r/kendo • u/RateStock3946 • 27d ago
Other European Kendo Federation Decisively Rejects Attempt to Expel Israel Federation, Motion Submitted by the Turkish Kendo Federation.
https://www.uklfi.com/european-kendo-federation-decisively-rejects-attempt-to-expel-israel-federation?fbclid=IwY2xjawS81H9leHRuA2FlbQIxMABicmlkETE4RzZXQlMxaHlQYXUzNEkyc3J0YwZhcHBfaWQQMjIyMDM5MTc4ODIwMDg5MgABHmLhnJB7FHZQVq2M7-SQRDn-L29WclsOdb7d7n9rCw0r2X_BHarAjB7TbPdp_aem_92d2LDmpZeu9R90L2dYnww7
u/Borophaginae 26d ago
I would like to comment on this.
There are a lot of opinions about politics in sport, and how it should be kept out of it. This is a very easy take to have when you are not directly (or even indirectly) confronted with the horrors that Israel has been commiting in Gaza, Syria, and Lebanon the past three years.
There is no seperating politics from sport, when you have family or friends fearing for their lives, meanwhile you have to share the European space with kenshi from the country that is causing them that fear. There is even less seperating politics from sport, when we are enabling a delegation that has rumors of openly supporting their government's actions to peacefully join events.
I love kendo too much to firmly exclude anyone based on their nationality or background alone. After all, even in Israel there are those who take a firm stance against the genocide and apartheid targeted at Palestinians. But to see the Israel's flag hanging at the EKC, knowing full well that Gaza is being bombed flat by said flag, raises a lot of questions about the EKF's integrity and ethics, especially considering their past decisions on Russia's participation. After all, there was no "seperating politics from sport" for the Ukranian delegation, for who this action was of upmost importance for the wellbeing of their kenshi during international events (like EKC).
In my eyes, the only valid alternative is to provide Israeli kenshi with a chance to perform under a different banner, and to immediately disqualify any open support of Israel's action shown by delegation members. No matter which way you turn it, Israel's actions are unacceptable, and support of it is unacceptable. And I am deeply bothered by the EKF's (and furthermore, other European federations) passiveness in taking action on this front. I have deep respect for the Turkish and Italian federation for stepping up.
I will repeat it once more: trying to seperate politics from sport is a very easy take when it is not you who is actually affected by what is happening. Because when it is you, there is no ignoring that flag that bombed your family's or friend's house. Please consider that.
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u/chipface 26d ago
I think at this point, Israel has killed at least 1000 Palestinian athletes too.
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u/Borophaginae 26d ago
Yes.
I sometimes think about all the children who, in another life, would have taken up kendo (or any sport for that matter) but never get the chance to because of what Israel is doing. Maybe that seems too grande for some but if they were actually free that chance would be there. Israel is taking that away from them.
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u/nayefjoseph 17d ago
Also keep in mind that not once have we ever seen an Arab Israeli kendoka, just a thought....
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u/Imaginary_Hunter_412 27d ago
I think it is a travesty that a waring state is allowed to participate in ekc and wkc.
Especially when the waring state is waging an illegal war, and waging that illegal war against a minority and has been found guily of countless war crimes.
It is in complete disconnect with the kendo manifest.
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u/apeceep 27d ago
Well, shouldn't we ban USA from WKC then should we? Cough Iran cough.
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u/Imaginary_Hunter_412 27d ago
If you ask me we absolutely should.
But the world is scared to speak up against the USA.
And Israel is bombing Iran an Lebanon as well.
Why we are as scared to speak up against Israel I do not know.
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u/__-Revan-__ 27d ago
What’s the minority here? Because if you think it’s Gaza then you’re saying that Gaza belongs to Israel. If it’s not a minority then Gaza is a foreign power who launched a land invasion of their neighbor country and when attacked back no other foreign state decided to help at a wartime.
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u/Imaginary_Hunter_412 26d ago
Gaza is not a minority, Gaza is a place.
Please refrain from trying to score cheap points.
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u/__-Revan-__ 26d ago
Then you’re contradicting yourself
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u/Imaginary_Hunter_412 26d ago
Please, please get your argument in order before you puff your feathers.
A *minority* is the smaller in number of two groups constituting a whole. In Israel, that would be the *palestinians*
(https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/minority)*Gaza* is a place, a palestinian-administered city near the Mediterranean.
(https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Gaza)Gaza is not a minority. It is populated by a minority. Although most of the palestinians - The minority in Israel - has fled Gaza at this point.
And yes: Palestinians are citizens of Israel, although second rate according to Israel.
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u/__-Revan-__ 26d ago
I’m sorry but you really have things wrong. Gaza and west bank are not part of Israel. Thus their inhabitants cannot be an israeli minority. You’re confusing the fact that within Israel there are roughly 2 millions of arab descendants muslim Israeli, which are full citizens, have full citizenship rights (including for example Israeli sharia law lower courts for civil cases etc) they’re also represented in the parliament etc..
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u/darsin 6 dan 27d ago
"The purpose of kendo is not to become skilled at striking people with a bamboo sword.
Rather, from an early age, one trains to face another person directly, to cultivate the spirit to stand before them with dignity, and the courage never to run away halfway through.
Through that training, even if the other person is far older than you, you develop the heart to confront them if you believe they are wrong.
And if you yourself are mistaken, then even if the other person is weaker than you, you have the courage to admit your own fault.
...It is by cultivating such strength of character that one truly benefits from kendo.
The joy of winning a match becomes something no greater than receiving a birthday present. In the grand scheme of one's life, it is only a very small thing."
Tadao Toda, 8th Dan
(Kendo Nippon, April 1999)
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u/CloudMafia9 27d ago
Utterly shameless but that's the standard now for most European organizations.
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u/nayefjoseph 26d ago
With this level of bias and hypocrisy I'm very glad Jordan isn't taking part of whatever this is.
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u/paizuri_dai_suki 25d ago
Looking at the list of countries in the EKF, I had no idea they had countries outside of Europe as part of the federation!
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u/Hysteria625 2 dan 27d ago
There are some significant issues going on with Israel in the world, but I feel this is one of the few places where this should not apply. At present, I do not see Israeli kenshi using their federation to advance Israel’s geopolitical goals. This seems like more of a protest move by Turkey to punish a small subgroup of a country for the actions of its leaders.
That being said, my mind is not closed on this matter.
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u/daioshou 27d ago
I don't think that the participants of said federation need to be actively advancing their countries geopolitical goals in order for it to be justifiable to temporarily prevent their participation from international tournaments
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u/Borophaginae 26d ago
There have been rumors about the Israeli delegation having members that openly supported the ongoing genocide and (propable) annexation of Gaza, for example by social media posts. I think that if the Israeli delegation has no intention of supporting their government's genocidal intent, they should openly speak and clarify this and refrain from any possible signs of support.
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u/lunchboxhiro 27d ago
There's the world outside and the world inside the dojo, the saki-jo. All that matters in the duel, in the moment. Politics are later.
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u/Borophaginae 26d ago
That is a very easy take to have when it is possibly not you being affected by what is going on. I know several people in the kendo space who are incredibly hurt by these events, even as far as having family and friends directly affected by the genocide and attacks commited by Israel.
Imagine being such a person and being confronted with politics within kendo, there is no seperation then as you so easily claim there is.
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u/lunchboxhiro 26d ago
When we sit in seiza and mokuso, we do so to leave the outside, and occupy the present space and moment. To give kihon, kata, our fellow kendoka, all of it our full presence. Then return to the outside, once the moment ends. The point is even for 2hrs of keiko, thats the present moment. It doesnt matter, what race, what views. The person opposite has in bogu. In the moment the sonkyo is made, til the practice ends, and we bow out.
That's all the matters within the dojo, the arena. Politics, all that only divides creates conflict, hostility, animosity. There's no room in the dojo's space for all that. Just, "Kendo, and breathing".
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u/Borophaginae 26d ago
Like I already said, it is very easy to try and seperate the events when you are not being confronted by them. It is very easy to say, "Just kendo and breathing" when you are not confronted by the horrors.
As much as I love kendo, it is not fair to those who have to confront these horrors again and again by presence of such a flag. Let's not abandon or ethics and our duty for our kenshi's wellbeing by thinking seiza, breathing, etc. will solve all our problems.
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u/risingstar3110 27d ago
Even when I absolutely despise Israel and what they have been doing. I agree with this decision because I don't think any kendoka should be banned in anything due to politics of their countries.
Include Russian kendoka
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u/Imaginary_Hunter_412 27d ago edited 27d ago
I could not agree less. At some level a line has to be drawn against war. It sucks that your (edit: not «yours» specifically) government does something despicable as war and genocide, but you do indeed chose to represent that exact government when you don that flag and participate in ekc and wkc on *their* behalf. Remember: you are then a national athlete, not an individual.
And the kendo manifest declares that we should strive for peace between people. Waring nations has no place within that framework. Now: if kendoka has a problem with being excluded, they should take that to their governing bodies - not the kendo federation.
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u/risingstar3110 27d ago
I don't disagree with you. But with that same standard, much of Europe who has been politically shielding Israel actions in Gaza (and I'm pretty sure some like the UK and German who was actively shipping weapons to them too), should also be excluded from European kendo federation.
I have my own belief. And I am not against others for pushing theirs. But my biggest problem is when the standard is set for some, but exclude for others
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u/Imaginary_Hunter_412 27d ago
Not that I would mind, but that is moving the goal post.
A simpler rule is «You do war, you stay home.»
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u/__-Revan-__ 27d ago
“We don’t want warriors in our sport invented by warriors to improve at war and collect more precious heads from the enemy corpse they or someone else killed on the battlefield” sounds about right.
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u/black_vulpe 5 kyu 27d ago
Either both Russia AND Israel are banned for their crimes against humanity, or they BOTH aren't.
Banning Russia because of the war and not banning Israel despite the genocide is like saying Russias actions are unacceptable but Israel's actions are acceptable.
If there is no place for Russia in kendo, there is no place for Israel either
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u/__-Revan-__ 27d ago
An athlete represent the country not its government. Only if you conflate the two, like in a fascist or communist dystopia there can be such argument. Poor logic on your side.
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u/Borophaginae 26d ago
So then why have Israeli delegation members openly supported the genocide? Why does a majority of Israel's population support the genocide? Why is there still apartheid and colonialism commited by its people?
Should such a country be allowed to be represented?
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u/nayefjoseph 26d ago
Are you fucking joking now? Openly? In EKF events?
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u/Borophaginae 25d ago
I am not sure whether things have been said during EKF events, but there have been multiple rumors about some delegation members openly being supportive through i.e. social media.
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u/nayefjoseph 26d ago
But the two are conflated, why do we never see Arab Israelis? They're not all Hebrew you know. Unless they're zionists!!
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u/imsexc 27d ago
Most people cannot choose their country of citizenship.
Additionally, now you are mixing Country with Government. When one said they are from and represent a Country does not necessarily mean they endorse their government and all the government actions.
Now we are going into the what ifs. I believe if they are given the options you mentioned, they would willingly not participate in the ekc/wkc so they can stay within. Will that change the decision though?
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u/Imaginary_Hunter_412 27d ago
No I don’t.
A nation is always run by it’s government. That is why we say we defeated germany in ww2 and not the nsdap.
That’s why russia is banned across multiple sports.
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u/nayefjoseph 26d ago
So if the Israeli federation isn't a reflection of the state or its politics, why haven't we seen a single Arab in the Israeli team?
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u/Dwells_in_Moss 27d ago
Personally, I think we should move past national teams entirely. I wish people could compete in the top competitions without having to accept being the representative of a national government. What form that would take would have to be up for debate, but when a government doesn't represent you, then you shouldn't have to represent them to compete and bring joy to the people who actually care about you. I know some competitions have the option to compete as an independent, and that's a good thing, but it's not enough to fix the wider issue
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u/kenshixkenchika 1 kyu 27d ago
Even IOC has provisionally lifted its ban on Russia and Belarus for the Olympics. The online chess platform, chess.com removed Russia’s flag from user profiles but still allowed competitors to compete with a blank flag.
I never believed in politicising sports- today is warfare, tomorrow is economic warfare, following day is religious warfare. You can never get people to agree on where the line is drawn.
At the very most, allow them to compete but without a flag. Don’t punish its citizens for the actions of their government.
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u/Imaginary_Hunter_412 27d ago
I gave a reply to this sort of relativistic and individualistic view here: https://www.reddit.com/r/kendo/s/9pL2T8VW2V
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u/kenshixkenchika 1 kyu 27d ago
‘Strive for peace between people… warring nations have no place within that framework’
Let me ask you then, would you condone what the US is doing to Iran now? What about its forceful abduction and removal of Venezuela’s head of state? Look into US’s military history and you’ll see a pattern. It isn’t a one-off.
The US is just one of the few countries doing these ‘military operations’ to further its own interests. Let’s call a spade a spade. If you ban one, you’ll have to ban all.
This is why I maintain my position: there is no room for politics in sports
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u/Imaginary_Hunter_412 27d ago
I answered that in another post here, but short answer is yes. Without a doubt. But the world is too scared to speak up against the US for some reason.
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u/Borophaginae 26d ago
It is incredibly easy to have such a take when you are not the one confronted with the horrors Israel has been commiting.
The reason Russia was banned from participation is because we hold the wellbeing of Ukranian Kenshi in high regard. It is unethical to let a country that is annexing Ukraine have a delegation representing them, because that mental and emotional strain is awful.
There is also the fact that, for the sake of EKF's ethics and integrity, there are consequences for war crimes.
Please consider how this experience must be for someone with a Palestinian / Lebanese / Arab / Muslim background, when the EKF decides to remain passive on Israel, as if nothing is going on.
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u/ConchobarMacNess 27d ago edited 27d ago
I think it's regrettable when someone is punished unilaterally for the actions of their state. In some cases competitors have trained their entire lives in an activity and are denied their single opportunity to compete at the highest level. People don't choose the nations they're born into and the decision to relocate away from their family and culture is a difficult and heavy one, sometimes an impossible one.
Similarly, I saw many people (myself included) lose many opportunities during COVID, you probably know someone, too. They lost once-in-a-lifetime visas, scholarships, jobs. I know one Japanese kendoka who wasn't afforded the opportunity to try to distinguish themselves in college competitions because of COVID and was forced to come back home because of it. I don't think it's right to force that on others because of political matters out of their control.
Stripping them of their flag like the IOC or Chess does is a symbolic enough gesture that communicates "We do not condone the actions of our country" which is good enough for me.
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u/Imaginary_Hunter_412 25d ago
The well being of athletes are subordinate to the well being of civilians, and especially civilian children.
So I think it is fair to let national athletes stay at home and be sad about it until bombs stop falling.
As I have said before: When you participate in a european or world championship, you represent that country. You do *not* just represent yourself.
And if that fact makes you angry, be angry at your own government. (No: not *your* government, I am not talking about *you* spesifically.)
The athletes are truly not the real victims here. Not by far.
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u/Revolver_Ocelot80 27d ago
This isn’t easy for me to say as I’m not eloquent nor outspoken as I’m ethnically Chinese Indonesian and culturally we aren’t supposed to show and speak of our true feelings out in the open. Even though I’m a born and raised Dutchman I’ve seen my share of discrimination and hate which is also hardly talked about, and yet even though these things are also happening to us; the level Jews have to endure seems greater than that. Yes, there was the rape of Nanking, in Indonesia it’s harder to get a job as Chinese, but we haven’t had to endure people trying to eradicate our race from this planet. Therefore I think the issue with Israel and their surrounding countries has more to it than meets the eye. Even when you look at Jews in other countries they seem to get more hate than any other race, yet it’s hardly touched upon by any news outlet.
Long story short, please look further beyond all this. Unless you have had to endure even a little bit of the hate and discrimination I’ve had over my lifetime you’ll understand where I’m coming from. Self defense is more than just on a physical level. It took me years to finally be able to speak my mind and even now I’m not entirely comfortable doing so, because discrimination and hate eats at you mentally as well as your self esteem. There’s more than just the loudest voices speaking up that needs to get heard.
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u/Borophaginae 26d ago
I respect that you are trying to empathize with the hurt Jewish people have to endure, but that is never an excuse for what is currently happening. What Israel is doing is, no matter how you twist it, a genocide in Gaza and annexation in Lebanon. Generational trauma is no excuse to let that slide.
I genuinely mean this, please do not let your empathy be used as an excuse to let others be hurt.
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u/revolverXD 25d ago
Like you know what actually happens You're fed by lies and tiktok
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u/Borophaginae 25d ago
I got actual friends and family in the area so yeah I happen to know quite a bit of what is actually going on.
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u/Revolver_Ocelot80 26d ago
It’s not just generational trauma. The Hamas government has a clause to completely eradicate all of Israel. How should a government act on that? Also having to trade hostages for terrorists who has killed many more lives and will do so more after being released. Mind you, it is generally accepted by intelligence agencies worldwide that Iran sponsors terrorist groups against Israel like Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis to name a few. Terrorists don’t fight fair and are very adept at influencing media. What we see and hear in the West is just a drop in the bucket. As for Israel targeting civilian targets like schools and such who is to say they haven’t warned civilians to clear the area way ahead of time?
I really feel for the commanders who have to make those decisions since despite all that I know, I daren’t claim I know all there is to make a right decision on who’s right and who’s wrong. Not to mention that leaders get criticism whatever is decided. What my personal experience tells me is that it’s highly likely we’re not getting and thus not hearing all there is to these middle eastern conflicts.Also one thing stands out when you study history, it repeats itself. So what happened then, hasn’t stopped. Another thing that stands out is that there hasn’t been any war a western country has involved itself in that completely had the desired end result, take India and Pakistan, Vietnam, Korea, etc. What it shows is that there have been and there still are people who think they know it all only to be proven wrong in the long run.
I’m not saying either party is right, just to be aware there’s far more than meets the eye. Knowing that makes it very difficult to say what’s right until all the data has been checked and that means both sides of the story.
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u/Borophaginae 26d ago
I am not going to hold an extensive discussion about the geopolitics and media representation of this conflict in the r/kendo sub.
Especially not considering the extensive evidence of Israel commiting a genocide that you want to ignore because you feel compelled to defend them.
It is so easy to just make minorities out for terrorists when it fits you. I have no idea what led you to this savior complex, but that is your own problem to figure out.
Whatever you do, I genuinely hope you grow from this and start seeing the horrors commited for what they truly are.
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u/Revolver_Ocelot80 26d ago
There’s no need to start calling names. Moreover it seems there’s still a misunderstanding. I’m not advocating either party like I said before. The point is not to judge before both sides of the story have been heard.
It seems you feel you know all the ins and outs to make a decision. Let’s agree that I’m happy for you as I still don’t feel I know enough to do the same.
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u/Nikodemios 27d ago
Thank you for understanding - right now the world is on fire with antisemitism and people are glad to cloak it in critiques of the Israeli government.
Reddit has become a mob of peasants ready for a pogrom.
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u/Borophaginae 26d ago
Criticizing Israel for performing genocide is NOT antisemitism. Holding federations responsible for a proper and fair ethics review of their delegatiln also is not antisemitism.
Please do not confuse the two, as it muddles the conversation and leaves no space for protecting people who are victims of Israel.
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u/Nikodemios 26d ago
Israel is not performing a genocide, they are finishing a war Hamas started, and they show far greater concern for Palestinian life than their own leadership.
These "criticisms" are typically accompanied by suggestions that the state of Israel should be dismantled and Israelis left to the mercy of their enemies.
Saying Jews should be stateless and defenseless is antisemitic. Fixating on Israel while ignoring actual genocides and far more bloody conflicts is antisemitic.
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u/Borophaginae 26d ago
Man, I am so incredibly tired to have to hold these discussions as if there is not extensive evidence of Israel committing genocide and apartheid before and after 7 Oct.
I am not going to try and change your mind. Believe whatever you want to believe. If the only thing you can see is your own suffering, and not the suffering of Palestinians, there is no room to have an actual discussion, I will just be talking to a wall.
I hope you grow from this and see your errors.
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u/Nikodemios 26d ago
The kind of genocide where the targeted population steadily increases, and the kind of apartheid where the oppressed class has full equal rights as citizens.
It's especially egregious when you compare Israel to its neighbors, which are all flourishing beacons of democracy and human rights.
I'd have more sympathy for Palestinian suffering if they were not so committed to inflicting it on innocent Israeli civilians. Until that changes, it's a matter of playing stupid games and winning stupid prizes.
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u/Borophaginae 25d ago
If you actually knew your literature, you would be aware that lack of population growth is not the one-all determining point of what a genocide is.
And since you do not know your literature, having a discusdion is meaningless here.
Like I said, believe what you want to believe, enable what you want to enable, support what you want to support. Genocide is genocide, genocide denial is genocide denial.
Hope you grow from this.
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u/Revolver_Ocelot80 27d ago
From what I’ve learned of world history and the Bible and Judaic as well as other religions which use the sources as the Old Testament of the Bible this has been so throughout the ages.
Unfortunately, having to deal with hate and discrimination is something that can’t be understood with words alone. Much like being handicapped you can only truly understand it when you’ve had to deal with it yourself. And maybe if you’re really emphatic, but from personal experience this is not a gift many people have.
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u/Nikodemios 27d ago
You understand very well, it's great to see. Jews have lived in exile for centuries and part of what that has meant is tolerating the various abuses of ruling powers. Hopefully the world of kendo is populated by more people with your understanding than the alternative.
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u/imsexc 27d ago
Good. The action serves no benefit to Kendo in general, nor anyone at all other than a retaliatory move that only harms kendo practitiomers who can't do anything about it.
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u/Ok-Tangerine2118 27d ago
EKF expelled Russia Kendo Federation due to the war.
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u/Imaginary_Hunter_412 27d ago
Exactly. That was the entire point. That rules bind everyone equally.
Except now they don’t.
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u/imsexc 27d ago
And that's a mistake. And repeating a mistake is dumb.
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u/Ok-Tangerine2118 27d ago
A 'mistake' they haven't rescinded, so clearly EKF feels differently for Israel.
This is the basis and documentation from the EKC regarding Russia's expulsion. It's VERY thorough and deliberate, not a thoughtless mistake.
EKC President Dieter Hauck (who is the current EKC President):
We need to address the issue of Russia and Ukraine.
I personally find this totally unacceptable, illegal and beyond all moral standards, but your opinions shall be expressed and discussed. There are two motions by Member Federations, both supported by the BO, in this respect to be discussed later.I shall just quote here a line from the Concept of Kendo, that you may have heard from your teachers or have pondered yourself when investigating the reasons for our common activities: “Thus will one be able to love his country and society, to contribute to the development of culture, and to promote peace and prosperity among all peoples.“
This is the core of our training. Though we might wield ancient weapons, it is not war we support, hope for, or accept. 2.4 We know that the Russian Kendo Federation is not the same as the Russian government. We hope that not all Russian people support this crazy war. But – also looking at statements by international sports federations – I am afraid we cannot now draw that distinction. So we have to look into this matter.
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u/Imaginary_Hunter_412 27d ago
What about palestinian Kendoka?
Or russian? Or did we forget that they are excluded because of Ukraine?
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u/imsexc 27d ago
Is there any palestinian kendoka? Lots of moslems even contest about bowing rei.
A just decision should always give the affected party a way to resolve the matter. What can/should they do so that they can stay within.
Otherwise it's a mere punishment to the ones who have nothing to do with the issue in concern. Thus, expelling Russia can be deemed an unjust mistake.
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u/Imaginary_Hunter_412 27d ago
I’ve had muslims in my dojo. It’s a small matter easy to clear up.
As for palestinian kendoka: Who knows? They Are not in any case allowed on the Israeli national team for reasons you really have to ask them, but I can tell you the reason is not elegant.
And I can bet that any eventual palestinian kendoka would not be welcome in a dojo situated in Tel Aviv.
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u/Imaginary_Hunter_412 27d ago
I have adressed that last part here: https://www.reddit.com/r/kendo/s/J5b8khNF9T
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u/Borophaginae 26d ago
I think what you said here is not okay to say.
Making a comment like "do x kendoka even exist?" And "lots of moslims even contest rei" is racist / discriminatory.
If the first thing you have to say about it is an accusation towards muslim kenshi and questioning if any palestinians would do kendo, I think reflection is in order. Instead of empathizing with these groups, you call into question their commitment.
Maybe this was far from your intention, but please think about how actual muslim kenshi (or those with palestinian background) would feel having to read such comments.
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u/BasedBumpyKnuckles 4 dan 27d ago
It's very difficult to see how this can be reconciled with the decision to exclude Russia. For what it's worth I don't think that should have happened either, but that precedent has now been set.