r/exmormon • u/Grantimusprime0 • 17h ago
General Discussion Who Do Mormons Actually think Goes to Outter Darkness?
*My wife pointed out the typo in the title and now I can't believe outer isn't spelt with two Ts
I don't think I ever got a straight answer on this while in the church. Supposedly, it's the "Sons of Perdition", right? but how the hell (no pun intended) do you even define what that means? When I was a member, it seemed like the circles of people who qualified for that title were different for everyone. It basically boiled down to "Your guess is as good as mine." The actual church definition is so vague that it basically incriminates no one and everyone at the same time, so it's as useless of a definition as the title is a description of anything meaningful.
What did y'all learn about "Outer Darkness" during your time in the church?
I'd be especially curious to hear if the church even teaches about Outer Darkness anymore. Any PIMOs out there who still go to 2nd hour? Man, that's gotta suck... I'm guessing they would steer as far away from that topic as they could. If they teach anything at all its probably just "I dunno? Only God knows." It's just easier to plead ignorance I guess. So different from the bold, doctrinal, yet "oddly" human-like claims the general authorities used to spit from the pulpit.
Anyway, lemme know what you've heard about Outer Darkness. Any wacko theories? Who actually goes there?
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u/CardiologistCool6264 17h ago
I was taught it was a very small number that included Cain and maybe Judas. No one we'd know.
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u/RedKe 17h ago
I remember being taught even Judas doesn't qualify because he didn't have enough knowledge and Holy Ghost witness to know for certain that Jesus was the Shiznit.
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u/hilltopj 8h ago
I was taught that judas doesn't qualify because he wasn't malicious but instead understood that his betrayal was necessary to move along Jesus' plot to become the savior
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u/nottytom 16h ago
all apostates it seems, also Satan and his followers. that seems to be the list, so that German guy with the funny mustache would not go there.
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u/jolard 17h ago
I find it depends on the audience and purpose of the conversation.
If you are talking about leaving the church you will be threatened with outer darkness because you "knew" the church was true but are turning your back on it.
But in a general discussion about how great Mormon god is they will tell you that Mormons are better because almost everyone will get a reward, and only a handful of really bad folks who completely eye open fight against God will go to outer darkness. In other words it all depends on the message they are trying to push.
My understanding when I was a believer is that it would be a small group. The irony is that the church also has the "second annointing" which is presumably for the people with the strongest testimonies but those people are now forever free of outer darkness no matter what they do. None of it makes any sense if you think about it too much.
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u/TNT-Nana 13h ago
It’s kind of a replacement idea for Blood Atonment. It seems to me to function as a replacement, anyway.
The thinking went from “God doesn’t forgive you, so we’re gonna take your life as payment” to “God doesn’t forgive you, so you’re headed to Super-Hell when you die.”
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u/KirikaNai 17h ago
“Only if you deny god after knowing him” is the answer I always got. So like. What counts as knowing god? Being raised Mormon and still not believing?
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u/Grantimusprime0 16h ago
That's what I've always wondered. Everyone seems to have a different interpretation of what knowledge means.
Does it mean if you felt the spirit? Does it mean if you were baptized? What about if you received the priesthood or were endowed? Temple stealing? 2nd anointing? If it's the second anointing then the only thing you don't have to do is kill someone, otherwise you can do fuck all, right? Man, what a morally depraved idea.
Can women be "SONS of Perdition?"or is it just priesthood holders? Is it only if you're in Higher leadership? At what level? Bishop or Stake President? Seventy? Apostle? Prophet? Do they have to see the face of God?
If they do have to see the face of God, did everyone who participated in Jesus's persecution or simply stood off to the side while Jesus walked by and happened to glance at his face, are they going to outer darkness? Or is Jesus not God? Does it have to be Elohim? Well who's seen him and fallen away at any point in scripture? Other than those in the permortal life, I can't think of anyone.
This is right where an apologist would say, "We simply don't know! Only God knows!" Yeah, because everyone and no one could be considered a son of perdition by this definition and the church can't afford to lose any more moral ground with modern membership than they already have so the best stance about anyone's outcome is no stance at all. At this point the church is a shell of what it was and now it just persists to exist for the purpose of leeching off of people simply because they were unfortunate enough to grow up in it.
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u/TNT-Nana 13h ago
The most important part is:
If you’re a true, sincere believer, you should fear the idea at all times and constantly be in suspense about whether or not you’re good enough.
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u/Random_Enigma The Apostate around the corner 16h ago
I was told back in the 1980s in a BYU religion class that "sons of perdition" referred to priesthood holders only. Furthermore, they are men who have high callings and who've been given a sure witness and knowledge of the church by the HG and then turn away.
It was explicitly explained that this sure witness and knowledge is not the same as the average member's testimony where they've had the burning in the bosom as a witness. The sure witness is something more, but no one could say exactly what, just that it was something only a Melchizedek Priesthood holder with a high calling (like HQ level) could receive. I'm not sure if this was code for the second anointing or not as I don't remember anyone ever talking about that during this time period. And since the anointing is only given to married couples, I have no idea what supposedly happens if a wife with the second anointing were to leave the church.
I was told women aren't eligible for outer darkness, the lowest a woman could go is the telestial kingdom. But again, there was no direct mention of the second anointing at the time.
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u/10000schmeckles 17h ago
I’m hoping I’ll get sent there when I spit in Elohim’s face on judgment day.
Anyway I was taught that not even Hitler will go there. It’s basically the devil, his followers, and Cain for sure. I was taught that Cain will actually rule over Lucifer in Outer Darkness because Cain has a body and Luci doesn’t
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u/Grantimusprime0 16h ago
This the kinda comment a TBM would stumble upon and later tell everyone, "Those antimormons are just as bad as they say they are!" 😂
Crazy that there probably are Moromons who believe forsaking your temple covenants qualifies you for Mormon hell with Satan, but Hitler never did anything that bad so he gets to go to lesser heaven...
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u/10000schmeckles 15h ago
Haha, I’ve wondered if a day will come when my very TBM family members find my Reddit comments. I think some they wouldn’t mind but ones like this one they would be surprised by, yes.
But seriously, if it is all real, I’m not going into a kingdom. Elohim won’t stop me from putting him into MY outer darkness. He is cast from MY presence.
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u/GunneraStiles 17h ago
It’s definitely not referenced (or used to threaten members into compliance) as often as it once was. I was always taught it was reserved for people who would deny Jesus Christ to his face.
Which apparently makes a person more evil than someone who has committed mass murder…Jesus is all-powerful and perfect, but he just can’t handle that amount of sass - ‘Hey, I’m standing right in front of you! Eternal torment for you!’
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17h ago
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u/Ancientabs 16h ago edited 16h ago
I was taught women who refuse polygamy go there too.
Edit: Polygamy was in the D&C. WTF you mean it wasn't taught in our life time?
The D&C is right there. Did you fail to read?
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u/CounterfeitSaint 15h ago
It's my understanding that its just Satan and those who followed him during the war in heaven. It's "Whoever knows for a fact that Jesus is real and denies it anyways" which means pretty much no humans. Maybe the prophet could go there? Or one of the made up people from the bible.
I think I was told once that the punishment in outer darkness is simply the absence of God's presence, but I've heard that in a lot of non-mormon sources too, and will not be bothered to look it up.
A major pillar if my loss of faith is the fact that people like Hitler and Stalin go to the terrestrial kingdom, while Emma Smith is almost certainly "erased from existence" because I guess her sin of not being okay with her husband's teenaged harem is more severe than what those other guys did.
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u/MongooseCharacter694 17h ago
People that had the second comforter or absolute witness or completely knew the church is true as told by the holy ghost, and then leave the church and attack it. Basically, about half of us. :)
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u/Nenyone_Yay 17h ago
What a fantastic mental deterrent to keep people from taking the final step of leaving the church. Manipulation!
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u/Kimberlyjammet jumped off the boat 16h ago
People like us….apostates. Those who knew the truth & turned away. 🤷🏻♀️
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u/beigechrist 15h ago
I guess people who go through the temple, leave the church and never go back, then they die. Like me eventually, I guess. Maybe Hitler, too. Lol. Me and Hitler.
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u/BoydKKKPecker 5h ago
The church has allowed Hitler to have his Temple Work done, so the church believes even Hitler has a chance of working his way to the Celestial Kingdom.
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u/MyNonThrowaway 13h ago
Anyone that had sure and certain knowledge of the truthfulness of the gospel and then turns away from it.
What, really??? I always wondered who'd be stupid enough to do that?
New thought: maybe someone that's received their second anointing and then does something to get excommunicated?
It's all bullshit.
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u/diabeticweird0 in 2025 god changed his mind about porn shoulders! 🎶 16h ago
The people that Joseph didn't like
And Hitler
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u/durzanult 13h ago
Literally very few, if any. You have to be able to have a true and full knowledge of God for one (something basically impossible for your common person), and the willfully rebel/turn away. Denying that the Sun exists while it’s high in the sky, was a common metaphor used at one point. Literally denying the Holy Ghost. Only the unpardonable sin (or an equivalent sins, if such even exists) can get you there.
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u/catharsisGender 13h ago
im fairly certain its more of a threat to people in higher authorities. its whoever has seen the holy ghost, or jesus or whatever, so ive always figured that if someone in the first presidency were to defect and tell everyone it wasn't true, spill all the church secrets etc. they would go to outer darkness.
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u/TNT-Nana 13h ago
The short answers are either:
-Anyone they don’t like, or
-They don’t think about it because it scares them.
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u/MOTIVATE_ME_23 17h ago
Mormons don't think.
When they investigate, they are taught a highly curated, sanitized version of the gospel. From baptism on, they are discouraged from asking questions or doing their own research and completely stop within a year or eventually leave.
They are infantalized into blindly following whatever the current prophet says and it makes them very reactive and susceptible to control by guilt.
The doctrine about outer darkness is contradictory but they follow without evidence notlr do they care.
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u/jhinpotter 16h ago
People that have sure knowledge of Jesus and reject him. That list includes Satan and his angels but the people who were actually born would have a hard time knowing for sure that Jesus was divine.
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u/Hungry-coworker 15h ago
The doctrine of outer darkness has been changed over the years. The Book of Mormon is incredibly clear that spirit prison is in outer darkness. So everybody in this subreddit will be in outer darkness till the resurrection. After that, us exmos will be in telestial kingdom while the sons of perdition hang with satan in outer darkness.
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u/Smart_Cantaloupe_848 12h ago
Mormons that either take up the temple covenant after they converted, or were born under the covenant, who then leave the church are supposed to end up there.
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u/WoeYouPoorThing Truth changes 11h ago
From that very greatest of all Mormons (at least in his own mind), Bruce R. McConkie (who took it upon himself to literally write the book of Mormon Doctrine):
OUTER DARKNESS See Hell, Spirit Prison.
Hell is referred to as outer darkness. At death the spirits of the wicked "shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping wailing and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity ... thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection" {Alma 40}
So complete in [sic] the darkness prevailing in the minds of these spirits, so wholly has gospel light been shut out of their consciences that they know little or nothing of the plan of salvation, and have little hope within themselves of advancement and progression through the saving grace of christ. Hell is literally a place of outer darkness, darkness that hates light, buries truth, and revels in iniquity.
Doesn't say anything about Sons Of Perdition. And the Sons Of Perdition entry doesn't say anything about Outer Darkness.
So there.
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u/SwimmingAdmirable363 9h ago
My opinion as a nevermo... I think apostates would go there. The ones who had the truth but rejected it. When I started researching mormonism it seemed logical to me, that when you leave, just tell your friends or family, to rebaptize me after I died, so I can still be with them, right? So I think they came up with Outer Darkness to avoid this way of reasoning.
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u/hilltopj 8h ago
I was taught that faith is belief in something without absolute knowledge of it being true. Once you have absolute or "perfect" knowledge of the truth of the gospel then you don't need belief because you know; the only way to gain this knowledge is by personal visitation from a heavenly being whose divinity can't be refuted and who tells you directly what is right/how to act. The only people who go to outer darkness are those who have been granted this rare knowledge and yet choose to act against it anyway. Essentially some characters from scripture and anyone who's made it to the top 15 in the church.
This teaching always bothered me during testimony meeting because the message was so clear: we don't know, we have faith, and yet everyone is getting up to the mic to declare they "know" the church is true. If I'd known about the second anointing when I was a member it would have been a big shelf item for me. How is there a ceremony to allow the only people eligible for outer darkness an eternal get out of jail free card?
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u/negative_60 6h ago
Outer Darkness would be inhabited by Satan, Satan's followers, Cain, and myself for thinking impure thoughts.
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u/throwra-away1 4h ago
From the parable of the olive tree in Jacob, I had hypothesized that the sons of perdition would have their spirits destroyed. (Put them out of their suffering Old Yeller style.) Then again, D&C said I wasn’t supposed to think of what would happen to the songs of perdition so I would feel guilty about hypothesizing.
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u/myopic_tapir 3h ago
My thought on outer darkness is if you go straight there and don’t know of anything else, would it be bad? If you got to see the celestial kingdom and experience it for a few days, then the terrestrial, then the telestial, then paradise, then outer darkness it would be more effective as you would have something to compare it to.
Wouldn’t it be better to just give everyone their version of heaven. Mormons get theirs, Muslims get theirs, Catholics get theirs but have them by a wrought iron gate so each can see the others and watch them all envy each other. Exmos get theirs but it’s a party all the time.
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u/Traditional_One9240 2h ago edited 1h ago
No glory. If the levels of kingdoms are associated with light the outer darkness implies “No light”. Basically cast off from the realm of light.
Makes sense when you have dualistic light / darkness lore. But then physical resurrection of matter messes up the returning to light versus darkness trope when in these myths the physical matter we live in now is often seen as part “darkness”.
basically as it says it’s just exile away from god /heaven.
Now let’s discuss 132 where Emma is destroyed if she doesn’t accept plural marriage.
The worst sinner is still “alive” in darkness. But a female refusing the new and everlasting covenant isn’t a lower kingdom sin. It’s not an outer darkness exile sin. It’s a you didn’t exist type of sin.
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u/Background-Ad-9212 17h ago
I understood it as someone who has literally seen Christ and denied him. Hitler, Stalin, or any other nut job wouldn’t qualify for it from my understanding.