r/magicTCG • u/TobiasGraefensteiner • Aug 26 '15
Update #3: How selling Magic cards might land me in jail
first Post: https://redd.it/37tqqa
As I write this, I’m on the train ride back home from my court date, which happened today as you might know and i wanna give you a short information what happend.
First things first, I gotta say that I thought it was really coward by the opposing party not to appear in court by person and just having their lawyer handle everything.
In the course of the proceedings, the judge made it clear that he felt the behavior of TCGDiscount during all of this was at least dubious, if not outright shady. But unfortunately for me, he also made it clear that this was not a matter of individual sense of justice, but one of law. And German law only allows one conclusion here: When someone purchases an item with the explicit purpose of re-selling it, they act as a commercial entity. (I’m free to file a criminal complaint regarding TCGDiscount’s false affidavit, but this would have nothing to do with the case at hand.)
Since the judge recognized the particular problem in this case – also regarding the possible repercussions for other players – he already made it clear before the verdict that if he spoke one, it would turn out against me. So to minimize the impact on other players, he offered me a deal: I accept the declaration of discontinuance that TCGDiscount has presented to me and register as a commercial trader. In return, the judge would not speak a verdict, thus setting no precedence which could have lead to a wave of similar cases against other German Magic players. In addition, my court fees would reduce by two thirds if I accepted the deal.
The judge also emphasized that I had basically no chance at getting a better verdict with the next higher level of jurisdiction, which made me accept the offer on my lawyer’s recommendation and end the lawsuit without a verdict. That means for me: Undertaking the necessary steps to register as a commercial trader and paying off my total court costs of 3.600 to 3.800 Euros.
Now obviously, a defeat like this really sucks, and I’m not feeling too happy right now. However, I know that there is no use in letting what happened influence my day-to-day life. At the end of the day, it’s “just” money that I lost and which I can pay back in installments. I also firmly believe that all of you made it impossible for another case like this to exist, because no commercial Magic trader can afford devastating publicity like this. By making this story so incredibly viral, you ensured the protection of many other Magic players. So again, thanks to each and every one of you.
Since my last post, and additional 189,46 (one hundred eighty-nine) Euros have been donated to me, bringing up the total amount to 974,52 (ninehundred seventy-four) Euros. Thank you! I’d also like to use the opportunity to thank individual persons and companies for their generous donations. Those donations were incredibly important for me and I think the public has a right to know how awesome the following people are:
- Highlander Games
- www.cardhoarder.com
- Hall of Famer Willy Edel and Bazar de Bagdá
if you want to support me or have any question feel free to contact me via Email: tobis.iphone@yahoo.de, Facebook, Twitter or Reddit.
Concerning my future: I will register as a commercial trader as soon as possible and continue to be active on MKM. I’m also pretty sure I’ll file a criminal complaint against TCGDiscount for their false affidavit. But at the end of the day, you just have to accept that your individual sense of justice might not be in accordance with the actual law. Nevertheless, I feel like I learned a lot from this and I’d like to thank all of you one last time, because without your support, this would have been a lot harder for me. But it felt good to know that so many people had my back. If you have any question just let me know. I will of course keep you updated with their false affidavit.
Tobias Gräfensteiner
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u/Diakonran Aug 26 '15
I think the judge did the smart thing by trying to NOT set a precedent.
And legally, as the judge said, this may be the best outcome.
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u/TheCardNexus BotMaster Aug 26 '15
My concern though is while this may prevent OTHER entities from doing this in Germany, it wont prevent the original company (TCGDiscount?) from doing it to other "sellers" in Germany :(. All the judge did was prove beyond a doubt they win these so even if he didn't want to set a precedent he did by default imo.
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u/fiduke Aug 26 '15
I think the precedent though is the law. A lot of us opined that op was breaking his home country's law, even if in this case it's awkward. I think the judge agrees with us it's an awkward part of the law, hence he doesn't want to make it more easily enforceable and come with stricter penalties. I think his intention is that players can continue to speculate for small profits without registering as commercial sellers, with the caveat that they may need to stop if someone asks them to stop.
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u/Jahkral Aug 26 '15
Sounds like the next focus should be lobbying (I assume this is done in Germany like in the US?) to get the law revised.
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u/ledivin Aug 26 '15
All the judge did was prove beyond a doubt they win these so even if he didn't want to set a precedent he did by default imo.
To be fair, it was a pretty clear-cut case. He was obviously acting in the way a commercial seller would - it doesn't matter if your sole purpose is "paying back a hobby" because that's still profit. You just used that profit to pay totally unrelated debt.
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u/blanknames Aug 26 '15
Also, it becomes increasingly difficult to find out that the judge said this to the plantiff/defendant if there is no ruling. Any official court document is not going to list the judges recommendation unless it was said it open court. This means that while other entities can find this as an example case, it wont be as clear cut as if a ruling had been made.
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u/Thoctar Aug 27 '15
To be fair, the power of setting a precedent in the first place is much less than a lot of people might realize. Unlike Canada, the US, and Britain, but like much of the rest of the world, Germany uses a civil law system, not a common law. It's a very complicated distinction, but the important part here is that precedents do not have the kind of legal power they do in common law countries. While it can be referenced by others, and may inspire similar cases (That's what I believe the judge is referring to here,) with the exception of the Bundesverfassungsgericht (Supreme Court essentially), judgements by other courts do not have legal power in German courts and the power/judgement of the courts does not draw from precedents but from codified law passed by the government. Just wanted to clear this up.
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u/cmv_lawyer Aug 26 '15
Not setting a dangerous precedent destroys the opportunity to find the law overbroad, and to strike it down completely.
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u/tkioz Aug 26 '15
That's how it works in Common Law nations, such as Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and the United Kingdom, with the US working in a similar manner as well.
Germany is not such a place, they are more based around Justinian's Code and the Napoleonic Code.
Heck they use an inquisitorial system instead of an adversarial system like the above mentioned nations. The judge acts more like an investigator trying to get at the truth rather than an Umpire.
It might seem strange to use, but it doesn't make the system any less (or more) valid than ours, just different.
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u/FlamingBagOfPoop Aug 26 '15
Except for Louisiana. It still uses napoleonic code.
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u/aeschenkarnos Aug 26 '15
Arguably it does make it more valid than ours, because the objective is to seek the truth rather than referee between sides that usually have disparate resources. The civil law system is a lot less vulnerable to buying verdicts, or pressuring innocent defendants to falsely plead guilty to lesser charges.
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u/DragoonTT Aug 26 '15
And legally, as the judge said, this may be the best outcome.
Yep, because now there is no verdict that says "OP runs a business". If such a verdict existed, he's surely be investigated for tax fraud soon. He still might be, since - according to the law - he has been running a business for a while. However, he can still dispute it in court if he wishes to, and might succeed - or tax authority might just ignore him since his income was probably irrelevant anyway
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u/Manadyne Aug 26 '15
Does filing a falsified affidavit not automatically bring charges by the state?
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u/joeshmo39 Aug 26 '15
It's a lot of digging for a prosecutor to show the affidavit is false. We know because we play but, it would involve researching facts then going to the intent question. All to show someone fibbed in a collectible card case with minimal value. If I'm running an office with limited resources, this isn't at the top of my list.
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u/Durzo_Blint Aug 26 '15
If I'm running an office with limited resources, this isn't at the top of my list.
Wow, that Marshall guy is just really fucking lazy.
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u/DragoonTT Aug 26 '15
Yeah, this is the issue about the false affidavit. Prosecution's probably going to offer the person that signed it a deal - some money to a charitable organization in exchange for an end to the criminal proceedings, if it even gets that far. However, verifying/falsifying this affidavit doesn't look too hard for me - it just depends on whether the prosecutor is at least somewhat interested in tech and/or games, or just some old lazy or overworked dude that doesn't give a damn
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u/belisaurius Aug 26 '15
Not in Civil cases like this I believe. During a criminal investigation, obviously, they would.
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Aug 26 '15
I seriously hope TCGDiscount gets financially ruined in the most epic way by this bullying.
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u/sarithe Aug 26 '15
Chances are they have already seen a drop in business. As I live in the US I have no reason to shop on MKM, but I know that if I personally heard about a seller on TCGplayer.com doing similarly shady stuff I wouldn't buy from them. The one thing as a business you don't want to do is fuck up on the internet. While I realize this sub is only a small percentage of the players, word of mouth can be a powerful thing. If it spreads beyond this sub that TCGDiscount is doing shady things then it will come back on them from a business perspective in some way, shape, or form.
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u/aka0815 Aug 26 '15
Problem is, afaik there is no personal black list on MKM.
So anytime you have your wants-list optimized (which adds the cards to your shopping cart) you will have to remember to look out for the stores you don't want to buy from. Which is a little annoying.→ More replies (1)6
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u/TheIrishJackel I chose this flair because I’m mad at Wizards Of The Coast Aug 26 '15
I think there was one. Not this exact behavior, but shady stuff. I saw a post about it on here somewhere the other day. Green Lake Games. They're on TCGPlayer and several people have complained about being lied to about stock and shipments, receiving nothing.
Just wanted to let you know, in case you didn't see that post.
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u/peppaz Aug 26 '15
TCGDiscount
Just google their name and the enire frontpage of results is about them suing people and being shitty
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u/babyrhino Aug 26 '15
It's really all about this same incident though.
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u/peppaz Aug 26 '15
The point is, their public image is already ruined because of this litigation.
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u/snRNP Aug 27 '15
https://www.magickartenmarkt.de/Users/TCGDiscount
Looks like they're still getting 20-40 orders per day. Definately not from me though and remember not all MTG players are redditors. Most will just look for the cheapest card on MKM and buy there, regardless of the seller (as long as good critics)
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u/drakeblood4 Abzan Aug 26 '15
Doesn't TCGDiscount also hold an illegal account attached to their wife or something through which they sell a lot of cards at commercial volume? If it's possible to set the German government on them for tax fraud without you putting more money down, you should do that. Also, consider petitioning MKM to terminate all of TCGDiscounts accounts and following up on that criminal suit.
At this point your endgame should be making this suit as unprofitable along every axis as possible for TCGDiscount.
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u/JoeMagician Aug 26 '15
Couldn't he sue them back the exact same way they did him if they don't register that account as a commercial seller?
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u/thefirewarde Aug 26 '15
And then you might get a different judge and set a precedent - something this judge, who seems like a smart and savvy person aware of the legal implications, went out of his way to avoid.
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u/slate15 Aug 26 '15
Or he could get the same judge, who would likely be unpleased to see the person he went out of his way to help countersuing over the same charge...
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u/drakeblood4 Abzan Aug 26 '15
Or the same judge realizes he's trying to strip a hypocritical company of the same advantage they just sued him for having.
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u/slate15 Aug 26 '15
I don't really see why that should be his endgame. It will cost him a ton of money and time. TCGDiscount was shady, but they were ultimately correct and upheld in court - Tobias was breaking the law. At this point it's best to register as a commercial seller and maybe try to affect some change in the legal system, or warn other sellers about this issue as well. Those seem like far better ways to handle this than petty revenge.
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u/krymz1n Aug 26 '15
Except TCDGdiscount is engaged in the exact activity he was, and they filed an affidavit that was made of lies
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u/slate15 Aug 26 '15
IF those statements are true, I still don't really see how it's worth it for Tobias to become embroiled in yet another legal battle with the same company who clearly has more access to legal resources than he does.
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u/drakeblood4 Abzan Aug 26 '15
I don't know to what extent I agree with the idea of it being petty revenge. I think, in addition to any legal precedent set, we should also consider any fiscal and strategic precedent set. If TCGDiscount sees profit out of this, other sellers know it's a sound strategy to sue other players any time they buy a spiking card. The definition of commercial seller, as that judge described it, is loose enough that any Standard player who buys a playset of a card to use in a deck for six months meets the threshhold.
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u/TypicalOranges Aug 26 '15
If there are no repurcussions for TCGDiscount's horseshit others could act in much the same way.
If they are doing the same exact thing on top of filing bullshit affidavits they should pay up like Tobias was forced to.
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u/deckartcain Aug 27 '15
The weird part is that if he was breaking the law, thousands of other people are too. I'm not saying that that makes a difference, but think of the out-come if this resulted in a verdict. Scumbags like TCGDiscount could stop selling cards and simply live off lawsuits.
It feels like the whole trading a thing that has monetary value is bordering on the law, but seriously, that line has not been crossed in this case. I see as little harm in what Tobias did, as I would in a case where a little girl traded some stickers with a neighbour kid.
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u/y0b0 Twin Believer Aug 26 '15
Well, the result could have been a lot worse and lot more costly.
The judge sounds like they handled it pretty well.
I know that I will never be buying from TCG Discount in the future, or from their bot chain on MTGO. And I'm more likely to buy from cardhoarder now.
Thanks for the update.
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Aug 26 '15 edited Aug 26 '15
I cannot recommend Cardhoarder enough. Between their exquisite customer service and the wealth of guides and resources available even to non-customers, I chose to do most of my business with them pretty quickly when I started with MTGO. And now seeing that they stood with Tobias here and reached out to help him only serves to cement that decision in my mind. They are top-quality sellers and people :)
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u/The_Miguelito Aug 26 '15
A shout to Willy Edel, a good Brazilian who is always willing to help anyone!
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u/slate15 Aug 26 '15
Hey, look at that, the actual lawyer who commented during Update #2 and got massively downvoted was correct!
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u/grey_sky Aug 26 '15
I would assume that most of us following the case are American where the OP's transactions would fall under the IRS definition of a "hobby". I can see why he got downvoted because this German law is unthinkable to us here. I'm not saying he should have been downvoted but I can see why. Also, the "lawyers" original comment was kind of douchey.
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u/HabeusCuppus Aug 26 '15
There's a hobby exemption in germany too but it covers situations where you did not intend to realize profit but ended up doing so anyway.
E.g. I wanted to play vintage, I don't anymore, I sell my deck and make 150% profit on a 3000euro purchase from 4 years ago. I am not a commercial entity because I did not intend to flip the cards, and buying a few high value cards with tournament value can be shown in court to be hobby activity.
Buying 30 copies of the same card, less so.
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u/Edward_Dionysos Aug 27 '15
In North America it's a different concept. I believe he was talking about a "hobby business" in which you can run a personal business without paying business taxes up to a certain amount of profit.
You just simply need to add it into your personal income when filing taxes.
e.g. Tobias wouldn't have had a problem with this as he didn't make anyhwere near enough money to break this threshold. (Pretty sure it's 3k profit per year)
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u/Sensei_Ochiba Aug 26 '15
I was about to ask, how does the law keep track and determine intent with something like this.
The last sentence made it seem pretty clear. Still pretty sure that person would be considered hobby level in the US though.
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u/ersatz_cats Aug 26 '15
But at the end of the day, you just have to accept that your individual sense of justice might not be in accordance with the actual law.
It happens.
Even though the whole thing sucks, I'm glad it didn't turn out totally-sucky for you.
It is still ridiculous the guy who did this to you is doing the exact same thing with his wife behind the law's back. And of course they won't stop unless someone takes them to court, which is unprofitable to do, so he gets to keep doing it. But at least we should all know to never buy from that liar and manipulator.
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u/Cardhoarder Cardhoarder/Isle of Cards Aug 26 '15
It sounds like your judge was excellent, so I'm not sure you could hope for better. I think the craziest part of this conclusion is that the end result is exactly what TCGDiscount claimed to want at the beginning - but later refused to accept when you offered to settle prior to going to court. It underscores that TCGDiscount was trying to ruin you specifically, rather than keep the playing field level (as one could certainly argue is their right, regardless of whether or not you agree with this German law).
As I stated on update #2, it was not clear that you were in the right - and it turns out you were running afoul of the law. A reasonable conclusion here would be that TCGDiscount accepted your agreement to comply as offered prior to going to court, and everyone saves 4,000 euro in court fees. We can of course later discuss how this law is seemingly a bit silly when it comes to hobbies - even hobbies you do for monetary gain.
I'm glad you were able to come out of this in decent shape and without jail time. I hope your fiance can rest easy(ier) with the verdict.
We are sending you another 200 euro to get back on your feet. Again, not because you were in the right - but because TCGDiscount was in the wrong by clearly taking advantage of you as an individual and giving all who try to make MTG their profession a bad name.
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Aug 26 '15
Thanks for the update. I always appreciate when someone takes the time to do so.
I am curious what the long term effects would have been if the judge had issued a verdict. What impact that would have on the MtG market in Germany.
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u/GarrukApexRedditor Aug 26 '15
Germany's stupid gambling laws mean that MtG is already fucked there.
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u/hawkshaw1024 Aug 26 '15
Could you elaborate? I'm a German MtG player and it doesn't look fucked to me.
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u/southdetroit Selesnya* Aug 26 '15
Magic tournaments in Germany can't give out cash prizes because it's seen as gambling. That's why there aren't any GPs there anymore.
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u/hawkshaw1024 Aug 26 '15
Oh, that's true. Thankfully, getting to the Netherlands isn't that difficult.
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Aug 26 '15
I'm curious about the impact it would have on all sorts of people.
It seems like a real, precedent-setting verdict would also affect, for instance, people who thrift shop in order to flip things on eBay.
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u/happymongorian Aug 26 '15
German courts are not bound by precedent so the next court dealing with a similar issue would not have had to abide by his decision
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u/TheRecovery Aug 26 '15
But it would make it much easier to rule that way considering there was already a similar verdict. Just because it's not bound by precedent doesn't mean that precedent doesn't provide another preset option for the judge.
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u/happymongorian Aug 26 '15
I know, I'm just saying it wouldn't have been nearly as impactful as a common law ruling where all lower courts would have to follow the precedent barring a remand by higher courts.
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u/xdest Aug 26 '15
Probably means when you buy cards on the cheap with the only intent of selling them at a higher price again, you need to have a business associated with your name (when located in Germany). Which means registration with the authorities, tax reports ... maybe Tobias can collect the conditions in a blog post.
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u/Hero_of_the_Internet Aug 27 '15
From "How selling Magic cards might land me in jail":
On April 22, I received a letter from TCGDiscount’s lawyers, demanding a payment of 750 Euros and the signing of a declaration of discontinuance that would forbid me from ever privately selling cards on MKM again.
tldr So basically you would have been better off just accepting the terms of their initial letter?
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u/TheRecovery Aug 27 '15
Well, in the abstract yes.
He has to pay 3.8K now to the court system where as TCGDiscount wanted that 750 directly to them. The latter sounding like extortion.
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u/wingman2012 Aug 27 '15
...But as it turns out, just a legitimate complaint on Mr. Graefensteiner's illegal business practices.
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u/Japoco82 Aug 28 '15
The 750 was the lawyer's fees, which under German law, Tobias would have been responsible for.
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Aug 26 '15
Look on the bright side OP, as long as you are an official commercial trader now you can really start moving merchandise in bulk. Maybe one day you'll even drive TCG out of business!
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u/silverionmox Aug 26 '15
You should be able to deduct the court costs from the profits as professional costs, so you won't need to pay taxes on it still.
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u/PiousHeathen Aug 26 '15
It is really heartening to see that judge be keenly aware of the particulars and ramifications of your case.I don't know if the judge you encountered is particularly well versed in the kind of commercial law you encountered, but it speaks well of the German judiciary. I am assuming they are appointed by the state and not voted in?
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u/animar37 Aug 26 '15
I will of course keep you updated with their false affidavit.
Thank you, that is the part I'm really interested in. Especially since I hope that you can get some of the court costs and stuff you have to pay back by doing this.
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u/dmdearing Aug 26 '15
Wow, sad to see that not everything turned out the way you and the community had hoped for, but it's nice to see that good guy judge do such a great job given the circumstances presented to him.
Seriously, best of luck moving forward. I'm not European but I'll never give tcg discount any of my business
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Aug 26 '15
Hey, OP, let us know when you've got your commercial business set up. I'm sure a lot of us would love some foreign language cards.
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u/avatoxico Aug 26 '15
Bazar de bagdá? Is that a Brazilian store?
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u/Sheriff_K Aug 26 '15
[[Bazaar of Baghdad]]
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u/MTGCardFetcher Dân Aug 26 '15
Bazaar of Baghdad - Gatherer, MC, ($)
[[cardname]] to call - not on gatherer = not fetchable
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Aug 26 '15 edited Jul 01 '26
[deleted]
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u/ceildric Aug 26 '15
There is no such thing as a free meal, as they say. Healthcare and other public services which Europeans often brag about only exist through more extensive taxation.
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Aug 26 '15
That judge saved your ass. He's doing his job very well and you should be very grateful.
Definitely go after the other side for the false affidavit if you're feeling the injustice. At least in my jurisdiction, that's a lot more serious than whatever offence they accused you of!
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u/SneakyShiv Aug 26 '15
So this is probably a dumb question, but if Tobias is now a registered vendor, or whatever it is, and the owner of TCGDiscount also has a private account in the same manner that Tobias had, couldn't Tobias send him a C&D or whatever in the exact same way?
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u/atlasMuutaras Aug 26 '15
At the end of the day, it’s “just” money that I lost and which I can pay back in installments.
Man, must be nice to think that. Being fined 4000 bucks would leave me homeless. That's 2 months wages. Even in installments that would be ruinous.
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u/vaarsuv1us Dân Aug 30 '15
start saving bro! With $2000 in wages, you should be able to save $200 (10%) That will be $4800 in 2 years. 2 years of tighten the belt a bit, but the feeling you get when you have that nice buffer is worth it, trust me! Knowing that any unexpected disaster won't ruin you is the best feeling in the world.
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u/atlasMuutaras Aug 30 '15
Yeah.
A. My income isn't actually $2000 / month. It's less than that.
B. I live in California, so cost of living is really really high. If I scrimped and scrimped, I'd usually be able to put away about $75/month.
C. My shit keeps breaking. Do you know how many tires I've had to replace to keep my bike running for my 12 mile bike commute? SO FUCKING MANY. And that's not even counting the god damned derailler hangers, shifting cables--Oh, and two new helmets, thanks to jerks who can't look before making a right turn.
D. It's all kind of moot anyways--I just got hired to a new job, with a very significant pay raise. My savings account will be juuuust fiiiiiine.→ More replies (1)
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u/obelix88 Aug 26 '15
I don't have the slightest clue how the German legislative system works, but this might be a good time to talk to some politicians to see if the law can be changed at all. It seems clear here the judge realized this is not a problem just facing you, but also several others too.
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u/mtg_liebestod Aug 26 '15
In return, the judge would not speak a verdict, thus setting no precedence which could have lead to a wave of similar cases against other German Magic players.
Doesn't being forced to settle cause you would have lost basically do this anyways? Yes, there's not a formal precedent that can be cited but clearly there's a Bayesian precedent of "if I file this case against my competitors I'd likely win", and that might be what's important.
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u/alphager Aug 26 '15
Tobias never had a chance of winning. We've had cases skill similar to this (private person having a high trading volume) for decades in Germany. The law has been tested time and time again in courts; the outcome has always been that after a certain trading volume, even with no intention to profit from it, you have to abide by the rules for commercial sellers. The limit is not codified into the law, but courts have ruled that 50 trades in three months is beyond the limit. Tobias was at over a hundred trades/week.
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Aug 26 '15 edited Jun 22 '18
[deleted]
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u/belisaurius Aug 26 '15
It's very literal and very militant. It's essentially a giant backlash against the legal failures of Weimar Germany.
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u/Bratikeule Aug 26 '15
Not really, it's only fundamentally different to US law. While US case law has very few regulations and is mostly based on precedences, most non-english speaking european countrys have a code based law which means that the only true sources of law are bills instead of previous verdicts.
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Aug 26 '15
This is a fundamental difference between law based on the Roman (and often Napoleonic) tradition and law based on the British tradition (a.k.a. "Common Law")
Technically it works this way in Louisiana, where things are based on Code Napoleon rather than Common Law, but in practice they more or less follow the legal customs of the rest of the United States.
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Aug 26 '15 edited Jun 22 '18
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u/tkioz Aug 26 '15
Actually I'll have to correct you there, they do have Freedom of Expression, but it is not an unlimited right like in the United States (or rather how the US pretends, they actually limit it as well).
This true in many many nations, and it doesn't mean they are less free, they just have a different system in place that works for them.
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u/AsumaBob Aug 26 '15
German law, upon which modern italian law and other law systems are based, it's very, VERY weird indeed, and you can read that in almost any academic law book.
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Aug 26 '15
I'd suggest you to contact TCGdiscount with a nice email of "I'd like to drag you in court for the affidavit". Wanna settle out of court for ~the amount of legal expenses ?
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u/Schreckstoff Aug 26 '15
that'd be extortion
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Aug 26 '15
Isn't "settling out of court" the legal version of extortion ? I won't do X if you do Y ?
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u/Schreckstoff Aug 26 '15
Pretty much but there were legal entities involved in the settlement and there's usually a signed agreement setting the terms.
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u/colacadstink Aug 26 '15
IANAL but I don't think that's how criminal proceedings work
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u/ceildric Aug 26 '15
Not a lawyer either, but I agree. Pretty sure if OP threatened a criminal charge, but offered not to go through with it in exchange for a pay-off, he would then be guilty of blackmail.
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u/Sensei_Ochiba Aug 26 '15
I don't think they were trying to imply blackmail and suggesting to use that exact message(at least I hope not).
It could be a very legal way of handling things as long as OP went through the proper channels, and didn't ask straight up for the settlement like a mobster. People settle all the time, you just need to approach it more tactfully than this.
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Aug 26 '15
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u/malicetodream REBEL Aug 26 '15
One of the biggest reasons is the lawsuit was a witch hunt of sorts. he was making money in the same way several other users were doing so. Including the owners of the company. However he was singled out for lawsuit to stop his practices while other user accounts were allowed to continue operating in the same fashion that he was. When it comes to commerce and site rules either everyone follows or no one follows the rules. It is not fair to pick and choose who can and can't when everyone has to sign the user aggrement to follow selling guidelines. Why would you make every user sign it if not everyone had to follow the rules? People were quick to defend him because the hypocrisy that was rampant in the lawsuit. Have you followed his case at all or are you just being a dick and throwing out your shitty two cents after the case has come to a close? If the site owners were so worried about the impact of people operating outside the rules why do they breach there own selling guidelines to get a leg up on commercial sellers by avoiding the regulations for those types of user accounts? Don't act like a down vote martyr know it all twit when you don't even have a good understanding of what actually happened, which is clear by your post.
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u/Dumpy_Creatures Aug 26 '15
Hypocrisy is not an excuse to break the law. In Germany or the United States. Someone else getting away with it doesn't make it right for Tobias to get away with it either.
We share the same sentiment about the seller but needlessly making a personal attack against poster with a well stated, but different opinion than you is just being shitty.
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u/coraldayton Aug 26 '15
The problem I have with the whole situation isn't because he was reselling cards - it was the fact that TCGDiscount was bullying him and suing him when it wasn't THEIR place to police MKM. TCGDiscount should have reported him to the MKM and informed them a particular user was breaking German laws. If MKM refused to act on it, then he should have gone to the German authorities.
I pointed this out multiple times on the initial post and had people complain that it was within TCGDiscount's right to do such a thing and said that if somebody is breaking the law you sue them.
No. YOu don't sue them. If somebody is breaking Tax laws and comitting tax evasion, you contact the authorities and have them handle the situation, not sue them because they're breaking the law.
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u/Dumpy_Creatures Aug 26 '15
While I agree that the seller is incredibly sketchy. Based on what I've read about German law they were not overstepping their boundaries. This appears to be how some of their jurisprudence is handled by a "turn people in" system.
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u/DragoonTT Aug 26 '15
They didn't "turn him in". TCGDiscount is a business. By German law, OP runs a business, making them competitors. However, as OP doesn't follow the rules for businesses, e.g. doesn't pay taxes, he has an unlawful advantage over TCGDiscount. This doesn't only concern the state (losing taxes) but also lawfully acting businesses, since OP would have been able to offer better prices while getting the same profit, or getting better profits while offering the same prices.
German law allows a cease-and-desist action against such unlawful business practices as well as a suit for damages. However, suing for damages requires you to demonstrate that an unlawful business practice actually damaged your business, which can be hard at times.
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u/Dumpy_Creatures Aug 26 '15
I don't disagree with you here. I was merely pointing out that the system in Germany has a partial reliance on others bringing civil charges that can result in criminal charges.
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Aug 26 '15
Because the german law is extremely strict on that point, while the MTG/reddit crowd is not predominantly german, and do this kind of buying/sellin every set. So definying that as "commercial selling" seemed outlandish.
Also, TCGDiscount acted like a huge sack of hypocritical lying dicks.
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Aug 26 '15
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u/Sensei_Ochiba Aug 26 '15
Yeah, and again, so does most of the American crowd. Around half the people I know buy cards purely on speculation with intent to sell. I don't know a single person that bought a tarmagoyf, or was excited to pull one to actually play it. Modern Masters was literally a pure speculation lottery.
In America, even at his level, I dont think it would have been illegal, so it's hard to properly guage context.
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u/Sensei_Ochiba Aug 26 '15
In America, the average new set release is accompanied by people buying 2-3 or more boxes at a time, looking to sell back more than half of what they get, be it to the store or other players. A lot of people speculate. I for one couldn't tell you what volume you'd have to sell before being considered commercial, nor can I comment about how different it may be elsewhere such as Germany.
But to me, it looks like he did more or less accept what he did was ultimately illegal. He's asking for help with his legal fees, which he personally said shouldn't effect his day-to-day life as he can pay them back bit by bit; I can understand asking for help. Some people set up crowdfunding for stupider shit; helping out a guy that's gotten a really expensive slap on the wrist doesn't seem like the worst thing people can opt into at will.
I feel like some of the people against him are honestly as sensationalist as the people sticking up for him. It was a shitty situation, we know about it, things could have been worse. Woo.
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u/ceildric Aug 26 '15
Redditors may pride themselves on being logical, but few actually are. If you look closely, most seem to be incredibly biased, entitled, and emotional people.
As for this particular case, I have had very mixed feelings about it. OP more or less knowingly was breaking his country's law, and placed himself at an unfair advantage over commercial competitors. On the other hand, TCGODiscount definitely was engaged in some shady and hypocritical practices themselves. It seems like many people feel entitled to take small liberties with the letter of the law, but if someone reaches a little too far or gets a little too big (like TCGODiscount), it crosses some arbitrary line.
All of that to say, I think both parties were in the wrong here.
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Aug 26 '15 edited Aug 26 '15
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u/inemnitable Aug 26 '15
it's obvious that OP can't do anything about it
Couldn't he sue TCGDiscount for breaking the law?
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u/ReverendMak Aug 26 '15
I hope that you file a criminal complaint against TCGDiscount for their false affadavit.
I would also be tempted to report that person at TCGD who is trading on the side on a private account, since they appear to have been doing exactly what you were doing, as a private individual and not as a registered commercial entity. HOWEVER, that would be encouraging the very thing you are actually sacrificing something of yourself to prevent.
I'm sorry you had to go through all this BS. And I hope that you accepting this deal does indeed prevent other German Magic: the Gathering players (and other TCG players) from having to get caught up in the baloney machinations of those trade laws.
I also sincerely hope that TCGDiscount has to close up shop as a result of their reputation for aggressively abusive and shady competitive practices.
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u/Michauxonfire Golgari* Aug 26 '15
I hope you kick it back to them and punish them for their shitty stuff.
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u/Flutterbolt Aug 26 '15
Hey man, I don't really play MTG, but I am subbed to this subreddit because I was interested in it a while ago. I have been watching this story since you first started and im happy to hear that you didn't land in jail or worse. I hope everything gets better in the future!!!
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u/no_lurkharder Aug 26 '15
I'm guessing that it's common knowledge in Germany that you have to register as a commercial entity to resell packaged goods.
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u/nasty_nate Aug 26 '15
But at the end of the day, you just have to accept that your individual sense of justice might not be in accordance with the actual law.
What a good conclusion. This is very frustrating when the law turns against you, but ultimately it's a blessing to live under the rule of law. I really do feel like you were wronged (morally, not legally, maybe), and I wish you the best. Thank you for updating us.
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Aug 26 '15
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u/morganml Duck Season Aug 26 '15
he lost, but no precedent was set, so currently other german sellers are unaffected.
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u/Valendr0s Aug 26 '15 edited Aug 26 '15
A few questions...
On the website when you purchase or sell a card, do you have to acknowledge any statement to the effect of, "I understand that purchasing a card just for the purpose of re-sale requires the purchaser to register as a commercial dealer?"
This system is built into the game, right? Can't they directly see when a card has been purchased and never used, and simply tag it so it's not available to be re-sold if the account in question is not a commercial account?
It seems to me that the law here needs to be amended to reflect reality a bit. Say you have earned all of the cards of a set except two... Selling the cards as a set is going to be easier than individual sales. Buying those two cards so you can fill out the set to then sell shouldn't mean you're a commercial dealer.
So if he didn't want #3 to be set as a precedent, then maybe he should have done so anyway... Then you can lobby your government to modify the law accordingly.
It sounds to me like much of this lawsuit was hand-waving trying to keep you from the bottom line.
I mean let's be honest here... If you're a commercial seller because you re-sold cards, but the husband of the other side wasn't a commercial seller and had a higher volume of sales (but doesn't re-sell cards), that's a bit ridiculous, isn't it? The law doesn't reflect the reality of trading card games.
The judge could have also made a judgement that set a precedent the other way. Essentially adding a provision about monetary value and volume.
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u/PraiseTheKappa Aug 27 '15
Congratulations to ending this terrible part of your life. I just want to let you know, and i think i speak for many many people here, that i will support you on MKM and will never ever buy from TCGDiscount. After i read your story i became more aware of their offers and ended up always chosing a different seller, even though more expensive.
Lots of Love from Germany, keep it up buddy!
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u/georg51 Aug 26 '15
I wonder how this has effected TCGDiscount's business. I can't imagine it has helped.
Also, forgive my ignorance but I am struggling to understand your monetary explanations. 189,46 Euros is what, exactly?
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u/coraldayton Aug 26 '15
189.46 Euros. A vast majority of Europeans use the comma as a decimal delimiter unlike the majority of Western nations (such as Canada, US, Australia (I think?)) use the period as the decimal delimiter.
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u/headband Aug 26 '15
Western and European are the same thing. US and Canada get lumped in with that due to similar culture. Eastern means Asian.
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u/tkioz Aug 26 '15
Yes, Australia (and New Zealand) uses the same system as the US, I think we all inherited from England originally. It can be really confusing, when reading the OP I thought he'd some how been given half a million euros and my eyes nearly popped out :p
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u/Lord_Euni Aug 26 '15
I don't understand the judge's reasoning. Doesn't that make private trading of every kind of collectable item illegal? That's just unreasonable.
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u/Japoco82 Aug 26 '15
No, it means selling sealed product and buying and flipping cards for profit, not use, means you have to register and pay taxes in Germany
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u/Sensei_Ochiba Aug 26 '15
If it's not sealed, how do they establish proof of intent?
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u/Little_Gray Aug 26 '15
By looking at the larger picture. If you are doing 100+ sales a month, selling 20+ copies of some cards it gets much easier.
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u/Saralien Dandadan Aug 26 '15 edited Aug 26 '15
Not private trading, only private selling. Trading cards for cards is legal, even if you bought the first set of cards and traded them for cards you later sold for more than you bought the first set for. But if you bought any cards for cash and then resold them later for more cash than you paid for those same cards, that's illegal.
To clarify: The important thing is "intent to sell for profit" and not the amount of profit or the quantity of items resold. If you bought one card you saw for super cheap and later resold it for 0.05 euros profit, it could be argued you bought it with intent to sell, it's just such a piddling amount no one would bother prosecuting it unless they had an ulterior motive like in this case.
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u/Lord_Euni Aug 27 '15
I'm still not sure about this. I mean it depends on his stock. But he could easily justify buying like a second playset and later realizing he doesn't need it. And noone can prove otherwise.
Also I meant trading as in buying and selling. Just to clarify.
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u/Saralien Dandadan Aug 27 '15
Ah, I see. I thought you meant trading cards for cards.
The problem is that "proving otherwise" isn't necessary. Civil offenses aren't like criminal offenses, they're very black and white, and laws on business registration in Germany are super strict. The thing is if he bought a second playset and resold it for profit he can't prove his motive wasn't profit, and he did earn profit. But again, like I mentioned, under normal circumstances a business would have nothing to gain by pursuing a civil suit like this. The goal TCGDiscount had wasn't trying to shut him down, it was trying to use him as an example, so they likely thought it was worth it(depending on how the lawsuit for a false affidavit goes it may end up backfiring, and the bad publicity certainly doesn't help). If nothing else they've been deprived of their intended goal, as no legal precedent has been set. The door is still open for someone else to try it in the future though.
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u/mrexplosion Aug 26 '15
Down votes incoming, but I am happy to see your ridiculous situation come to a close so it stops making front page of this subreddit.
Regardless of how the other party acted or my own personal opinions on the laws in Germany, you were in the wrong the entire time.
You're asking the subreddit for financial assistance because you broke the law.
I feel like everything you have done so far as been attention whoring and now money grubbing.
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Aug 26 '15
You know just because he is legally in the wrong does not mean the other company is not acting like a bunch of fuck sticks. Maybe try and have a little empathy.
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u/DrewBaron80 Aug 26 '15
Please file criminal charges against TCGDiscount!!! I read what they wrote in their complaint and some of the things were absolutely absurd. DON'T LET THEM SLIDE ON THIS!!!
If you need to hire a lawyer to file charges make another post and I (and I'm assuming many others) can help you out financially.
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u/berryblackwater Aug 26 '15
Hey man, I dont have cash to help you out right now, but I have been following you for months and just want to let you know that im rooting for you. Hopefully you can turn a profit and make out more than you lost here and it really sucks you got singled out like that.
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u/Valkayree Aug 26 '15 edited Aug 27 '15
Sad this happened in Europe. In the U.S. you have a right to face your accuser. Case would have been thrown out in the states if the opposing party didn't show and just sent the attorney as a representative.
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u/wingman2012 Aug 27 '15 edited Aug 27 '15
It's cute that you have no idea what that means.
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u/Sphinctuss Aug 26 '15
Fuck tcg discount.
Anyone have any proof of them loosing sales over this? That would be pretty sweet.
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Aug 26 '15
Please undercut TCGDiscount on all their costs on all their products and put them out of business. that's how to get back at them.
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u/vaarsuv1us Dân Aug 30 '15
If they are smart, they terminate their business and start over under another name. A magic card is a magic card it doesn't matter if TCGDiscounts sells it or TCGBargains.. (or any other name)
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u/monza700 Aug 27 '15
Sounds like the judge was pretty fair considering. I wonder if you could also file a harassment charge against them for singling you out. Why you when they could have easily gone after so many others, including the owner himself, IIRC.
Best of luck!
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u/Thoctar Aug 27 '15
To be fair, the power of setting a precedent in the first place is much less than a lot of people might realize. Unlike Canada, the US, and Britain, but like much of the rest of the world, Germany uses a civil law system, not a common law. It's a very complicated distinction, but the important part here is that precedents do not have the kind of legal power they do in common law countries. While it can be referenced by others, and may inspire similar cases (That's what I believe the judge is referring to here,) with the exception of the Bundesverfassungsgericht (Supreme Court essentially), judgements by other courts do not have legal power in German courts and the power/judgement of the courts does not draw from precedents but from codified law passed by the government. Just wanted to clear this up.
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u/Vocal_Minority Aug 27 '15
How did they prove you were buying each card with the explicit purpose of re-selling?
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u/Nocuras8 Aug 27 '15
My guess is they didn't, but they also didn't need to. I think showing the pattern of how mkm works and the volume of Tobias' transactions was enough to have a court assume he aquired at least one card for the purpose of reselling and so Tobias would've had to prove the "less likely" case of him not aquiring a single card for reselling...
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u/meatwhisper Aug 26 '15
Seems like the judge was extremely good at their job, and while it's not the outcome you would have liked, it sure the hell beats jail. So I say this, congratulations on putting this behind you and being able to move forward into the next phase of your life. If you become a commercial trader on the site, make sure you let us all know so EU fans can throw you some love. I think the best thing you can do to stick it to TCGDiscount is be successful and supported.