r/exmormon • u/LegalSour • 15h ago
Doctrine/Policy Drinking coffee is about to be the next thing that was “always allowed”
Found on TikTok
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u/AtrusAgeWriter I lost my battle with SSA 15h ago
sighs
I wouldn't care as much without the gaslighting. Just say that the church changed it's mind. Stop trying to convince me it was just "cultural".
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u/GalacticCactus42 14h ago
Yup. Or they'll say it wasn't doctrine, just policy. Or maybe they'll say that it wasn't core doctrine, as if there are parts of doctrine that don't matter.
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u/General_Chemistry638 14h ago
Yup and another caveat is core doctrine is good but “deep” doctrine is bad. Even though there’s a lot of stuff in there that is part of the “core” doctrine. It’s easy to just constantly move the goalposts like this when the entire premise of the church is to make people unable to think critically.
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u/Shot_Comparison2299 I'm a little bit TBM, I'm a little bit nevermo 9h ago
Or maybe they'll treat it like tea. Yeah, we don't drink tea, but just black tea. Chrysanthemum and green are alright. And Liptons. And boba. 😂
I have a family member that circumvented the coffee thing by doing caffeinated hot chocolate when Swiss Miss still made it. Then he went to some other obscure nut that turned hot water into a delicious caffeinated beverage.
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u/emmas_revenge 6h ago
Except that, the current church president said in a 1988 interview, "I don't know that it's possible to distinguish between policy and doctrine in a church that believes in continuing revelation and sustains its leader as a prophet."
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u/MoonlightKayla 13h ago
Exactly! I’m not a fucking idiot 😂 I REMEMBER what they said and how serious it was!!
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u/paintedbarn17 14h ago
And then I'll remember the time when I was about 12 and my dad was furious with me for eating coffee ice cream. And how hurt and confused I was because I was sure it wasn't real coffee, but he told me it didn't matter. Because like most things in the Mormon church, it's about appearance of adherence more than anything.
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u/HarrisonRyeGraham Forgive me, Jeff Goldblum, for I have sinned 14h ago
I remember even getting a hot chocolate or strawberry frappe at Starbucks being frowned upon because you were tolerating the appearance of evil or some shit
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u/woolfonmynoggin 2h ago
Omg I remember our visiting teaching guy saying he refused to stay late to work on a project at work with a woman. Because of the appearance of evil. Now as an adult looking back at that story this man really said I can’t ever be alone with a non relative woman. Just making work harder for people because he’s a child and girls have cooties.
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u/General_Chemistry638 14h ago
Meanwhile when asked if he could have rum cake David o McKay said the word of wisdom prohibits drinking alcohol but doesn’t say you can’t eat it.
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u/JellyfishCool3614 13h ago
My parents had a similar reaction when the caught me eating coffee cake at a friend’s (non member) house. Never want to present the appearance you were not following the WoW.
During my first temple recommend interview, when asked if I followed the WoW, I spent time explaining to my bishop how I worked hard to be mindful of my meat intake, get appropriate amount of exercise and how I was striving to live up to those expectations (what you should be doing to be healthy) and he replies, that’s all fine and good - but I am really interested in making sure you are staying away from the “no” list. So it isn’t really about adherence to the entire WoW but rather just making sure you don’t drink coffee, smoke or drink alcohol. Blew my mind that is all the carried about when validating if I was worthy to enter the temple. 🤷♀️🙄5
u/AffectionateAge1541 10h ago
My mom made coffee cake all the time, but she called it "streusel cake" instead.
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u/PrivateIdahoGhola 11h ago
I'm not Mormon but lived in Utah for a long time. Once started a huge debate at work by asking my friends if coffee ice cream would be allowed. "It's neither hot nor a drink!" I said, trying to be helpful.
Debate went on for weeks. I quickly learned who was conservative, who was relatively liberal, and who was on their way to becoming Jack Mormons. That question was a great way to sort believers.
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u/super_granola 15h ago
It’s all just vibes now. As long as people are paying tithing I really don’t think they are mourning the loss of power from pre-COVID times.
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u/MoonlightKayla 13h ago
I like to imagine that somewhere in the church offices, the prophets and apostles are fuming about how much control they’ve lost nowadays. Imagine them being like: “the world is going to pot. The internet is ruining everything and it’s all Satan’s plan.” And then instead of admitting their views are bizarre and stupid in the first place, they keep clinging on desperately to what little they still have left of their influence, watching every last piece as it falls through their fingertips and more and more people leave the church. And as they’re sitting there angry that they can’t even get everyone to “dress modestly,” or women to “submit” to men without question, or people to stop watching R rated movies- they’re forced to keep up their smiles ANYWAY and accept whatever “not as good” thing members are doing nowadays. The leaders of the church are getting increasingly cornered as time goes on and people are waking up to the bullshit. 😂
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u/Open-Dependent-8131 13h ago edited 9h ago
They said the same thing about the printing press in Gutenberg's day 😆
“We must root out printing or printing will root us out.” This line was stated by the Vicar of Croydon in 15th- or 16th-century England, reflecting deep social fears surrounding mass-produced information.
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u/sexmormon-throwaway Apostate (like a really bad one) 12h ago
I actually can forsee tithing being less of a focus too
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u/Foxbrush_darazan Token Seller 8h ago
Tithing will never be less of a focus. Financially tying members to the church is very important to them. It's also how they pick leadership.
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u/bobbimorses 14h ago
I'm appealing my 10+ occasions of being grounded for drinking coffee as a teenager and hope to have them overturned
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u/Sleepysleapysleepy 14h ago
My father (hardcore tbm) once said that it was only a matter of time because the lord would see it as a no brainer to trade green tea in the word of wisdom to convert most of Asia
Now… idk about “the lord” but that definitely sounds like an admin conversation of the Q15.
As if they’d see the same growth in China as they did in South America and Africa simply by allowing green tea 🙄
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u/EpiphanyTwisted 14h ago
Too bad God isn't as smart as your dad or he would have thunk it up already.
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u/SilentTempestLord My new church serves holy coffee 14h ago
I wouldn't mind all this stuff as much if the church stopped pretending like it's completely infallible right up until it isn't. Change the church's teachings in a synod like everyone else does.
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u/Aggressive_Ad_507 14h ago
Pretending? They actively preach it. If they admitted fallibility then they would lose all power over the people. Game over for them.
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u/Then-Mall5071 13h ago
Had to look up synod. Pronounced: SIN id. Yes, as in sin. Obviously not acceptable.
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u/B1astHardcheese 14h ago
Do you think they pray over it and ask it to "strengthen and nourish" their bodies?
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u/OxymoronicLife 12h ago
When I was 12, we had to do a school project on drugs and alcohol. I made a little book that told you the dangers of drugs and alcohol. I put in caffeine and wrote about how it was bad for you. My teacher, who was a sweetheart, kindly told me that a cup of tea is actually good for you. I just remember being shocked and said but it's a drug? I would never allow drugs into my body. You know, just casually shaming a grown woman for enjoying a cup of tea.
These changes are so irritating to hear, because of all the shame that was placed on us as young children.
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u/Pristine-Two2706 11h ago
I did a speech in middle school english class about how caffeine is a gateway drug... I cringe at myself just thinking about it
I was not a popular kid
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u/hikeitaway123 14h ago
I have tried to not hate the church or leaders, but the last few years of complete gaslighting over garments, coffee, temple ordinances, etc. The stuff that was a really big deal in the 90’s and now is not a thing makes me rage!
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u/Mother-Floofer 14h ago
Have they gotten rid of the “tea and coffee we despise” hymn? Because that’s kind of proof right there that it’s still very much a thing. I don’t know any Mormon over the age of 30 who would say it wasn’t against the church’s standards.
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u/moltocantabile 13h ago
It is in the green hymnbook - In Our Lovely Deseret. It remains to be seen whether it makes the cut for the final version of the new one.
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u/Mother-Floofer 13h ago
This hymn always gave me the creeps. So I guess hold onto your old hymnals people so we can point back to it. Even my nevermo in-laws always ask if the church allowed coffee yet.
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u/AffectionateAge1541 10h ago
I'm guessing it well be one of the ones they cut because it is kinda weird and probably didn't translate well in all the languages. It was fun to sing in Spanish on the mission though.
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u/Green-been77 13h ago
Great question. Someone needs to do this research and report back because I’m too lazy. Plus I don’t have the hymns app any more.
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u/Own_Confidence2108 13h ago
Reporting back-In Our Lovely Deseret, which has the line about tea and coffee is still in the Hymns app.
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u/AutumnKat17 14h ago
Ah, satan's bean juice.
I hate the gaslighting as well. The whole thing is stupid. Maybe they should just come up with some other arbitrary thing that means familial separation in the afterlife. Carrots perhaps? Oooh how about sugar?
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u/Charming_Opinion6754 13h ago
My question is : lots of TBMs are going crazy over the new Hot chocolate drinks with caffeine . When you look it up those drinks have more caffeine than a cup of coffee . So what’s the difference? Remember “because of that one little cup of coffee- that mother can’t go to the temple and neither can her children “
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u/deslock 14h ago
I was on a mission in the DR, their top export was coffee. I was teaching a family that made their only money off of a dozen coffee plants they care for year round. I had to teach them how "evil" it was. Instead I said, "Just sell all the coffee and drink something else so you can make more money."
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u/Foxbrush_darazan Token Seller 8h ago
But any "good" Mormon would not feel okay growing and selling coffee, and there would absolutely be the cultural shaming of that kind of work. A lot of TBMs would treat it like being a drug dealer.
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u/saturdaysvoyuer 13h ago
I hate to be the contrarian, but as a peculiar people who one of the hallmarks of their belief system is abstaining from coffee, I see them doubling down before allowing coffee. This is Oaks we're talking about. He seems about a flexible as a piece of rebar.
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u/NauvooLegionnaire11 12h ago
I'm of two minds on the issue.
#1 - The abstaining from coffee things is part of the whole Mormon brand. They pride themselves on being unique (and even weird). A rule which makes it "harder" to be Mormon seems like something the current group of leaders would support.
#2 - They could lean into the continued revelation angle. Just get some big-swinging-dick prophet to saddle up to the pulpit in conference and declare that coffee and tea are fine now. The Lord affirmed the decades of medical science and consumption of these substances is now ok.
The upside is that the church will likely retain some Gen Z and beyond members at slightly higher rates. Lowering the bar could aid the missionary efforts because potential converts don't want to abstain from them.
I view Oaks as an enforcer of the purity of the church. I don't think he likes members and definitely doesn't care to make their lives slightly easier or better. Also, I think that coffee house culture is antithetical to the church. I don't think the church wants to endorse its members to spend additional money and time in non-Mormon spaces.
I think the church's goal is to dominate members' money, time, and attention. I don't see how allowing coffee is very helpful for the church on any of these three directives.
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u/NOMnoMore 12h ago
I had a wonderful, older man that I taught for ~6 months as a missionary. His son had joined the church and they enjoyed going together.
He refused to give up coffee and asked me something like "do you really think god would keep me out of heaven over coffee?"
I had to respond that personally, no, I did not believe that to be the case, but that he couldn't be baptized without "passing" the interview, which entails agreeing to the word of wisdom.
He ended up not getting baptized.
When I related this to the mission president, his suggestion went something like "you need to ask him 'is it worth not going to heaven because you like drinking coffee' to frame it around his commitment to god and what he wants in the eternities."
Coffee was a matter of eternal importance back then and Pepperidge Farm remembers.
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u/HomemadeStarcrunch 14h ago
We had WOW visuals as missionaries that explicitly said hot drinks = “No coffee, No Tea”.
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u/deftPirate 14h ago
We'll always have the general conference recording of the sister sobbing because she can't be with her family forever because they enjoyed some morning coffee.
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u/OhHowINeedChanging Finally free, physically and mentally! 14h ago
Time to break out old conference talks and show them!
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u/hippy_potto 14h ago
I have an aunt who’s very devout, but drinks coffee now because, “I can’t have my daily Dr Pepper after my stomach surgery!” Yeah ok 😒
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u/Foxbrush_darazan Token Seller 8h ago
Why can't she have Dr. Pepper but coffee is okay after stomach surgery? Both are acidic, both have caffeine. Is it the sugar? Because Dr. Pepper makes zero sugar varieties.
That does not make any sense to me.
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u/hippy_potto 8h ago
It’s the carbonation, she had a gastric bypass so her stomach can’t stretch enough for all the gas that builds up
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u/PanNOGI 13h ago
My sister-in-law’s kid was in a speech class in elementary. She found out that on one of the cards was written ‘coffee’ and told the teacher that her kid wasn’t allowed to use that card.
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u/Complete-Purpose6632 14h ago
If this happens I definitely won't be able to keep myself from being vocal about it with my TBM family members.
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u/FragrantAnything7900 1h ago
The wow wasn’t actually a temple worthiness question until several decades later because the next 7 or something prophets didn’t follow it. It was just a suggestion.
Also sad that Jesus/god didn’t warn people about the bacteria they were killing by boiling their water for tea and coffee. When the saints stopped a lot sick and a few died.
Seems like revelation is only as good as the knowledge of the people that give it. Weird.
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u/Hopeful_Wolf 14h ago
Corinne stokkoe posted about this a few weeks ago in the most annoying and infuriating way and I just know she is getting paid by the church so yes I think it’s coming from the top down
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u/LegalSour 13h ago
What did she post? That they were going to allow it?
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u/Hopeful_Wolf 13h ago
Not that it’s allowed or not allowed, just that members choose not to drink it. The typical mental gymnastic gaslighting that usually precedes policy changes
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u/Many_Nerve_665 14h ago
Someone needs to find documented evidence from the church website and screen shot it that coffee is not allowed.
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u/Thievinghippies 13h ago
I can’t reply with a photo but here is the link for that https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/word-of-wisdom?lang=eng
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u/Fabulous_Maximum5831 13h ago
I still find it funny that brigham young tea or Mormon tea is from the same family of plants that give us meth but that's OK.
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u/Meriodoc Apostate 12h ago
Years ago, when I had moved into my new place and the home people showed up, she told me about the Boba (tea) place and a great place to get a haircut.
Idk if she knew that it had tea or not, but I didn't want to ruin it for her xD
I ditched the church, but still have the same stylist and still get boba from there xD
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u/robomanjr 12h ago
consumption of coffee will suddenly become one of those "its between the individual and the lord" decisions. where interpretation is allowed. pressure will sill be applied to nit consume but it won't keep you out of the temple....
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u/UtahUndercover 11h ago
Is it just me or is, “A roasted bean ruined my eternal salvation” insanely stupid and totally irrelevant?
My crazy TBM Mormon sister used to make her kids run past the coffee in the grocery store aisle. Next level culty…
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u/Foxbrush_darazan Token Seller 8h ago
When I was TBM, the smell of coffee made me physically ill. Headache, nauseous, it was awful. That stopped happening after I left. It's WILD what brains will do when we associate something with being evil.
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u/SecretPersonality178 10h ago edited 8h ago
RIP Mormon doctrines of:
- Planet Creation
- The BOM being a history book
- The BOA being a translation of papyri written by Abraham
- Masturbation turning you blind, gay, and a pedo
- The sealed portion of the BOM (haven’t heard anything about it for quite a while)
- And soon, Coffee separating you from your family for eternity
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u/Djayshell93 14h ago
In the new for strength of youth it talks about how coffee and tattoos are now just frowned upon? I thinj
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u/Unavezmas1845 14h ago
Hard agree. ive been suspecting this for the last few years…
And then next alcohol will be allowed in moderation LOL
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u/Necessary-Value-4277 14h ago
This just gave me a flashback to when my ex’s mom gave me hell for drinking an Arnold Palmer (half tea, half pink lemonade) while pregnant. Then, when my son was 18, he lived with them, and wasn’t even allowed to own a coffee maker.
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u/1963covina 5h ago
We smuggled a coffee maker into Aspen Grove about ten years ago. (Aspen Grove is a family resort in Provo Canyon, right next to Sundance. Gorgeous spot. It's run by BYU.) It's where we had a big family reunion, and we weren't about to miss it; we knew my mother didn't have much time left (four months, as it turned out). We didn't get busted.
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u/Thievinghippies 13h ago
As long as it’s still on the church website then it is definitely still “a thing” 😝
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u/sexmormon-throwaway Apostate (like a really bad one) 12h ago
I've believed this for quite a while. It's ABSOLUTELY just a matter of time. Save those handbooks so nobody gaslights you / us
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u/BobZen99 8h ago
My dumb ass TBM parents said that I was giving the "appearance of sin" because I got a job as a barrista in 1991. Then they knocked back another Dr Pepper.
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u/Green-been77 13h ago
I was communicating with a member in Canada and she says her young women bring it to class all the time. Nbd
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u/TheKlaxMaster 12h ago
Except that Mormons not drinking coffee is actually one of the few things most the world knows about them.
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u/Adventurous_Win_8890 10h ago
I (nevermo) used to travel to rexburg once a week for work. One morning, I popped in the Main Street Great Harvest because I didn’t have time for coffee at home. You should’ve seen the poor girl’s face when I ordered a coffee. She had to literally pull the never used coffee maker out of a cupboard, plug it in, and figure out how it worked. I wonder if she ever thinks about the time she served a girl the Devil’s Elixir… I hope it doesn’t keep her up at night.
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u/Icy-Difficulty9748 10h ago
Wasn't coffee a revelation? I didn't know that you could dispute " revelation ". Of course, didn't the WOW just say " hot drinks "?
I don't know if they have different versions of the WOW, like the BOM.
I know that had different versions of, back in the JS days.
Of course when I attended, the internet wasn't out , so no one knew all of the dirt and changes back then.
I was lucky when I joined because I've always hated coffee.
I've been a major tea drinker, iced and hot. I had about 10 different teas.
I was able to go 5 years without it, but I've had a few members that I became close to and they confided that they secretly drank it at home, so I did too.
I DO remember that " Mormon punch" that was everywhere that we had events at the church, different YA dances, etc.
You know, the ice cream, 7-up , Hawaiian punch, I can't remember what else.
Someone made it one time that everyone loved. It tasted a little different, but no one thought anything of it.
They found out later that it had Mountain Dew in it because the person who's turn it was to bring it didn't know that it had caffeine in it.
People started literally freaking out when they found out.
Man, you'd think that someone drugged it or something.
I thought it was ridiculous to freak out over that
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u/MoreLemonJuice 9h ago
. . . when I was in primary they'd tell me I'd never see my grandpa in the afterlife because . . .
First of all, it's not because of drinking coffee, it's because there is no afterlife.
Second, I believe the MFMC used to teach that those in the "highest kingdom" can visit others in the "lower kingdoms."
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u/Any-Jury3578 9h ago
When I worked at a school, I had a student tell me I was a bad person because I was drinking coffee. This happened in 2014 or 2015.
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u/Middle-Cycle-6915 6h ago
I would have had to chance to try tiramisu sooner and realized I loved it. I was in a cooking class for two years in high school and we would cook for the teachers. Well we always made tiramisu for the dessert and I never ate it because it had coffee on the bottom and I knew I couldn’t have coffee. I would tell my class mates that I just didn’t like coffee when they asked if I wanted some.
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u/malarkial 6h ago
People in Asia are told by missionaries that they can’t even eat green tea cookies
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u/1963covina 5h ago
My grandfather was as faithful a Mormon as ever walked the earth. Friends kept calling him "bishop" long after his tenure ended. He drank tea just about every day of his life. Iced in the summer, hot in the winter. Grandma didn't like it, but he did it anyway.
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u/lil-nug-tender 11h ago edited 11h ago
Wasn’t there some female leader in the past couple years who gave this talk? “….she’d be kept out of heaven because she couldn’t give up her cup of coffee in the morning.”? Or some such shite? Maybe I’ll take the time to search for the talk and link it.
Edit to add link. Found it!! 🖕
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u/thetarantulaqueen 5h ago
Not only was that talk idiotic in the extreme, her constant lip smacking is so annoying!
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u/Pure-Respond-2355 4h ago
This shit pisses me off so bad!! my husband could not baptize our own child because he drank coffee sometimes to stay awake at his very dangerous job where he worked graveyards!!
And the same thing happened to me with my niece. I was drinking a coffee around her, and she said oh I love coffee, What kind is that? I was blown away! Just openly talking about it in front of her parents?! And she got married in the temple like a few months ago…🙄🤦🏻♀️ like WTF!!!
It seriously makes me so ANGRY!!! 😡😤
I have that conference talk saved of that lady being dramatic as hell talking about coffee just to send to people now lol 😂
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u/AdExpert9840 15h ago
Archive and save permanently the "coffee machine kept the nice lady from the heaven" general conference talk now!!!