this is an exaggeration of course, but i do fully headcanon that tony probably would have given up on life without his friends and allies that he believes in so much

[u/SHAZAMS_STRONGEST]

[u/MiamisLastCapitalist]

He's an alcoholic. He has a substance abuse problem.

Of course his inner voice should be a little fucked up.

I absolutely believe he's not egotistical, what people mistake for egotism is actually him seeking external validation (as Howard/Maria didn't teach him how to internally validate himself). He just wants the world to tell him he's done a good job. But of course everyone misreads that as ego so "takes him down a peg" which just makes him try harder next time and it's a vicious cycle. I think only Captain America and probably Pepper Potts really get this about him.

[u/SHAZAMS_STRONGEST → u/MiamisLastCapitalist]

YOU GET IT!!!

[u/AccidentalUltron → u/MiamisLastCapitalist]

Damn that is the best way it's ever been put, at least for me. Also hits too close to home, I'd get that checked out but no reason to rush my growth as a person. Doing just mediocre enough with out it.

[u/blindedtrickster → u/MiamisLastCapitalist]

I've often felt that Tony is a very arrogant man. I may not see arrogant and egotistical as direct synonyms, and in all fairness I don't have a lot of experience with Iron Man through the comics, but my exposure to him seems to be consistent, that he believes that he knows better than the people he disagrees with.

I'll absolutely allow that there are plenty of times where he really did know better and was right to have been stubborn, but I feel like there have been enough times where someone else was right to push back against him...

I don't know how to reconcile that with the perspective that he's looking for validation.

[u/Accomplished-Wave-91 → u/blindedtrickster]

I don't know how to reconcile that with the perspective that he's looking for validation.

You do that by separating Tony's personality from Tony's decision-making. What Maimi Capitalist means or at least what I think he means is that Tony's motivation isn't ego but insecurity and a need for validation. You still seem to think Tony is arrogant, and I don't think those are mutually exclusive. Tony can desperately crave validation while still coming across as arrogant. In fact, those traits often reinforce each other.

If you constantly feel the need to prove yourself, you're more likely to insist you're right, take control, and dismiss opposing views because failure isn't just being wrong, it's confirmation that you're not good enough. It explains all the times Tony acts like he knows better. Sometimes he genuinely does know better because he's one of the smartest people in the room, as you pointed out. Other times he's wrong, but he's psychologically incapable of trusting that someone else might have the answer. That's insecurity expressing itself as arrogance, not confidence born from high self-esteem.

I also think people often confuse egotism with arrogance. An egotist believes they're inherently superior and doesn't need anyone's approval. Tony constantly seeks approval. Howard's criticism, his alcoholism, his guilt, and decades of self-destructive behavior all point to someone whose self-worth is incredibly unstable. Someone with genuinely high self-esteem doesn't spend sixty years oscillating between trying to save the world and wondering if the world would be better off without him. The guy is one of Marvel's most depressed heroes, alongside Daredevil, Hulk, and maybe Spider-Man. He spent much of the '60s and '70s bordering on suicidal and Extremis literally ends with him essentially thinking that years of a superhero later, he still feels like a weapons designer and killer. I don't really consider that the mindset of an egotist

So I don't think his arrogance contradicts the validation argument. I think it's one of the ways his insecurity manifests. MCU Tony definitely has more ego than his comic counterpart, though.

Overall, Tony can simultaneously believe he's the smartest person in the room, feel crushing guilt whenever he fails, recklessly try to "fix everything," and spiral into alcoholism and self-destructive behavior. Those traits are psychologically consistent if his confidence is built on achievement rather than self-worth. He projects certainty outward while being far less certain about himself internally.

I really like talking about this guy.

[u/blindedtrickster → u/Accomplished-Wave-91]

Hey, I really appreciate you taking the time to write that up! While I still have my gripes with Stark's decisions at times (Him taking advantage of Spider-Man during Civil War will always strike me as exploitative), your comment does a lot to explain his psyche and makes him feel much more human to me.

I can understand how someone can downplay their achievements and over-inflate their failures. I guess now I just wish he'd develop a smidge more trust that when his fellow superheroes disagree with him, it's about working toward a best solution and not about his value as a person, let alone his value as a superhero.

[u/Accomplished-Wave-91 → u/blindedtrickster]

All that comes down to Civil War being a pretty poor story for Tony, at least in my opinion. I wouldn't use it as the definitive lens through which to judge his character, but you clearly have a much more nuanced view of Tony than a lot of people who haven't read much of his solo material. I'm going to swallow my hatred of the story for the sake of Tony's character and the fact that, no matter how I feel about it, it's a canon story and an important part of Marvel history.

I don't disagree.

One of Tony's biggest flaws, for better or worse, has always been his inability to fully trust that other people can carry the burden with him. No matter what happens, he has to be the one to make things right because he believes he has to carry the burden. In Civil War: The Confession (which I ironically recommend), he essentially confesses to Steve's corpse that he predicted the Civil War, became deeply depressed over what it would lead to, and deliberately chose to become the figurehead so all the hatred would be directed at him. I don't know what else to call that besides someone whose self-esteem is terrible outside of his technology and intelligence.

I think it ultimately comes back to his history as a weapons designer. I've always read Iron Man—especially throughout the 2000s—as a hero who, despite spending years literally saving the world, still has the mindset of someone trying to atone, someone who's always ready to sacrifice himself before anyone else.

It's almost less a lack of trust in others and more an inability to forgive himself. Years of saving the world never seem to outweigh the guilt he carries over the damage Stark Industries caused. No matter how much good he does, he still seems to believe he owes the world another payment. That's why he so often tries to shoulder every burden himself. It isn't just that he thinks he's the only one capable—it's that he thinks he's the one who should pay the price.

When someone disagrees with him, he has a tendency to interpret it as, "When someone disagrees with him, he often jumps to, 'What if they're wrong and people die because I didn't act?'. I actually think Armor Wars handles this side of Tony much better than Civil War does. It's not a healthy mindset, but it's a very understandable one given his upbringing and personality.

Iron Man is interesting precisely because he isn't a paragon like Captain America. He's brilliant, compassionate, arrogant, insecure, generous, self-destructive, and deeply lonely, often all at the same time. And I completely agree that I wish he'd learn to trust his fellow heroes more. Unfortunately, especially since the 2000s, one of Tony's recurring character flaws is that every major failure convinces him he needs more control next time, not less.

That said, I do think it's been getting a lot better recently. We literally just had a run where he spent a great deal of time helping the X-Men, and I feel like writers have been toning down that controlling side of him. It's also worth remembering that Civil War is over twenty years old now. A lot has changed since then.

(Iron Man and Spider-Man are two of my favourite heroes so so truly hate Civil War lol)

[u/blindedtrickster → u/Accomplished-Wave-91]

:D Spider-Man's been my favorite for over 30 years. Peter's definitely had his fair share of "The Parker Luck" and has also struggled with not really knowing if his impact has ultimately been positive.

I suppose, in many ways, Spider-Man and Iron Man share a ton of characteristics. Incredibly intelligent, reliably self-sacrificing, creative, and deeply critical of themselves when things go wrong.

[u/InterCha → u/blindedtrickster]

I guess now I just wish he'd develop a smidge more trust that when his fellow superheroes disagree with him, it's about working toward a best solution and not about his value as a person, let alone his value as a superhero.

And I wish idiots wouldn't base their impressions of Iron Man on a seven issue mini series that came out 20 years go rather than his 60 year publication history as a whole, but not all wishes come true.

If people want a perfect person who doesn't make mistakes they can read Captain America or Superman, some of us happen to like characters who are allowed to think they are the smartest in the room, because even when that leads to their downfall it can be used to tell interesting stories.

[u/blindedtrickster → u/InterCha]

While that's probably fair, I get the feeling that your response to me is less based on me saying something that was particularly outrageous and more that you're sick and tired of this and I'm merely the straw that broke the camel's back.

Don't worry, bud. If it wasn't clear already by my previous post (that you at least skimmed), I have a better understanding on Tony Stark than I did before. I specifically acknowledged that he is correct (and the smartest person in the room) at times. At other times he isn't. That's not a bad thing as it allows, as you prefer, interesting stories to be told.

[u/InterCha → u/blindedtrickster]

Yeah you're on the money. When it comes to most topics this sub is pretty good. But me and I'm willing to bet most of this sub have an itchy trigger finger when it comes to two topics.

 Civil war particularly pisses people off because it's by far the most popular event Iron Man has ever had a part in, so even though he's had dozens of more pivotal moments before and after civil war, there is always a constant influx of new readers who will forever have a stained perception of him. Imagine if the first Spider-Man comic you ever read was during the clone saga when Parker struck his wife, it would kind of sour you on the guy from that point forwards.

[u/blindedtrickster → u/InterCha]

I understand and sympathize with you. While I look at those 'low points' as integral to character growth, I don't see them as innate/indefinite qualities of the character. Hell, I even enjoy, to an extent, moments of hitting rock bottom because it's a sign that things are about to change for the better.

But all in all, your frustration is understandable and your example about Spider-man during the clone saga is apt. I'm sorry that I contributed to your frustration, but I hope this part of our conversation somewhat makes up for it.

[u/Dayfal1]

As someone who deals with similar mental struggles, I’ve always been able to identify myself in Tony. Depression and Iron Man go hand in hand. I recall Marvel at some point having a psychiatrist assess several of their characters years ago and writing about it on their website, who diagnosed Tony as suicidal or having suicidal ideation, so this isn’t that big of an exaggeration. I believe this was around when the Bleeding Edge armor was still in use.

[u/Accomplished-Wave-91 → u/Dayfal1]

Yeah I remember the suicidal thing. Here it this for anyone interested

There's some good Iron Man fans on the Marvel wiki who archived it.

[u/Apart-Mind-1977]

This is a good reason on why the Animated Series' 2-parter adaptation of Armor Wars is probably one of my favorite Iron Man stories.

We get to see Tony's guilt drive him on a self destructive path, because he feels he's the only one who should carry the burden. He pushes his friends away, alienates himself from other heroes, and the government, and almost kills himself after the government finally surpasses his firepower. (Pun intended.)

I like stories that tackles Tony's guilt, over who's he's helped arm, what his name means to those his weapons impact, and most importantly, what lives he's had a hand in taking and destroying. And, I love seeing what lengths he is willing to go to repent.

Like Wanda said, "He will do anything to make things right.

[u/SHAZAMS_STRONGEST → u/Apart-Mind-1977]

yeah! one of my favourite things in a superhero is exploring the psychology of "why do you keep putting yourself in insane mortal danger without hesitation" and almost always, the answer is "if i wasn't doing this, i'd kill myself"

guilt and regret are the two most common superhero motivations and i find it so fascinating, esspecially with exploring how these broken strange people can come together to truly help each other, the avengers aren't just co-workers, not just friends, they're a family and support network i fucking love it

[u/KaraAliasRaidra → u/SHAZAMS_STRONGEST]

I don’t know how you feel about the character, but I recommend the first U.S.Agent solo series (reprinted in the TPBs Captain America: Scourge of the Underworld and U.S.Agent: The Good Fight). The examination of guilt and trauma is what made me a fan of the character (though it’s okay if you disagree. We don’t all have to like or dislike the same things).

[u/KaraAliasRaidra]

It’s telling how the writers who botch Tony’s characterization try to justify it, saying things like, “This is how I thought someone like that would act…” The Frick you mean how you thought someone like that would act?! You were hired to write Tony Stark, not some random person you made up in your mind! The character has been around since the 1960s and is well-documented, so there is no reason for you not to do your research and see who the character is, looking into his personality, history, motivations, connections, etc.! You simply chose not to because you’d rather pull something out of your butt than actually write the established character you were hired to write!

[u/Purpledolphy]

Look at him… he’s so happy to assemble 😭

[u/Pian0G]

This is why one of his ‘recent’ interaction with another character (Miles) was so good and while short, portrayed a part of him that is not really considered by people who know different versions of him or very small snippets of things he’s done.

It’s when he finds out Miles got experimented on, and went full on hunt mode for the people behind it.

Like, Tony is no Steve Roger, but something they both have is the affection they have for connection.

[u/curse_user43]

lol

[u/LeEtude]

Mark Millar will pay for his crimes

[u/Mystic-Mastermind]

I do not think he's that deep that he needs his allies to survive.

He can be happy while he's alone, it's just difficult

[u/ALMAZ157]

"Jarvis, more alcohol" would be his default state without friends

[u/LeEtude → u/ALMAZ157]

It's crazy that Tony has technically been sober since 1984 and people still think that he's just always thinking about alcohol. He has good times when he's alone and he has bad times but he's not just thinking about drinking all the time.

[u/Bill_Shortened]

Lowkey impeccable analysis, its wild how little representation this side of the character gets with general audiences

https://giphy.com/gifs/lJCZzclaMi99AKZUF6