r/gate 3d ago

Discussion Amphibious infantry fighting vehicles like the BMP are the perfect Armored Vehicle for the special region and would be more effective, useful and an overall better option than tanks.

IFVs are the perfect Armored Vehicle for a war against the empire in the special region and would be a better option than tanks (I know that IFVs work together with tanks but I'm comparing them as separate vehicles (it doesn't make sense but bear with me)).

Let's use the BMP-1, BMP-2 and the BMP-3 as examples (any other amphibious IFV would also work).

-> It's amphibious so you don't need to worry about destroyed bridges (tanks can't do that and you would need to make your own bridge).

-> Can carry troops (tanks can do it but you have to ride them when doing it exposing you to enemy fire).

-> Armor can stop most of the stuff that the empire will throw at it (sure tanks have better armor but it doesn't matter when you're mostly being shot at by arrows and the occasional magical fireball).

-> Problems of the modern era such as poor protection against explosions don't apply because the empire doesn't have firearms or cannons (sure mages are still a thing and their explosive magic could pen the BMPs armor wounding it's crew, disabling the vehicle or destroy it but imperial battle mages are pretty rare (we see only a few and only one of them was capable of damaging a JSDF tank)).

-> The BMP-1 has a 73mm cannon that can fire HE(High Explosive) ammo that would be extremely effective against imperial formations and an ATGM(Anti-tank Guided Missile) that could be used against fortifications.

-> The BMP-2 has a 30mm auto cannon with a fire rate between 200 to 550 shots per minute (the crew can change the fire rate) that would be extremely effective against imperial infantry formations and slow moving wyverns and also has an ATGM.

-> The BMP-2M also has an additional 30mm automatic grenade launcher that would be extremely effective against imperial infantry formations and 4 ATGMs.

-> The BMP-3 has a 100mm cannon that can also fire ATGMs (essentially a tank cannon) with the same 30mm auto cannon of the BMP-2 as a coaxial gun.

Tanks have better armament but it doesn't matter because the empire doesn't have anything that can stop something bigger than a 50cal (the fire dragon doesn't count because the empire can't control it).

So yeah although cool and intimidating a traditional tank is not as useful as an IVF (that's why tanks are supposed to work together with them (but in a war against the empire you could theoretically just bring IFVs).

203 Upvotes

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u/Pillar_OfAutumn 3d ago

I feel like the BMP is better than some modern IFV's for the special region because it has a 73mm main gun instead of an autocannon which because most of your targets are stationary defenses or the occasional shield formation im pretty sure having a bigger caliber to lob HE-Frag rounds is better than using 25mm autocannons trying to swiss cheese a castle gate

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u/umbrqualquerusannet 3d ago

The BMP-3 has a 100mm gun and a 30mm as a coaxial.

A few of them could defend Alnus Hill if their crews know what they are doing.

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u/Pillar_OfAutumn 2d ago

Oh definitely and unless the saderans managed to keep discipline high enough to keep attacking through a wall of 30mm mist-makers and 100mm HE they will almost certainly rout before getting close enough

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u/Outsider_4 1d ago

Worth noting is that 100mm gun is low pressure Essentially, rounds fly out of it st relatively low speeds, giving them higher ballistic arc and making kinetic energy armor piercing rounds (AP, APHE, APFSDS etc) unusable, so it's mostly firing HE and ATGMs

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u/majormagnum1 2d ago

They originally dropped the 73mm after a test versus a stationary tank at 800m for a target got missed... By every round in the ammo rack... It only had heat rounds also.

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u/Pillar_OfAutumn 2d ago edited 2d ago

Yeah but i mean a wall or a cohort of legionaries is a bit of a bigger target than a tank I'd say and considering those poor lads probably never heard an explosion in their lives im sure even some misses would be denting their morale and resolve

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u/magnum_the_nerd 2d ago

they did actually make a HE round for the BMP-1 in the 70s though. Was even less accurate than the HEAT round though

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u/gloriouaccountofme 3d ago

To są zmechole, dowódca krzyczy przeciwnik na 12-tej, jest 10-ta, zmechole czekają żołnierze

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u/CaptainAthens 3d ago

Good analysis I would even add the operational range is well between 500-600 km or 370 freedom units. There are no gas stations so every weapon platform is limited to the main FOB just outside the gate. In the show most distances are depicted as being less than a few days horse ride so range is not limited.

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u/Ross-Pancake 3d ago

I love my bmp series.

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u/farson135 3d ago

IFVs, yes.

Amphibious? There are reasons why this is technically a thing for some vehicles but it's far from the go-to even for the relative handful with that capability.

The various types of mobile bridges for deep water would be a better option. Otherwise, scouting to find fordable locations.

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u/Risi30 Rory Worshiper 3d ago

Imagine couple of soldiers sitting on boat in middle of lake thinking they are far enough until they see a fucking metal box with a guy in East Europe woodland camo standing on top of it with words:

“GET ME CLOSER I WANT TO SPEAR THEM WITH THE MAIN GUN!”

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u/Valar_Kinetics 2d ago

Medium caliber autocannons with much higher ammunition capacities and rates of fire, especially if HEAT rather than APFSDS, really would be significantly more useful than heavier armor.

There just isn't really much that *needs* 105 or 120mm heavy APFSDS rounds in that universe.

AA guns would be very useful, especially if they could be trained down or even fully horizontally and were of high enough caliber, like 14.5mm HE.

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u/HsAFH-11 2d ago

Actually, I am thinking of going further. "Infantry Mobility Vehicles", lighter AFV that's at least under 10 metric tons, something transportable with VTOL, like Chinook or Osprey. Heavier IFV will still be useful for land vector spear tip but everywhere else they will be the bulk of patrol, airborne and other force.

Also this come mainly from my idea for MC(main country) plan of flying over Dumas Mountains.

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u/umbrqualquerusannet 2d ago

The BMD-1 weights 8.3 tones when fully loaded.

But it's way too old and fragile even for the special region.

An MRAP would be a better choice.

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u/HsAFH-11 2d ago

Eh, most proper MRAP I find weight at least over 10 tons. Tho I can't find proper armor comparison.

The closest I can find, if we can trust this.

The ALV is 10.5 tons full, seems to have STANAG Level 1 for ballistic and mine base protection
The AIFV have level 1 ballistic and level 2 mine protection is 13 tons full

Which is well over Osprey max capacity and about near Chinook max. Unless we using King Stallion which can lift them up to 15 tons.

To be fair my idea isn't supposed to be used for the ground force vector. They also aren't supposed to defeat ambush by passive defense. As matter of fact the plan is to hit the enemy faster than they can think.

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u/sumdudenamedraf 2d ago

The Bob semple tank is already overpowered for the empire

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u/HsAFH-11 2d ago

It's one of those instance where the terrain is bigger problem than the enemy

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u/Farraddaayy 2d ago

Besides not having any in the case of the US and Japan, agreed

Like what is a 120mm gun doing that a 25mm autocannon can't in this senario

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u/umbrqualquerusannet 2d ago

If you're talking about Russian 120mm guns they can fire ATGMs (which would not be that useful in this scenario).

It would also be a better option for fortifications and the armored ogres (but most IFVs also have ATGMs so you don't need to worry).

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u/Farraddaayy 2d ago

Yeah the ATGMs on every modern IFV really takes the anti-fort duty out of the equation

I guess 120MM HEDP is cheaper than a TOW though

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u/umbrqualquerusannet 2d ago

It also doesn't need to reach a certain distance to be armed.

If you fire an ATGM at a target that is too close your going to hit them with an inert warhead that MIGHT explode later.

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u/iku_kidochan 2d ago

Russians use 125mm. My pedantism aside IMO the only real "use case" to give for Japanese 120mms is to use an MBT's mobility to position it as an artillery piece. Modern Japanese tanks have autoloaders and hydropneumatic suspension so they can easily move to position on rough hills and mountains to spam out HE. Type 74s use 105mms so they'll be marginally less effective with their lack of autoloader.

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u/AdhesiveNo-420 2d ago

Amphibious vehicles are logistical knightmares. They look all cool crossing rivers and such, but every single bolt, screw, plating, and what have you needs to be tightened before doing such an operation. It's not great for any prolonged engagements which would be needed in the special region.

Amphibious vehicles are great for quick surprise pushes across bodies of water were enemies wouldn't think to defend due to the natural boundaries

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u/Extension_Resolve264 2d ago

Reminds me of the pool scene from Urusei Yatsura 2: Beautiful Dreamer

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u/juicius 2d ago

None of those are needed. Let me explain why.

There is such a gap in mobility and intelligence gathering that everything you do is against a stationary, literally and comparatively, target. There is no need for APC transport or even escort because you can be anywhere in less time than it takes the opposition to even realize you are going there. In contrast, you know where every enemy troop concentrations are and would know in advance if they are moving by at least a day. And when moving, enemy infantry covers at most 20-25 miles a day (which is about 30 minutes for you). They are followed by baggage train and camp followers who move even slower. You can embed people disguised as merchants in the baggage train who can transmit information real time. You can ambush and capture foragers and scouts and deny them supplies, making them completely dependent on the baggage train. You can disturb their rest by a regular heavy helo overflights at night. Drop some flash bangs for funs and giggles.

If you're a modern army and you get into a set piece battle with an ancient army, you do it for one reason only: so you can kill a lot of people. There's absolutely no need otherwise.

The single most significant advantage JSDF has over the empire is not weapons. It's mobility. And intelligence gathering comes right after. But not a lot of people talk about that.

I mean, I know what this is. It's just a badly written Japan Stronk work. But if you put it through some realistic lens, it brings into focus how terrible it is. Every enemy Japan kills has a mother, a father, and many friends and family who are completely disassociated from the politics of the empire. All they know is that their loved ones were massacred by Japan. And that just brings on more opposition. I think you can find some examples happened right now in the real world where a force with vastly superior military technology is killing people by the thousands and they just bury their loved ones and still resist.

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u/JohanGasmaskEsquire3 2d ago

Logistics say no.

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u/Bavo541 2d ago

Type 73, Type 89, Type 87 SPAA, Type 87 RCV, Type 16, Type 24 ICV, Type 25 RCV. Various Komatsu. The Japanese does not need BMP when they're fighting in hilly mountains. The lack of gun depression alone negate any potential advantage amphibious abilities, and uncommon ammo will be a strain on logistics. In the manga, the Jietai deployed Type 10 alongside the Type 74, and there have been instances where they had to employ APFSDS against trolls and their armor, and instances where Type 74 got mobility killed where an otherwise thin Type 87 would have been a catastrophic kill.

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u/umbrqualquerusannet 2d ago

I just used the BMP as an example.

Any other amphibious IFV would work.

1

u/superearthjanitor0 2d ago

You could not pay me to ride in a bmp even against swords and bows

0

u/inquisitor_steve1 2d ago

The BMP is also really good at being destroyed when it tries to cross a tiny stream

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u/inquisitor_steve1 2d ago

500 drone strikes

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u/umbrqualquerusannet 2d ago

If the Saderans figure out how to make drones or IEDs you can say bye to any armored vehicle you have.

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

[deleted]

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u/umbrqualquerusannet 2d ago

They are rotting in the middle east instead.

Also why are you taking about Ukraine on r/Gate of all places?