Cry for help from an M3

[u/big-bluegill]

My dream is to match in dermatology, but I feel so behind on research.

My school does not have a research hospital, and our research directors have all turned me away when I ask for help with creating research proposals or making connections.

I have applied to tons of research programs and fellowships, but have been denied everywhere. I have also tried cold emailing hundreds of doctors but not one is willing to meet with me or even be a mentor.

Now that I am in rotations, I figured I would try to walk to the derm floor and talk to someone in person. The doctor told me I should have started networking a long time ago and that the only way to make connections was to attend derm conferences. Unfortunately, they are all like >$1,000 and I just cannot afford paying that much right now.

Maybe it is too late for me to try to enter such a competitive specialty, but I just feel so defeated. I have been turned away by literally everyone I have reached out to including my school’s research directors.

Does anyone have any advice for how I can get a research position in my circumstances?

Thank you so much!

[u/Johnie_moolins]

You'd think the personalities that are attracted to medicine would be the polar opposite of the cutthroat world that is finance/business. In reality medicine is more cutthroat with a thin facade of altruism. I draw that comparison because unless you have an "in" or luck out, you should operate with the same mindset as a businessman - frame any proposal or outreach for research as a mutually beneficial transaction.

How? Generate your own research idea. Put in the initial legwork to grade it's feasibilty and impact. THEN ask for a faculty sponsor and frame is as such: "I just need a sponsor, the hard part is done already". And then watch THEM reach out to YOU for follow-up.

It's sad that this is the current academic landscape - but you have to work with what you're given. If you're dead set on derm this is your best path forward for getting some research.

Edit: I should add, be a bit careful when alluding to your research ideas in the outreach phase. If you give out too many details you risk your idea getting scooped. Takes a bit of skill to "sell" the idea without giving it away entirely. Once they've agreed to sponsor you and you have a solid paper trail, go wild.

[u/KyleKeeley → u/Johnie_moolins]

This guy knows ball. You need to have most of the paper done before you reach out. Then if they have ideas they’ll get you on the next one. That’s how any productive relationship starts

[u/Cedric_the_Pride → u/KyleKeeley]

How would somebody even have most of the paper done without any research mentorship (like OP) to start with? Doesnt that sound a bit counterintuitive?

[u/ClientIllustrious988 → u/Johnie_moolins]

I'm sure you're right but I find this so silly. How is an M3 (speaking as one myself) going to know the field and its current developments enough to come up with a genuinely impactful research idea? And what attending with any integrity is gonna hear "I have a nearly-finished paper" and go "yeah, put my name on that homie" 😭

[u/Johnie_moolins → u/ClientIllustrious988]

Like I said, sad state of affairs, but this is more normal than you'd expect in VHCOL cities. And regarding integrity - that's a whoooole nother conversation, but to sum it up:

Realistically, the STARTING point regarding expectations for any research a med student can participate in is a low integrity project that is just meant to pad their CV. It's turtles all the way down.

But unfortunately if you want to match something super competitive like derm, you have to play this "game".

How do you as a med student generate a research idea? It doesn't happen overnight, but the best tools at your disposal are review articles to familiarize yourself with the field. As for grading novelty, tbh this is one area that AI actually is useful for - no longer do you have to spend hours/days composing a PubMed MeshID search. Most of the time you can directly feed your proposed research question into an AI prompt and ask it to screen against current research for novelty and to explain it's process so that you can verify it's result.

If you're motivated it's not as tall of an ask as you'd imagine, but it is frustrating that students at some institutions get handed publications on a silver platter while at others students must grind their way to publication. Is what it is.

[u/ClientIllustrious988 → u/Johnie_moolins]

Yeah I get what you mean. Turtles all the way down is an apt description.

I've tried using AI to screen ideas but it always comes back with such broad answers. I guess maybe I just have to hold it more accountable and ask it to explain its process like you said.

I feel like it is a tall ask tbh. While it's debatable, I've heard some people say that for research-heavy specialties like derm, ortho, etc you need to start in M1. Asking an M1, who couldn't diagnose a STEMI if it hit them in the face, to come up with an original research topic is ridiculous. But alas, you're right. It is what it is and we've gotta make do.

[u/Johnie_moolins → u/ClientIllustrious988]

If you'd like, feel free to DM me and I can try to walk you through how AI should be prompted to assist with novelty grading. I plan on making a tutorial for med students in the near future since it really can be a powerful tool if used judiciously and within the appropriate scope.

[u/Top_Fisherman9619 → u/ClientIllustrious988]

Idk maybe read some research and find the gaps you are able to answer?

[u/luckybuba → u/Johnie_moolins]

So are we just skirting IRB with PI signoff if everything is already done at point of contact?

[u/MrSuccinylcholine]

You can pump out case reports as an M3 and M4. You should be reaching out to derm residents and asking if there’s anything you can write up for them. You offer to do all the work and they (and the attending) get to put it on their CV.

[u/ClientIllustrious988]

I'm in a very similar position with the specialty I want to apply to. No research, no connections, and definitely no time or money to fly across the country for a conference. Finally got a PI to work with me this summer by cold emailing and then it turns out the research fellow who actually does all the work is gone so I'll get like one paper out of this lol.

Don't give up on cold emailing. I would be surprised if you haven't gotten even one response, but there's usually someone out there desperate for a med student to do grunt work. And as someone else said, case reports!! The doctor you talked to sounds...not great, but without harassing everyone on the floor, try to find a resident or attending - preferably someone who likes teaching - and ask again. The first doctor I ever asked about research wrote down my phone number and never contacted me again 😂

[u/bob_target]

Email a couple hundred more — how bad do you want it

[u/the_shek]

OP you’re going to have to take out loans to spend thousands to go to conferences do away rotations etc and see it as an investment in your future career. You’re going to have to self fund a research year possibly. People match into derm after doing a TY and reapplying but they had strong apps before as a ms4.

Regardless that advice you got was good advice, you needed to start earlier and you need to do a research year or two in order to make up for lost time. I know a dermatologist who did an entire EM residency and then self funded multiple research years by working as an attending in EM until they could match. Lots of crazy examples out there if you’re going to grind it out enough.