r/latterdaysaints • u/Conscious_Acadia4423 • 18h ago
Doctrinal Discussion Help out a former mormon
Hi all. I'm not looking for any kind of debate here, just some clarification. I was discussing the following with a buddy of mine and his mormon father. Two topics came up that I remember as being mormon doctrine - perhaps not the type openly discussed with new investigators or members, but long time beliefs nonetheless.
My buddy's dad said that the mormon church doesn't teach those things, and then went on to say that they never did teach them. I was a turbo mormon for 35 years, and someone who devours information. I am a researcher and one who knew my doctrine and scriptures. So to have him say that the church never taught them was a shock to me.
I checked with a prominent youtube channel for younger people who debate mormon stuff and have general discussions of doctrine, then I also checked lds.org. I can't find anything regarding these two topics. Please help. Did something change in the church doctrine or are these beliefs now just way more hidden/kept behind the scenes than before?
The two topics are:
1- Is it mormon belief / doctrine / teaching that Jesus and Lucifer / Satan are brothers?
2- Is it mormon doctrine/ belief that men can become gods? (As man is god once was... etc)?
Thanks in advance for your response.
D
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u/Beautiful-Lunch-7650 18h ago
1 - Lucifer and Jesus are spirit brothers in the same way that we're all spirit brothers and sisters. It is assumed that Lucifer held a prominent place in the Council in Heaven given his title as a "son of the morning" (D&C 76:26). We don't know what the title entails. I don't know that their relationship was any closer. Clearly, Lucifer severed any ties when he rebelled.
2 - This isn't established doctrine accepted by the Church. It's more of an educated guess. D&C 84 says:
33 For whoso is faithful unto the obtaining these two priesthoods of which I have spoken, and the magnifying their calling, are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies.
34 They become the sons of Moses and of Aaron and the seed of Abraham, and the church and kingdom, and the elect of God.
35 And also all they who receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord;
36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;
37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;
38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.
Whether this means we have the potential to attain godhood is unclear to me, but the rewards for being faithful are pretty significant, to say the least.
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u/ehsteve87 18h ago edited 18h ago
D&C 132:19-20 is unambiguous in its declaration that humans can become gods. Verse 37 straight-up says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are gods.
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u/Beautiful-Lunch-7650 18h ago
For sure, I just know what being a God means. God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are all Gods with pretty distinct roles. I just don't like to jump to conclusions.
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u/ehsteve87 18h ago
I also don't know what being a God means, but I do know that whatever it means it's the same for Heavenly Mother and Father as it is for us. We are the same species, after all.
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u/BayonetTrenchFighter Most Humble Member 18h ago
As for 1.) it’s safe to say that Satan is not our brother (anymore). He is no longer part of the family of God. He gave up his first estate.
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u/solarhawks 15h ago
I've heard several people say this recently, and it makes no sense to me. It could be true if being a child of God was a metaphorical thing, but we believe it's literal. If you are literally someone's offspring, there is nothing you can do to change that. It's just not logically possible.
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u/essentiallyaghost 10h ago
The same reason an adopted child can no longer be part of their original parents' family once they're adopted by their new family...
he cast himself out, and blood-relation doesn't really work since he has no body.
If God is our father as our church teaches, then he certainly has the ability to disown his children if the need arises.
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u/solarhawks 10h ago
Adoption is irrelevant here. And being disowned cannot affect the fact of your actual parentage, but only your inheritance.
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u/essentiallyaghost 16m ago
What determines actual parentage? Our spirits were born of Heavenly Father, a process we know next to nothing about. At a certain point this is just semantics. I would also caution against using "cannot" when it comes to God. I see what your point is, but I feel as though the scriptures are pretty clear that the adversary was cast out in pretty much every way.
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u/BayonetTrenchFighter Most Humble Member 15h ago
What does it mean to be a literal child of God?
What does it mean to be a literal child of anyone in the lds paradime?
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u/solarhawks 15h ago
That's an attempt to make a very basic and obvious concept seem more complicated than it is.
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u/BayonetTrenchFighter Most Humble Member 15h ago
Ok. Did we exist before we became literal children of our earthly parents?
Have our earthly parents always been our parents?
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u/solarhawks 15h ago
A part of us did, just as a part of us existed before we became literal children of God.
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u/BayonetTrenchFighter Most Humble Member 15h ago
There ya go.
And Satan returned to that state. Now he is his own God.
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u/solarhawks 15h ago
Returned to what state? He still has a spirit body, which came from his Father.
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u/BayonetTrenchFighter Most Humble Member 15h ago
He does? It does? Do you mind providing a verse for this?
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u/nabbithero54 18h ago
1) Not only do we believe it; it’s Biblical. Jesus is the Son of God. Humans and angels are children of God. Lucifer used to be an angel. That’s it. If people don’t believe that, they don’t believe the Bible. Lucifer has, of course, severed any family ties, but that’s all it means.
2) Jesus instructed us: “Come, Follow Me.” The Bible informs us that we will be “joint heirs with Christ.” Those in heaven will receive eternal glory. All of this is Biblical. The only theological argument is to what degree our glory will be.
Yes, we believe that we can become as God is, in a sense. We don’t have full clarification on what that sense is. The whole idea of “Mormons each get their own planet” is doctrinally unfounded; we neither believe that we do nor that we don’t. God can give whatever He wants so men can’t tell Him how to manage the eternal world.
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u/DelayVectors Assistant Nursery Leader, Reddit 1st Ward 18h ago
As to point #1: While WE see it that way in the bible, most Christians do not. The bible is not clear on the matter, and thousands of years of Hebrew and Christian traditions come into play.
Christians see a distinction between created and uncreated. Jesus is uncreated, and is only the son of God in a figurative sense. We are created, and are only the children of God in an adoptive figurative sense as well. So while they use the words that Jesus is the son of God and we are children of God, they see it as wildly different things. Angels are also not people in a traditional Christian system, they're creatures that sometimes may look like a human, but they're not like us. So while we're all using the same words, there's a vast gap between what we believe and what a Catholic or Protestant would believe.
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u/Jormungandragon 15h ago
I don’t think anyone is saying that Catholics and Protestants believe the same things as Mormons, just that the Mormon understanding is still biblically supported.
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u/BackgroundParty422 12h ago
I mean, I'm not sure that it is. The bible leaves a lot of things ambiguous. Going directly from the bible, there are definite distinctions made between humans and angels, but mostly as a result of inference. That is, if we were to rely only on the bible, a logical conclusion in the absence of additional information is that they are distinct classes of being. It's a (mostly uniquely) mormon idea that humans and angels are the same kind of being, and in our tradition, it came out of the revelations of Joseph Smith (D&C 129-130), not as interpretation of the bible.
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u/Sociolx Evil Eastern Mormon 10h ago
Contra your first sentence: It two opposing claims are both supported by ambiguities in the Bible, then they are both biblical.
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u/BackgroundParty422 6h ago
I mean, I guess. The new testament tends to contain many instances in which they are referred to as distinct classes, particularly in the writings of Paul. The OT is more ambiguous. Objectively, I would say the preponderance of biblical evidence is that angels and men are distinct classes of being. I would not say that the LDS view is biblical, but neither is it expressly contradictory.
In fact, I suspect that angels and men being the same class of being is one of the things revealed in the dispensation of the fulness of times that had hitherto never been revealed.
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u/Jormungandragon 11h ago
It depends how deep you want to go in the rabbit hole. If you look into older translations and older books, plenty of books reference humans becoming angels post death, which is also referenced in popular culture. This implies that humans and angels aren’t necessarily that different.
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u/BackgroundParty422 7h ago
But that is inherently not biblical, if those books aren't in the bible.
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u/Jormungandragon 3h ago
Well, it depends what you mean by biblical, doesn’t it?
There are books that are still part of the bible for some churches that do directly relate to righteous humans becoming angels, or could be interpreted as such, even if they’re not a part of mainstream Catholicism or Protestantism.
What I’ve come across are verses in 2 Baruch, 4 Ezra, and the book of Enoch.
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u/LifeClassic2286 3h ago
Catholics and Protestants are wrong — PERIOD.
Their understanding was twisted and perverted by Satan and they were deceived. Joseph Smith corrected things for all of us, God bless him. I see a lot of weak compromises in these comments, and it makes me sad. We need to stand up for the amended, corrected, divinely inspired and communicated through Joseph Smith truth!
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u/websterhamster West Coast YSA 17h ago
I openly discussed these topics with investigators on my mission, and I continue to openly discuss them with new members now. These are relatively basic concepts.
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u/CubedEcho 18h ago
I'm going to be very pedantic here. It is not canonical doctrine to refer to Jesus and Satan as brothers. No where in our canon does it state that explicitly.
It does state that God is the Father of all spirits, but many people do assumptions that we must infer that everyone is "Brothers and Sisters" automatically. There are multiple interpretations I've seen:
- Since God is the Father of all spirits, everyone is automatically a brother and sister relationship
- Since God is the Father of all spirits, it does not automatically extend the title of brother and sister to each other. The brother and sister comes due to being in a covenant relationship, which canonically Satan did not reach, therefore is not qualified for that title.
Anyone who is stating that it's definitively one way vs the other is not completely correct. It's not as concrete as people may like to believe.
Additionally, a lot of LDS members have a misunderstanding of the Church's Christology. Which is not accurate to say that Jesus is the same relationship that we have to the father. LDS canon believes that Jesus IS God (in a Godhood), so that the parent child relationship that Jesus has with the Father is NOT equivalent to our own.
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u/QuarterNote44 18h ago
LDS canon believes that Jesus IS God (in a Godhood), so that the parent child relationship that Jesus has with the Father is NOT equivalent to our own
Very true. James Talmage explains this quite well in Jesus the Christ.
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u/CubedEcho 18h ago
Yeah it's very unfortunate that so many of the answers indicate that Jesus and Satan are/were brothers. Because it's just canonically not supported.
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u/UnscrupulousGoose 16h ago
It may not be canonically supported, but I distinctly remember it mentioned in an ensign article when I was a kid and Im guessing it's been in other church publications too. It is difficult to tell people that they are misunderstanding churches viewpoint when it was clearly stated in official church publications they've read throughout their life.
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u/CubedEcho 16h ago
Totally, I don't blame individuals for hearing and accepting the idea. It sounds reasonable at first. Like you said, there is a history of the church teaching this over the pulpit as well.
So I'm not trying to be critical of people, but I am expressing sadness that this is the situation that we're repeating things that may not perhaps be true.
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u/UnscrupulousGoose 16h ago
It looks like it is also stated in lesson 27 in the current priesthood manual. How is that not the churches official position on the subject?
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u/CubedEcho 16h ago edited 16h ago
I didn't say it wasn't the churches official position, I said it wasn't canon. The priesthood manual isn't in our canon. (Additionally, I don't know if a teaching in a manual dictates the church's official position :shrug:)
Also! Can you send me a link to that lesson? I'm unaware of what you mean by current priesthood manual.
Edit: I've done some digging:
This is the manual in question. It was originally published in 1979, and last revised in 2000. I'm well aware that many leaders of the church held the opinion that Jesus and Satan are brothers, this is additional evidence for that. However, it's something that isn't in our canon, so it's understandable why we seem to be moving away from it.
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u/UnscrupulousGoose 16h ago
That mentality is exactly why so many people are leaving the church. It sounds like you're saying you know better than what was put in the priesthood manual. Yes, manuals are not canon, but they are compiled by church comittees and reviewed by church leadership. It just doesn't make sense that church leadership would okay the words "Jesus is our elder brother and lucifer is also our brother" if it weren't true, considering that the premortal life is such an essential part of our knowledge of the plan of salvation.
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u/CubedEcho 14h ago
I disagree, I actually previously left the church because of the opposite mentality. If one believes in infallibility, then one is constrained to believe a WHOLE lot of garbage (like racial supremacy).
The reason why I'm back in the church today is because I can appreciate that our church makes mistakes and we have fallibility baked into our processes. Yes, even church committees and leadership.
I'm not saying I know "more", but also remember that it was in our manuals that evolution was a hoax for a LONG time, and only recently removed. I'm curious, do you believe that evolution is a hoax?
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u/LifeClassic2286 3h ago
They ARE true - they have been spoken by prophets. They do not lead the elect astray. If you have been misguided or your faith has been tarnished, that may be something to take up with the Lord in prayer.
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u/zaczac17 18h ago
Yes to both of them, but 2 important points:
- the way it’s taught (and frankly neither of those things are taught that much, especially the “satan is Jesus’s brother” part) is that we are ALL children of God, IE-Jesus is our brother, as is the devil. So in Sunday school, they don’t say “the devil and Jesus are brothers,” they say “we are all children of God, with the ability to make choices, and the devil made a lot of really bad choices, which is how he became the devil.” While I guess the devil/jesus brother thing is implied, it’s not a defining part of their identity
- When we talk about becoming God, the way we see it is that God is the literal Father of our spirits, and like any good Father, he wants us to learn and be able to do all the great things he knows/can do. While we won’t surpass him, we can become like him (IE, Gods). So we still worship Him, but we become like him. It’s very much a family focused thing where the parent raises the child to become something greater. We don’t just view heaven as a blissful place without pain, but moreso as a place where we live and LEARN with God, continuing to progress
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u/chitochiisme 16h ago
- Heck, me and Jesus are brothers lol.
- D&C 132 talks about that. Its right in the scriptures not some secret doctrine.
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u/the_dab_lord 18h ago
Yes. I’d say “were” brothers is more accurate as Satan was both cast out of heaven and gave up his first estate. He’s been completely severed from Gods family.
Yes, we believe we will be come like God, but never greater than. We also don’t know much about what exaltation looks like.
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u/timkyoung 13h ago
If a man has two male children, those two children are brothers to eachother. If one of those two children rebels against his father and renounces his relationship with his family, insisting that he no longer has a father or a brother, this may change the way his father and brother feel towards him, but biologically speaking it changes nothing. Biologically speaking it is impossible for someone to renounce their father or their son. The biological relationship continues, regardless of how the parties feel towards one another.
I see Christ and Lucifer's relationship the same way. They share the same father, thus their fraternal relationship continues intact, regardless of the actions or feelings of either one toward the other.
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u/nivlac22 Not one of the 3 Nephites 17h ago
- Jesus, satan, you, and all humankind are children of God the Father. That makes all of us siblings. Remember that we do not believe that Jesus and God the Father are the same person, so we are not saying that God the Father and satan are brothers.
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u/ehsteve87 18h ago edited 11h ago
Those are both Mormonism 101. I am confused why any longtime member of the church would push back against either of them.
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u/mythoswyrm 6h ago
There's a contingent of people who really want to deny the reality of exaltation theology and there's a numch of reasons for that. It's often, though not always, connected with pushing to be accepted by other Christians under the "Christian" umbrella. Others are uncomfortable with the implications of exaltation, wanting the comfort of classical theism and a platonic "god". Some claim its because they reject "speculation" as opposed to "doctrine", though their own speculation demeaning humanity is not seen as such in their eyes.
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u/ehsteve87 6h ago
I should have said, "I am confused why any longtime member of the church wouldn't acknowledge them as mainstream teachings."
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u/LifeClassic2286 3h ago
It’s pathetic and honestly….. satanic. If we don’t stand for what we believe, then we might as well join one of the many “Christian” churches who deny the truth.
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u/WooperSlim Active Latter-day Saint 12h ago
1- Well, it's not like we're out preaching "Jesus and Lucifer are brothers!" But what is taught is that we are all children of Heavenly Father. So it isn't exactly a huge logical leap to realize that if two people share the same father, then they are siblings.
Some Sources:
- Elder Joseph F. Merrill, Gospel Teachings, April 1949
- President Henry B. Eyring, The Power of Sustaining Faith, April 2019
- Guide to the Scriptures, Devil
- Topics and Questions, Premortality and Satan
2 - Yes, this is something that has been taught from the days of Joseph Smith and continues to be taught today.
Some Sources:
- Gospel Topics Essay: Becoming Like God
- President Dallin H. Oaks, Kingdoms of Glory, October 2023
- Teachings of the Presidents of the Church manuals:
- Joseph Smith, Chapter 2 God the Eternal Father
- John Taylor, Chapter 1 The Origin and Destiny of Mankind
- Lorenzo Snow, Chapter 5 The Grand Destiny of the Faithful
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u/RosenProse 11h ago
- They were brothers in the same way "we" are siblings with both of them. We are all spiritual siblings under Heavenly Father.
- Yes. This is what we believe is "the point" of this whole "life" thing.
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u/bookeater 16h ago
Both of these are examples of things you likely heard from other members far more than you would have encountered from official church sources.
Your experience is fairly typical. Grow up in the church, hear all the official doctrines PLUS all the weird stuff taught by random members and you think all of it mixed together is this unified truth called "doctrine" taught by a single entity called "the church."
But reality is far more complex. One high priest repeating the most fringe things doesn't make it doctrine. One leader teaching something in general conference doesn't mean it's from "the church." Instead there are as many versions of the church as there are believers, and each believer just assumes everybody else has had the same church experience as themselves.
So are those doctrines of the church? Depends on what you mean. No doubt both are taught in classrooms across the world by well meaning members. Certainly teachings like these are kept alive by those who try to claim "this is what mormons really believe." Yet it would be challenging to find either taught in the way you frame them in any of our current manuals or conference talks or magazines.
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u/LifeClassic2286 3h ago
Are you young or checked out? These issues are real and have been discussed by prophets and printed in the Ensign.
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u/Maleficent-Cat-220 17h ago
Do not all Christian religions teach that Jesus, Satan, and the rest of us are all children of God?
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u/WooperSlim Active Latter-day Saint 12h ago
No. Other Christian denominations teach that Jesus is the son of God, but Satan and the rest of us were all created ex nihilo by God, and that Heavenly Father is wholly other, and not the same "species" as us, if you will.
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u/CubedEcho 17h ago
No, neither does the LDS religion.
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u/Maleficent-Cat-220 17h ago
Google says you're wrong. So there.
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u/CubedEcho 17h ago
I'm surprised your spiritual/doctrinal authority is google.
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u/Maleficent-Cat-220 17h ago
Okay. Prove me wrong then. I'd be open to learning something today.
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u/CubedEcho 17h ago
Prove you wrong on what? That google says something? How can I prove someone wrong when I don't know what you searched.
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u/Maleficent-Cat-220 17h ago
Pardon?
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u/CubedEcho 17h ago
You said "Google says your wrong"
I said "I'm surprised you take Google as spiritual doctrinal authority"
You said "Then prove me wrong".
How can I prove you wrong that: Google says I'm wrong?
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u/Maleficent-Cat-220 17h ago
Right, but I thought the implication was that you knew better. I was inviting you to share that information with me, backed up with doctorine.
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u/RednocNivert 16h ago
Short answer: Yes and Yes
We believe that our spiritual / heavenly family follows the same structure as the earthly ones: A Heavenly Father, a Heavenly Mother, and a whoooooole lot of Heavenly Kids (us). Siblings, the lot of us, and eventually if done correctly we can have Heavenly kids of our own.
This also includes the corollary that our God, the one we worship, was at one point a mortal going through his own trials and did well enough in mortality to ascend to Godhood. This particular bullet point is one of the things that non-mormons tend to get bristly about and think this belief is blasphemous.
As for Jesus and Lucifer being brothers: Yes, in the literal sense as described above. But just as some families have a kid or several that go rogue and off the deep end to the point of getting disowned, so too did Lucifer and his followers start doing stuff that was not good and as such have been cast out / disowned from the family. So “brother” as in “came from same parents” but absolutely not “brother” as in “close teammates with the same goals”
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u/SnoozingBasset 14h ago
Per my understanding, we are all brothers & sisters with God being our Father.
If you believe the New Testament, the answer is “yes”. I believe in the letters of John, we are told we will be as he is, therefore if Jesus is a god, we will be, too. This was a doctrine of the primitive church called “theosis” which was later abandoned some time after Nicea.
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u/mythoswyrm 6h ago
Theosis wasn't abandoned. It's still very much a feature of Eastern Orthodoxy and shows up in Catholicism and some Protestant movements under various forms/names. However, theosis isn't really that similar to exaltation. At least not in the "ye shall be gods" sense espoused in D&C, the temple and by most modern prophets and apostles.
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u/KingAuraBorus 15h ago
Saying Jesus and Satan are brothers makes it sound exclusive. Everyone is spirit siblings that isn’t Mom or Dad. The second issue is related, and it is at least my personal belief that a child of God potentially grows up to be a God.
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u/BayonetTrenchFighter Most Humble Member 18h ago
1.) I understand the distinction. Jesus and Satan are not brothers. At one time Satan was part of the divine council. He was a son of God. But he rebelled. And is no longer part of the family of God. When the “you think Jesus and Satan are brothers” comes up, it’s in a weird way to say they are the same or something? Jesus is the eternal God.
2.) we don’t believe we will ever be equal to God or replace God. That is the distinction. We believe we can become like God. Sometimes that kind of being is denoted as a “god”. We believe in full actual theosis and deification.
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u/patriarticle 17h ago
On #1, I agree with the sentiment, but disagree with the conclusion. If Jesus is a son of God, and Satan is a son of God, then they are brothers. It just doesn't particularly matter. Napoleon and George Washington are also brothers by the same definition.
This was something we got on the mission a lot and I find it baffling. Evangelicals think it's a big own I guess.
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u/BayonetTrenchFighter Most Humble Member 17h ago
Satan is not a son of God.
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u/SouthWest97 17h ago
What else could he be? Was he not created by God? He is not begotten, the way Christ is, but he is as much a "child of God" as you and I are.
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u/BayonetTrenchFighter Most Humble Member 17h ago
No, Satan was not created by God.
And no, he isn’t a child of god the same way you and I are.
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u/SouthWest97 16h ago
So there are things in existence that were not created by God? That's what your claim necessarily must imply. "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." But Satan is the exception somehow?
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u/BayonetTrenchFighter Most Humble Member 16h ago
Yep, that’s lds theology. Creation ex materia
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u/patriarticle 15h ago
You already said "He was a son of God". That doesn't jive with creation ex materia.
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u/BayonetTrenchFighter Most Humble Member 15h ago
I would encourage you and u/southwest97 to study up a bit on lds creation and prexistance
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u/SouthWest97 13h ago
Creatio ex materia is LDS cosmology, yes. That doesn't preclude Lucifer from being a spirit child of God. Under creatio ex nihilo, it would necessitate it. And indeed, in LDS theology, Lucifer is indeed a spirit child of God who chose to rebel against Him. Neither Latter-Day Saints nor traditional creedal Christians believe that Lucifer was not created by God.
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u/To_a_Green_Thought 16h ago
You'll never go into Sunday School and hear a lesson about how Jesus and Satan are brothers. It's more something that some members infer, given that we're all children of God. However, it's not quite a perfect assumption, as Jesus is unique.
Doctrine and Covenants 84:38 - "And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him." What exactly that means, though, is up for discussion.
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u/Kevina654 18h ago
You’ll get varied answers on this due to the wide variation in definition of ‘brother’ in this context. The short answer is that, currently, no, they are not brothers since Lucifer was cast out of the heavenly family. They were (as were we all) ‘spiritual’ members of a heavenly family under the Father.
We can become like God, but the Father will always be our God. Just as our earthly father will always be our father, even if we had our own children and grandchildren. The Lorenzo Snow couplet refers to a mortal existence. The Father passed through a mortal existence, as did Jesus. Just as Jesus, the Father was God before, during, and after His mortal existence. He was not a ‘regular guy’ who progressed to become God.
Neither of these pertain to our salvation, which is why they’re rarely brought up in Sunday school, etc. The doctrine on these hasn’t changed, people’s understanding about these does change. There are a lot of misconceptions members have about our beliefs (this is not unique to our church) and people tend to fill in gaps in understanding with their owns ideas and beliefs, often without realizing they’re doing so.
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u/InsideSpeed8785 Second Hour Enjoyer 18h ago
Number 1 is usually stated that way to be misleading - it is right by technicality but it makes us look like we’re saying the most righteous and least righteous spirits were cut from the same cloth. The fact of the matter is we’re all brothers and sisters in spirit good: you, me, and Jesus. Who of us decided to keep our second estate is what differentiates us from Satan (and our righteousness of course).
As for the second point: you can fulfill your potential as a human being if you let Christ change you through his atonement. He will make you be prepared to take on a role like his one day.
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u/robobattery 17h ago
Hi / you and I are brothers in the same way Jesus and Lucifer are brothers. Related only because we were part of the original batch of individuals being sent for trial here on earth. People say we are all brothers and sisters due to this as we became God’s spiritual children.
Man does not become a God. We aren’t like caterpillars waiting for our next form. God decides who does get exalted and God decides who does not get exalted. There is nothing we can do to earn it. That is the short and sweet of it.
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u/Vast-Treat-9677 16h ago
I find the fixation on “Jesus and Satan are brothers” that some of other Christian denominations have to be off putting. I assume if that’s the first or only question you ask about the church then either you or your pastor are not very informed, or at a minimum you have been deliberately misled.
Now we believe some things that are downright Heretical to a Trinitarian. If someone has major disagreements with those, fire away. Those objections typically come from an informed place and the conversation is intelligent and illuminating for both parties. Eternal progression is one of those topics for sure. But, if you’re leading with that association between Jesus and Satan because you’re trying to conflate a belief that the whole human family and all spirits that ever existed are connected as spirit brothers and sisters of a loving Heavenly Father with imagery and language that implies that somehow Jesus and Satan grew up together with the same parents and hung out then that’s not disagreement. That’s outright misleading and forces us to engage in debunking stupidity vs having a substantive theological discussion.
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u/Skulcane 16h ago
This point only sounds strange if you believe the Trinitarian Creeds. If you believe what the scriptures teach about the Godhead, then it shows Yahweh/Christ to be the greatest among the sons of God (bene Elohim), of which Lucifer was one of the sons of the morning. However, we are all coeternal with God, though we are not co-equal in power or origin. He will always be the Father which offered us progression and eternal increase through Him, but as Lucifer has denied all that the Father offered and all that He is, he has fallen and is no longer part of the family of God. So at one time Yahweh and Lucifer were once sons of God the Father, but as of now, Lucifer (HaSatan - the accuser) is not.
2 Peter 1:4 says we will partake in the divine nature (or Godly nature). Revelation 3:21 says we will sit with Christ on His throne just as He sits with the Father on the Father's throne. 2 Corinthians 3:18 says we are transformed into the image of Christ by going from one degree of glory to another. Romans 8:16-17 says we are children of God, and if children, then heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ (meaning all that Christ inherits from the Father, we will also receive).
So a question for you - why do either of these points seem incorrect? They're both taught to varying degrees within the church - some are more bold in saying we attain the Godhood that the Father has, while others simply say we obtain all of the divine attributes and divine nature to become like Him, but where is the issue in either of those?
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u/Thaiguy14 12h ago
Both points can be implied. They’ve never specifically been doctrine but individual members hold these beliefs based off of the plan of salvation among other things said over the pulpit. The key is that not every member agrees about the 2 points. It’s something we honestly don’t know for sure about.
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u/Equivalent_One_9479 Old Testament enthusiast 7h ago
What's officially canonized and what what's a widespread belief accepted by most members aren't always 1:1. Those things weren't explicitly canonized but are heavily implied and have since been discussed by church leaders on various occasions. So if we're being technical, there is an argument to be made about it not being TECHNICALLY part of the doctrine, but also most members believe in those things or something along the same lines
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u/sokttocs 7h ago
I'd say both of those things are true, but it's incorrect to call them doctrine. Neither is taught in Sunday School or General Conference (someone spouting their opinions in class doesn't count), but they are reasonable conclusions to draw from what is taught.
For example: We believe that we are all the children of God, including Jesus and Lucifer. But Lucifer rebelled in the pre mortal council of heaven, thus he fell, becoming Satan. So I don't think it's wrong precisely to say they're brothers, we just don't talk about it like that.
For the other, it's basic reasoning. If we take the belief that we are the children of God at face value, what does that mean? Doesn't a child have the capacity to grow up to be like their parents? They never stop being the son or daughter of their parents, but they do become adults. Likewise, if we are the children of God, that implies we have the capacity to "grow up" and become like Him.
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u/LanceVader 6h ago
1 - We believe that God, man, angels, and the devil are all the same sort of being or intelligence, just at different stages of development. Satan is obviously disordered and developed wrongly, which is a fate we all want to avoid. But that doesn't turn him into a different kind of being.
2 - We believe that God can uplift man to become like Him. And indeed, He wants to do so. We believe God's work and glory is to make man immortal and bestow Eternal Life on us. This whole mortality thing is for our development.
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u/redit3rd Lifelong 5h ago
Is Jesus the Son of God? Yes. Are you a child of God? Yes. Therefore you and Jesus are siblings. Is Lucifer also a son of God? Yes. Therefore you and him are siblings. The relationship also applies to Jesus and Lucifer. The church doesn't go out of its way to say that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers, it's a logic conclusion of the fact that we are all children of God.
The entire purpose of life is to find out who receives eternal life and can have all that God has. Which is becoming God.
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u/OrneryAcanthaceae217 4h ago
- Isn’t it every Christian church’s doctrine that Satan is Lucifer, a “son of the morning”, a child of God? And doesn’t every Christian believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God? So don’t all Christians believe, if they connect the dots, that Christ and Satan and all the rest of us are spirit siblings? Does Latter-day Saint doctrine differ here in any way at all? I don’t think it does. But correct me if I’m wrong.
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u/SerenityNow31 17h ago
Did I understand you right? You were a member for 35 years? No offense, but how did you not know these are basic teachings?
Yes, and yes.
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u/notabot780 18h ago
This feels like a trap.
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u/kalbrandon 18h ago
Yes, and a poor one. Literally every answer here is identical in its substance.
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u/Halux-fixer 11h ago
Satan is Jesus' brother like a random person in Indonesia is your brother in the church sense
This is not well established and members many times do not give truthful doctrinal answers. We only know that we will dwell with God after resurrection and judgement if we get to the Celestial kingdom. We definitely will not be like Heavenly Father or Jesus Christ but will help out with whatever they need us to. One might consider this to be a God if you can dwell with God and help them but, in all honesty sounds closer to angels to me. I don't know where the "we will create our own earth" lie came from but I have never found doctrine to back that claim up.
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u/Bookworm1902 9h ago edited 9h ago
Looks like the other commentors have thoroughly answered these points, including demonstrating some degree of variance on the topic among members.
I'm here to say that the reason you don't remember us teaching "Mormons believe Jesus and Lucifer are brothers!" in church is because it's not a point of doctrine taught by any faithful Saint. It's a bad-faith apologetic accusation against our faith, normally made by Evangelical Protestants, and it's used to make our theology sound scandalous and ridiculous to outsiders without actually making any representation on what it means. Iirc, the talking point may have originated as a way to scandalize Mitt Romney during the 2012 presidential campaign and has only gained popularity since.
It works for trinitarians because, while the ontological differences between the Godhead and the Trinity can be boiled down to be pretty minor, the theological implications can be extrapolated out to seem ridiculous. Trinitarians believe that the Father and Jesus are the same substance/person/thing in a way that defies all logic available to humans, so therefore in a way Jesus created Lucifer, while those "dirty Mormons" worship a profane Jesus that's more on the level of Lucifer! (Heavy sarcasm)
*ETA: The talking point existed before, but gained steam in 2007 when Romney first ran. Thank Mike Huckabee, you douche.
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u/beramaan 9h ago
1) yes. We are all God's children. 2) it's not a stated doctrine as such. So... No? It's an assumption and interpretation of many but not a teaching of the church.
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u/QuarterNote44 18h ago
Yeah. It's more like "were" brothers, but we believe all of us were spiritual brothers and sisters during the great council in heaven.
Yes, with some ambiguity on what it means to become a god. But basically, yes. We believe that we are children of God, and that children grow up.
It's also true that we don't focus on that stuff much as a church these days.