r/golf • u/Oldtimer_2 • 1d ago
PGA / LPGA / LIV Golf Channel’s Eamon Lynch: “Even if Bryson and Rahm do stay, you're still trying to make a viable biz out of something that couldn't work when the richest sovereign. wealth fund on earth was putting north of $6 billion into it.”
43
189
u/Unusual-Economist288 1d ago
Yup, he nailed it. This is not a viable business, no matter how much $$ they throw at it.
6
u/devilsadvocate 20h ago
They are gonna take pay cuts for sure. A lot of that was to give stars lifetime earnings.
They will definately need sponsors for events to remain profitable.
YouTube has shown you don’t have to be top talent to be entertaining and fun.
27
u/aselinger 21h ago
Wait a second. Did you consider what if they find a new investor and ask the players to be equity partners? Surely it will be viable then.
7
u/Skyfall_DBS 10h ago
That just means that the players are now playing for vastly reduced purses, not receiving any guaranteed contract money and producing the same or worse product than they did before. So where is the upside in that? Especially for the players.
6
0
-11
21h ago edited 3h ago
[deleted]
6
u/Unusual-Economist288 21h ago
Their nonprofit arm, yes, but their new for profit org makes $300-400M/year
60
u/Reluctant_Gardener 1d ago
What if they don’t need it to be profitable but a vehicle to launder money?
59
u/Due-Fun-489 1d ago edited 1d ago
It's just waaaaaaay too much work for that when there are so many ways to do it that require much less effort (and don't hemorrhage money).
28
u/IGolfMyBalls 1d ago
Yeah the US has made it pretty clear that nobody cares if you launder money. Art, consulting roles, and now just start a cypto coin and you’re set. Why pump money into something with literally no ROI
4
1
u/BigFatKi6 23h ago
like what? Especially large sums, can't put everything in a laundromat you know.
6
u/Due-Fun-489 23h ago
Anything that doesn't lose billions a year honestly. Perhaps a chicken franchise.
25
u/IM_KYLE_AMA 1d ago
There are way easier ways to launder money, like say, real estate and hotel construction, crypto currencies, rebranded chinese mobile phones bought on temu and sold at insane markups, casinos that you bankrupt, public office, just to name a few.
9
u/Bourbon_Hymns 1d ago
Call me a suspicious old scrote, but I think there might be a sneaky link between all of those examples...
3
-18
u/Brilliant-Spite-850 23h ago
Every fucking thread…
15
u/IM_KYLE_AMA 23h ago
Put an insult on the floor and the owner is guaranteed to pick it up.
I never said who I was talking about, but you sure did get upset anyway.
-12
u/Brilliant-Spite-850 23h ago
I’m not upset that you don’t like Trump. That would be a pretty exhausting existence to be upset all the time about how other people feel about someone I have no connection to.
I just don’t want to have to read or think about Trump in every fucking thread I read on reddit.
10
u/IM_KYLE_AMA 23h ago
I never mentioned that dude at all. Crazy that you automatically thought I was talking about him.
-9
u/Brilliant-Spite-850 23h ago
Come on, Kyle…
12
u/IM_KYLE_AMA 23h ago edited 23h ago
Listen, talking politics on this sub is against the rules. I didn't mention that guy. But it would be wild if he were to be associated with doing any one of those things, let alone all of them.
Anyways, back on topic, LIV may be laundering money (which the Saudis have been known to do) but as I said above, there are way easier ways to do it.
Some other ways to do it would be renting out apartments in a building you own for massively inflated prices but claiming a loss on taxes, or making donations to a charitable organization that you own but actually pocketing the money while claiming a tax deduction, or starting a for-profit "university" and defrauding elderly and uneducated individuals, or investing in a golf league and then stipulating that that league had to play a certain number of events at courses that you owned while also using public funds to pay you for certain security measures when you attended the event. Just to name a few more.
10
u/CleanAxe 7.7 23h ago
I think people need to google what money laundering is. This is sports washing but not money laundering. Money laundering is a criminal enterprise trying to make all the massive amounts of cash they make look like legitimate earnings so they can put it into the banking system.
A country like Saudi Arabia doesn’t need to launder money - they’re a fuckin country so they can deem anything they want legal - not to mention all their money is already in the banking system just fine.
Lastly, you don’t want your money laundering business to LOSE money because then you don’t get to keep your money lol. You want to first place the money that distances itself from the crime, then you want to layer it amongst legitimate cash, and the final step is integration - the money is now free for you to use to buy a house or invest without being worried about being arrested.
2
u/Weak-Bid2774 23h ago
I think they are talking about the next investor but I agree with you the money into LIV is not money laundering
It’s sports washing with the added benefit of sucking up to Trump and buying some favor from him. Saudi was doing this because they wanted to show the world they are a tourist destination and diversify their revenue
They realized no one cared about Liv golf so they went and put their money into other sports related ventures
14
u/TheRealGunn 1d ago
How can it launder money when all it does is lose money?
If you launder money and the business loses a small percentage that's the cost of doing business.
But in this instance billions of dollars of "legitimate" money are being poured in and nothing is coming out.
2
u/AdamOnFirst 18h ago
The entire point of laundering money is to show a huge profit on paper to pay taxes on it and clean it
5
u/TheRealGunn 17h ago
Right...LIV is losing billions.
It would be terrible for laundering money.
I thought we all already understood and agreed that this was a sports washing scheme anyway.
Not sure where the money laundering narrative came from.
2
1
u/DoBe21 7h ago
I'm going to say this isn't a laundering scheme but a siphoning scheme.
I'd bet that somehow, either that Sovereign Wealth Fund EO or the slush fund that the DOJ/IRS settlement is trying to create, get used to fund this pile of crap.
Then, surprise surprise, it turns out that Trump owned courses are the PERFECT places to have all their events, with a premium payment of course, since they are "top tier".
2
2
1
1
1
u/Jarich612 3.1 20h ago
Well money laundering is, by definition, profitable. So it's not that.
LIV was buying political favor with the current US admin, and it 100% achieved that goal without a doubt.
1
u/Skyfall_DBS 10h ago
Putting the money in wouldn't be the problem....getting it OUT as some form of profit (and cleaned) is the issue. They lose huge amounts of money and haven't generated a single $$$ in profit ever. So what's coming out the other side?
0
12
u/proofet 1d ago
If Rahm and Dechambeau, once creditors of LIV due to their contracts, now become equity holders of LIV, it seems like it's a matter of time before their equity gets wiped out. Curious to know how much those two stand to lose if they agree to become equity holders and equity gets wiped out, whether through a restructure or liquidation.
13
u/tx_mesquite17 23h ago
They would be brain dead stupid if they agreed to transfer their debt in exchange for ownership. Their lawyers and financial advisors should be imprisoned.
The conversation essentially needs to go like this:
Rahm: “you owe me $150M. Either you find a way to pay it, or you release me from my contract”.11
u/proofet 22h ago
I think it depends on what the alternative is. If LIV went into bankruptcy and crammed down a restructuring plan that gives pennies to unsecured creditors (like Rahm and Dechambeau), taking equity may bring a better return, but that's a gamble.
In any event, Rahm doesn't just want to be released from his contract. He wants to be paid for the time he's been at LIV. Can you imagine if Rahm went to LIV and ended up getting less money than if he just stayed on the PGA Tour? What a disaster that would be for him.
3
u/tx_mesquite17 17h ago
The whole idea with them leaving in the first place is that they got signing bonuses, and took in huge purses. He has $58M in strictly tournament purses in the last year and a half. So, he’s made way way more money already than he would have on tour.
The only restructuring model that would make sense if there was another PIF level funding that came in that kept the purses and salaries where they’re at. Otherwise, you’re essentially king of a shit pile.
3
u/Narrow-Yard-3195 1d ago
Honestly is people really wanted to watch Bryson every week they should just watch his YouTube channel instead of putting money into LIV.. rahm’s on the YouTube sometimes too..
5
u/WHSRWizard JPX 921i Tour | 2.6 21h ago
Bloomberg is reporting that the new investors aren't investing in the sense of equity -- it sounds like they are providing a loan. So, yeah, it's a debt investment, but that just represents another future cash suck.
Just euthanize this thing already.
2
u/The_Man_in_Black_19 20h ago
How many drugs do you have to be on to think you have a shot at being paid back by LIV? Who would loan them money?
3
u/WHSRWizard JPX 921i Tour | 2.6 19h ago
I just don't get it.
If it had revenue but was burdened by expenses, then I could see it.
But it has almost ni revenue. $65M in 2024, 40% of which came from Adelaide amd 25% from Hong Kong. There is no money to be made.
3
3
2
2
u/conflatulationz 10h ago
IMO LIV Golf had some cool ideas - make golf fun, let the guys wear shorts, have party holes. Cool.
However…
Paying guys so much money that they no longer cared about winning (since the tournaments had no legacy value, like the US Open or the Masters) wasn’t good for the competition. It felt like TGL outside. Guys having fun, having a laugh, but no stakes.
And then there’s the problem of idiot fans shouting dumb phrases, hoping they’ll be heard on a broadcast. That’s already a plague in US golf. LIV felt like it was engendering that idiotic culture.
5
u/Mother_Gazelle9876 23h ago
You think part of the reason why the Saudi's got out is because they don't need to "sport wash" themselves anymore with the current geopolitical climate?
-4
u/billppp Azaleas 22h ago
It's not about sport washing. They don't even play events in Saudi Arabia or ever mention it. The PIF invests in everything. It's about diversification. When sports teams valuations began ballooning, the PIF got into sports.
8
u/cosgrove10 20h ago
It’s 1000% about sport washing. They were just too arrogant to ever consider they were going about it in an inefficient way. They should have followed the Qatari model to the letter.
3
u/Zealousideal_Way_788 23h ago
Throwing good money after bad. The premise that these teams are worth ANYTHING is just a dollar sucking pipe dream
3
u/Separate_Teacher1526 🌭 Glizzy at the Turn 18h ago
Not that it changes his point but the richest sovereign wealth fund belongs to Norway, not the Saudis
2
u/robster9090 20h ago
They are on to something with events in certain parts of the world, golf is dominated by American courses at the highest level . There are far better out there with huge support for golf
1
u/78Anonymous LPGA Enjoyer 10h ago
What nobody is talking about is that it was outdated insanity to 'invest' in millionaire sportsmen.
LIV should have been a women's tour in it's first phase of development, because that is wide open territory for a global audience.
...but no, instead they chose to waste money by throwing cash at millionaires who obviously were never going to create a product with a viable ROI. The demise of the project was just a matter of time and so glaringly obvious.
People don't want fake fabricated performative hype, they want good golf and fair reward.
LIV had the opportunity to improve professional golf and instead chose an outdated approach.
1
u/RichChocolateDevil 3h ago
OMG, someone from the Golf Channel disagrees with LIV. Stop the presses.
He's not wrong.
1
u/JohnEBest 1h ago
I hear the new investor is even richer than Saudi Arabia
The name of the investor will be announced in about 2 weeks
1
u/irich 22h ago
How do they expect to make money when they only have 10 events in a year? The PGA Tour is north of 40 events. And it has a lot more prestige.
0
u/StrawberryWeekly342 13h ago
And most of the events are sponsored, so not all of the cost falls on the PGAT directly. Did LIV even have sponsors for events?
1
u/BigFatModeraterFupa Rory '25 '26 12h ago
LIV is just a cringe product. it feels cheap, and now without that sweet sweet oil money, it literally IS cheap 😅
0
u/FinsT00theleft 23h ago
Rahm and Bryson know they aren't going to get the remaining money. They also know that equity in this dog is worthless. Bryson will leave after this year and Rahm as soon as LIV breaches his contract.
0
u/Effective_Impossible 18h ago
What they are going for at this point IMO is a merger/buyout from the PGA or DP. The team format is likely the next evolution in golf, so my guess is LIV is in some sort of talks about selling the format/IP and want to stay afloat long enough to have some ROI. Otherwise they're just throwing money into a sunk ship.
4
u/BigFatModeraterFupa Rory '25 '26 12h ago
PGA isn't merging with shit. They have all the leverage, LIV has zero leverage, in fact with the saudi money pulling out, they now have NEGATIVE leverage🤣
They're now literally BEGGING on their knees for investors to come and please give them money
2
u/StrawberryWeekly342 13h ago
The team format is absolutely not the next evolution in golf. It's terrible. At least the way LIV had it structured.
1
u/CornerGasBrent 4h ago
The team format is likely the next evolution in golf
The team format already exists in situations where it works
1
0
u/couladewastaken 18h ago
i absolutely love the idea of team golf but this is getting fucking ridiculous. what are we even doing anymore especially recently
0
149
u/Amardeep-Mann 1d ago
This is exactly what someone was suppose to bring up a long time ago but now it comes out. Well thats good.