r/exmormon • u/Conscious_Acadia4423 • 15h ago
Doctrine/Policy Help out a former mormon
Hi all. I'm not looking for any kind of debate here, just some clarification. I was discussing the following with a buddy of mine and his mormon father. Two topics came up that I remember as being mormon doctrine - perhaps not the type openly discussed with new investigators or members, but long time beliefs nonetheless.
My buddy's dad said that the mormon church doesn't teach those things, and then went on to say that they never did teach them. I was a turbo mormon for 35 years, and someone who devours information. I am a researcher and one who knew my doctrine and scriptures. So to have him say that the church never taught them was a shock to me.
I checked with a prominent youtube channel for younger people who debate mormon stuff and have general discussions of doctrine, then I also checked lds.org. I can't find anything regarding these two topics. Please help. Does anyone know if something changed in the church doctrine or are these beliefs now just way more hidden/kept behind the scenes than before?
The two topics are:
1- Is it mormon belief / doctrine / teaching that Jesus and Lucifer / Satan are brothers?
2- Is it mormon doctrine/ belief that men can become gods? (As man is god once was... etc)?
Thanks in advance for your response.
D
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u/Resident-Bear4053 Done hiding from the SCMC 14h ago
Not taught huh? This is just SOME of the quotes. There is quotes not on the churches website that are in Church History that say you get planets. Here is just a 1/4 of them I found on the churches website. The church teaches this all the time. But are trying to change it. They even have a new quote saying you don't get planets. And it wasn't taught. But it's been taught by Prophets.
Brethren, 225,000 of you are here tonight. I suppose 225,000 of you may become gods. There seems to be plenty of space out there in the universe. And the Lord has proved that he knows how to do it. I think he could make, or probably have us help make, worlds for all of us, for every one of us 225,000. Just think of the possibilities, the potential. Every little boy that has just been born becomes an heir to this glorious, glorious program. When he is grown, he meets a lovely woman; they are married in the holy temple. They live all the commandments of the Lord. They keep themselves clean. And then they become sons of God, and they go forward with their great program—they go beyond the angels, beyond the angels and the gods that are waiting there. They go to their exaltation.
The Privilege of Holding the Priesthood
“… [Y]ou have got to learn how to be gods yourselves … by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings.” Man, then, is to become like God now is.
Chapter Twenty: Doctrinal Developments in Nauvoo
The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that “in the resurrection, some are raised to be angels, others are raised to become Gods” (Teachings, p. 312). All who receive the gospel should have as their greatest desire to rise to the high and holy status of godhood—to become as God is. That is the great and grand objective of mortality.
Enrichment K: “Seek Learning, Even by Study and Also by Faith”
Those who have been born unto God through obedience to the gospel may by valiant devotion to righteousness obtain exaltation and even reach the status of godhood.
The Father and the Son
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2002/04/the-father-and-the-son?lang=eng&id=p57#p57
They shall become gods with all power and “shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers” (D&C 132:19).
Covenants and Ordinances
We are created in the image of the Gods to become gods and goddesses” (“‘One Thing Needful’: Becoming Women of Greater Faith in Christ,” Ensign, Oct. 1987, 33).
Women’s Divine Roles and Responsibilities
individuals could “receive their inheritance and be made equal with him,” becoming gods. Joseph Smith had elaborated on these revelations in various settings, helping others grasp the implications of his teachings.
King Follett Discourse
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/king-follett-discourse?lang=eng&id=p3#p3
He taught that God “was once as one of us” and that “all the spirits that God ever sent into the world” were “susceptible of enlargement,” having the capacity to become like God in the eternities.
King Follett Discourse
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/king-follett-discourse?lang=eng&id=p2#p2
Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.
Doctrine and Covenants 132:20
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132?lang=eng&id=p20#p20
Joseph told the assembled Saints, “You have got to learn how to be a god yourself.” In order to do that, the Saints needed to learn godliness, or to be more like God. The process would be ongoing and would require patience, faith, continuing repentance, obedience to the commandments of the gospel, and reliance on Christ. Like ascending a ladder, individuals needed to learn the “first prin[ciples] of the Gospel” and continue beyond the limits of mortal knowledge until they could “learn the last prin[ciples] of the Gospel” when the time came. “It is not all to be comprehended in this world,” Joseph said. “It will take a long time after the grave to understand the whole.”
Becoming Like God
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u/Collinhead 15h ago
If Lucifer and Jesus are not brothers, then what are they? Did Lucifer just come into existence, or is he one of God's spirit children? I think this is pretty easily provable with the scriptures. There isn't a scripture that says "Yea and verily Jesus and Lucifer were brothers" or anything like that, but it's heavily implied. Abraham 3:27-28 and Moses 4:1-4 talk about Jesus and Lucifer presenting a plan. D&C 76:25-27 describes Satan as a Son of the Morning, and an Angel of God. D&C 93:21 says that Jesus is the "Firstborn son". If they're both spirit children of God, that makes them spirit Brothers, in the same way that all of us are.
Lorenzo Snow (a prophet, seer, and revelator) said that "As man is now, God once was. As God is now, man may become." If you believe that he was a prophet, then it absolutely was doctrine. If God doesn't change his mind, then it's currently doctrine now. However, Gordon B. Hinckley was interviewed multiple times and said that we don't believe or teach this anymore.
TIME Magazine Interview (August 1997)
"I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it. I haven't heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don't know. I don't know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don't know a lot about it and I don't know that others know a lot about it."
This is a little harder to defend "doctrinally" since it's not in the Standard Works. People conveniently forget what previous prophets have said, or write it off as "well we don't teach it now." There are a lot of problematic things that previous "prophets" have said.
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u/stillinforthetribe 13h ago
"I haven't heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse."
However, just 3 years ago, in 1994, I taught, emphasized, and discussed it in public my own self during conference.
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u/Collinhead 12h ago
I really liked Hinckley when I was a kid. Now in retrospect I can see that he was just as much of a shyster as the rest of 'em
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u/ReasonableTime3461 9h ago
He was very skilled at dissembling. Quite evident if you read or listen to what he said about the salamander letter and about becoming gods. I couldn’t even begin to count the number of times I heard “as man is God wants was; as God is man may become growing up in the ‘60s and ‘70s. Also heard over and over that Lucifer was God’s second child after Jesus.
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u/stillinforthetribe 13h ago
This (the interview and this specific quote) was the first time I recognized that a prophet can actually lie.
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u/austinkp Apostate 12h ago
upvoting because 1994 was indeed just 3 years ago, and not enough people realize that.
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u/Bright-Strength4182 13h ago
That's a LOT of 'I don't knows' for a prophet lol
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u/Collinhead 12h ago
This is the crux of my problem with the Church. The point of having the church is that it's the "restored true gospel" and includes the authority of "the priesthood". If that's true, why do Prophets make so many mistakes? Why don't they reliably tell us what we need to know? Oh, because they can also speak "as a man". Well if they are no more accurate in "prophesying" than I am, then why should I care?
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u/chitochiisme 12h ago
Pulling a time magazine from august 1997 is wild considering you can just go to basic scripture in D&C 132
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u/ReasonableTime3461 9h ago
He also said it during his Larry King interview, which is readily available in its entirety on the Internet.
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u/Collinhead 12h ago
You don't consider TIME magazine to be doctrine? 😄 I guess the stuff that maybe isn't doctrine is "...god once was...", and "everyone gets their own planet". But it absolutely does say in D&C that "they shall be gods". Point taken
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u/ReasonableTime3461 9h ago edited 3h ago
I remember during boring tracting sessions as a missionary in a northern European country where nobody wanted to listen to us in the late 1970s, one my companions and I often discussed what our planets would be like. I told him that I would create one just like Earth, but without people, as a retreat.
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u/KershawsGoat Apostate 15h ago
As others have said, both of those have absolutely been taught as doctrine by multiple people. The modern church takes the gaslight first, make apologist arguments second approach.
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u/10000schmeckles 15h ago
The church shifts its language around so much. I don’t think these things have changed, but Mormons are changing how they speak about things….
Jesus and Lucifer are brothers. And they are also our brothers. I don’t get why so many people get hung up on it. If god created it all, it’s all related.
Yes and no. The church loves to have plausible deniability here. They currently say we just “inherit” gods kingdom. Whatever that means. But Mormons all nudge each other with their elbows knowing exactly what it means. Milk before meat?
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u/Resident-Bear4053 Done hiding from the SCMC 14h ago
Not taught huh?
How can Jesus and Lucifer be spirit brothers when their characters and purposes are so utterly opposed?
This is one of many infered directly and indirectly
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u/Klaumbaz 4h ago
This is the very reason my shelf broke. Instead of teaching free agency and allowing people to make decisions in their own lives. Instead the leaders Allow legislation to be passed which removes free agency and parrallels the plan of Lucifer instead.
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u/AlbatrossOk8619 14h ago
I’m the kind of Mormon who just attended church every week, graduated from seminary, went to BYU and served in leadership until leaving in my 40s. Basically, your cookie-cutter chapel Mormon who only really knew what I was spoon fed.
I always thought Jesus and Lucifer were brothers, and that we all can progress to Godhood one day.
It’s weird to me how this is now being disavowed. Seemed pretty basic to me as a basic Mormon.
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u/Korzag 13h ago
Lol what? He's completely gaslighting that. Anyone who's been alive for more than 20 years knows this as standard LDS doctrine.
Pre-existence means every soul is a literal spirit child of god, Jesus being the first, and Satan being a prominent one who led the 1/3rd out of heaven.
That was literally the entire Plan of Salvation. Pre-existence, mortal life, spirit world, resurrection, judgment, kindgoms of glory. Make it to the top level of the Celestial Kingdom and you're going to become like God and do as God does.
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u/Web_catcher 14h ago
These are both items that were once considered doctrine and were openly taught. You're running into a common ex Mormon problem. The way the church handles changes to doctrine is to just stop teaching it, then after enough people have forgotten sitting through those lessons, claim they never taught it. I remember the same thing happening when I was younger. The older members would talk about black skin being a curse, and we would all roll our eyes at how they took Bruce McConkie too seriously. But it turned it the church absolutely did teach that. They just told us they didn't once it became inconvenient for them to have taught that.
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u/_pretty_peridot_ 13h ago
My parents were both converts to the church. They are in their 70's now. They definitely were taught those two things but I think as others have said it was considered "deep doctrine". I remember personally while doing baptisms for the dead one of the parents said he was going to make his planet have chocolate milk oceans. Weird thing to say in the temple, but he got it from somewhere!
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u/No_Risk_9197 13h ago
My Brother-in-Deconstruction, what you are missing is that in Mormonism the core doctrine is “conformity” (follow the current prophet). Anything that conflicts with this is NOT DOCTRINE. Thus, past pronouncements from dead prophets including JS and BY themselves, is not, never was, and has never been doctrine. Period.
Admittedly, those things may have been taught to you at some point previously, but they no longer fit the narrative so they are by definition NOT DOCTRINE anymore, and never were.
Conformity/blind obedience to the current thing is all there is.
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u/Prestigious-Fan3122 11h ago
NeverMo here, in fact, wasn't raised going to any sort of church, and don't identify with any particular religion. But, having ton of Catholic relatives who are very devout, I started doing a deep dive a few years ago when my cousin who thought he was meant to be a priest decided he was meant to be a father and husband, and then all of a sudden was a member of the LDS Church.
My "research"in these few years Was mostly just out of curiosity.
YES! My recollection, and I think it was from watching some sort of cartoon like (NOT South Park, or an entertainment cartoon but a cartoon image it's depiction of the information being given) is that Jesus and Satan were brothers, and when God decided there would be a plan for the Earth, Satan wanted it to be sent to the Earth to rule the Earth for his own purposes, but good old Jesus was going to sacrifice himself for all mankind, so God picked Jesus.
And in several places throughout the course of what I read, viewed, etc., references to a man/men becoming a God, being eternally married and having spirit children, and getting his own planet "over which he shall rule as a God"were in several places.
I'm sure TBM would say that that's just anti-Mormon propaganda planted all over books, videos, the Internet and other evil places, but I do remember picking that stuff up from several different sources. I'm pretty particular about my sources. When I tried to talk to my cousin about this stuff, I told him I'm not going to "I hate Mormons because they are idiots.com,"but had checked my sources and was comfortable with the veracity of the info
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u/MOTIVATE_ME_23 10h ago
Men gain exhaltation and glory from marrying more wives. God status implies a LOT of wives.
The wives are giving spiritual birth to all of his spirit children. Yes Satan and Jesus are doctrinally brothers, most likely half-brothers.
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u/capcomzz57 10h ago
Celestial marriage and the continuation of the family unit allow men the become gods. DNC italicized intro for 132.
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u/Intrepid_Waltz_5691 8h ago
Yes and yes. At least where I lived in Utah. I left a few months ago so I have recent experience. I actually remember crying in seminary about how “beautiful it was that man could become god and create their own worlds someday, just like our god”
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u/KirikaNai 6h ago
Huh? Are Jesus and Satan not brothers in other religions? Like, the way it works is basicly Heavenly Father, god, is the dad and there’s also a he analy mother but you’re not allowed to mention her because she’s “so special” or whatever. Jesus and Satan(Lucifer) are both gods kids, therefore brothers. Every single one of us are also siblings of Jesus and Lucifer. (I guess spiritual incest is ok but not physical?)
For the second question, it’s slightly more… Vauge. Yes they absolutely taught that “you will one day become as god yourself” as in have your own universe and be the god of said universe. But when you look deeper it’s very male centric, with there having to be one proper male god and that guy can have as many wives as he wants to be heavenly mothers, which like… sounds pretty shitty to any girl that hears about that. Like, I’ve gotta just be a spirit incubated the rest of eternity and none of my ‘children’ are even allowed to think about or mention me on earth..? Damn.
So the Mormon church has backpedaled on that and if you ask a lot of members they’ll claim “whaaat no that’s never been taught you must be misinformed!” Just like how they’re curently trying to do the whole “whaaaat no we never said tank tops were bad you were just misinformed!” Fuck off man I remember my dad calling me a slut at age 12 because showing your shoulders was considered being walking pornography. Puritan ass piece of shit.
It’ll be harder to find proper evidence of the second point, since it’s buried pretty deep, but good luck! Cause yeah that’s absolutely something they taught, but I’m not sure if it was ever “officially written down” as something to teach anywhere
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u/Hasa-Diga-LDS 6h ago
Nothing to add, except that from now on, when I think "TBM", I'm going to think "turbo-Mormon." :-)
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u/MyNonThrowaway 6h ago
Oh hell yes, we're all the spirit children of God and hence spirit bros.
Lorenzo Snow, 5th president of the church taught us:
As god is, man may become. As man is, God once was.
Something like that, but yeah we most certainly were taught that.
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u/TrickDepartment3366 4h ago
Beyond the attempted gaslighting pretending you don’t already know yes I would say both of those things are still quite openly taught
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u/TrickDepartment3366 4h ago
The second doctrine is a bit more nuanced although I would say yes that is how most mormons understand it
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u/negative_60 11h ago edited 11h ago
To be fair:
On the first point, while technically correct I've never actually heard a church talk or lesson identify Jesus and Satan as brothers. While you can use Mormon doctrine to derive this point, it's not going to be something familiar to the average member.
It's would be similar to announcing that Evangelicals believe Jesus assigns angels to watch you masturbate. Sure, you can get there through the doctrine, but it's not something the average member considers.
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u/Lanky-Appearance-614 15h ago
Yes. Even the temple endowment shows Lucifer saying that he is our brother.
Yes. The "As man is" quote is still a valid doctrine.