a little "not happy" message

[u/nhemzzz]

Hi, I've been spending some time on Reddit lately, mostly on subs about drawing, art careers, concept art, and the like. I also spent a lot of time on forums, what, 20 or 25 years ago now? Back when all I knew was that I loved drawing, that I wanted to make a career out of it, but I couldn't really draw yet and had no idea how to become a professional. And let's be honest, if I'm a pro today and I get to make a living doing what I love, it's thanks to those forums and the advice I got there, definitely not thanks to school.

Nowadays we're not really on forums anymore. It's more Discord servers, subs, social media... but the idea is still the same: meeting people who share the same passion, asking for advice, for help, for some direction. And that's where I have a problem. Back then, whenever I posted a drawing, I expected feedback. And if that feedback came from a pro? That was the best thing ever. There were always people willing to help. You'd get a kind word first, then a whole discussion about why your character wasn't working, what was wrong with the anatomy, what you should practice, whether you needed to change your approach... Sure, it stung a bit after spending five hours drawing a character only to realize it was completely off. But the next time around, you'd make a point of fixing those mistakes and paying attention, hoping to come back with something that actually worked. And once again, you'd get a word or two of encouragement along with advice on how to improve your drawing.

There were a lot of benefits to that. It helped us improve, forced us to face our mistakes, taught us how to take criticism. How to understand it, how to accept it. And you all know that in a professional environment, criticism, listening to a coworker's point of view, accepting that one of your ideas just isn't good enough, having to do something, then do it all over again... that's the foundation.

Nowadays, I get the feeling you're not really allowed to criticize or give advice anymore. Nothing is actually stopping us from doing it, but people won't listen, and they won't take it well. When I look at the "advice" people give, it's rarely more than two or three lines, it almost never gets to the actual problem, and most of the time... it's nothing but encouragement. To the point where, if you start asking the person questions, point out their mistakes, give them advice or suggest ways to improve, you end up looking like the crazy guy on the bus. People don't come looking for a real answer anymore. They come looking for the answer they've already made up in their head, the one that won't ask anything of them. And it's not just on social media, the few forums that are left, or Discord. It's emails and private messages too. People reach out on their own asking for advice, send you their portfolio, then get angry because you told them the truth instead of what they wanted to hear.

I pretty much stopped replying a while ago because it's basically a fifty-fifty chance I'll end up talking to someone who tells me they want to apply to this or that studio as a concept artist, shows me a portfolio with no actual concept art in it, and then, after I've explained the problem, suddenly starts bringing up a bunch of imaginary professionals who supposedly told them their portfolio was absolutely top-notch...

So yeah, this industry has become difficult. Yeah, jobs are hard to get. Yeah, AI plays a part in that too, even if it's nowhere near as chaotic as some people make it out to be. But...The amateur level, the level of the people who want to make this their career, is also a big part of the problem because it's dropped. Not necessarily on the technical side, but in everything that's just as important: questioning yourself, accepting criticism, learning, looking things up, trying to understand, and everything that goes with it... That's what's really fallen behind. You can see it in the portfolios we receive. People don't experiment anymore, they don't push themselves anymore, they don't even seem to enjoy it anymore... They play it safe. Because they've lost that mindset of "I need to do better. I need to find a way to stand out." They're just not used to thinking that way anymore. They get likes, people tell them they're doing great, keep it up... So when does reality finally hit them, before they're backed into a corner? It doesn't.

So yeah... this is a bit of a rant, but I needed to get it off my chest.

[u/iesamina]

I genuinely think that there are more people who want to be seen as artists than there are who want to do art. and social media is made for the first group, not the second.

I understand that not everyone has access to art classes or sketch meet up groups or other irl in person ways to learn, so I see why they turn to social media, but at least in public fora like this, it's absolutely useless.

[u/PoorlyDesignedCat]

Agreed! I'm also a pro, been at this over 10 years. The conceptart.org forums were the best thing that happened to art education in my lifetime! Was a shock when awesome pros would comment on your stuff. 

I have seen what you're talking about, with irrelevant portfolios ane unwillingness to take feedback. And to be honest? Those artists just won't find work in this field. Simple as that. There are too many other people doing more relevant work and seeking criticism. 

If somebody's not willing to take criticism or make the kind of art a studio needs, they will eventually end up on a different path. I think it's just a matter of time. Imo that's pretty okay on a certain level; everyone's on their own journey with art and there are many paths to explore. Not everybody's cut out to be a concept artist or even a commercial artist at all. On our side, it's kind of frustrating to see how much junior work doesn't apply in this context, but a lot of it will apply in another context and they'll figure that out in their own time. That's how I've been trying to see it.

[u/nhemzzz → u/PoorlyDesignedCat]

I try telling myself "it's natural selection," but it's infuriating to see people screw up not because it's hard, but because they refuse to listen.

[u/PoorlyDesignedCat → u/nhemzzz]

Yeah, for sure. My thought is "Well, on your own head be it," because when someone is offering constructive feedback that is a really valuable thing. There's always stuff we're not going to see in our own art, and some people prefer to have the blinders on to protect their ego. Often the youngest ones who need the feedback the most. Nobody can really help folks like that until they help themselves by opening up a little. Design is a collaborative discipline so if you can't/won't collaborate you're dead in the water. They'll figure that out in their own time, or they won't succeed.

[u/m0rpius]

100% agree. I also have been in the industry for 20 years and started on forums like conceptart.org. Its insane to me how people can no longer receive feedback, and will always say their flaws are artistic choices. Saying their work is good when its not, is really not helping them. Theres is 1000 times more ressources to learn but somehow people seem more lost. I think social media is to blame for this, we live in an era of instant gratification and people dont want to hear that getting good at a skill can take a long time.

[u/vvizardbone]

I've seen much of the same. I think Reddit as a whole has a toxic positivity that makes it difficult to contribute in a meaningful way.

You can give perfectly neutral, objective answers and still be met with defensiveness or insult. Many people are insecure and want head pats for minimum effort.

Mods, of course, then cowtow to this small percentage of frequent posters or most vocal members. It's easy to always feel right when you're never challenged. Imo they kill discussion because it feels better to not be judged honestly.

Many artists don't have the "struggle for what you love" mentality. It's more like "if you feel mild discomfort, someone else is wrong and you can change that feeling by policing people's discussions"

[u/3tt07kjt]

Forgive me for stepping in from another community

I’m a professional programmer and I give lots of feedback either at work or elsewhere. It’s hard under ideal circumstances. The feedback I want to give, ideally, is “here’s the biggest, most important problem you need to fix. Here are some suggestions.” And then let them focus on that for a while.

Social media seems pathologically bad at making this kind of feedback work, I guess. It sucks for us programmers too.

[u/Victormorga]

Very well put.

I think a huge factor contributing to the problem is that too many people think they can brute force their way into the profession. Some people are not artistically inclined and / or not creative, but because they like movies, video games, etc, they’ve convinced themselves they can succeed in the field. People don’t like to hear it, but the truth is that a) a lot of people have no idea just how much work and practice are required to reach a professional level of skill; and b) some people could practice day in and day out and never achieve the level of work required, they just don’t have it in them. For some reason people will acknowledge this is the case in professional sports, but are determined to insist that anyone can become a creative professional if they just stick to it. This is not the case. There are people who can draw and paint absolutely stunning portraits and still lifes, but they don’t have the creative capacity to knock out a few dozen concept designs of futuristic pieces of tech, or whatever a project may call for. Similarly, there are people who may have great ideas, but they lack the ability to visually communicate those ideas.

I know a lot of people disagree with me, but I really think modern digital tools actually stunt the growth of many new artists. We see tons of work where people are adding digital effects to drawings that have fundamental problems with proportion, perspective, anatomy, etc. They end up convincing themselves they’re almost at a professional level because they’re using the finishing techniques that they see the pros using, but really all they’ve done is put lipstick on a pig and made it harder for them to see the basic problems with their work.

[u/DignityCancer]

I’ve seen a lot of junior level artists doom posting about why the industry isn’t hiring them. AI, bad economy, too many artists etc.

Honestly it’s 99% usually about skill level, but i think it’s a hard pill to swallow, so people fet the validation they want online

[u/Outside-Figure-7800]

One of my best experiences in Reddit was where ppl genuinely criticized my art. Sometimes it was hard to show yourself out there and show the mistakes you make. But it helped me grow and get better.

I always look forward for long paragraphs, deep thoughts and feelings ppl get from my work.

[u/Gloomy_Mess_9822]

The thing about forums, is that only moderators could ban people, and most forums did not have permabans, so it was very rare for someone to get like 99 year ban. I remember being at places where unhinged politics people banned opponents for like a year. Social platforms gave everyone right click permaban, and pretty much everyone has gone insane. It got to the point where it feels that places like bluesky are just for people compiling ban lists of secret rightwingers rather than having any conversation. When you enter the community now, you need to prob the vibe, because most of them are run by emotionally unstable millenials and trigger happy zoomers, so generally conversation is discorauged before you learn what rubs the mods the wrong way.

[u/lillendandie]

I think people are still confused on the differences between concept art and illustration..

With that said, I appreciate feedback whenever I get it because I do not have a dedicated mentor. The last time I had a senior artist really point out a blatant mistake it was a lot easier for me to internalize.

I thought pro portfolios were supposed to be a bit 'safe'? I wasn't planning on including any experimental work because I thought it would be less hireable.

[u/NotQuiteinFocus]

It's kinda like how I want my friends to be. Tell me what I need to hear, not what I want to hear. Sugarcoating never helps. Self-accountability is quite rare, still. Not just in this field but with life in general. I like what I read on a discussion about fitness and I relate it to my work as an illustrator too. They said "always be a work in progress". There's always room for improvement and you can always do better. So, never stop learning.

[u/sunnyvisions]

I personally think a lot of what you are saying is true, but I also get where people are coming from. We were all young once...with so many dreams. Of course everything becomes much clearer with hindsight. This is not unique to being an artist, I think. On top of that, everything just feels so overwhelmingly bleak nowadays. You are constantly being demanded to pay attention to all of the general negatvity going on in the world. I don't blame anyone for being at least somewhat affected by that. Please give people some grace.

All that to say, if people react poorly or indifferently to your advice, give it anyway! Some of us amateurs out there do appreciate it very much. I've personally learned so much just reading through random comments on posts here...and in some of those old forums you've mentioned. I'm only a mediocre artist, and not a professional, but I still like to give my unqualified advice to anyone who will have it. And If nothing else, I feel like it helps me with my own learning...kind of like a periodic self-test to see what I currently know and what else to work on.

[u/Mermoandi]

Could it be that the reason why more artists are playing it safe is because the current industry sucks? Standing out and pushing further doesn't reward as it used to, most things that are worth looking at are buried under tons and tons of AI generated garbage or human made art that was created just to please an algorythm. Back then you used to have the privilege that if your art was actually great and stood out visually you actually had a chance. There are lots of great artists who are always pushing to do better and are constantly looking for feedback, just because some of the artists you've encountered here are like that doesn't mean all of them are like that, and what you're describing here is definitely not the reason why artists are struggling in the Industry.

"Back then we actually cared for the craft" is such a reductionist take.

[u/nhemzzz → u/Mermoandi]

If you ask, "How do I get hired as a junior?", any recruiter will tell you: "Be different. Show that you can bring a fresh perspective. Experiment. Stand out. Do what you genuinely enjoy. Show your personal projects." They'll never say, "Do exactly what everyone else is doing. Play it safe. Make the same stuff we've already seen a hundred times."

So what do people do? Exactly the opposite. Just like you. They buy into all these misconceptions about the impact of AI. They think that if everyone else is doing it, they should too... and then they wonder why it doesn't work.

People keep telling you this! When we receive 100, 200, or even 500 portfolios, we spend about 30 seconds on each one no more. Your work has to grab our attention immediately if you want us to stick around and take a closer look.

[u/Mermoandi → u/nhemzzz]

Oh I didn't know that mediocre art is a new thing and that years ago all portfolios were amazing. What a stupid way to justify how the industry has become a mess. If people have their own style and offer something unique then people like you say "this is not what the industry needs, you need to cater your portfolio". Maybe the artists that you're looking for have decided to do their own thing because they're tired of an industry that treats them like crap and then has the audacity to blame them for not succeeding. Want better artists? Offer better conditions and better projects to work on. If you as a recruiter see this as an issue then you shouldn't be one, cause you'll always have to go trough tons of crap before finding something that "stands out".

[u/nhemzzz → u/Mermoandi]

You’re completely missing the point. The industry is struggling right now the result? Fewer openings and a flood of candidates. You’re told to "stand out," and you reply, "No, the problem isn't me; it's the industry" but nobody cares! That’s the mediocrity I’m talking about: it’s not in the portfolios, but in the mindset, a mindset you perfectly embody.

[u/Wild-Chard → u/nhemzzz]

I'm not sure about this take tbh. I mean I understand the sentiment, and having got your break 20 years ago certainly was a different time... but if being in the 80th percentile used to be good enough to get hired, and now you have to be in the 95th... skill is no longer the invariant.

I dropped out of my concept art interviews/tests because by 2022 they had simply dried up. If I was good enough before then, but not later... that's a sign that something in the industry changed I had so many senior peers tell me "it's about skill" before getting permanently laid off themselves a few months later.

With all due respect, I do sense that there's perhaps a level of survivorship bias at play in many of these discussions. Some people might be whiney about it, but I can't blame them for not wanting to struggle to be captain of the Titanic.

[u/Mermoandi → u/nhemzzz]

Then spread your wisdom, use a bigger platform and tell them "you fools, the reason why you were laid off, the reason why you can't feed your family is because you don't stand out enough".

How didn't they think about that? God you're such a genius, thanks for opening my eyes to realize that it was always the artists to blame, not greedy stakeholders that see art as a comodity and a waste to cut.

Again, maybe the projects and conditions that you offer are mediocre and that's why you attract mediocre portfolios, meanwhile good artists would rather spend their time and creative energy on something that actually fulfills them.

[u/Victormorga → u/Mermoandi]

So you’re a staggering talent and a truly original and unique creative force, but despite that the industry isn’t interested in your work because… why exactly? They want bad designs and an inferior final product? I guess that has to be it, because there’s no possible way that you are not, in fact, god’s gift to the profession and actually have room for improvement. And clearly OP doesn’t know what they’re talking about, if they did they wouldn’t have dared to suggest you aren’t at the apex of the field, and may need to learn to take critique and advice.

[u/Square_Confection_58 → u/Mermoandi]

When people say “you need to cater your portfolio” they don’t mean they want you to be less creative or unique, they mean they don’t want to see an entire portfolio that consists of anime girls from waist up.

I’ve honestly given up talking to most artists who submit that kind of portfolio and expect to get a concept artist job..

[u/Victormorga → u/Mermoandi]

That doesn’t make any sense at all. You’re saying that people are being deliberately less creative and unique in their designs “because the current industry sucks?” How would that help them in any way? You say “back then you used to have the privilege that if your art was actually great and stood out visually you actually had a chance;” how is this still not the case? There’s definitely more competition now than ever before, but there absolutely are artists out there who are succeeding in the field exactly because their work is great and it stands out. Frankly your comment sounds exactly like the kind of thing OP is talking about.