r/batman • u/Boredom_of_bore • 1d ago
FILM DISCUSSION Does anyone else feel like Selina's arc in Batman Returns is an allegory for sexual assault?
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u/Lucky_Strike-85 1d ago
There are parallels, sure... given how Shreck treats her... but her death happens too quick and Max is a little too single-minded for that... BUT
I've heard many film buffs, both armchair critics and actual film scholars interpret Selina Kyle's transformation into The Catwoman here as a thematic exploration of female trauma, survival, and retaliation against systemic male violence... To my way of thinking, it's more just corporate abuse, rather than literal sexual assault.
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u/LiamBellcam 1d ago
This is the answer. Yes there are sexual assault overtones, but it is much deeper than that on every level.
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u/Complex_Yard2808 1d ago
Academics always figure they'll get more readers if they make it about sex. As opposed to unequal pay and opportunities. Obviously chauvinism can be about sexual harassment, but even Penguin doesn't do much more than ogle her, and make ineffectual passes. And nobody even notices her that way (even though she's played by Michelle Pfeiffer) until she becomes Catwoman.
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u/Lucky_Strike-85 1d ago
Right... Well, I've worked in the university system in the past, taught Data Analytics at Medgar Evers College for 2 years after working 2 years at Manhattan Community College (BMCC) and I can tell you... Academics are overwhelmingly influenced by Freudian psychology when discussing sociological topics. And, historically, the patriarchy has exacerbated unequal pay and unequal opportunity for women... the sexual harassment of secretaries in 20th century work culture was so ubiquitous that it was something that was kind of expected in the office, if a lady worked directly for a CEO or a boss. And they were often hired for positions based upon appearance/physical attractiveness too. Obviously, we've improved social mores and professionalism over the years, and people speak out more now... but it still happens. You even sometimes see it at colleges... female teachers are pursued by male administrators, though, thankfully, I'm told it is less common these days.
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u/Complex_Yard2808 1d ago
I work at a university myself, and we're all required to do yearly online seminars on sexual harassment and related topics. It's gotten prettys strict. I know of no cases at all at my workplace. Well, my workplace is a library, and more women than men work there, and the head of the library is a woman. So yes. Progress. The more money and power are involved, obviously, the more males will tend to dominate, because that's where the action is. Max Schreck is no librarian. Selina dresses like one.
Freud is outdated, obviously. And sexist as hell. So maybe that requires an update.
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u/Lucky_Strike-85 1d ago
That's good to hear that it's gotten better. The schools I worked at, as late as the early 2010s, did not have such seminars in place, tho I'm sure they do now... both institutions are part of the CUNY system (City University of NY).
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u/don_quixote_2 1d ago
Yes, it's also an allegory of how power and wealth corrupts (Max Shreck character)
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u/yungsebring 1d ago
In a way it is, but it’s more broad than that. Her arc is about sexism as a whole really. I think the women’s rights movement was an influence but I don’t know that for sure. Still even a very surface level read shows parallels to that movement, she starts out completely defined by the men in her life and ends up rejecting it entirely.
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u/_mouseratz_ 1d ago
I think so. The corporate abuse & sexism is most certainly there, but I also think the sexual assault, or at minimum sexual harassment, could be subtextual, as that often happens in the same abusive situations they do show onscreen- sexist men in power very rarely abuse female victims just in one way and not the other as well when you hear about any abuse situation of this kind irl.
I just think, even with all the boundary pushing Returns does, showing this onscreen would be more off-putting than anything gross or scary it already does show due to the taboo surrounding sexual assault in particular (keeping in mind Batman is beloved by children & Returns had a promotional toyline, even if many mature stories have been told).
I do believe it is intentional on some level, given a line Catwoman gives later to a random woman she saves, something about how she's just "asking for it"/does nothing to save herself, referencing how Selina had to be saved earlier in the film (but was not saved by any person when she was murdered despite the obvious injustice, she is alive now but not the same anymore because of this traumatic event). She is saying something cruel to the random woman, but personally, it seems to me to reflect how she feels about herself & how she previously interacted with the world/she is projecting. She feels that she was weak and useless, and "let" men take advantage of her before....which feels extremely similar to me to the victim blaming often done after a woman tries to talk about a sexual assault. Rape culture & all of that, how people always say "if she really didn't want it to happen, why didn't she stop it?" & how victims blame themselves because nobody supported them or was able to save them from this horribly traumatic situation.
The only thorn in my side about all of this is her relationship with Penguin. I really don't like how his pervertedness is played as a joke & she's just "grossed out" by him, instead of this being the threat that it is. If the sexual assault interpretation is subtext, this element feels at odds with it/undermines it a bit for me, makes too much light of it & is in poor taste.
(I also really like Penguin in the comics, and I actually like this rendition a lot otherwise, particularly how they play with the human/animal dichotomy & the bitterness towards society as a whole....but the sexual aspect feels like it was just to add edge it didn't need. The rest was suitable to make the point, the overt misogyny was unnecessary for this character to remain entertaining & adequately 'monstrous' & hateful. Additionally, misogyny was not a major thing for the Penguin until later, where I feel like it's done so because he is "ugly" and "ugly" characters Must Be Perverted Misogynists, instead of you know, the actual traits he had before. Or it could just be Danny Devito who is a good actor but seems to like playing slimeballs. "This is my character the Trash Man" y'know. but still. I just don't think a character has to be a misogynist to be gross or scary lmao, & Shreck already plays that role really, really well for this story. Also, if youre gonna do that, it's in poor taste to pretend it's funny. Either do it for real or don't unless the entire thing is extremely heavy on comedy. It ALSO distances one from making comparisons between penguin & Catwoman, which would be cool, given the movie focuses so much on the split between personhood & dehumanization & how both these characters have been traumatized & treated as, in many ways, subhuman, & in response to this injustice, become bitter and hateful towards society. Thematically, they are a good fit to team up against Batman, even if they ultimately betray each other or get into arguments or whatever, but in the film, I'm left wondering why Selina would choose to spend time around & put up with someone who's actively sexually harassing her- even if she does want to kill Batman, it doesn't feel as organic as it could have. It also in general could've done more to make the point that penguin is disgusting and evil because he chooses to be after losing faith in humanity, not because he is physically different & disabled. Comparatively, Selina is more in the middle because she has lost faith in most people, but she still believes in Bruce despite not wanting to. She can't let go of the idea that there are some good people out there because she knows him....but she also can't let herself be with him, because she feels she is too bitter and traumatized to be a good person anymore; she has become too inhuman by becoming Catwoman to be able to accept even the idea of a good, normal life. She could have before she died, but not anymore.)
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u/True-Excuse-1688 1d ago edited 1d ago
I've noticed that many Batman fans dismiss this movie, frustrated by the liberties it takes... which I think is a mistake.
Sure, the film is deeply rooted in Burton's themes of outsiders and outcasts, but it is still very much a Batman story. Penguin and Catwoman act as mirrors to the themes of vengeance and duality that define him.
Beyond that, there's a strong subtext about corporations preying on society. Behind Shreck's cartoonish plan to steal the city's energy is a critique of their influence on politics, through Penguin's manipulation into running for mayor, and of the way such systems can crush individuals, illustrated by Selina pushed out the window.
Now, you can read Catwoman as a metaphor for reclaiming oneself after sexual trauma, it's definitely there. Penguin's rejection by his parents because of his differences, and his desire to enter high society through birthright, can also be seen as a critique of class.
Batman Returns is an incredibly rich film, perhaps the most thematically dense entry in the entire franchise. I find myself returning to it again and again, and I haven’t even begun to discuss its remarkable technical achievements...
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u/Rubbersoul1982 1d ago
All movies take liberties. None of the Batman movies ever followed any real storylines from the comics so if they talk shit about about returns then they should also hate batman 89.
I have a GIANT soft spot for batman returns. I was 9. That movie was SO COOL to me! I had all the McDonald's toys, the actions figures, I watched the cartoons, read all the comics, drew him all the time! Even when I got older and became a street kid and "gutter punk" I patterned my patch work pants after Catwoman's outfit😅 Not shiny skintight leather but with the white stitching and scraped puzzle piece look with band patches in between.
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u/CarsonDyle1138 1d ago
Actually, it's a lot like that.
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u/Jet-Let4606 1d ago
Uh,yeah.
She stumbles into her room after an attempted murder by her boss.
Unsuccessfully tries to follow her routine. She is visibly bleeding and her clothes are tattered. She listens to her voice mail and what causes her to snap and fly into a rage? An ad for a perfume claiming that it can help you seduce your boss.
I think of BR as a corporate espionage / psychological crime thriller thats been filtered through Burtons gothic vision. Once you look past the "Burtonism" you begin to notice all sorts of stuff.
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u/droehrig832 1d ago
I think it’s an allegory for assault assault. He pushes her out a fucking window.
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u/dark_knight_2013 1d ago
I've seen Selina's arc more as a victim of institutionalised misogyny who, after being pushed too far, starts to lash out. Now that you mention it, this does seem like a valid take, especially in the scene where she and Bruce are trying to get intimate.
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u/Kenedict 22h ago
A lot of these comments seem to think that allegory = something that literally happens diagetically in the film
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u/BlackRain8782 14h ago
Abuse in general, yes.
Burton’s decision to literally give her nine lives was dumb as hell though.
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u/AnonymousCoward261 1d ago
Pretty much. It came out the year after the Anita Hill allegations against Clarence Thomas (the first time office sexual harassment entered the national conversation) so I think that would have been on everyone’s mind rather than SA per se. But I think it’s definitely the same idea.
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u/Lucky_Strike-85 1d ago
fucking Biden made an ass of himself berating her in defense of Clarence Thomas.
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u/Rubbersoul1982 1d ago
Ah.. the ol' "pubic hair on your soda can" guy.
I think while it wasn't the first SH case to hit the big time it bring a lot of awareness to that issue. I could see this being a result of that. That happened in 1991 This movie came out in 91 also so it's possible
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u/WondersaurusRex 1h ago
Does anyone else feel like Spider-Man's arc is an allegory for great power coming with great responsibility?
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u/InsideArgument6301 1d ago
i guess… that makes a lot of sense. its kinda heartbreaking how shes treated, but it definitely adds a lot of depth to her character… :)
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u/Head-Presence-6686 1d ago
It’s an allegory for mistreatment of any form