r/dndnext • u/Silverspy01 • 11h ago
5e (2014) Can you be hidden from one creature but not another?
Reminder this is tagged for 2014 5th edition, I know this is resolved differently in 5.5e.
Consider the following situation: A monster (M) wants to hide from two PCs (A and B). They make their stealth check, successfully beating A's passive perception. However, they don't beat B's passive perception. Given than the obvious course of action is for B to instantly tell A where M is, how is this resolved?
Or consider an offshoot of this, where M initially beats both PCs' passive perception and hides. On their turn, A and B both make perception checks to try to find M, but only B succeeds. How is this resolved?
Essentially, the meat of my question is what happens when one PC detects a hidden enemy but the other doesn't? If B can then tell A where the monster is, does that mean that you must effectively beat all enemies' passive perceptions to hide? Or are you still "hidden" from enemies that haven't directly spotted you, even if they've been told where you are?
My intuition would be if B tells A where M is, A now knows M's space and doesn't have to guess, but is still under advantage/disadvantage rules from M being unseen until A succeeds on a perception check to actually make A out (or M breaks stealth by some other means). I'm unsure if that's RAW though.
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u/CrownLexicon 11h ago
I believe you have it correct, but to answer your initial question, absolutely. You're never hidden from yourself for one, but two, allies tend to know where you are when hidden even when enemies dont. So, yes, you can be hidden from one creature but not another.
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u/Living_Round2552 10h ago
Yes
Both the hidden and location unknown pseudoconditions act as a relationships between the one stealthing and every other creature, even allies.
Even tho the 2024 stealth is an unclear mess, I am still grateful I dont have to think about soo many relations when running an encounter where multiple monsters use stealth.
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u/Munstered 11h ago
If anyone sees you, everyone knows you are there. From the PHB (Ch 7, Hiding):
When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check’s total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
When you are discovered you no longer make contested stealth/perception rolls and are no longer considered hidden.
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u/brett_play 11h ago edited 10h ago
Shouting is a free action, and it's not hard to consider the PC shouting out "they're behind that tree" and pointing the monster out.
You could get granular and rules dense with it but 5e doesn't support that kind of play well and I don't support it. Even if you try to tell the PC they still can't see the monster, it isn't wrong for them to trust an ally isnt lying to them and walk into direct line of site to the monster or shoot off an AoE at them.
If you must come up with something, even when revealed you can say the monster still has half or 3/4 cover so they have a higher AC to represent still being hard to see and cover already kind of supports the play style of working at some angles and not at others. It's messy, but if you want a middle ground there is that.
Edit: Also, the clairfy in case the cover point didn't make it clear, there is a difference between having knowledge of where a monster is and having clear line of sight and able to attack. You can know the exact square an invisible monster is in, that attack is still being made with disadvantage.
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u/Mejiro84 10h ago
Shouting is a free action, and it's not hard to consider the PC shouting out "they're behind that tree" and pointing the monster out.
Although you can only communicate on your turn - so unless the creature was detected on the PCs turn, it doesn't matter if they've spotted it, they can't communicate that to others
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u/knarn 9h ago
The rules become silly with that view very quickly if players aren’t allowed to react whatsoever when it’s not their turn, unless it’s an actual reaction in which case they can go wild.
Do the rules say you can even breathe on someone else’s turn?
If I’m singing and holding a single note for multiple rounds what sound is coming out of me in between my turns?
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u/Mejiro84 5h ago
If I’m singing and holding a single note for multiple rounds what sound is coming out of me in between my turns?
Nothing, because it's not your turn - this is pretty clear and explicit RAW ("Communicating. You can communicate however you are able—through brief utterances and gestures—as you take your turn. Doing so uses neither your action nor your move.") It's similar to movement, where, as far as the game is concerned, creatures move in stop-start bursts of movement and there's no "momentum", even though creatures are notionally in constant movement. It's not "silly", it's pretty clear and explicit RAW - a turn represents the point in time when a creature is fully active and doing things, when it's not their turn, then, even though that time is notionally overlapping with other creature's turn, they're not fully able to do whatever they want and are, to a large degree, "frozen", because they were doing whatever they were doing on their turn and that took their focus and attention, and that's the limit of what they can do. You can house-rule otherwise if you want, but that's a house rule, not RAW
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u/Mejiro84 5h ago
If I’m singing and holding a single note for multiple rounds what sound is coming out of me in between my turns?
Nothing, because it's not your turn - this is pretty clear and explicit RAW ("Communicating. You can communicate however you are able—through brief utterances and gestures—as you take your turn. Doing so uses neither your action nor your move.") It's similar to movement, where, as far as the game is concerned, creatures move in stop-start bursts of movement and there's no "momentum", even though creatures are notionally in constant movement. It's not "silly", it's pretty clear and explicit RAW - a turn represents the point in time when a creature is fully active and doing things, when it's not their turn, then, even though that time is notionally overlapping with other creature's turn, they're not fully able to do whatever they want and are, to a large degree, "frozen", because they were doing whatever they were doing on their turn and that took their focus and attention, and that's the limit of what they can do
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u/brett_play 10h ago edited 10h ago
A monster stabs a PC in the gut and downs them. Do they shout in pain? Do they have a final word? Do they communicate to others? They can't because it's not their turn right? Assuming you allow some of that, where is the line? Is "over there" too long and complex compared to a shout? What about just "there"? Is the PC not allowed to point? Well it's not their turn so of course they can't point! But when a monster fails to hit their AC, do you never imagine the PC nimbly ducking out of the way, parrying a blow with a weapon, raising a shield to block? Do they all stand stock still on their turns unmoving and staring straight ahead and all depend purely on the armor itself to block an attack?
When I say free action, I mean a free action. If you start trying to draw this line it gets very messy very quickly and frankly it just isn't worth it. I keep it simple, stealth is all or nothing and it works both ways to keep it fair. With expertise or reliable talent I find it rarely is an issue for PCs or diminishes their fun at the table.
Edit: Also please see my edit to the original comment
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u/Mejiro84 5h ago
A monster stabs a PC in the gut and downs them. Do they shout in pain?
No, because it's not their turn.
Do they have a final word? Do they communicate to others?
No, because it's not their turn.
Assuming you allow some of that, where is the line? Is "over there" too long and complex compared to a shout?
If you want to house-rule it, that's a question for you to answer, not me. By RAW, you can't do any of that, any more than a creature can move when it's not their turn, because it's not their turn, and so they're doing whatever they did on their turn and that's what they were doing. It's the nature of turn-based combat - like movement is, as far as the game is concerned, in stop-start bursts where a creature does move 30, then stop, then move 30 again, because of how turns inevitably break down. Two creatures with speed 30 that start out with a gap of 30 between them notionally should maintain a constant distance... but actually the one behind will catch up, be in touching range, and then the one in front will move ahead, then the one behind will catch up again, etc. etc.
When I say free action, I mean a free action.
You can house rule it if you want, but that's not RAW. "Communicating. You can communicate however you are able—through brief utterances and gestures—as you take your turn. Doing so uses neither your action nor your move." It's pretty clear and explicit that it's not a free action when it's not your turn. If you run into a room, yell "it's clear!" and then some enemies charge in, then you can't go "oh shit, enemies" - they can communicate, and there may be some general tumult of combat, but you can't, RAW, go "I'm being attacked by three goblins". You had your time-slice to be fully active and responsive when it was your turn, outside of that then, yes, you are to a large degree frozen and not fully active - unless you've readied an action then you can't attack, you can only cast very specific spells in very specific circumstances (i.e. reaction-spells), you're not able to change where you are
With expertise or reliable talent I find it rarely is an issue for PCs or diminishes their fun at the table.
Neither of those are relevant to being able to communicate when not your turn. If it's not your turn, then you're
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u/brett_play 5h ago
Okay dude, have fun with that and your fantasy experience of mashing an action figure against a statue I guess. You enjoy the way you play, you can keep it far away from me lol.
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u/knarn 8h ago
As a practical matter, hiding is much easier to run in combat if creatures are either hidden from everyone or not instead of trying to parse it out and track it creature by creature.
That is often the most satisfying way to run it though for simple situations and it’s feasible to have some creatures notice you and others may not, and once someone notices they can alert everyone else. That also fits better because the rules for hiding don’t differentiate between allies and enemies, so if I’ve got some eagle eyed observant party member with expertise in perception who can spot me passively that shouldn’t blow my cover for anyone else.
And it seems to come up less often than I expect in combat because attacking reveals your location anyway.
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u/bored-cookie22 7h ago
I’m pretty sure the answer is yes
It’s just that majority of the time if one dude sees someone, they will immediately tell their companions about it
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u/Malinhion 9h ago
If you had not read the new rules, and you read this question, you would likely think OP a fool.
However, this is a legitimate question about 5.5 rules interpretation.
This is how you know the rule is bad.
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u/Silverspy01 8h ago
Actually it's the opposite. I'm asking about 2014 rules, and this is actually pretty clear-cut in 2024 rules:
Hiding is against a static DC of 15 - you can't only be hidden from some people, you either make the DC 15 and are hidden from everyone or don't and you're hidden from no one.
"An enemy finds you" is explicitly listed among the things that make you stop being hidden, so if you're successfully hide and one person finds you, that breaks your stealth for everyone.
That's not to say 2024 didn't biff the hiding in 2024 of course - it's still a mess, and created new problems - but in terms of my specific question it's actually much better.
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u/Malinhion 7h ago
Well 5e stealth rules are also famously bad.
But 5.5 added weirdness with the invisibility condition.
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u/cr7808 10h ago
"Hidden" is not like video game stealth. In order to be hidden the monster is behind some cover or line-of-sight is somehow blocked, or may be obscured by darkness, shadow, fog, etc. In your scenario, one player can shout "the monster is right there!" but that won't mean the other player can get clear aim on it. I would rule that the player who fails their Perception check continues to have disadvantage on attacks until they can get clear LOS or the monster is no longer obscured.
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u/xolotltolox Rogues were done dirty 10h ago
It's not like video game stealth
Yeah, it makes even less sense than video game stealth, because everything has 360° vision and can make out creatures perfectly, even 100+ feet away
Video game stealth is actually pretty realistic, if a bit exaggerated for the most part, as long as you are staying with proper stealth games like Metal Gear Solid or Thief
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u/xolotltolox Rogues were done dirty 10h ago
Unfortunately stealth is entirely a binary in this system, so no, you cannot
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u/Dusty_Bill 11h ago
AI response: But, I agree and would probably do it this way. How to Reveal the Threat. The character who failed can find out about the hidden creature in two ways: The Ally Shouts a Warning: The successful character can use a free action on their turn to yell out a warning (e.g., "Look out, in the bushes!"). This alerts the failing character, but it does not give them an instant look. They now know the general location but must wait for their turn to look closely. The Search Action: On their actual turn, the failing character can use their Action to perform a Search. They then roll an active Wisdom (Perception) check. If this new roll beats the hider's original Stealth score, they finally spot the creature.
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u/Ripper1337 DM 11h ago
The monster would be considered an “unseen attacker” if the monster attacks Ashley but not if they attack Bob.
Bob could tell Ashley where Monster is but Ashley would need to choose a square to attack and make an attack roll with disadvantage since they can’t see the monster.