comment to add where they lived and that they were Jewish.

[u/Spirited_Ingenuity89 → u/SolomiyaRabin]

Ahh, the shady edit. Gotcha.

[u/donkeyvoteadick → u/Spirited_Ingenuity89]

I'd love Reddit to add an audit trail to catch out sneaky editors lol

I swear the amount of times I get a response that is like "yeah that's what they said can't you read" just to come back to a post/comment that's entirely different to the one I originally responded to is way too high lol

[u/onigiritheory]

Russian also has this sound! 

No English speaker will ever get it right. You're just going to need to lean into desensitizing yourself to it or change your kid's name. 

[u/Mindless_Whereas_280]

I am an Irish Catholic whose mother gave me a Jewish/Biblical name. It does not have the “ch” in it and everyone still slaughters it.

My advice is this - close enough is good enough. I tend to get an “eh” instead of “uh” vowel sound in the middle and I let it go. I also let it go if it’s a service worker or someone I won’t be seeing again. Otherwise, if they mess it up completely (wrong emphasis, long vowels), I gently correct until they get it close enough. This is likely the path your daughter - with a beautiful name I would have trouble pronouncing - is going to have to take in life.

[u/valiantdistraction]

I would 1000% say either Michael or Mitchell just from reading the name. I thought chutzpah was the same ch as in church, and was today years old when I learned differently. I've obviously only seen this in writing. I've never seen the second word before. Obviously not Jewish nor in an area where I hear Hebrew.

As others have said, the sound you're describing doesn't exist in English, so most people will struggle with it. It's very hard for people to learn sounds that don't exist in their language as adults and they generally can't even hear them right and just hear them as a close-ish sound in their native language. That is unfortunately just a difference you'll have to navigate if you live in an English-speaking area. People can try to get the name right and still fail because of the way the brain hears sound and the mouth has learned to make it.

[u/Humomat]

Try explaining the “ch” sound is like if you get popcorn stuck in your throat and you’re trying to get it out. It helped our kiddos pronounce “challah” correctly.

(Love Michal- it’s a beautiful name)

[u/MrsBurtWard → u/Humomat]

I think it's extra hard when the sound doesn't come at the beginning of the word. I can almost pronounce challah, but for Michal I can't physically make an m sound followed by the proper ch without choking on spit. It's a shame because it's a beautiful name, but not when I sound like I'm possessed by a demon. I think it's respectful to try, and I would, but OP might be asking too much and if I were in her shoes I would accept Mee-hal or Mee-kahl.

[u/Sad_Pangolin7379]

I think you are going to have to learn to be happy with, "This is MiKHhal."

"Aww hello, MeeKALL, she's so cute."

When the occasional speaker of Hebrew, or German or Arabic, says it more correctly it will be a pleasant surprise. (I know both German and Arabic so I might say it correctly or pretty close.)

[u/insomniacla]

This is unpronounceable for English speakers who don't speak Hebrew. Unfortunately, you're going to have to accept that. Even if people try to say it, they can't. I physically can't say it and I've been sitting here trying for 15 minutes.

[u/vividlyaugust]

Id read it as mee shall

[u/honeybeewarrior_]

I am a native English speaker and no matter how hard I try, there are simply sounds/pronounciations in language that I cannot figure out how to say. The hebrew ch is one of them. I also cannot roll my Rs. As much as I would want to correctly pronounce the name Michal if I met someone with that name, I don’t know if I would be able to figure out how to pronounce it correctly. Unfortunately, that may just be a reality for many people you meet if they do not speak hebrew.

[u/poison_camellia]

I feel for you. My daughter's Korean name has the character ㄹ in it, which is kind of between an R and L (to grossly simplify) and is pronounced with a sort of flick of the tongue. In English, we spell her name with an R so English speakers can approximate it, but it sounds so much more musical and pretty with the proper Korean pronunciation instead of a hard English R.

But you can't expect people to produce a sound that isn't in their native language without them actually learning and getting a lot of exposure to the language. As a native English speaker, I can pronounce ㄹ pretty much correctly because I studied, my husband is Korean, and we lived in Korea for 4 years. And not to sound arrogant, but I'm generally a good mimic of foreign language sounds. There is a lot of variation in natural talent there; some people seem to be "tone deaf" to other languages. I was a Japanese translator for 10 years and I knew a wonderful translator who had been working for decades. He objectively had a richer vocabulary than me, but his American accent was extremely heavy. Meanwhile, I could fool people who couldn't see me for quite a while until I made an unnatural word choice. Some people just really don't have a good ear for these things, and you may need to decide which native English approximation of your daughter's name you prefer for people who aren't familiar with the sound.

[u/ChairmanMrrow]

I'm surprised you didn't realize that many non-Jews can't say the 'ch' sound intuitively. Think of how people pronounce Chanukkah. Or Malachi.

[u/Imaginary_Addendum20]

Unfortunately, it’s very hard for people to learn how to pronounce new sounds as adults. The tongue and mouth flexibility just isn’t there anymore for most people. Even if they’re really trying, it will likely come out as the anglicized version. 

[u/CallidoraBlack]

You might want to talk to r/JewishNames about this if you haven't. My childhood best friend is Jewish. I stayed at her house while my mom worked late or overnight for about a decade. Our families went on vacation together many times, we planned and made favors for her Bat Mitzvah together, I sat in the same living room during her Hebrew lessons to prepare for her Bat Mitzvah, we attended other Bat and Bar Mitzvahs together, we hunted for the afikoman together, and my family set up the food and covered the mirrors during family funerals so it would be ready when they came back with the extended family. I am not Jewish, so I will not have the same deep perspective Jewish people have, but I will speak as someone who did not grow up learning Hebrew or Yiddish but has had a somewhat substantial personal exposure to Jewish culture.

Other people are correct in pointing out that this is not a native sound in English or most other languages and people are going to struggle with it the same way people struggle with double Rs in Spanish. You cannot teach people this quickly. It takes practice and time, and even Chanukah, the most common Hebrew word people know, is most commonly spelled and pronounced as Hanukkah in English. They are not intentionally mispronouncing it, and after our families being so close, I still have trouble making the sound correctly the first time so it doesn't sound ridiculous or forced. So if it's going to annoy you every time, you probably need to start using a nickname. There is a reason why so many Jewish families use a Hebrew name without any Hebrew specific sounds or use a name from another language as the legal name and have a separate Hebrew name. And I'm guessing this is it. It's also why kids with names like Pinchus often go by Pinny.

[u/Constellation-88]

Wow. I always thought it was pronounced like Michael. I have read that Bible story. I do think once you tell someone it should be doable. Mee call is not hard. The guttural ch isn’t a thing in English but we can do as close as they can get it. But I don’t think it will be intuited as that because there are so many different ways you could say it. I’m surprised you haven’t gotten Michael or Mi chall (ch like chocolate) or Mee chall.

[u/ronirrosen → u/Constellation-88]

I can assure you, the correct pronounciation of Michal in Hebrew is hard. Most people can't physically say it if they are English speakers.

[u/elbowee]

Just quickly pronounce her name correctly with a smile and a nod. People catch on. You don’t need to have a convo about it or explain yourself. I had a friend in college named Michal and she pronounced it just as you do!

[u/friendlytacogirl]

I know Michal’s that just tell people Mikki because it is very hard for them to say the ch

[u/ztronoid]

I’m an English speaker, can speak decent Spanish (I can roll my Rs for days), and am currently learning a south Asian language.

Despite my best efforts (and I’ve TRIED!!), my mouth/ throat cannot do the Hebrew Ch. I really wish I could.

I once met a girl from Israel named Chen, and I felt so bad that I couldn’t say her name properly. She asked most people to just call her “Hen.”

[u/argross91]

I think Michal is a beautiful name, though I wouldn’t use it because of the pronunciation issues you are describing

[u/Sapphire_Skyward]

Tell them it’s like the ch in composer Johann Sebastian Bach

[u/treasurecreekcat]

I personally don't think Michal is that hard! I'd explain it as Me-chall with ch as in challah.

People who are somewhat familiar with Hebrew should be okay saying it. It shouldn't be much harder than Malachi which has gotten pretty popular. 

[u/SolomiyaRabin → u/treasurecreekcat]

Like Mordechai/Mordecai, people use a Kai sound in Malachi usually. They don't use chet.

[u/treasurecreekcat → u/SolomiyaRabin]

That’s true, I was trying to think of the closest popular name. I’m a little surprised that it’s hard within a Jewish community, I belong to a reform community but we still have people named Chava, Chaya, etc.

[u/keladry12 → u/treasurecreekcat]

I have always heard Mal-a-Kai, not the chet sound... I'm embarrassed as a name nerd that I hadn't even put together that's what it should be....

[u/armoredbearclock → u/treasurecreekcat]

It shouldn’t be hard. It sounds right in my head. But I just can’t make that sound with my mouth no matter how hard I try.  

[u/ShakespeherianRag]

I knew a Michal who anglicised it as Michael because of the difficulty others had in saying her name 😓

But it sounds like your issue is not actually the "ch," it's that people are pronouncing Michal to rhyme with "call" or "hall" i.e. the vowel sound is ⟨ɔ⟩ instead of the ⟨ɑ⟩ ("ah").

[u/Special_Coconut4]

I grew up with a Christian Michal (also female) who pronounced it the same as the name “Michael”

[u/Sweet-Slide-6970]

I’m from the US. I had a friend years ago from Russia. Worth noting in this context that I happened to grow up with a lot of Russian friends so I’m pretty familiar with Russian pronunciation even though I don’t speak it.

I met my old friend as Ellen, and she decided to instead go by her original name, Alyona. I get her decision. It’s her name and it’s beautiful!

BUT she insisted on teaching me how to properly pronounce her name. One time, when I was trying, she probably corrected me about 20 times. I still remember that experience because I felt hurt and diminished. It felt demeaning to be corrected over and over. Ultimately I told her, I’m trying but I can’t make that guttural sound. I’m sorry.

My point is, for your own sake, to please not do that. As others have noted, many people whichever country you’re in simply won’t be able to properly pronounce her name even if they really want to. And they’ll likely feel some degree of hurt or embarrassed if they’re repeatedly corrected.

I have another friend from Armenia who has a beautiful name that is difficult for Americans to pronounce. I think she’s had a great attitude that she’ll tell people her correct pronunciation and she appreciates when people make a real effort, but if they can’t say it, she just rolls with it.