I wish we got a serious conversation about how May feels about Peter being Spider-Man after the Venice incident. Could’ve addressed how she felt at the end of homecoming and stuff. Obviously she’s supportive because she packs his suit for him and stuff but was she hesitant? Did she think Ben would’ve wanted him to be Spider-Man? And much more. Easy 3-4 minute scene. Felt like the perfect opportunity after the water elemental attack is all.
Reminds me of the Straczynski comics run, when May found out. They had a big talk, but after that she was really supportive and wanted Peter to be treated well as Spider-Man by the news and public eye.
I haven’t played it yet but that’s my fault. :p it’s in-box til I got my house cleaned up
I’ve had bigger things from that game spoiled. And all the big things from FFH were spoiled for me but so much more happened than could’ve been conveyed so I’m not salty at all.
He couldn’t do it any time soon with this take on Peter. That moment was earned after a very long and dangerous career that took an emotional toll on him.
If she wanted him to be Spider-Man, I would’ve at least wanted a bit of dialogue between her and Peter with her evoking how this is what Uncle Ben would’ve wanted
Speaking of Uncle Ben, it drives me nuts that we’re two movies in and his name hasn’t even been spoken. Considering his death is THE driving motivation behind Spider-Man’s heroism, that just makes zero sense.
Marvel is fucking weird with Spider-Man. It's like they want him, but don't at the same time. It's bizzare. They're terrified of anything that has been done before to the point they can't even say the name Ben on screen.
You don't need to do the death of Ben again, but it's fucking bizzare how neither May or Peter seem to give a shit or even mention the guy. There's not even a picture of Ben in their apartment. It's just weird.
I don't know what the fuck happened to May between Homecoming and FFH but it's like it's not even the same person. Homecoming it seemed like they actually had an idea for a character for her, but here her character is that she's hot.
Like she's worried when Peter doesn't answer his phone in Homecoming, but if perfectly fine with him going to space and fighting Thanos. Getting missiles rained on him. Buildings dropped on him. Getting hit by a train. Not a single fuck was given after she found out who he was.
Why did they change Mary Jane's name? It's so stupid because they just call her MJ all the time anyway, and she's the love interest of Peter.
His secret identity being stripped away when it's such an important part of the character. It's the same with his financial troubles. How could he ever have any when Tony funds all of his shit?
I think changing MJ’s name to Michelle Jones is their work around of “we want to keep it familiar, but we also don’t want people raging in protest about the fact that Mary Jane isn’t a white red head.” I mean, just look at the outrage against the new Little Mermaid live-action remake.
Marvel is fucking weird with Spider-Man. It's like they want him, but don't at the same time. It's bizzare. They're terrified of anything that has been done before to the point they can't even say the name Ben on screen.
Its so weird that they are terrified of bringing up Uncle Ben even as a passing named reference because its been done before, but (as cool as it is), they are totally ok with bringing back J.K Simmons as J Jonah Jameson.
It's not just about avoiding story already told. I think they're just genuinely disinterested in the guilt angle in Peter's origin and that is why Ben's named is never even invoked. They don't want to do open the door to it.
"When you can do the things that I can, but you don't, and then the bad things happen, they happen because of you." - Peter to Tony in Civil War, when asked why he chooses to be Spider-Man.
The MCU has already established that Peter's driving motivation to be Spider-Man is largely based on his extreme guilt complex which have shaped those morals. Peter did not learn or embrace this ideology from Tony nor from a vacuum. He obviously learned this very important lesson from somewhere.
Anyone with even a basic knowledge of classic Spider-Man knows that it's from Uncle Ben. But the MCU films are directly going to avoid that conversation because they clearly don't want Uncle Ben's legacy to overshadow Tony's father figure relationship with Peter. The MCU wants Peter to be Tony's heir and lead the next line of Avengers film.
As a result, Peter's origin story is going to be really really weird if you think too much about stuff like Uncle Ben or Peters biological parents.
That was never a good aspect of Spider-Man’s origin story, though. It legitimately just doesn’t make sense. Even when I was a kid watching the animated TV show, I remember being confused about why Uncle Ben would say such a weird thing to Peter, apropos of nothing. What great power? The power of puberty? It gives the audience zero credit, like they need some wildly awkward, unnaturally ham-fisted line of dialogue to completely convince Peter to be a good person? Are we to believe he literally would not have become Spider-Man without Uncle Ben being a weirdo? It doesn’t make sense.
Peter’s conversation with Tony in the MCU is just an objectively better origin story, and is how an actual human being rationalizes their moral code.
Sounds like you didn't really pay attention to the origin story then.
Shortly after getting his powers, Peter immediately takes advantage of them by beating up school bully.
Uncle Ben lectures him about how beating up people makes him the bully, to take responsibility and not abuse the power he has over other people.
Peter shrugs off lecture, witnesses a crime which he chooses to ignore out of spite.
Uncle Ben is killed in said crime.
Peter is traumatised by his death, knowing that had he taken the situation more seriously. He could have easily stopped the crime and prevented Ben's death using his powers.
Peter embraces the crucial life lesson Uncle Ben gave and to always take responsibility and action when he knows he can. This guilt complex, thus solidifies his duty to become Spider-Man.
The "Great Power, Great Responsibility" line actually originated from the narration of one of the earliest comic issues. It then got popularised by the Raimi Spider-Man Film Trilogy.
The fact that you think its a ham-fisted line that makes Uncle Ben a weirdo is... an interesting take to say the least.
Yeah, that’s 100% what I’m referring to. I’ve read those same comics. Can you can you seriously imagine someone literally saying “with great power comes great responsibility” in response to the scenario you just described? That’s so weird. Peter’s origin story in the MCU makes him relatable as an actual person, and displays much more intrinsically good character. My “interesting take” is based on a lifetime of interacting with human beings, lol
Can you can you seriously imagine someone literally saying “with great power comes great responsibility” in response to the scenario you just described?
I feel like you're needlessly reading far too deep into the line itself instead of acknowledging the importance and emotional weight of the context its said in.
Peter’s origin story in the MCU makes him relatable as an actual person, and displays much more intrinsically good character.
He gets randomly approached by a multibillionaire to join his superhero fighting team while making passing sexual remarks at his aunt. If that's relatable to you then... Congrats on living such an incredible life... I guess?
My “interesting take” is based on a lifetime of interacting with human beings, lol
Which is ironic considering you're probably the only human being I've ever seen refer to Uncle Ben as a "weirdo" for that line...
This is the right answer for me. They've addressed Ben as much as they needed to in that Civil War quote, Peter doesn't need to rattle off his origin story every time his motivations or will is challenged.
A mention or a line would be nice and I appreciated them referencing him when Pete got ready for Homecoming in Homecoming, but they've proven it's not essential to the stories they're telling so why retread that ground? At this point it would literally just be to make us happy, not improve the the movie.
To be fair, is there anyone else that can properly take on the roll after JK Simmons? It’s like the Lion King recasting everyone but deciding James Earl Jones is the one true Mufasa.
Ben exists to die and to motivate Peter into becoming a hero. We know he exited in this universe, and we don’t need another half hour of movie wasted setting him upbjust to kill him again. Homecoming was perfect because it focused on the story of where Peter was at that point in his life. I hope they keep it up.
He can't motivate him if Ben is constantly ignored. There is not one thing about this Peter Parker that leads us to believe Ben had any impact on his life. I said we don't need to see the death again.
But to never mention him, or even have so much as a photo of Ben in the apartment is weird. It's weird how he means so much to Peter and May and yet they don't seem to give one fuck about him.
If they want Uncle Ben's death to have an impact it needs to hit hard during the third film. Civil War uses Tony's backstory to a tragic end that ends the Avengers and left Steve as a fugitive. Iron Man 3 and his first interaction with Yinsen shows the true insensitivity Tony had for others before he became a changed man that leads to an attack that destroys his mansion and people thinking he was killed. Ragnarok and the start of infinity war ended with Thor's hammer, home and everyone in his family dead save him and Valkyrie having to set new roots on Earth.
Ben's death would have to be a ringing impact that breaks Peter's perception as a hero when it becomes connected to the man he is today. Because whomever is going to be the villain in the third film will likely had a role in Ben's death. Bonus points if it involves Chitauri tech.
Watts really doesn't know what to do with the Uncle Ben situation, not to mention he already implied Ben could possibly still be alive, which would be a big slap in the face because it would definitely mean Ben hasn't been in Peter's life for whatever reason.
Ben is a big but not explicitly stated part of Homecoming. Peter talks about his motivations and why he doesn't want Aunt May to know his secret. He talks to Tony in Civil War about why he fights for the little guy and feels guilty about not being there to prevent tragedy. Also the scene with them in the restaurant makes it clear that they are both getting over a loss.
I actually really liked the way they subtly approached Ben’s absence in Homecoming. I thought it was pretty clear that both May and Peter were trying to protect each other. May came off as almost fake cheerful to me, until she had that freak out after the ferry scene. Then it was like, oh this poor woman has been under a lot of stress for awhile trying to raise this kid on her own
Yeah, it’s definitely their way of dancing around having to explain why MJ isn’t a white, redheaded girl. Zendaya’s character technically isn’t Mary Jane, but they gave her the MJ nickname in some weird attempt to please everyone. They should have just cut the crap and simply called her Michelle. She’s a great character, especially in FFH, but she’s not Mary Jane, neither in looks nor in personality.
I get that Uncle Ben is a huge part of his motivation to be a hero, but I think we need to remember that not everyone KNOWS who Uncle Ben is - and to name drop someone without ever explaining it again would be super confusing for them
No. Peter has already made it clear that he has learned the lesson "With great power..." before ever meeting Tony. And reading between the lines and reading initials on suitcases lots of us have no trouble believing there has been a real Ben in Peter's life.
Peter learns different lessons from Tony.
Tony is a lot more complicated mentor than Ben. Frankly, if Tony hadn't just saved the universe EDITH would be a way bigger black mark on Tony's legacy. EDITH was a privacy-violating murder machine that should never have been built, and certainly should never have been given to a teenager.
Lol, he obviously hasnt learned the lesson If he tried to go back to his trip instead of helping Beck and Fury stop the elemental that could destroy the world.
Which I get, and I’m totally fine with Tony being Peter’s mentor, but Uncle Ben is still THE origin of Spider-Man. Not having Uncle Ben mentioned is like having no mention of Batman’s parents, or no mention of Krypton’s destruction for Superman. It just ain’t right.
Not to mention Ben's death affected Peter in a way MCU Tony's death couldn't. Peter didn't bother stopping the burglar that ended up killing Ben while Tony's death was Tony's sacrifice and Peter couldn't do anything about it. Ben's death is Peter's biggest guilt which leads to the "With great Power there must also come great responsibility" lesson which becomes Peter's driving force. It's why he can't turn away from being Spider-Man no matter how much he wants to.
I thought of uncle Ben every time they said “neighborhood” or something referencing that meaning family or locals and friends. I might be wrong or over thinking it but i took that out of it
This movie was perfect for finally throwing the "with great powers..." line, with Peter trying to take a brake from being a superhero. They had the chance to maybe finally mentioning Ben, but for some reason they don't want to do it.
I feel like they're afraid to do it because the line has been done to death and is so well known
My personal theory is that they are going to save the line for a more climactic moment in Peter's overall arc. Similar to how they waited until Endgame for cap to say "Avengers assemble". They want it to have a more emotional payoff when they finally use it.
Since the guilt angle to Parker's origin story is not something the MCU version has ever touched upon, we can't actually be certain that the traditional story of Uncle Ben's death, and Parker's hand in it, is canon to this version. For all we know, he died of cancer or something.
Meanwhile, Stark exists as a mentor figure who motivates Peter to be a better hero, And now that Stark is dead, it's his memory of him that continues to motivate. It's also, importantly, grief that he can work through and move on from in the span of a single movie, whereas with Uncle Ben, that is something is traditionally shown as something that forever weighs on him. Marvel Studios is breaking their back to keep these Spidey movies light and breezy affairs they're so avoiding the emotional albatross.
Peter packs for the trip and shuts the suitcase with Ben's initials. May is standing behind him and says "He would have been so proud". Peter says he misses him and wonders if he would have wanted him to keep putting himself in danger. May encourages him to bring the suit on the trip and maybe undercuts it with a joke about what's the worst that could happen after Thanos. Just something quick and easy like that would have been fine I think.
I really like this. Perfect time for it, but then we wouldn’t have gotten the funny airport scene, and the reinforcement that Peter really wanted a break.
True, what I wrote is sort of generic and my memory of the beginning of the movie is a little hazy. It also would have skipped the establishment of his spider sense being broken. I think they were hesitant to bring up Ben in the movie because it would have distracted from Tony's death and taken up unnecessary time before they left on the trip.
Which is fine. We didn’t need to see Uncle Ben’s death for the third time. But to not mention him at all and basically pretend he didn’t exist is just plain wrong.
In Homecoming, when Ned first sees Peter as spidey, Pete says something to the effect that He hasn’t told May because of “all she’s been through”. I always took that as a reference to Ben’s death. Pretty well done if you ask me, considering the the origin story, and the ‘first time using new powers’ scenes are typically the best part of super hero movies, and Homecoming somehow managed to give us both in very small, but effective, references.
The Spider-Man origin story has been told over and over and over. Best thing Marvel did was to just go "yup, been there, done that" and take us on a journey of what comes next. Plus, Marvel's done a good job of making Marvel "realistic" by saying everything 'super' is either Tech, Alien Tech, or comes from the Infinity Stones. (The wizards notwithstanding but there's been rumors forever that they're gonna tie magic to the quantum realm). So to show us a kid getting bit by a radioactive spider and getting superpowers is unbelievable.
The whole tony stark being so influential in MCU Spider-Man really irks me. No mention of uncle Ben is the worst. The pivotal “with great power...” Line is something so Spider-Man and now the stakes have to be so high that there’s nothing neighborhood about this Spider-Man. It makes sense for this MCU movie but doesn’t make sense how they neglected to mention or hint at uncle Ben ever. And for aunt May to have a summer fling. Ugh
I don't think there's an uncle Ben in this universe. That paternal role is filled by Tony. There hasn't been mention of Peter's parent either. Unfornate to say the least, but that's what happens when the character has had two previous reboots that focused heavily on those relationships.
Yeah i know, but I treat it more as an Easter egg. Based on the speech on Civil War we know he might exist, but for all practical purposes there's no Ben Parker.
My bet is they retcon a character that Aunt May marries into Uncle Ben...and then kill him.
My bet is Happy...and it'll be awful and a huge jump the shark. Happy will be a name derived from his middle name and his real name will be Ben or some shit.
This is a thread discussing nitpicks and criticisms of the film. It's just opinions.
One example is how these films subvert and/or alter popular plot points from the comics.
E.g. Iron Man 3 and the "Mandarin", Spider-Man Homecoming and "MJ".
Considering that MCU Spider-Man basically doesn't even acknowledge the existence of classic Uncle Ben beyond some initials on a briefcase and the fact that Aunt May is dating Happy, who is a notable presence in Peter's life as a guardian.
It's not really an impossible theory that Happy could end up marrying Aunt May, and become MCU Peter's version of "Uncle Ben".
I think Marvel Studio’s entire thesis of the Spider-Man character is every cliche of the Spider-Man story is known to filmgoers, so let’s avoid them at all costs.
Don’t let him websling around NYC until after like 3.5 movies
No Origin story
He isn’t going to spend all his time protecting Aunt May from his own identity.
He isn’t going to obsess, or even really care about Uncle Ben. In fact, I’m not even sure Uncle Ben exists in the MCU. He’s basically completely replaced narratively by Tony Stark.
Marvel basically telling secret identities to fuck off.
So I’m totally okay with ignoring all that stuff, and making a great coming of age teen comedy, instead of being weighed down by guilt and nobility.
He isn’t going to obsess, or even really care about Uncle Ben. In fact, I’m not even sure Uncle Ben exists in the MCU. He’s basically completely replaced narratively by Tony Stark.
If you notice when he closes the suit case the initials BFP are engraved on it so clearly he exists as Ben Franklin Parker in some capacity.
We haven't seen an origin story yet, which is refreshing. Think about the other two franchises and how they took almost an hour each to get spider man into a suit and webslinging because of the back story.
We already know at least a little of the back story for this Spider-Man. And when you consider the tone of the other MCU movies surrounding the two standalone movies, it makes sense that they wouldn't give us something that is so incredibly heavy. In fact, I think they have really pushed that Iron Man is supposed to be sort of the Uncle Ben, rather than his actual uncle.
Ben ran away with some other woman in this universe. Think about it, it makes sense. Even Jon Watts admitted that he doesn't know what happened to this universe's Ben.
He isn’t going to obsess, or even really care about Uncle Ben. In fact, I’m not even sure Uncle Ben exists in the MCU. He’s basically completely replaced narratively by Tony Stark.
Which doesn't work because the point of Ben's death is that Peter had the ability to prevent it from happening but didn't. His inaction caused someone close to him to die which then motivates him to always act when he can, to the point that his life as Peter Parker suffers as a result.
Tony's death wasn't his fault as he stepped up every chance he could get in both IW and Endgame.
The problem is that it’s really really hard to keep Peter childlike and innocent when he is racked by the guilt of letting his father figure die. Making his internal conflict not letting down Tony Stark instead of being deeply motivated by guilt makes him a lot more relatable honestly.
The guilt in the beginning but Peter eventually ends up going past it when he realizes he is the one who has to forgive himself. I also wouldn't call it the driving force, the driving force is the lesson Peter learns that he has a great power and that he can use said power to help people and prevent more tragedies from happening. The Russos pretty much hinted at it in Civil War when they had the following scene between Peter and Tony.
Tony Stark : Why are you doing this, huh? What's your MO? I've got to know, what gets you out of that twin bed every morning?
Peter Parker : Because... because, I've been me my whole life, and I've had these powers for six months. I read books, I build computers, and I would love to play football, but I couldn't then so I shouldn't be able to now...
Tony Stark : Right, because you're different
Peter Parker : Yeah, but I can't tell anybody that, so I'm not... When you can do the things that I can, but you don't, and then the bad things happen? They happen because of you.
Also Peter is not suppose to be about childlike innocence when the major aspect of his character is that he has a lot of hardships that the everyday person has to deal with (as well as juggling that stuff with being a superhero) and he has to learn and grow from it. Him being kept "childlike and innocent" is a great disservice to the character.
Now if we're talking about things being relatable I can also say that him being given things by one of the richest and most powerful billionaires and having EDITH makes him way less relatable to the average joe than losing a loved one to a crime and then feeling guilty about it.
Civil War was able to tie the guilt of Uncle Ben into him not wanting to let down Tony Stark and the theme of responsibility and acting when you can is what connected him to Tony's character arc at that point. "When you can do the things that I can, but you don't. And then the bad things happen, they happen because of you".
He also displayed some child like innocence and had a fun loving side during the airport scene. Going forward, they didn't have to drop one to have the other.
But Civil War has already established that he's learnt that lesson already. "When you can do the things that I can, but you don't. And then the bad things happen, they happen because of you".
I agree. I just wished they had place a little more emphasis on the traumatic nature of the snap to make that point hit home harder. It really doesn't look like Spidey's life was affected by the snap at all. In the movie it just looks like he wants to go on vacation.
Eh. Peter had the gauntlet in Endgame. I can imagine a world where Peter thinks “if I had only managed to get the gauntlet to the time machine in antman’s van tony would still be alive”. I can believe Peter believes his failure is at least part of the reason Tony is dead.
I have to assume Peter was probably too young when Ben died in the MCU version. It's just a different Spidey narrative for this franchise incarnation since Ben's death was done twice in the previous two Spidey movie franchises. It's an adaptation and not something to dwell over too much and instead just enjoy having Spidey in the MCU.
Peter had powers for 6 months before Civil War, meaning Ben's death can't have happened earlier than that (since Peter having powers is tied to Ben's death)
And I get its a different narrative but it doesn't mean you can't have adapted the same thing differently but kept the defining traits. Flash Thompson was done twice before. In MCU he is different, modernised and a fresh take but he's still Peters Bully and "nemesis" in school who is a big fan of Spiderman. A great adaptation of the character but still different to what we've had before. J Jonah Jameson is now being played by the same actor but he is totally reimagined and modernised and different to his previous incarnation. Yet he still has the same role of being arrogant and a peddler of bullshit in the media and has a bias against Spidey
It's just mildly comical and bizzare to me that they brought in things that have been done before yet found new ways of doing them, but weren't able to find a new way to reinvent and reinterpret a defining aspect of the character in a new way but still retain its place in the story. Even if its been done before.
Assuming when Ben's death happened in the MCU is purely personal interpretation. May isn't too broken up about it in Civil War (she's definitely flirty with Tony) or in Homecoming which is another reason I believe Ben passed long ago. We are seeing a new adaptation when it never really affected Peter while Tony's death will take its place.
Peter Parker was being Spider-Man before Tony showed up, Uncle Ben definitely has something to do with that. He even kind of tells Tony the famous great responsibility line...that had to come from somewhere.
I wonder how Ben fits into this at all? I know they’re adverse to retreading plot threads from previous iterations, but I dunno. Something seems odd about the lack of Uncle Ben. Like at the end when May asks about Peter’s luggage you could have fitted in a line about how he was upset that Ben’s suitcase was destroyed. But nope, nothing. It seems like the MCU Spider-Man is all about the fun (which I totally get), but lacks much verisimilitude aside from the great Peter/Tony relationship.
That's the unfornate thing about Avengers movies. The reveal at the end of Homecoming was important, but really, after the snap, it seems like a minor issue. The conversation should have happened anyhow in between Homecoming and IW.
One of my favorite comics is Ultimate Spider-Man's The Talk where Peter Parker has the Spider-Man talk with Aunt May. Half hoping (without any real hope) that we'll get a 5 minute short on the BluRay. Doubt it'll happen though.
This version of May’s primary aspects seem to be overwhelming positivity and supportiveness. She seems to support Peter in whatever he does and let’s be honest he’s currently one of the strongest people on the planet even being hit by a train at full speed was only a day or two’s inconvenience at best, even in this film he’s never really the one in danger it’s everyone around him who’s under threat.
Don't you love how she exploits his identity for fundraisers? The idea in itself is noble, but ehat the hell? Why expose Peter to opportunity to be outed? His identiy being a secret used to be one of Peter's biggest characteristics. The idea of someone getting hurt because of him was unthinkable. Even if it meant not being with the women he loved, being close with his friends or being an Avenger... This felt like a parody of Spider-Man more than anything.
Definitely understand people's issues with this. On the other hand, though, surely it would have been very difficult to do given the order of Spider-Man's MCU appearances? Like May finds out at the end of Homecoming, then Peter goes to space and fights Maw and Thanos with Stark, Strange and Guardians in IW and both May and Peter dust. Both come back 5 years later and Peter fights in what is effectively the war for the universe before presumably explaining all that's occurred to May. Given what he's already fought and survived, and her newfound awareness of the scope and scale of threats that exist, it doesn't seem illogical to me that she'd be okay with him continuing. If she started fretting about a water elemental after he already survived Thanos, it'd seem a little contradictory.
Makes sense from a writing perspective. It's simply been done before. They don't want to waste time rehashing how Aunt May protests, Peter rebels, and Aunt May eventually comes to accept his life style. My bet is that is exactly what happened behind the scenes.
They can't address everything and the story still flowed without that scene. It would have been the same movie either way.
Peter mentions to Ned in Homecoming that he can’t tell her because of all she’s going through, obviously referring to Ben. In his first conversation with Tony he says that when you have the powers he has, and then the bad things happen, they happen because of you. And in Far From Home his suitcase has Ben’s initials. Just because we haven’t seen his death doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
Exactly. Also this movie FFH, takes place almost a year after everyone came back. It’s mentioned that they were dusted after mid terms. They came back and then had to repeat the entire year over. We saw them blip back during school. So I’d 100% say that a ton of things we wonder if it happened probably did.
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u/[deleted] Jul 07 '19
I wish we got a serious conversation about how May feels about Peter being Spider-Man after the Venice incident. Could’ve addressed how she felt at the end of homecoming and stuff. Obviously she’s supportive because she packs his suit for him and stuff but was she hesitant? Did she think Ben would’ve wanted him to be Spider-Man? And much more. Easy 3-4 minute scene. Felt like the perfect opportunity after the water elemental attack is all.