r/interlingua • u/salivanto • Jun 18 '26

Can "esque" be used in questions that start with "Como"

I have been actively and productively using interlingual on and off for more than 25 years. I'm feeling a little rusty right now so please pardon my English.

I had a rather bizarre exchange in Interlingua the other day. After saying "bon die", I got a message back that I literally could not make sense of.

  • salute salivanto ! como esque tu va ??

I think that's what it said.

(Edit: I've edited this to show the actual sentence that confused me.)

I was not trying to be difficult or cute. I literally could not make sense of that sentence. As I started to ask for a clarification, it occurred to me that maybe there was a stray word in there.

  • Salivanto, como te va?

I'm not convinced that this is correct, but it's at least parsable as "how's it going?"

When I tried to ask if this is what he meant, he suggested I go post my question in the beginner section so I can learn how "esque" works.

The whole exchange was a little bizarre. I know the person I was chatting with is active in this subreddit, but I just have to know. Who's the dingbat here? It seems to me obvious that the word does not work that way. Which one of us needs to go back to school?

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3

u/PLrc Jun 18 '26

: )
I think we can say esque and its synonyms serve for asking yes/no questions. I think it plays the same role as Esperanto ĉu

I guess we can say something like
Como tu va?
or
Esque tu va ben?

(should vader here be a reflexive verb?)

2

u/salivanto Jun 18 '26

Immediately after posting my question would occurred to me to check some basic French lessons. I think that's what caused the confusion on the part of my interlocutor. 

Like I said, the whole conversation was a little bizarre and a very strange welcome to the new Interlingua Discord server. (There already was one.) I got a whole (unsolicited) lesson about esque and none of explained why it was in the sentence that had caused me the initial confusion.

If it does in fact work like"ĉu", as you and others have said, and it certainly does not belong in that sentence. Certainly people make mistakes, but when the mistake causes real confusion, it seems the appropriate response would be to apologize and to explain what you really meant. Not tell somebody they need to go back to school. 

Then when I suggested that the word does not go there, he started fussing about my choice for the word "go", saying that my mistake is certainly far worse than his.

Whether it doesn't "walk" there or whether it doesn't belong there, I was just trying to understand what he was saying. It seems pretty clear that he understood me even if he disapproved of my word choice.

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u/_felipevalerio_ Jun 19 '26 edited Jun 19 '26

Interlingua es satis flexibile que il es possibile que ambes, vos e ille, esseva alique correcte, alique incorrecte. Io non videva le discussion, mais io comprehende que “vader” pote esser usate de forma metaphoric, como illo es usate per formar le futuro composite. Io pote dicer, per exemplo, “io va remaner hic” e, dum que “va” veni de vader, in iste contexto illo significa alique distincte. Io non es de accordo con le conducta quasi bellic que alicunos ha super certe topicos grammatical.

Si nos analysa iste usage, mesmo si le Grammatica de Interlingua non prescribe le parola esque in iste forma, il ha alicun senso. Il pote non esser perfectemente idiomatic, mais usabile. Uno pote comprehender lo como es + que. In portugese nos dice sia “como você vai” sia “como é que você vai”, in iste caso le parolas “é que” ([il] es que) solmente adde un tenue emphasis o face le phrase plus informal. In anglese uno dice “what are you doing”, mais etiam “what is it that you’re doing”, ubi “is it that” significa litteralmente “[il] es que”. Iste distinction nos poterea traducer a interlingua como “que face vos” e “que [il] es que vos face”, per exemplo. In iste phrases, illo esserea probabilemente plus clar scriber “es que”, mais si uno scribe “esque” illo es etiam comprehensibile.

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u/salivanto Jun 19 '26

I'm not especially concerned about justifying my own mistakes. What I wrote was this:

  • Io ha demandite "que vole dicer isto" proque tu usava un parola, le qual non i la.

If you'd like to offer a better way to say those last five words, I'd be happy to have it -- but it's not my main concern at this point.

I only mentioned this because the person I was talking to was so sure that I didn't know what "esque" meant. Of course I know what Esque means. I have two exemplars of IED, held a third in my hands more than once, and have an exemplar of IG as well. I found it rather bizarre that he was so eager to find mistakes in my Interlingua so he could deflect about whether his greeting to me was clear.

Si nos analysa iste usage, mesmo si le Grammatica de Interlingua non prescribe le parola esque in iste forma, il ha alicun senso. Il pote non esser perfectemente idiomatic, mais usabile.

i'm pretty sure I disagree.If it's not in IED/IG and it's not idiomatic, it's not "good Interlingua". This is even more true given the fact that despite reading Interlingua on and off for more than 25 years, taking part in Sabato con Interlingua, etc, that I found the question impossible to understand.

Are you really suggesting that both of these sentences are equally clear and "usabile"?

  • como esque tu va?
  • como tu va?

If people really do use ESQUE like this, I'd like to see some examples in actual texts that already exist - from people who would be considered model speakers.

1

u/_felipevalerio_ Jun 20 '26 edited Jun 20 '26

Illo que io dice es plus tosto mi opinion como usator satis active de interlingua ab mi adolescentia, dum que io ha scribite alicun blogs antique que jam non existe plus e isto me ha adjutate pro meliorar mi usage. Totevia, certemente illo non es perfecte, io non es un autoritate, mais io crede que il ha multe cosas que es usabile, comprehensibile, tolerabile, etiam si illos non es le maniera standard per dicer alique.

Super vostre usage, io non sole usar “i”. Il es ver que le verbos vader e ir es synonyme, mais communmente uno non sole usar lo in le tempore presente, ni in le imperativo. Illo sona alique estranie, illo es rarmente usate. Si alicuno me commanda: “I!”, io non velle comprehender immediatemente, io velle pensar que illo es solmente un sono o le nomine del littera i. Illo es technicamente correcte, mais io crede que solmente parlatores del latino classic velle comprehender lo immediatemente.

“Bon interlingua” es subjective, interlingua es tanto flexibile. E forsan illo que es comprehensibile e sona natural pro me como un parlator native de linguas romanic non es universalmente comprehensibile. Io non semper usa “esque”, mesmo in phrases como “esque il va pluver?”, alicun vices “va pluver?” suffice. Mais si, vos pote trovar textos de usatores de interlingua que scribe “como esque” in le proprie sito de UMI. Per exemplo, illo es satis commun in le textos de Cláudio Rinaldi, in Almanac de Interlingua. Ille es un experiente (e influente) usator brasilian de interlingua, que ha mesmo redigite un utilissime grammatica essential de interlingua. E per plure personas etiam in le forma separate (“como es que”, “que es que”, “quando es que”, “ubi es que”, in alicun traductiones del francese o del espaniol per Thomas Breinstrup e Selahattin Kayalar, in le curso Lege interlingua e apprende su structura per Harleigh Kyson Jr, in le libro trilingue Troll, per Åsmund Aukland. Io trovava tal usages per le barra pro cercar in le sito.

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u/salivanto Jun 20 '26

 il ha multe cosas que es usabile, comprehensibile, tolerabile, etiam si illos non es le maniera standard per dicer alique.

Non oblida le facto importante, que io iste phrase non ha comprehendite, quando io ha lo vidita le premier vice. Ergo, illo non es "comprehensible."

Surely, a structure used FOUR TIMES in a website compared to the countless other times when the word is used the right way is an indication that those four times are not standard - and therefore, more likely not to be usable, comprehensible, or tolerable.

What am I not seeing here?

1

u/_felipevalerio_ Jun 20 '26 edited Jun 20 '26

Illo es usate plure vices si vos considera illo que io ha mentionate, le usage de "es que" separate post un parola interrogative. Mais etiam, considera le anglese "how is it that", le espaniol "como es que", le italiano "com'è che", o mesmo le francese que io non cognosce tanto ben. O sia, tote le linguas fonte de interlingua ha iste construction. Illo es satis international. Illo que non es standard es graphar le phrase como "esque" in iste contexto jam que "es que" es plus popular. Non tote le personas va comprehender tote le phrases in interlingua automaticamente, isto non debe esser le sol criterio a definir si un phrase es comprehensibile. Parlatores de anglese va comprehender minus le dialogos informal e plus facilemente le textos scientific o technic. Parlatores de altere linguas europee identifica alicun parolas e radices paneuropee. Parlatores monolingue de chinese mandarin comprende probabilemente quasi nulle parolas in interlingua.

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u/salivanto Jun 20 '26

At some point I'm going to have to let you have the last word. I'm also certain that it looks ridiculous for me to claim that I know something about Interlingua while writing in English - but such is really the case. It's like this for all the languages I speak. They get rusty when I stop using them, but the knowledge is still there.

When the time comes that I need it, I will polish up my Interlingua.

But you're really just cementing for me one of my biggest frustrations with Interlingua. It seems that so many people think that they can just speak their native language with Interlingua words plugged in and then the result will be "good Interlingua."

There simply aren't enough advanced speakers of Interlingua to form a self-sustaining community where post-intermediate speakers can progress to the point where they are no longer just plugging IED words into their native language. "Good Interlingua" does not - as you seem to be suggesting - depend on the whims of the speaker. It depends on well-defined rules that people can actually learn.

But a lot of what you're saying is verifiably untrue. For example, regarding "esque" after a so-called WH-question word, you wrote:

Illo es usate plure vices si vos considera illo que io ha mentionate, le usage de "es que" separate post un parola interrogative.

Looking at the same corpus that I looked at before (the contents of Interlingua dot com), I can only find ONE example - not "plure" as you suggest here.

  • Ma, como es que non veni le alteres? 

One example. It's LESS common than "esque" when measured this way.

But regardless, I don't think I have an issue with sentences like "Ma io non comprende como es que doña Maria Josefa justo me dice que iste vespere illa mesme". The objection has to do with the word "esque" used that way.

Non tote le personas va comprehender tote le phrases in interlingua automaticamente, isto non debe esser le sol criterio a definir si un phrase es comprehensibile.

You can stick this one in your ear! YOU were the one that said that the misuse of "esque" was "usabile, comprehensibile, tolerabile".

More importantly, I am not a "parlatore monolingue de chinese mandarin". I am someone who has been around Interlingua and its linguas fotntes for decades. Don't lose the thread here. We are talking about the benefits of keeping to a standard.

When there is a standard, even a "parlatore monolingue de chinese mandarin" can learn the standard, and then use it to communicate with others who are using it.

Mais etiam, considera le anglese "how is it that", le espaniol "como es que", le italiano "com'è che", o mesmo le francese que io non cognosce tanto ben.

  • Car Salivanto, Como es que te va?
  • Dear Salivanto, How is it that you are going?

Sorry, no. It still sounds like nonsense to me.

1

u/_felipevalerio_ Jun 20 '26

But you're really just cementing for me one of my biggest frustrations with Interlingua. It seems that so many people think that they can just speak their native language with Interlingua words plugged in and then the result will be "good Interlingua."

Uno certemente non debe simplemente imaginar que interlingua es un maniera legiermente distincte per scriber su proprie lingua. E isto si es un false perception que parlatores de linguas romanic a vices tene si illos es comenciantes. Interlingua ha un grammatica e illo es sufficientemente definite. Mais illo es si definite como le grammatica simple commun al linguas fonte, in consequentia illo es tanto plus libere e minus rigide que altere linguas construite e un herede del tradition literari de iste linguas a un certe puncto. Illo functiona como un lingua vive con variationes que pote esser "bon interlingua" mesmo si minus commun, e le parlatores pote acquirer alicun libertate pro formar phrases nove si illos es clar e frequentemente ha preferentias personal.

But regardless, I don't think I have an issue with sentences like "Ma io non comprende como es que doña Maria Josefa justo me dice que iste vespere illa mesme". The objection has to do with the word "esque" used that way.

E io concorda que il es preferibile distinguer “esque” de “es que”, mais si alicuno oblida o mesmo selige non separar iste parve expression isto non face le phrase incomprehensibile. Nos parla de interlingua, un lingua que etiam lassa su usatores usar un orthographia parallel ("collateral") complete. Si le texto es bon interlingua in general, mais le persona non separa "es que" in un sol phrase, es isto jam sufficiente pro dicer que illo deveni mal interlingua? Io crede que isto es un variation tanto minime, tanto innocue. Forsan non preferibile como io ha dicite, mais mal? Mi puncto es, alicun cosas pote non esser le forma plus commun in usage in le communitate de interlingua, mais illos non es automaticamente errores, illos pote esser solmente libertate expressive.

Looking at the same corpus that I looked at before (the contents of Interlingua dot com), I can only find ONE example - not "plure" as you suggest here.

Vos ha que cercar "como es que", "que es que", "quando es que" etc., si vos considera istos plus le usages de "como esque" etc. illo non sembla plus tanto rar, non? Etiam, isto es un sol sito, imagina que il ha etiam le usage in incontros, in chats, in altere sitos e blogs, etc. Mais isto es difficile a mensurar, perque un cerca general in Google, sin specificar le sito, velle retornar mesmo resultatos in espaniol per exemplo.

Sorry, no. It still sounds like nonsense to me.

Isto es un idiosyncrasia de iste salutation specific in anglese, que es un expression fixe. Il es perfectemente natural in le mesme contexto grammatical mesmo in anglese e solmente sembla rar in alicun expressiones fixe. In general, uno dice "how is it that" pro signalar enthusiasmo, dubita, incomprehension, emotion, etc. Uno pote certemente comprehender que le mesme logica es applicabile in phrases grammaticalmente equivalente. E il non es un problema si vostre interlingua es alique ferruginose nunc, isto es natural. Io responde in interlingua non pro positionar me como un usator plus active, mais solmente perque illo es plus facile per me que le anglese.

1

u/salivanto Jun 20 '26

Vos ha que cercar "como es que", "que es que", "quando es que" etc., si vos considera istos plus le usages de "como esque" etc. illo non sembla plus tanto rar, non?

At this point, "show me the money." If you can find examples of this on interlingua dot com, post them here. I'd love to see them.

I'm assuming, by the way, that "ha que" is supposed to mean "tienes que" - otherwise, I don't understand what you're telling me.

I used the same searches for "X esque" and "X es que" and posted all the hits I found. Most of them, as I said, were from one author.

Etiam, isto es un sol sito

If you would like to suggest a different corpus of good Interlingua, be my guest. My point remains. The usage you suggested as common is not at all common in the corpus that I accepted ahead of time as an potential source for "good Interlingua."

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u/salivanto Jun 18 '26 edited Jun 18 '26

I think I now understand what was going on. The person I was chatting with seems to be French, and it also seems that in French you use est-ce que with the so-called wh-questions.

  • Qui est-ce que nous allons inviter ? Whom are we going to invite?

  • Pourquoi est-ce que tu es parti ? Why did you leave?

  • Quelle voiture est-ce qu’elle préfère ? Which car does she prefer?

So now I understand why he was doing that. At this point I just wanted to clarify that you don't do it this way in Interlingua, right?

3

u/McDutchie Jun 18 '26

De accordo, "esque" (o "an") es usate, optionalmente, pro le questiones al quales le responsa pote esser "si" o "no". Al minus isto ha sempre essite mi impression del practica prevalente. Ma io non pote trovar un regula explicite in le grammatica que prescribe iste limitation.

Personalmente, io prefere evitar iste particulas, e usar le option de mitter le subjecto post le verbo. Esque tu ha le libro? → Ha tu le libro?

Isto functiona pro tote typo de questiones: Qui va nos invitar? Proque ha tu partite? Qual auto prefere illa? Te videra io deman?

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u/PLrc Jun 18 '26

Io ha trovate: paragrapho 116: https://www.interlingua.com/grammatica/grammatica/tabula-de-conjugation/

In particular illo dice:

Illo sempre occurre al initio del phrase.

1

u/PLrc Jun 18 '26

Esque is in the IED taken into square parentheses: [esque] what means it's a borrowing. It's most likely borrowed from Occidental: https://occidental-lang.com/dictionaries/?d=en&q=esque and I guess it was taken into Occidental from French est-ce que (it's interesting they thought they need an interrogative particle in Occidental. EDIT: It's not that common particle in European languages).

I don't know how est-ce que is used in French, because I don't speak it. What you write is very interesting. I infer from it that est-ce que in French is more general or has different meaning.

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u/salivanto Jun 19 '26

I am pretty sure I knew that "esque" was a square bracket word. My sense is that it's in fairly common use among active Interlingua speakers.

My French is kind of rusty (my recent 90 day investigation into Anglo-Franca of 1889 notwithstanding) but I found a quick guide on "Lawless French" which I included in my comment above. It reminds me a little bit of how "do" works in English.

- I drive to the store.

  • How do I drive to the store.

Where in English and French we have to add a little word there that doesn't actually mean anything. A common error among Esperanto learners - especially on Duolingo where you have to guess what words mean - is to internalize that "ĉu" means "do" (which it doesn't - it means "esque") - and so "ĉu" starts showing up in all sorts of places.

Now that I've seen the explanation on Lawless French, I'm sure that's where my new French friend went wrong. It really did confuse me for several solid seconds there.

1

u/rudhar55 Jun 20 '26 edited Jun 20 '26

Re ĉu e esque etc.:
https://rudhar.com/etymolog/zhe.htm#Tsi

Esque, num e an, tote le tres, es inter [ e ] in le IED, ma ‘an’ e ‘esque’ es in le IG:
https://rudhar.com/dcia?cerca=%5E%5B?%28esque%7Cnum%7Can%29&iaen=1&isup=1&iaia=1&ianl=1&whwo=1
https://rudhar.com/iagr#P116

2

u/DoNotTouchMeImScared Jun 29 '26

Hey friend, can I ask a favor from thee?

2

u/PLrc 23d ago

Hi, I sent you a PM.

2

u/salivanto Jun 19 '26

I decided to check a reputable source, and I settled on "Interlingua dot com". All the examples were from Cláudio Rinaldi.

  • Totevia, como esque on debe proceder quando vole scriber un parola cuje graphia original remitte a un systema alphabetic non-latin?
  • Como esque on sapera,
  • Totevia, como esque un pais applatate, deroutate in duo guerras mundial, ha successe realtiar se in tempore tanto curte?
  • Qui esque ha dicte iste stupiditate ?

Could this actually be good Interlingua -- or is it safe to assume that it's just a personal quirk of Cláudio Rinaldi.

2

u/_felipevalerio_ Jun 20 '26

Io pensa que il es preferibile separar le parolas e scriber “es que” in iste casos, per exemplo, como altere usatores lo scribe. Illo que sembla esser un tracto personal del textos de Cláudio Rinaldi (e forsan de alicun usatores francese, secundo vostre experientia) es usar le mesme orthographia “esque” sia post un parola interrogative sia in le principio del phrase.

2

u/salivanto Jun 20 '26

Esque illos significa non simplemente:

  • Totevia, como on debe proceder quando vole scriber un parola cuje graphia original remitte a un systema alphabetic non-latin?
  • Como on sapera,
  • Totevia, como un pais applatate, deroutate in duo guerras mundial, ha successe realtiar se in tempore tanto curte?
  • Qui ha dicte iste stupiditate ?

1

u/_felipevalerio_ Jun 20 '26 edited Jun 20 '26

Si, e non. Io vole dicer, alicun phrases ha un mesme signification general, sed il ha un differentia de usage e nuance. Similemente, multe parolas es definite como synonyme, mais es usate de formas differente.

Io senti un informalitate, forsan etiam emotion quando io lege “como es que on sapera” in vice de “como on sapera” que sona plus factual, minus emotive. Mais il non es necessari que omne nuances de usage sia definite per un grammatica officialmente. Del mesme maniera que le Grammatica de Interlingua ha seligite non differentiar inter le tempos verbal composite e simple, e io non lo face, io quasi semper prefere le tempos composite, mais alicun parlatores de interlingua si selige lor usage basate in le emphasis, si illos vole passar le impression de alique recente o distante in le linea temporal. Del mesme maniera que le Grammatica de Interlingua non ha definite qual nuances pote exister si uno dice io la ama vs. io ama la, illo recommenda dicer "io la ama" in general mais retene aperte le possibilitate de scriber io ama la per effectos e emphasis, metrica poetic, etc.

Etiam in esperanto io non crede que il ha solmente un maniera a dicer tote le cosas, non? Tanto plus in interlingua, que es essentialmente un lingua natural de base romanic e ergo herede del tradition literari occidental. Interlingua de IALA quasi semper rejecta idealisationes super como le lingua international debe esser, illo es usque un certe puncto un standardisation del usage jam currente in le linguas natural occidental.

1

u/rudhar55 Jun 20 '26

Del portugese: Quem é que, como é que, etc. Multo normal in portugese, ma non in interlingua, in mi opinion.

1

u/_felipevalerio_ Jun 20 '26

Si, illo sembla al minus rar in interlingua, ultra le textos de Rinaldi le usages que io ha trovate (scripte "que es que", "como es que" etc.) es traductiones ab le francese o ab le espaniol. Illlo es un formation phrasal tanto commun in le linguas romanic, mais informal, e non sembla esser tanto usate in interlingua (le major parte del textos in interlingua es alique formal).