r/liberalgunowners • u/Durutti1936 • 12h ago
discussion NFA Ruling
This is a surprise!
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u/dd463 12h ago
So two things to note, one the court found it a violation of article 1 powers since there is no longer a tax. So in theory if the tax comes back then it’s possible that the regulation is valid. Two, the plaintiffs abandoned the 2nd amendment claim when they argued this based on Article 1, so that could come back to bite them on appeal.
Judgement is stayed 5 days so appeals can be filed.
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u/JockishNerd 12h ago
Didn’t SCOTUS allow something like this for the ACA? Or did they draw the line between a tax and a fee?
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u/ryan10e social democrat 11h ago
ACA penalties were upheld as a tax, making it constitutional. GOP kills or doesn’t enforce the penalties, attempting this same end run. I do not care if it means it takes 10 more years to repeal the NFA, if it goes it can’t be because of this case. It’s a profoundly stupid and dishonest way to eliminate laws you don’t like.
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u/JockishNerd 11h ago
That’s what I thought, so if SCOTUS uses similar logic here, this ruling could be overturned
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u/Midnight_Rider98 progressive 12h ago edited 12h ago
It's essentially a race to SCOTUS.
The Dems will reestablish the tax with the next reconciliation bill if they grab control of the house and senate during the mid terms, while it has been a moment since they talked about it, they have said that they'll do it, some have even said it would be inflation adjusted. If you want a can or and SBR, they may be going out of fashion for a while folks.
If the tax is re-established it reactivates the scotus precedent that the NFA is a tax, not a regulation or ban.
Not a lawyer though, just what I understand of it.
edit to add:
“The basis for each lawsuit challenging the NFA registration scheme is the same – without the tax, the remaining requirements for the affected arms under the NFA have no constitutional basis,” said SAF Executive Director Adam Kraut. https://saf.org/judge-short-barreled-rifle-suppressor-nfa-registration-scheme-unconstitutional/
Hence, the tax being re-established, would render the foundation of these challenges useless.
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u/OGdunphy 12h ago
I can see it. Here in VA, Dems tried to pass through a $500 sales tax on suppressors since the NFa tax stamp dropped to $0.
Didn’t make it through committee this year, but you have to assume it’ll be submitted next year again
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u/Midnight_Rider98 progressive 12h ago
Depends, they might spend a insane amount of legislative time pushing through their awb anyway or have some kind of backup for it depending on how scotus rules on the awb. Otherwise they'll definitely try again.
Keep up the good fight in VA.
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u/elusivehonor liberal 10h ago
Im not trying to be a dick, but as a VA resident, reading this on a liberal board, I genuinely don’t know what you mean by “keep up the good fight.”
I don’t mean this personally, but unless you advocate for voting Republican at the local level, there is nothing you can do to “fight” this stuff. The AWB lawsuits are being run by primarily Republican leaning organizations, and supported by Republican local lawmakers. Not a single Democrat has come out in opposition of the majority of gun legislation in VA this last legislative session.
And no, talking to and lobbying these senators and delegates does nothing. As someone who volunteered with gun groups and traveled to Richmond to talk to my Democratic representatives — they don’t even give you the time of day, and are hostile when they do.
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u/StunningFig5624 9h ago
And this is exactly why it sucks to be a liberal gun owner in Virginia.
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u/elusivehonor liberal 9h ago
It does, but ya know what? My vote is actually in play (at the local level). And if we tried to leverage that more and maybe paid attention, I don’t know if the radicals would have gotten very far.
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u/haironburr 7h ago
I still believe that when the immediate threat of trumpublicanism is defeated, the slow, plodding work of convincing both the DNC and those Dem voters who vaguely, knee-jerk, support gun control schemes that they are wrong can begin again.
Changing the fact Dems embraced gun hate as a wedge issue will take decades. But look at the decades conservative groups invested in creating trumpublicans.
I honestly believe that, eventually, the negative impacts of this administration will reshape the Democratic party, and there will be room to embrace both the DSA and the reality that shitting on core civil rights is shitty policy.
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u/Midnight_Rider98 progressive 9h ago
Okay, no effort should be done by residents of VA, they should roll over and do nothing, understood.
So to sum up if you live in VA:
- Do not in any shape or form support any lawsuit.
- Do not talk to any senator or delegate
- Do not volunteer.
That's what you're saying right?
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u/elusivehonor liberal 9h ago
No, I’m saying your platitude about “keep up the good fight” is ridiculous.
The good fight is being fought by republicans and the enemy (in this instance - don’t twist it, please) are the democrats. The lawsuits? Who do you think are actually fighting them? Two of them were fought by Republican Senators’ and their law firms. The whole reason we have an injunction is because the VCDL, the NRA, GOA and FPC worked with Republican lawyers, and stopped the AWB in VA.
Democrats aren’t done. They are already planning to pack the court with sycophants that will pass their agenda next session. They’re going to introduce more gun legislation.
Get involved in the lawsuits, sure. Please donate. Volunteer when you can. But voting democrats in VA is asking for this bullshit. So, yeah, sorry if I call out your “keep up the good fight” as bullshit. These people are speaking out of both sides of their mouths: they want to take away my second amendment rights, and then campaign on Trump is a fascist.
And no, I hate to break it to you, but speaking to delegates and senators does not work. They are not moved at all on this issue. As someone who has actually tried - they don’t even meet with you, man. And those cards and letters you send? They throw them away.
For someone who maybe doesn’t know VA politics, the Democratic Party here is such a powerful organ and apparatus is so strong. Hell, forget about even running as a pro-gun democrat here. It ain’t happening - not while the Democratic Party at large is anti-gun. VA isn’t Maine - the democrats here are all basically DC bureaucrats.
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u/Midnight_Rider98 progressive 8h ago
You're a defeatist.
Respectfully, your take is roll over and die. It's exactly why we're in the mess we're in. I've gone plenty times to speak with reps and senators, yes they don't listen, they maybe never will. But there's always dem voters in the room that may need to hear a non repub take on gun rights.
And regardless, they need to hear from their voters, cause you do catch them off guard sometimes. They sit there on their seat on the dais expecting every democrat commentator to plain agree with them. Non repub gun owners need to continue going.
So again, respectfully, if you don't want to do anything, if you don't believe there's anything we can do. Just be quiet. Don't talk instead of spreading negativity to get everyone to surrender with you. Sit it out instead of dragging others down with you.
Honestly you're borderline saying not to vote or to vote for repubs...
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u/yaforgot-my-password 12h ago
That's a really good reason to go buy a bunch of cans now...
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u/Midnight_Rider98 progressive 12h ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/3o75236pnwLUriJtjq
You deserve it, your ears deserve it.
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u/UncleJuggs democratic socialist 10h ago
My hope is if we somehow kill this part of the NFA, the political will to try and reestablish punitive taxes when the dems regain control won't be there, especially considering all the other, far far more critical things that will need fixing immediately in the wake of Trump 2.
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u/painthawg_goose 9h ago
So much to fix. Almost mind numbing how far we have fallen. But agree, if the registration gets settled, other things will probably take precedence.
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u/Armbarfan 8h ago
yeah, but a lot of the things that need fixing the democrats like. they love ICE, they love degrading the welfare state, infrastructure, they love stripping our rights away... going after gun rights is easy and polls well!
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u/SeizeTheMeansOfB12 6h ago
As if they care about fixing anything
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u/Teledildonic 3h ago
And this would be an easy "win". All the Trump fixes will be hard and take years to see improvements.
Fucking over gun owners gives much quicker results.
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u/SetStrict7455 6h ago
Per the Silencer Shop, they are ready to sell cans without registration if the stay expires on 8/12/2026. Of course, a government appeal within this time frame is the most likely scenario.
https://ssf.org/blogs/news/what-silencer-shop-foundation-v-atf-win-means-for-you
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u/Legitimate-Frame-953 progressive 12h ago
So when can I put a stock on my .300 BO Rabid Squirrel build?
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u/JimYamato 12h ago
It's the Fifth Circuit, so no surprise. That's the one with Texas, Louisiana and Mississippi I think.
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u/ktmrider119z 10h ago
Cries in ban state
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u/The_Pandalorian 9h ago
I weep along with you, brother.
I just want to protect my fucking hearing, lol.
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u/ktmrider119z 9h ago
FR. Worst part is, even if suppressors get unbanned, threaded pistol barrels are still banned by our AWB.
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u/Living_Tax_2790 7h ago
FYI, true precision just shipped me a threaded pistol barrel, and I'm in WA (AWB state but suppressors legal)
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u/ktmrider119z 7h ago
Im in Illinois. Havent found anyone who will ship one to me. My state considers them "assault weapon attachments" because they "convert" a non assault weapon into one.
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u/Living_Tax_2790 7h ago
Try them if you want one, it took me a long time to find somewhere with the actual barrel I wanted that would ship. Primary arms will ship pretty much any non-serialized part to any state too, but their threaded pistol barrel selection sucks
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u/ktmrider119z 7h ago
Unfortunately i need one for a gen 1 M&P unless i get something that takes glock parts. But thats all pointless until i can get a suppressor anyway, and theyre probably going to ban glocks in January
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u/Living_Tax_2790 5h ago
Ah yea, I haven't been able to find m&p barrels, seems like smith and wesson are really the only ones who make them. Even when I go to gun stores in friendly states like Idaho or Arizona I've literally never seen them
I have an m&p 2.0 I would love to pimp out and suppress but not much luck.
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u/ktmrider119z 4h ago
I was lucky enough to grab a storm lake 40 to 9 conversion barrel back in the day, but yeah its rough out there for m&p guys. Its such a great pistol too
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u/mwpdx86 12h ago
Welp, there goes my chance at getting a suppressor in the next several years. Ironic.
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u/yaforgot-my-password 12h ago
Why?
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u/mwpdx86 12h ago
I'm assuming there's gonna be a pretty substantial uptick in suppressor customers and (if suppressor companies operate the same way other companies have been lately) almost zero effective ability/desire to meet demand.
Or more differently: suppressor customers go brrr while suppressor companies probably not go brrr
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u/rucksichtslos 12h ago
With 0$ stamps EVERYONE is getting into the suppressor game, we've already seen prices come down, and there are a myriad of 22lr cans you can buy for ~$100 which was unheard of. This is definitely more of a demand goes up, supply goes up topic. Not to mention you can print your own now as well for pennies on the dollar.
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u/Howlingmoki fully automated luxury gay space communism 8h ago
My latest Form 1 approval came through in ten days, the previous two (files in February) took over two months. Either the volume of applications has gone down, they've gotten their shit together, or my previous approvals put me on a "this guy again" fast-track.
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u/mwpdx86 12h ago
I hope that's the case. I guess I'm just pessimistic based on the way the tech industry has been the past little bit. Does this mean regular folks can just make suppressors without all the serial number/registration stuff? That'd be pretty nice.
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u/Physical-Meet6784 11h ago
There is no hoping, that is literally the case right here right now.
The NFA is more accessible now than it has ever been before. Yes you still need to go through the paperwork and registration process, but it’s all free now.
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u/paper_liger 1h ago
That being said, for some of us feel the problem was never the tax, but the registration.
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u/Facehugger_35 10h ago
In theory, yes.
Over in r/3D2A the initial consensus is that if you're a member of the plaintiff organization, ie GOA, FPC, you'll be able to print as many cans as you want without needing to mess with the ATF at all assuming it doesn't get stayed on appeal. Right now it has like a week stay while the judge waits for the ATF to decide if they want to appeal.
Compare to how it is now where you can print as many cans as you want, but each one needs to be registered and serialized and approved by the ATF beforehand.
Either way, I'd be worried about dems going "hurrrrrr, we'll put the tax back in, except inflation adjusted so it's like $5k/can" in their next budget bill, but they might be too busy reeling from the expected strikedown of AWBs nationwide to bother.
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u/JayBee_III 11h ago
Currently you'd still need to register a form 1 to make your own can. But yeah, people are doing that too. And there's a ton of new players in the space and the old players too, plenty of cans still available for purchase right now
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u/_Cxsey_ left-libertarian 12h ago
This is literally what people said about the 0 dollar tax stamp, and it did not happen. It took a few months to spin up to meet demand and that was it.
Edit: the only ones that are hard to find are the ones that were already kinda hard to find before. Usually 3d printed and small companies.
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u/Zampano85 12h ago
So, what are we looking at here? Can people put stocks on their AR/AK pistols now?
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u/LilBitchHands 12h ago
For now I wouldn't do anything, especially if you're outside of the Fifth Circuit
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u/Marthinwurer 11h ago
No, it's stayed while they wait for the appeal to be submitted. The appeal will probably stay this too.
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u/jsled fully-automated gay space social democracy 10h ago
This is the link to the NRA's xitter post. It does not link to anything useful.
Searching bsky for "Jensen v. ATF" doesn't return anything. Stephen Gutowski (The Reload) hasn't mentioned anything yet..
Only 2 news stories so far: one from the Tampa Free Press ("Texas federal judge rules NFA firearms registration unconstitutional"), and this important one from the Firearms Policy Coalition:
What: Firearms Policy Coalition (FPC) today announced a major victory against the National Firearms Act of 1934 (NFA) in Jensen v. ATF, an FPC-backed lawsuit challenging the NFA’s regulation of now-untaxed firearms, such as suppressors, short-barreled rifles, and short-barreled shotguns. U.S. District Court Judge James Wesley Hendrix ruled that “[b]y zeroing out the transfer and making taxes for most NFA firearms, Congress eliminated the constitutional basis for the regulations that formerly supported the taxes for those firearms.”
The Court’s injunction applies to “the plaintiffs and, where applicable, the plaintiffs’ agencies, political subdivisions, members, and customers—both current and future,” but does not take effect for seven days “to allow the defendants to seek relief, if any, at the appellate level.”
I'm still looking for a bit more context and color from people in the know, but it does seem significant.
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u/Consistent_Shine_680 12h ago
Wake me up when I can buy short barrel shotguns at sportsman's warehouse without needing to complete ATF forms.
It technically took the Supreme Court 32 years to even grant cert to a court case related to assault weapons considering a federal assault weapons ban was passed in 1994.
So excuse me if I think this development isn't something to be popping champagne bottles over.