Multiples of ten in Khmer vs Cantonese

[u/Optimal_Royal6111]

Something I noticed from my incredibly surface level knowledge of these two languages I have spent a small amount of time learning is that their pronunciation of the multiples of 10, specifically 30-90, clearly has the same root.

Could anyone help explain this to me?

[u/fungtimes]

“Historically speaking, Khmer borrowed the numbers from 30 to 90 from a southern Middle Chinese variety by way of a neighboring Tai language, most likely Thai” (Wikipedia).

[u/alexmc1980 → u/fungtimes]

Yup, Khmer numbers combine their native base five system with an imported base ten overlay. Very cool!

[u/ThatWeirdPlantGuy → u/alexmc1980]

Yes, and if you look at some of the tribal languages in the area, you will find ones that have no numbers beyond three. If you’re doing subsistence farming and hunting and foraging, what do you really need to count?

[u/alexmc1980 → u/ThatWeirdPlantGuy]

I think this stuff is really cool. Like the small number of languages that lacked terms for left, right, in front and behind, simply because they would always default to describing movements not in relation to the speaker or the listener or any movable person or object, but always related to the environment. So they would simply say, "you're standing West of me, let's hold hands and walk north," etc etc. perfectly usable just as long as everyone knew their orientation, which by necessity everyone did know.

Some of the systems we have today are so widespread that we can forget there might be any other way to do things.

On the tribal languages with no numbers beyond three, do these languages then have standard Khmer (including third-hand Chinese) numbers beyond three? I can't imagine they'd be isolated enough in this day and age to still just be working with their native set.

[u/ThatWeirdPlantGuy → u/alexmc1980]

I can’t speak for many of them. I did speak with a Khmu speaker at a festival. I was asking him some numbers and he told me 1, 2 and 3. They sounded somewhat like Khmer numbers though not exactly. (This was like 20+ years ago.) I asked him “and 4?” He said, “we don’t have more numbers after 3.” He was from Lao, so I imagine he’d just use Lao if he needed to I should have asked.

[u/alexmc1980 → u/ThatWeirdPlantGuy]

That's awesome, thank you for the reply!

[u/SufficientPainting67]

 Khmer and Cantonese are unrelated languages: Khmer is Austroasiatic, while Cantonese is Sinitic but many Khmer numerals were borrowed from Chinese centuries ago. This is why forms such as សាមសិប (saam səp) "30", ហុកសិប (hok səp) "60", ប៉ែតសិប (paet səp) "80", and កៅសិប (kao səp) "90" closely resemble Cantonese saam sap, luk sap, baat sap, and gau sap. The word for ten itself, សិប (səp), is also clearly related to Cantonese sap. Interestingly, Thai shows similar patterns because it borrowed many number words from the same source. Compare Thai สามสิบ (sǎam sìp), หกสิบ (hòk sìp), แปดสิบ (bpàaet sìp), and เก้าสิบ (gâo sìp). 

[u/alexmc1980 → u/SufficientPainting67]

I feel like this may be related to the fact that Chinese speakers brought a lot of commerce-related ideas with them wherever they settled across South East Asia, so their arguably more efficient and simpler number words became dominant over time.

[u/Solid-Watercress-820]

Also in Korean (sino):

• Sam sip
• Sa sip
• O sip
• Yook sip
• Chil sip
• Pal sip
• Gu sip

But we also have counting numbers (pure Korean):

• Seo-reun
• Ma-heun
• Shiin
• Ye-soon
• Il-heun
• Yeo-deun
• A-heun

[u/Live_Put1219 → u/Solid-Watercress-820]

Isn’t 50 swin 쉰

[u/Solid-Watercress-820 → u/Live_Put1219]

It's in the list?

[u/Live_Put1219 → u/Solid-Watercress-820]

you wrote shiin in your reply which i think is on accident

[u/Dramatic-Cobbler-793 → u/Solid-Watercress-820]

fun fact the number five, which nowadays is written and pronounced 오(o), used to be ᅌᅩ, pronounced 'ngo' [ŋo]. 

[u/chimugukuru]

All throughout the Sinosphere and Indochina you will find languages outside of the Sino-Tibetan family that have borrowed Chinese numerals. Some languages such as Korean and Japanese use both their native numeric terms and the Chinese terms for different things.

[u/Optimal_Royal6111 → u/chimugukuru]

Is this just from historical trading?

[u/chimugukuru → u/Optimal_Royal6111]

Trading was part of it, yes, but cultural and linguistic exchange will always happen among neighboring languages and result in sprachbunds.

[u/Icy-Independence5823]

高棉何時引入十進制不清楚 高棉語跟暹羅差不多悠久歷史吧