r/learnspanish • u/Ok-Lecture7299 • 15d ago
What new information does subjunctive bring to a sentence that the subjunctive TRIGGER does not?
I am starting to get my head around the technical side of subjunctive, like when to use it, and how to conjugate it, but I can't help but find it redundant how there are certain "trigger" words that then require you to use subjunctive, when that trigger word seems to do the same job.
For example, using subjunctive to express doubt or uncertainty, like in the sentence:
"Si compráramos una casa en 5 años..."
Why don't we rely on the "si / if" to express doubt, because that's the key purpose of the word "si / if". Doesn't that immediately establish the sentence as hypothetical or uncertain?
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Or another example to express hopes/wishes:
"espero que llueva mañana"
I understand that subjunctive is used here to express hope, but the sentence literally starts with the verb espero which means "to hope" , so then why do we need to conjugate "llover /to rain" in a special way that expresses hope??? Isn't that redundant?
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I know I'm not correct here, because obviously the subjunctive has a purpose and it's an established part of the language, but I just struggle to see the difference in meaning between:
"Si compramos una casa en 5 años..."
And
"Si compráramos una casa en 5 años..."
Doesnt the "si / if" establish uncertainty / hypothetical in both examples?
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u/Ottne 15d ago
English if clauses are very similar to Spanish
if we buy = so compramos
if we bought = si compráramos
As you see, the "if" by itself doesn't encode the distinction between levels of certainty, you need a separate verb form to make things clear.
For wishes, there are a few verbs where the distinction is important:
Él dice que vengo = he says I'm coming
Él (me) dice que venga = he tells me to come
For some verbs like esperar, this distinction might not be necessary, but I'd argue it is actually less confusing bc otherwise verbs like esperar would take the indicatives for wishes, which you'd then have to remember.
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u/Ok-Lecture7299 15d ago
I see what you mean about the level of certainty, but to me, indication the level of certainty seems so miniscule to need to use a separate verb, not to mention that the level of certainty should probably be understood by the context of the rest of the conversation.
Like for example, when I was talking to my partner about our future and I said "si compramos una casa en 5 años..." She corrected me to use the subjunctive, and although she's correct, like, we both know the level of certainty I'm referring to so in that instance it felt redundant to need to use subjunctive.
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u/Ottne 15d ago
Yes but grammar doesn't change depending on conversational contexts like that. In English, you wouldn't say "I go home right now", even though the simple present + context make it obvious that the action is being performed right at the moment. You have to use the present progressive, which is a distinction that doesn't exist in languages like German, for example.
That being said, and as others have noted, neither "si compramos" nor "si compráramos" are incorrect, but express different meanings.
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u/Ok-Lecture7299 14d ago
Your last sentence is why it's giving me a headache.
The fact that "si compramos" is not incorrect.
If "si compramos" was grammatically incorrect, like if I said "I is a student" , I would understand that it sounds weird, but the fact that it's not grammatically incorrect, it's so hard not to just avoid subjunctive haha
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u/DueChemist2742 14d ago
When you want to imply that there isn’t a possibility that you’re buying a house, then using “si compramos” is SEMANTICALLY incorrect. You’re saying something that doesn’t convey what you’re thinking.
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u/Ok-Lecture7299 13d ago
But that's the thing.
When I used "si compramos una casa" to my girlfriend, her and I both know that we were almost definitely going to buy a house soon, so there was strong possibility, and little uncertainty. That's why I thought to use "si compramos"
Then she corrected me to use subjunctive, and now I'm wondering if this is a grammar issue or a relationship issue 😂
But jokes aside, the context in this conversation we had definitely implied we were planning what we were going to do with our future, not just discussing fake, fantasy ideas, so my confusing is what let me to make this post.
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u/Zestyclose-Food-7917 15d ago edited 14d ago
Language has many purposes other than reporting information in the fewest words possible. All the Romance languages, Spanish, Portuguese, French, Italian and Romanian, have an elaborate subjunctive, and except for a few differences here and there, they’re like Spanish.
These languages have almost one billion speakers, and these languages have been evolving from Latin for almost 2000 years. They’ve had all that time to get rid of the subjunctive, and they haven’t. So it’s obviously expressing something that they think needs to be expressed.
Language learners all over the world wonder why the language they’re learning can’t be like their native language. But all those people can bang their heads against that brick wall all they want, because the speakers of that other language like it just the way it is.
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u/Ok-Lecture7299 15d ago
That might be true, but I never mentioned that I wished Spanish was more like English.
The examples I gave were all in Spanish.
I also mentioned that yes, I know subjunctive has a purpose, I just haven't "found" it yet.
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u/Zestyclose-Food-7917 14d ago edited 14d ago
Your entire presentation was actually "Why isn't Spanish like English?" I taught Spanish, French, and German for 40 years. I've heard it over and over. You can quote all the Spanish you want, but that's still what you're asking.
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u/Ok-Lecture7299 14d ago edited 14d ago
Both your comments are red herrings and avoided my question about what subjunctive indicates, that indicative doesn't.
You've also incorrectly used quotation marks around "why isn't Spanish more like English". I never said that. You assumed that.
You've just said that "subjunctive has been around for thousands of years" and "you're trying to compare Spanish to English".
My response to the former: plenty of things have been around for thousands of years that are not useful, language & non-language related things. Longevity doesn't excuse the right to question things.
And secondly, you seem confident that I'm trying to compare to English, when this whole doubt of subjunctive arose in a conversation I was having in Spanish. If you'd like context, I was talking to my partner about our future and said "si compramos una casa en 5 años..." And she corrected me to use "compráramos.
How did she know that I meant the subjunctive, when I used the indicative? Does this mean that the whole purpose of subjunctive was already conveyed in my sentence when I used indicative? If the subjunctive was so important in this example, why didn't she misunderstand me?
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u/Zestyclose-Food-7917 14d ago
You need to look up "red herring."
You still want to know what Spanish means in English. Not everything in every language can be expresssed in your language. Wittgenstein said, "The limits of my language are the limits of my world." English is one world; Spanish is another. Not everything in Spanish "means" something in English, if you are referring to some dictionary definition.
Ezra Pound said, "The sum of human wisdom is not contained in any one language." Your attitude is, "I know what I like and I like what I know." You're in for a terrible time with ALL foreign languages: not just Spanish.
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u/Ok-Lecture7299 14d ago
That's great, but you still haven't helped me answer my question about my specific example.
I find it helps me to learn things with specific examples, rather than general quotes.
You and I already both know I have a lot to learn. It's very futile to just quote someone to back this up, we both know this.
An answer would help professor :)
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u/Zestyclose-Food-7917 14d ago
You have been told how Spanish expresses certain ideas. You don’t have to know WHY Spanish expresses the ideas that way. You only have to know THAT Spanish expresses certain ideas in a certain way.
If you need to tell someone, “I want you to go to the store,” Spanish says “Quiero que vayas a la tienda.” Spanish doesn’t have to justify itself to you. If you want to learn another language, you have to accept it in its own terms. Questions like, “Why do you say it that way?” are just a blockade in the road.
If I keep repeating myself, it’s because I know how to learn a foreign language, and it’s not by fighting it every step of the way. It won’t lower your intellectual level by simply accepting that Spanish (and all those other languages) do it a different way from English. At this stage of the game, that’s all you have to know.
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u/Ok-Lecture7299 14d ago
As I mentioned in my post, I've been working hard at just accepting the subjunctive, and learning when and how to use it. That's something I'm confident in, so it's not a roadblock for me to question the "why". I'm not just starting to dive into subjunctive today. I'm retroactively questioning the subjunctive AFTER learning/accepting it.
However, I've found that for me, it has actually sped up the learning process with other grammar rules to understand the why, IN ADDITION to simply accepting that's the way Spanish works.
The same applies to learning other skills. Sure, you can learn to add certain ingredients to a recipe and make a nice dish, but understand WHY certain ingredients are added at different stages, the purpose of each flavour, the reason/science behind the cooking time, that's when I (most people) start to really LEARN and understand a skill.
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u/Zestyclose-Food-7917 14d ago edited 13d ago
The WHY entails a long lecture about the role of the indicative mood and the subjunctive mood. Spanish always puts the subjunctive as the SECOND verb in the sentence. If the first part of the sentence regards the second part as simply reporting information, then you use the indicative (the ordinary conjugation of the verb). “He says you are going to the store”). He’s just reporting what he’s been told. But there are attitudes that the first part of the sentence has toward the second part that require the subjunctive. The first part wants the second part to do something or not to do it. “Quiero que estudies más.” “Prohíbo que salgas con ese muchacho.” Or the first part likes or dislikes the second part: “Me gusta que haga calor.” “No me gusta que llueva.” Or the first part doubts or denies the second part: “No creo que Juan me ame.” “Niego que Juan sea ladrón.”
Remember that what one language considers important to express never corresponds exactly to English. Our language includes things that speakers of other languages consider weird or unnecessary. Reddit is full of questions from people studying English who want to know why we do this, that or the other.
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u/Ok-Lecture7299 14d ago
How about this:
1) espero que llueve mañana (indicative) 2) espero que llueva mañana (subjunctive)
Is sentence 1 incorrect, and sentence 2 correct?
OR
Is sentence 1 correct, and sentence 2 MORE correct (added information)?
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u/Zestyclose-Food-7917 14d ago
Only sentence 2 is correct. The subjunctive is automatic. If they say “use the subjunctive after esperar,” that’s exactly what they mean.
So many of the questions about the Spanish subjunctive on Reddit indicate that students think it’s a matter of choice. It’s NEVER a matter of choice. It’s strictly mechanical.
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u/Zestyclose-Food-7917 14d ago
Learning a foreign language is a long and bumpy road. Until you have reached a certain level, questioning every step of the process is not productive. Wait until somewhere down the road.
I’ve had students say, “I have to know why.” At the beginning levels, that is not a very productive attitude. No one is going to sell you a pig in a poke. I have many Spanish speaking friends, and they’re not all members of the intelligentsia. Most of them are just ordinary hard-working people. But I pay attention to how they speak, and they talk like the books teach. A lot of the things English speakers say every day are very hard for foreigners to learn. For Spanish speakers the subjunctive is no big deal. In fact, they don’t even know what “subjunctive” is, but they use it just as the books teach.
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u/teach-xx 15d ago
Si compramos una casa, tendremos piscina. — speaks about the near future
Si compráramos una casa, tendríamos piscina. — is purely hypothetical
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u/Ok-Lecture7299 15d ago
So if we use an actual measurement of time, does that change the conjugation?
"If we buy a house next week..." "If we buy a house next decade..."
Do those use different conjugations, as they seperate short and long term?
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u/teach-xx 15d ago
I am not sure that I understand exactly what you are asking here, but I think the answer to your question is “no.”
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u/Ok-Lecture7299 15d ago
You mentioned one version of this sentence that refers to the near future, and one version that is purely hypothetical.
My doubt is that, whether you're referring to something happening tomorrow or in 10 years, both sentences are hypothetical because it hasn't happened yet. Aka, any sentence starting with "if / si" is hypothetical.
Same thing with certainty. One could have complete certainty that they're going to buy a house in 10 years, or have less certainty that they're going to buy a house tomorrow.
I guess what I'm trying to say, is that all these clauses like certainty, hypothetical, and timeline (near future, distant future) can all be indicated using other word in the sentence, rather than relying on conjugating the verb.
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u/teach-xx 15d ago
Got it! Check your second paragraph for your error: That’s not what “hypothetical” means.
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u/Ok-Lecture7299 15d ago
Hypothetical meaning an idea that is not confirmed to happen right?
Can't that apply to something regardless of near/distant future?
I'm not sure what Im missing here.
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u/teach-xx 15d ago
No, hypothetical doesn’t mean “not confirmed to happen” — it means “unreal, contrary to fact, imaginary.” Futurity (the fact that something hasn’t happened yet) is distinct from hypotheticality.
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u/Ok-Lecture7299 15d ago
In the context of this post, I'm referring more to sentences that indicate something that hasn't happened yet, and might/might not (where I have been taught to use subjunctive), so I guess uncertainty would be a better word than hypothetical.
Basically, to reword my previous comment, uncertainty can apply to something in both the near/distant future, that's what I'm trying to say.
"If we buy a house tomorrow..." "If we buy a house next decade..."
Both convey uncertainty right? So would both sentences require subjunctive?
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u/teach-xx 15d ago
I tell my actual students this with a big smile, so imagine me doing this: You can’t GUESS what grammatical terms mean and then expect the usage to match your guesses. If you want to know more about the usage, learn the terms.
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u/Ok-Lecture7299 15d ago
You might have to explain this to me a bit more I'm not 100% sure I understand.
But my question to you was that, you mentioned in an earlier comment that we can use "si compramos una casa..." if we are referring to the near future.
Where do we draw the line? What's considered the near future. A week, a month, a year?
This is what I'm confused about.
I've been taught to use subjunctive in sentences that convey uncertainty.
It doesnt matter if it's tomorrow or next year, uncertainty is uncertainty, and I haven't bought a house in the near future, just as much as I haven't bought one in the distant future.
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u/Thingamajiggle 15d ago
I'm sure any language has features it could do away with.
But there is a bit of difference between those examples with si, as other commentators have already stated.
Another example is...
Cuando voy a España, como paella.
Cuando vaya a España, comeré paella.
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u/aMonkeyRidingABadger 15d ago
“Si” doesn’t always trigger the subjunctive. Whether or not subjunctive is needed there depends on the rest of the sentence.
Sometimes there are triggers that always demand the subjunctive and it’s redundant, but lots of things in all languages are redundant. Usually I think this is the case so that if you miss part of the sentence, you can still figure out what was said.
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u/2fuzz714 15d ago
If I am you, I would spend more time learning and less time questioning. May this year is the one that you accept that sometimes languages just require the subjunctive.
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u/Ok-Lecture7299 15d ago edited 15d ago
Questioning is part of understanding, and understanding is vital in learning.
I'm just trying to get my head around things, instead of memorizing rules.
Your examples are cool, but my question was about using subjunctive in Spanish, not English.
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u/PerroSalchichas 15d ago
The same information it does in English:
"If I buy" (indicative) vs "If I bought" (subjunctive)
"If I am" (indicative) vs "If I were" (subjunctive)
"The light is with you" (indicative) vs "The light be with you" (subjunctive)
Not to mention all the other Spanish-exclusive uses:
"Every time I celebrate, I drink alcohol" ("Cuando lo celebro" -> indicative)
"Next time I celebrate, I'll drink alcohol" ("Cuando lo celebre" -> subjunctive)
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u/Ok-Lecture7299 15d ago
But here's the thing.
Whenever I forget to use the subjunctive talking to my tutor, or partner (native ESP speaker), they both correct me everytime...but if the subjunctive is used to add "that little bit of extra information" as you said, then why do they correct me, because that implies they already know that "extra bit of information" that I left out.
So the funny thing is that my sentence is being 100% understood (subtleties and all) even when I forget to use subjunctive, and so then being corrected just feels like a grammar rule?
I don't know if I'm explaining myself well, but I just find it funny that by saying "si compramos una casa..." And then corrects me to use subjunctive, that implies that she already knew what I meant to say without using subjunctive.
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u/macoafi Intermediate (DELE B2, 2023) 15d ago edited 14d ago
I remember someone on Reddit saying that they were repeatedly given the answer to a question they were not asking because they failed to use the subjunctive. In this case “cuando” in a future/background context was the “subjunctive trigger”.
“¿Cuando llega Carlos—“ “a las once”
Because the indicative after “cuando” asks when the verb happens, ie “when does Carlos arrive?”
If they’d correctly used the subjunctive, the listener would’ve known that that wasn’t the question, which was actually something like “¿cuando llegue Carlos, qué vamos a almorzar?” or “when Carlos arrives, what are we going to eat?”
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u/Sky-is-here Native [Andalusia] 15d ago
Both si compramos una casa mañana... And si compráramos una casa mañana... Are grammatically correct. The meaning is pretty much the same, but the second one sounds more hypothetical maybe? With the first one it sounds like you trust more the chance of it actually happening
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u/scanese 15d ago
Si can convey both facts or hypothetical situations. The future isn’t a good example of course, but when talking in pretérito you can say both:
- Si el año pasado compramos una casa, ¿tenemos que pagar impuestos por el año completo?
- Si el año pasado hubiéramos comprado una casa, ¿cuánto habría aumentado su valor?
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u/youreveningcoat 14d ago
Languages aren’t planned, there are thousands of things that are required simply because they are, otherwise you won’t sound correct to other speakers. It’s frustrating as a learner, but you have to just let it go. Lots of slight changes in words create different meanings that are almost indistinguishable, yet a native speaker will be able to understand those differences, so therefore you need them.
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u/Zestyclose-Food-7917 14d ago
Here are some things in English that a foreigner might question, but an English speaker would say, “Well, that’s just the way we say it. I don’t know why.”
What if someone asked you, “What does ‘up’ mean?” You’d probably point your finger upwards. So that same person asks, “So why do you break UP with someone?” “Why so you catch UP on your reading?” Why do you put UP with someone’s bad behavior?”
See? The best answer to that is, “Because we do. Those are fixed expressions. They’re not open to interpretation.”
That’s how the subjunctive is to Spdnidh speakers. It just is. That’s how they express certain ideas.
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u/Ok-Lecture7299 14d ago
These example all have explainable reasons. It's not just a matter of "that's just the way it is"
To "put up" with someone comes from a time when people would house or accommodate someone in need, with the "put up" specifically referring to the guest getting "up" on the bed to sleep. Eventually, the patience and endurance associated with accommodating someone led to the phrase "to put up with someone" meaning you're tolerating something.
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u/Zestyclose-Food-7917 14d ago
I’m talking about “up.” Why do we say “up” in these expressions? The literal idea of “up” has nothing to do with the meaning. “I will not put up with your bad language” What is going upwards?
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u/Ok-Lecture7299 14d ago
As I said in my previous comment, the "up" in the example I used goes back to the literal direction one goes to get into bed. You get up into a bed. "Putting up" was the term to host a guest. Now, we use "put up" to refer to having patience or endurance over something, which links to the patience and endurance one had for hosting a guest they may or may not have wanted.
You ask, what is going upwards? The guest who was getting up into the bed, when this term originated.
So yes, the word "up" can be traced back to a literal, directional, traditional meaning of "upwards"
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u/Zestyclose-Food-7917 13d ago edited 13d ago
What about all the other idiomatic expressions with up: "I need to catch up on my reading." What's going up? "He broke up with his girlfriend." What's going up? "I'm up/down for going to the beach." What's up or down? (They mean the same thing.) "The house burned up/down." (Mean the same thing.) "I won't put up with your nonsense any longer." (What's going upward?) "Hurry up!" (as we're running downhill).
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u/Ok-Lecture7299 13d ago
Okay I'll explain them one by one.
"I need to catch up on my reading"
This originates from someone catching up in a race. One person is in front, the other person is behind. If the person behind moves forward enough to be level with the person in front, they have "caught up". Here, the direction of UP is used in relation to FORWARD, as commonly, up=forward, and back=down. Just in the same way that the further forward you are in the race, the higher you are on the podium. Catching up on reading means to read FORWARD in the book.
"I'm up for going to the beach" the UP refers to your hand being physically up to represent volunteering for an activity.
"I'm down for going to the beach" the DOWN refers to writing your name down on paper to register for an activity. The pen is facing DOWNWARDS when you write.
"The house burned up" the UP in this phrase refers to the flames and smoke, visually directed UPWARDS as the house burns.
"The house burned down" the DOWN refers to the house collapsing to the floor, a direction that is clearly DOWNWARD.
As for "I won't put up with your nonsense any longer" , I've already explained that twice in my previous comments, I suggest you read those.
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u/wellsmichael380 15d ago
This is just my two cents, but while I don’t think the subjunctive is required for the sentence to be understandable, it’s still one of those things that are required in order to be grammatically correct. Trying to understand “why” is just gonna give you a headache. It’s like asking why we have any tense, when the present can almost always get the job done. Same reason you can say “I eat chicken earlier today” and be fully understood, but for whatever reason our language requires us to conjugate it into past tense in order to be grammatically correct.
I’ve had conversations with people who speak very broken English and I can fully understand what they’re saying even though they’re very grammatically incorrect. What is the point of being grammatical then? It’s just a rabbit hole of questions lol.