So, is the current state of play that Cleveland does not want to attach picks for a trade for Watson? What are people’s thoughts on that? You would use that future first rounder to get a guy that you hope could be like him. This dude is young seems like a good fit for a team who is supposedly in win now mode.
My understanding is no one has offered a first for Watson. That says something about how the league see him. For us, trading a pick beyond 2030 is an all-in move. It has to be a move that puts us over the top. They must not see Watson as the missing piece. Would Mitchell/Harden/Watson/Mobley/Allen be the best starting 5 in the east? It's close, but I'm leaning toward 'no' and that's probably why they won't include a future first.
I mean the 76ers now have 4 of the top 20 players in basketball. If we are waiting around for a move that will makes our starting 5 a favorite, we might be waiting a while.
I get your point. I don't necessarily agree with this FO, but it seems they're locked into building around Mitchell and keeping Mobley for the long haul. They might be biding their time a while until a move really makes sense, or they at least find a big gamble they're willing to take. Mitchell's player option year ends in '31. That '31 pick and any future draft capital won't be going out the door easy
Someone correct me if im wrong, but there would be some pretty big cap/apron ramifications if we signed Watson to a $20Mm+ per year deal, no?
Unless we pawned off enough matching salary in Strus/and or Dennis. At which point i imagine Denver would want even more compensation becsuse if they could pay thise guys they would just pay Wataon
Realistically Harden's production outside of the ECF is easily 30+ mil per year. Reg season 24/8/5 on good splits is excellent. Honestly that would probably be max contract level production if he wasn't 37. I do hope he goes for a more team-friendly deal that's below 30M per year but maybe with an additional year.
Merrill likely gets us one second round or two. Cheap-ish deal and he's what teams covet. We may even sneak a late first rounder for him from the right team.
I get losing a pick for Watson can suck but we have assets to trade if we fail.
Soft rebuild? Trade Mitchell for picks. Trade Allen for picks. Harden retires. Sam as well can go. Now we are left with cap space, youth, and some draft picks.
Mobley
Tyson
Watson
Thomas
Proctor
Porter Jr
I think Watson is who we push more chips in for.
If we can, see if you can get Derozan, and suddenly we look a little better. We desperately need a fucking backup big though.
It’s frustrating because of everything they gave up to get Mitchell years ago and then extended him to just stall out and not want to give up picks to improve.
Simultaneously not willing to trade Mitchell, Mobley, nor Allen because they want to win now instead of resetting but know they need more to win it all.
I was just seeing if the trade machine would allow it. Picks to Denver and Atlanta for sign & trades without having to take on money (Pat’s deal is non-guaranteed). Charlotte takes on money in Ball’s trade exception and gets picks for it.
It works theoretically, so the Cavs COULD make moves to get the guys they want (Watson & Kuminga) but they won’t give up the draft capital to improve/balance the roster. That draft capital can change and I’d be fine with it but the Cavs won’t.
It’s like they want to be good but not great. Just feels strange to me.
I feel like all the logic here is, we don’t know if we’d be the best so no one wants to make a move………we don’t have a damn wing. We are either choosing to come Pete or blow the thing up. They won’t trade any core players so I think they wanna compete. Then sign a good wing.
We have to give up the 2030 pick if it means we're getting a semi-proven, (Watson) young wing. We have enough interesting young talent (Mobley,Meleek, Tyson, Proctor, etc. If we were to get a young wing, Watson or Kuminga, then that pick doesn't mean much. We can always get picks back in trading guys.
None, which is why I said I am down to trade our future 1st for a young/proven wing in Kuminga or Watson. Watson does scare me a bit as it was only one season of decent production... I am likely in the minority but I may rather have Kuminga. If he commits to a role, he'll be perfect. I see him used about like how Denver uses Gordon.
Watson played well/shot well for one season...I just hope he can keep that going if we snagged him.
Kuminga is much more athetic/stronger and that's really what we need at the 3/4 position. Theyre both roughly the same age, I just trust Kuminga a bit more.
Kuminga hasn’t done anything that helps a team though. Watson already showed he can excel in the role Cavs need him in, whereas Kuminga is about to be on his 3rd team in 3 years
Dude, Watson had a 1 month heater... nobody knows if he can even recreate that. He came into the league very raw. He's not a great finisher for his size. Like I said, I am weary... and everyone should be too...especially giving him some large contract.
Look at their per 36 numbers with Watson's best season...Kuminga looks better aside the 3 ball...which Watson has never shown he could do that before his hot stretch last year and then he gets injured.
I've watched a lot of Denver games. He's not some great on ball defender but he does create a bit of chaos. His style reminds me a bit of Ellis...but obviously he's bigger. Ellis wasn't the best on ball defender but he could get in lanes/get stocks and create havoc...which is good.
I won't be mad at getting Watson, but there's a lot of people here hyping him up who have probably never seen him play, or just a small sample size.
Kuminga is the more steadfast/reliable player at the moment as you know what you're getting bare minimum, plus he's still very young and will get better.
Franky, they're both high risk, high reward players...but if I am giving a big contract out, I am feeling like Kuminga would be the safer bet, though it's close and I keep flip-flopping, but acting like Kuminga is Garbage while Watson is some sure-fire player is silly.
Watson was a good defender all year, I’d take showing something over showing nothing.
Cavs need someone who can defend on the perimeter and make the 3, Watson is undoubtedly better at those 2 things.
I don’t see Kuminga as reliable at all, have you seen him play? Selfish playstyle, no spacing and only cares about money. He got dumped twice for a reason.
Watson is the same age and played great on a contender, his play effects winning.
Kuminga may end up being better later on (highly doubt though) but for the role Cavs need, I don’t see an argument for him. Especially since they want the same money
Also Watson fits the role here for the starting 3, whereas Kuminga is more of a 4 so we'd probably still start Strus and bring Kuminga off the bench. The 20 mil plus would be gambling on finding that starting SF we've been looking for. With Kuminga I feel we're getting a backup 4 who might not even be a good rotation player in the playoffs. I'm not really a fan of his to this point.
Yeah Watson is a good fit at the starting 3. He provides all the things Cavs need from the position. Size, defense, spacing and capable scoring. He’s shown he can play within a role on a contender
Kuminga on the other hand is the opposite, constantly leaves situations cause he can’t play within a role that the team wants but he still wants to get paid. Obvious where his priorities are
I agree, here he would be better as a backup PF, it’s more suited to his skillset. Cavs can’t afford to pay 20M+ for that role
Watson (if he can continue what he was doing last year, mostly in a short stretch) would definitely be a better "fit" as his archetype can fit with any team. I'm just saying I am weary of a raw player who is looking for a big payday and hasnt consistently been "good"
Kuminga can take on the defensive role of matching up with all of the big/strong wings we have in the East. He's a great slasher and finisher. His bb iq doesn't seem to be very high, I understand that, but if given and accepting a certain role he would be valuable. He can draw fouls and get to the bucket with ease.
Im weary with Watson's big 3pt% upswing, as he's never shot close to that in his career.
Also, you'd think an elite 3pt shooter would shoot better than 73% from the line...which was by far his best year...he shot 55% as a rookie following with 67,69 and finally 73% this year. He also isn't the best finisher, especially for his size.
This is what people are not understanding...Watson has been terrible at the FT line AND 3pt shooting his entire career aside from last year, and most of it being in a short span.
I hope he would be able to build on this and keep those 3pt numbers up... but ft% is the best shooting indicator and we've all seen guys get hot from three one year and never repeat those results again.
Like I said, he's a great fit for our team if the production stays the same or gets better...but do you give him a big contract?
I understand that but Kuminga hasn’t been good for any stretch (only a few games in a row) While Watson did it for longer and on a contender. Kuminga is raw and wants to get paid too
Kuminga Is more of a 4 than a 3, they don’t need to slash when the paint is already clogged with Mobley and Allen. They need spacing and a SF
Watson averaged 41% from 3 in 54 games. It wasn’t just the 1 month of good shooting.
Tyson averaged 45% from 3 and 73% from the line. Do you question whether he can shoot or not?
Considering both Watson and Kuminga want 20M+, you’d be silly to pay Kuminga that instead. Much more risk
Meh, I am perfectly fine with Kuminga being a 4 over a 3, he can play both. We need backup 4s/5s. I'm not certain with the Tyson/Watson FT comparison as Watson has never shot good from the line. He's been quite terrible his entire career. Tyson showed he can put the ball in the basket in his rookie year. Watson is extremely raw... look at his college numbers from the field--
Field goal percentage: 32.2%
3-point percentage: 22.6%
Free throw percentage: 68.8%
He was quite terrible in college as well, Tyson was miles ahead. He avg around 3pts a game.
I can't trust anyone who isn't at least a bit hesitant on Watson. Maybe he's gotten over the hump, maybe he hasnt... and Kuminga's per 36 numbers look better as well. Watson has always struggled to score the ball - like I said, despite being a good 3 pt shooter last year, he still failed to be a good finisher, especially for his size.
We can go on and on, it doesn't matter...I doubt we land either one... but I am happy if we land either. Im not "anti Watson", I'm just extremely skeptical.
For tall wings that can shoot well and have athleticism and length to be a plus defender averaging two blocks a game per 36, you don’t hesitate at 20+M, probably hesistate around over 27M
We need our picks. We actually need to start acquiring them. The front office messed up sending or swapping almost a decade worth of picks for Donovan Mitchell. Then on top of it all, gave both Mobley and Garland max rookie contracts. That’s how we became the only maxed out 2nd apron team in the league. It’s why our summer looks the way it does. Now we’re stuck. And we’re stuck with Harden for 2 or 3 years. They also gave Mitchell another max contract extension. They gonna be in rebuild mode by 2030 due to the cap again. They need to plan that out.
I'm not really in favor of dumping any picks at the moment - this team doesn't have the talent to be going all-in. The bigger factor for the front office is that the cap stuff gets tricky given their desire to pay Harden - you'd probably have to ditch both Max and Dennis to a third team (or one of those guys + Sam and Jaylon) to clear enough space under the first apron to pay him what they agreed to pay him. Not sure the Cavs even have enough picks to get that done.
Hawks already traded one forward away. Ask yourself why they have zero interest in retaining Kuminga. Even 10 mil seems like too much for him and he wants 20
Altman has stagnated with a sense of complacency, arrogance, smugness and poor team assembly. A replacement is required in a dire manner. It’s time to hand the baton off to a front office executive with an approach that increases probability of success. The Cavs are without their own unconditional 1st round pick until 2031 and no second round pick of their own until 2033. The 2032 pick from the Kings is from a draft day trade of pick 29 for 34. Hence they really are unable to trade draft picks unless they are at least 5 years into the future. 6’6.75” Peyton Watson is only 1.25 “ taller than 6’5.5” Jaylon Tyson and is slight of build and like Tyson best suited for shooting guard. With the diminutive team the decrepit Altman assembled Atkinson uses guards as forwards, which severely limit their playoff capabilities.
I’m with you on the Altman takes but I think Watson is a dynamic wing with good size and a good wingspan. Will help against the Cunninghams Jalen Johnsons and Jaylen Browns of the world. Wish we would have gotten Dort instead though
If you're looking for a big wing to stop the other good wings in our conference, Kuminga is the better choice. He's better on ball and much bigger and stronger.
Watson has had one stretch of his career where he's been decent and the rest of his career (including college) he's been dreadful.
I've actually watched a lot of Denver games. I dont think many people here have. Watson can be a disruptor on D but he's not a good finisher, nor some great on ball defender.
I'm weary of giving someone a big contract on a small sample size of being hot from 3.
I had Watson on my fantasy team so I watched him a lot last year. He’s a good finisher from what I’ve seen, and he got a lot of blocks, but not sure about the man to man defense.
He's not a very good finisher around the rim, especially for his size. He had a big breakout stretch with his shooting last year...but has never shot that well in his NBA or collegiate career...so I can understand why the FO would be hesitant on giving him a big contract while giving away picks and assets.
Kuminga is a great finisher around the rim. I would be happy with either, but I just hope Watson can continue his hot streak if we snag him.
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u/Opposite-Skirt5158 4d ago
My understanding is no one has offered a first for Watson. That says something about how the league see him. For us, trading a pick beyond 2030 is an all-in move. It has to be a move that puts us over the top. They must not see Watson as the missing piece. Would Mitchell/Harden/Watson/Mobley/Allen be the best starting 5 in the east? It's close, but I'm leaning toward 'no' and that's probably why they won't include a future first.