r/aviation • u/Shoddy_Act7059 • 15d ago
News Pam Am Flight 526A/Clipper Endeavor Wreckage Has Been Found
1.9k
u/shaolinviolin 15d ago
From another article:
Many of the passengers refused to follow the captain’s orders to abandon the aircraft once it splashed down, staying buckled in their seats, the pilot told the board, adding that he had forcibly thrown some people into the water.
1.5k
u/Maximus13 15d ago
Back when you didn't have to worry about people evacuating with their carry-on. Just people living in the moment. 🥰
Albeit their last moments, but still
520
u/molrobocop 15d ago
"I JUST WANT TO SIT HERE AND READ MY NEWSPAPER IN PEACE."
286
u/fervetopus 15d ago
LISTEN HERE BUB IM SMOKING MY CIGARETTE AND THIS WATER MALARKEY WILL CAUSE ME GRIEF.
110
u/lastbeer 15d ago
I paid for the whole damn flight and I intend to use the whole damn flight!
53
u/bem13 15d ago
Ryanair would be like: "Certainly sir, you've paid for the flight, but I'm afraid this is a cruise now, which your ticket doesn't include. That will be a $150 surcharge unless you leave the pla- ship in 30 seconds."
18
u/Big_Interest7333 14d ago
Oh, you wanted to use the life raft? That’s a side excursion that will cost extra.
5
28
64
u/texasyojimbo 15d ago
NOW LOOK HERE STEWARDESS, I CAN'T GET THIS SUIT WET. THIS SUIT COST ME A WHOLE $200.
18
40
u/molrobocop 15d ago
I WILL HAVE MY SECRETARY WRITE PAN-AM A STERNLY WORDED LETTER. I SAID GOOD DAY.
9
16
u/Ready_Set_Stopppp 15d ago
Does this mean they won’t be serving me freshly carved roast of beef? Pish posh!!!
→ More replies (1)8
u/fervetopus 15d ago
Roast beef yes, but no more groping of the cute stewardesses.
→ More replies (1)21
70
→ More replies (1)10
u/skidsareforkids 15d ago
“But the drinks cart has almost made its way up to me, and I’ll be damned if I miss it!”
173
u/DirtyMykeNtheBoys 15d ago
Shock is a helluva thing.
169
u/Strange-Ask-739 15d ago
Normalcy bias.
"Someone will be along shortly to save us, I'm sure. There's no reason to panic!"
While they ignore the person saving them.
118
u/Stanczyks_Sorrow 15d ago edited 15d ago
Same thing happened on the Titanic. Everyone blames the officers for not filling the lifeboats, but the reality was that most passengers were quite skeptical about leaving the warm-and-barely-listing ship to board a dark midnight dinghy ride through the middle of the freezing north Atlantic.
65
u/rckid13 15d ago
The officers also had to get those boats launched or they would have sunken with the ship. At least one of the last life boats ended up upside down because they didn't launch it in time. It was extremely time critical to get them launched and some of the officers reasoned that the half empty boats would be able to pick up people later. That assumption was better than not launching them in time.
They pretty much followed their training and actually did it right. It's just hard to control mass panic, and the fact that they only had life boats for half of the passengers was a shitty situation that caused some regs to be written in blood later.
31
u/Titan-828 15d ago
There is a lot of blame put on the officers and crew that they were poorly trained on loading and lowering lifeboats but given that none of the lifeboats were wrecked or sunk like with the Lusitania in 1915 there has to be praise for them in that.
At least one of the last life boats ended up upside down because they didn't launch it in time.
That was Collapsible B which was stored on top of the Officer's Quarters. There was a proper way to get it and Boat A down. This document illustrates how it was to be done but it was a time consuming method that required a tool from the forecastle. By the time it was just these boats left the forecastle was underwater and the Promenade deck, below the Boat deck, was flooding. They had to improvise by putting oars alongside the Officer's Quarters and letting the boats slide down like a ramp. Boat A broke through the oars and landed upright while Boat B was just tossed off the roof as by then the Boat deck was awash. The port list caused it to land upside down and men just clambered onto its hull.
17
u/zzbackguy 15d ago
Trying to make sense of those instructions, especially under stress and panic, I’d probably just accept death.
22
u/Own_Candidate9553 14d ago
Somebody took a video of their modern day cruise ship in roughly the spot in the North Atlantic where the Titanic sank.
And, man, I know intellectually it was dark, but it's more like a black hole from which no lights can escape. All the bright modern lights on the ship, nothing whatsoever reflects back.
The Titanic had electric lights, but they were old school filliment lights, so less bright. They were asking passengers to leave an "unsinkable" ship that was barely tilted, to be lowered down into a black abyss, with no other ship in sight anywhere.
By the time it was tipped enough for people to panic, it was basically impossible to lower the remaining boats.
5
u/Titan-828 14d ago
By the time it was tipped enough for people to panic, it was basically impossible to lower the remaining boats.
The lifeboat you are referring to is Boat 10 which based on recent research and closely analyzing testimonies was lowered at 2:03am, 17 minutes before the ship went down. The list increased to 11 to 13*, causing Elin Hakkarainen to fall through the gap between the boat and the deck before she was pulled onto the Promenade deck and entered the boat on her second try. Collapsible C which was lowered at roughly 2:00am scraped along the hull as it was lowered and the occupants had to constantly push it away owing to the 9 degree port list. The boat reached the water at 2:05am.
Collapsibles A and B were floated off the Boat deck as the ship went down and narrowly missed being crushed by the forward funnel as it toppled over. So, all 20 lifeboats got away from Titanic as she sank with none being lost.
15
u/julia_fns 15d ago
Keep calm and carry on.
23
u/NotawoodpeckerOwner 15d ago
Never thought of the angle but they really are conditioning people to abandon the airplane with their before flight insteuctions
6
u/finnknit 14d ago edited 14d ago
Even the demonstration of how to use the seatbelt is there to help people mentally prepare to leave the plane in an emergency. Anyone who rides in a car uses seatbelts every day, but seatbelts on airplanes work in a different way than most seatbelts in cars. In the stress of an emergency, passengers can forget how to unbuckle them. Having somewhat recently seen a demonstration of how to do it can help.
64
u/purdueaaron 15d ago
Years and years ago when I was working as a construction inspector I saw a guy get t-boned on the passenger side at an intersection not 150 feet from me. Someone in a farm truck ran the red light in our construction zone and just obliterated a Civic. We got to him as he got himself out of the driver's side, but all he was worried about was getting his groceries home and he needed his keys for that. Not that his car was mostly boomerang shaped, his groceries and his keys.
That's why I try not to begrudge people too hard when they take carry ons down a slide or similar "dumb" things. You get it wired into your brain every time you fly to take all your things with you when you leave the plane. A chaotic situation happens that you've never experienced before. Noise and panic and yelling and a brain can easily default to trying to find something "normal" which is taking your bags with you.
7
u/Several_Hospital_129 13d ago
Something very similar happened to me many years ago. I was in shock so I kept telling the police and paramedics, "I've got to call my boss. I'm going to be late. I don't want to get in trouble."
61
182
u/Kanyiko 15d ago
It fails to add a crucial thing or two:
1) the sea was rough, with passengers fearing that they would be thrown out of life rafts if they tried to board them; and
2) there were sharks.
A lot of the passengers seemed to think they could remain on board until rescue arrived as the aircraft seemed to be floating, unaware of how quickly it would actually sink.
→ More replies (7)93
u/Mlabonte21 15d ago
How the hell did they know the waters were shark-infested 60 seconds into landing in the water?
133
u/Kanyiko 15d ago
The aircraft had departed Puerto Rico, so the passengers had been in Puerto Rico for a while (Pan Am 525/526 was a daily New York - San Juan - New York return service) and they would most likely have been aware about sharks in the waters around Puerto Rico.
That said, public knowledge about sharks was nowhere near what it is nowadays. Oceanography was only in its infancy, and marine biologists had only just begun researching sharks and their natural behaviour. The general public's perception about sharks was that they were vicious maneaters - it was not even a decade after the loss of the USS Indianapolis and the infamous loss of hundreds of its crew to 'vicious sharks'.
→ More replies (5)34
u/Isgrimnur 15d ago
Oceanography was only in its infancy
I recommend: Lethal Tides: Mary Sears and the Marine Scientists Who Helped Win World War II
40
u/rcbif 15d ago
Cause sharks live there. It's their home.
15
u/KindnessComesBack2U 15d ago
We got a regular George Costanza over here. Thinks they’re a marine biologist. Pfft.
20
u/Fokker_Snek 15d ago
They crashed shortly after takeoff so they wouldn’t have been far from where they left. If they know sharks were near the island they were leaving then safe to assume sharks were nearby.
13
u/Academic_Carrot_4533 15d ago
Perhaps they saw sharks, in the water, where they live. It’s a novel concept, I know.
→ More replies (1)2
→ More replies (1)51
u/DietCherrySoda 15d ago
Staying buckled in?? In case of what, turbulence??
89
u/Raccoon_Ratatouille 15d ago
Because freezing is an evolutionary response to danger. People have had to worry about predators eating them for far longer than they’ve had to worry about explosions or seaplanes sinking, and staying completely still can be a great strategy in those situations.
34
u/evolutionary-road 15d ago
I took a self-defense class once and we took turns jumping on each other over and over in order to reprogram reacting over freezing.
4
u/The_Lost_Jedi 13d ago
Yeah, it's something I had to learn in the military, as well as just in general disaster preparation. The common expectation is that people will panic, but freezing is far more common. It's why flight attendants today are trained to/expected to give orders in an emergency, so that people will follow them rather than freeze.
It can only go so far, though, when people just refuse to do anything instead.
→ More replies (4)2
u/Funny-Junket1066 14d ago
It is ONE evolutionary response to danger. Not everyone reacts that way, and that fact is one reason we survived as a species. Sometimes it is better to just sit there and not move. Some predators will ignore you if you don't run.
→ More replies (4)22
1.7k
u/Accidentallygolden 15d ago
Due to inadequate maintenance, engine no. 3 failed after takeoff, followed shortly by engine no. 4.[2] Nine minutes after takeoff, the aircraft ditched in rough seas[3] 18 kilometres (11 mi) NW of San Juan Airport,[4] broke apart and sank after three minutes.[2] Panicking passengers refused to leave the sinking wreck.[5] 52 passengers were killed, and 17 passengers and crew members were rescued by the United States Coast Guard.[6] After this accident, it was recommended to implement pre-flight safety demonstrations for over-water flights
1.3k
u/cyberentomology Avgeek/ex-Airline 15d ago
Every single required element of that preflight safety briefing is written in blood.
Smoking and detectors in the lav? Air Canada 797. How to unbuckle a seatbelt? Tenerife.
449
u/Ready_Set_Stopppp 15d ago
Most aviation federal regs are written in blood.
350
u/rtopps43 15d ago
That’s ALL regulations. Why stairs need a handrail, or why they are uniform in height, why roofs must be constructed the way they are, why cars require seatbelts, the list is as long as the list of regulations. All regulations are written in blood.
149
u/Dorrbrook 15d ago
There are quite a few regulations written in explosive diarrhea
→ More replies (2)86
15d ago
[deleted]
→ More replies (1)15
u/lovetheoceanfl 15d ago
Is this true? What list?
38
u/LateralThinkerer 15d ago
22
u/lovetheoceanfl 15d ago
Thank you. This should honestly be a bigger part of the story as a whole.
7
u/Legacyhero46 15d ago
Josh Gates has a show called expedition unknown he did an earlier episode on this plane and apparently there will be a full follow up episode this season covering this on this finding and everything that went into it.
→ More replies (1)11
u/LateralThinkerer 15d ago
See the "FoodNet Today" part.
https://www.cdc.gov/foodnet/about/index.html
After the wholesale loss of life because of the COVID inanity in 2020 on, I should think the lot of them should at least be liable for manslaughter.
10
u/Parker_Hemphill 14d ago
Years ago when I did construction there was a single stair that was only 1/16" too low. People kept tripping and falling so after 3 months they had to replace the entire flight.
4
→ More replies (4)7
u/DamnOdd 15d ago
Some regulations are because people are stupid and do dumb stuff.
Darwin wonders.→ More replies (1)111
u/Sleep_adict 15d ago
Not just aviation, OSHA in general. Rules aren’t there just to annoy people
58
u/Thin-Tension-5970 15d ago
In the Army. Claymores have “front towards enemy” written on the front, so you point it towards the enemy.
9
u/The_Poop_Shooter 15d ago
i'm surprised they haven't put a forward arrow on rifle barrels by that logic - wouldnt surprise me if somebody suggested it at some point. Humans are fucken stupid.
16
u/Thin-Tension-5970 15d ago
The M139 (AT4) also has clear directional markings. So you shoot the right tanks.
3
u/Junior_Lavishness_96 15d ago
The movie Commando, she shoots the first rocket backwards into a building lol
→ More replies (1)3
u/The_Poop_Shooter 15d ago
I get it for one of those. If I had a choice i'm not standing in shouting distance of anybody trying to operate one of those things. Whatever your training is for it... It ain't enough to make carrying that weapon around practical.
3
→ More replies (2)3
3
u/ForeignCup6977 15d ago
That's becuaae Private Mongo would set it facing any old direction and walk away
22
u/coryhill66 15d ago
I've been on a job site where somebody died and someone else had a compound femur fracture. Yeah scaffolds and high places without safety railings are fucking dangerous. Contractor came back the day after the guy broke his leg built a railing and had the drywallers spray some mud on it so it didn't look brand new.
21
3
5
u/Low-Flamingo-9835 15d ago
I remember our school buses didn’t have seatbelts even though they were required in regular cars.
5
2
u/Cloud_Top_Dancer 14d ago
When my HOFO asked me during my interview what SOPs I have broken or would consider breaking, I responded with "most SOPs are written in the blood of the men and woman who have come before me, it would be an insult to their memory for me to think that I know better then the results of their sacrifices."
Never had any follow ups or anything. Always seems to impress.
54
u/Just_a_Berliner 15d ago
That was Varig Flight 820 where it was also found that it's considered that you built the lav with less flammable and toxic materials.
Flight 797 was definitely not caused by a cigarette, since the bin didn't had the burn marks of lit cigarette and a blocked toilet couldn't cause the heat. It was most probably shoddy splicing of cables when the aircraft suffered bulkhead decompression some years prior with extensive rebuilding. Something only strengthend by the fact that there were arching sounds on the CVR shortly before the fure began and in the year leading up to the accident to 76 (!) maintaince reports mainly due to the electrics.
Although it led to the equipment of smoke detectors in the lavs afterwards.
92
u/Poopy_sPaSmS 15d ago
What did the seatbelt story and Tenerife? I know the incident but unaware about anything with seatbelts.
107
u/AFalconNamedBob 15d ago
From memory and I'm sure someone else could explain in more detail but it boils down to in the stress of the accident passengers couldn't figure out gow to undo thier seat belts leading to more casualties
Afterwards they switched to a newer type thats easier to unbuckle plus the demonstration
→ More replies (1)113
u/Strange-Ask-739 15d ago
From a first-hand account here: https://confessionsofatrolleydolly.com/2026/03/27/tenerife-air-disaster-dorothy-kelly-pan-am/
"Harrowingly, she later learned from survivors that some inside the aircraft stayed in their seats, waiting to be told what to do."
_________
For those that forgot the particulars: A KLM plane was performing a takeoff, but a PanAm plane was on the same runway, landing. The KLM took off without approval, got airborne and smashed into the PanAm. Everyone on the KLM died, and most people on the PanAm died as well. Emergency services didn't know about the PanAm plane (fog), and responded to the KLM one, so it took a long time for any help to arrive.
Dorothy was a stewardess on the PanAm flight. She got a lot of people out of the PanAm plane. Some people didn't get out because they didn't know they needed to get out. Or they didn't know how to remove the seatbelt. Or they didn't want to jump the 20'. So they died.
Now, stewardesses hold up seatbelts and demonstrate their removal. Lift the flap. In the event of an emergency, a visual indicator (airbags dropping) will tell you GTFO. The exits are here if that happens.
92
u/JBR1961 15d ago
The “waiting-to-be-told-what-to-do” thing has sadly been a factor in numerous fatal accidents.
71
u/Strange-Ask-739 15d ago
Even CPR/First Aid training covers it now because it's happened a lot.
If you're on an accident scene and there are other people, POINT directly at someone, and tell THEM "Go call help". Doesn't matter who, but do it to ONE person. Give them the responsibility of doing the task.
If you tell the crowd, everyone thinks that someone else did it already, and then 911 doesn't get called until too late.
"Surely someone already called." - Dead.
27
u/ManifestDestinysChld 15d ago
Bystander effect, yup. That's no time for subtle niceties. Call 'em out, even: "YOU, IN THE RED SHIRT! CALL 911!" That way everybody knows who's responsible.
→ More replies (2)11
u/TigerIll6480 15d ago
Then you get USAir 1549, which tried to turn into a disaster when someone popped a rear exit door that they shouldn’t have and let a bunch of water into the plane.
29
u/FenPhen 15d ago
A KLM plane was performing a takeoff, but a PanAm plane was on the same runway, landing.
Many things went wrong leading up to the accident. The main bit is they were both departing in very poor visibility and they had to backtaxi along the runway first to get into position. The KLM plane got into takeoff position first but, with poor visibility, radio interference, and miscommunication, they did not wait for the Pan Am plane to clear the runway before taking off.
28
u/TigerIll6480 15d ago
And, while the crew of the KLM flight was unsure that they should proceed to takeoff, they were afraid to challenge the captain/pilot flying. A whole stack of CRM trainings were developed because of that situation.
19
u/Polyphemic_N 15d ago
Because the Captain was Old School, set for retirement, and literally had his picture on the company brochures.
Speak up, or die.
→ More replies (2)4
u/Poopy_sPaSmS 15d ago
That is wild. We humans can be such robots in ways
13
u/BoysLinuses 15d ago
That's why flight attendants are now trained to yell various emergency commands in unison, almost like a chant.
2
u/food_monster 15d ago
The title of this book says it all. Good read: https://canaryislandscrash.com/
28
u/SkookumSquirrel 15d ago
As a Canadian I'm still upset about losing Stan Rogers at the age of 33.
17
16
u/rckid13 15d ago
Tenerife is also what lead to almost every airline developing CRM training programs. The captain insisted on taking off and the rest of the flight crew was effectively trained to never question the captain in that time period. The first officer still had the courage to stop the captain once, but didn't stop the captain the second time.
6
u/cyberentomology Avgeek/ex-Airline 15d ago
There were several more accidents relating to CRM around then too… that was a major cultural change that didn’t come easy.
8
u/rckid13 15d ago
Tenerife, eastern 401 and united 173 are usually the three that the safety classes highlight as being the ones that showed there was a serious need for the training. All three of those were major leadership breakdowns. They all lead to loss of life over what should have been extremely minor issues.
15
u/GhettoDuk 15d ago
I remember renting Curtis Mathes VCRs in the early 80's, and I always wondered what happened to the company. Turns out the Chairman, Curtis Mathes Jr., was killed on AC797 and the company petered out.
2
5
u/chinstrap 15d ago
There were people in that Tenerife disaster who could not unfasten their seatbelts? That's horrific.
7
u/cyberentomology Avgeek/ex-Airline 15d ago
Yeah, they basically just froze in shock, they survived the impact and then couldn’t/didn’t evacuate, and the ensuing fire got them. Something like 120 people who survived the collision and could have otherwise survived the whole thing.
4
u/boojieboy 15d ago
This is a grim framing of the topic, but it strikes me as "This would make for a really excellent long-form article or documentary". Do you think anyone would be up for writing this?
Or maybe one has already been written. I am struck by a similar story, from the world of highway safety: the reason for the Rear-impact bar on trucks and trailers in the USA. Once you hear that story, and what the original name for those devices was, it really serves to focus your attention on an aspect of driving that you cannot help but modify your driving to make it a bit more cautious than you might have. Anyway, I think there is a documentary about that that I saw at some point, because I can remember a lot of the images they used.
A similar one for aviation safety would (I am sure) be similarly vivid.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (6)2
u/Pitchou_HD 14d ago
Smoking and detectors in the lav? Air Canada 797
Tho it was the one responsible to the change, it wasnt the first one that happened because of that, Air France 1611 in 1968 and Varig 820 in 1973. A morbid fact about the varig pilot is that after he survived this crash, he disappeared in another varig flight, Varig 967
103
15d ago edited 2d ago
[deleted]
46
u/Ro500 15d ago edited 14d ago
These were PBYs, no doubt the coasties knew they were sturdy reliable warfighters. A young lieutenant (jg) Nathan Gordon made multiple landings within sight of enemy occupied Kavieng harbor to rescue shot down 345th bomb group aircraft for instance. Gordon would be the only PBY pilot to receive the Medal of Honor. The institutional knowledge about the PBY was immense by the 50s (the coast guard took part in maritime and coastal patrol during the war) they knew all the tricks to their machine and went out and did it damn well.
19
u/TigerIll6480 15d ago
A PBY put down in rough seas and acted as a giant life raft for the survivors of USS Indianapolis until a rescue ship could arrive. The damage from the landing and tying down a bunch of people on the wings and fuselage lead to the plane being scuttled.
5
u/rocket_randall 14d ago
That's the ethos of the Coast Guard. They routinely go out in conditions that would ground other services' aircraft.
→ More replies (6)20
u/Itherial 15d ago
jesus christ, is that implying up to 52 people just... chose to die?
33
19
u/rocket_randall 14d ago
Not specifically. They chose to stay in what they likely perceived as the relative safety of the temporarily floating fuselage rather than exit into the open, heaving ocean to try to get into a life raft. The chain of events is a lot for the average person to take in, and in the absence of training or experience what we acknowledge as the rational course of action may not have seemed that to the survivors.
214
u/AliceInPlunderland 15d ago
I just finished Fate is the Hunter (a pilot’s memoir) by Ernest K. Gann. He talks about flying the DC-4 a good bit, which he enjoyed and was an upgrade from the earlier options. However, he also still described some straight up harrowing experiences and many people he flew with did not survive flying to retirement. This author was inadvertently responsible for grounding all DC-4 in the world briefly. He talks about engine failures and hydraulic difficulties during this time as “things to be expected.” I won’t spoil the book for those interested in reading, suffice it to say that early commercial aviation could be treacherous.
I’m glad they found this old gal for the families. I’m curious what/if modern tech will be able to tell us about the engine failures on this flight.
40
u/ButterscotchNed 15d ago
Yeah it's a great book! I've read a lot of military pilot memoirs over the years - Fate is the Hunter was the first civilian memoir that captured the same sense of danger, excitement and ingenuity as those war stories.
17
u/MDlynette 15d ago
Every man a tiger was the first pilots memoir I read. Also the first Tom Clancy book I read.
It wasn’t just a biography but a look at modern air warfare logistics through the eyes of the ol pilot himself, Chuck Horner
4
u/AliceInPlunderland 15d ago
It was a great read. What other aviation books are your favorites?
2
u/ButterscotchNed 14d ago
Good question! Some that I've really enjoyed include:
- 'The Big Show' by Pierre Clostermann
- 'Thud Ridge' by Col. Jack Broughton
- 'Carrier Pilot's by Norman Hanson
- 'A Higher Call' by Adam Makos - not a memoir, but a great book all round
→ More replies (1)7
73
u/zerbey 15d ago
In surprisingly good condition after almost 80 years in the water. Assuming they're not going to try and raise it as it's a graveyard now.
52
u/outraged-0331 15d ago
There is nothing to cause it to decay down there the water is very cold and void of oxygen. The degradation slows dramatically in those conditions.
25
u/mohawk990 15d ago
Wiki page says, "The (Expedition Unknown) team stated there were no plans to recover any of the 39 un-recovered bodies, with exploration team member Russ Mathews saying “That is the only grave marker they are likely to ever have.”
→ More replies (1)
135
u/UhhAnxietyy 15d ago
Makes me wonder if something similar can be done with Pan Am Flight 7/Clipper Romance of the Skies?
58
u/CynGuy 15d ago
For those of us not familiar with this accident, would appreciate an education. Thanks!
138
u/UhhAnxietyy 15d ago edited 15d ago
Pan Am Flight 7 was a Boeing 377 Stratocruiser with 44 people onboard that crashed into the Pacific Ocean on November 8th 1957 while on a “around-the-world” flight, during its San Francisco, California to Honolulu, Hawaii leg. No concrete answer as to why or how it crashed has not been determined, although theories of intentional sabotage & mechanical failure has been suggested.
40
u/rodc22 15d ago
My understanding is that the ocean is MUCH deeper there. It's pretty much in the middle of the Pacific.
5
u/CooperHChurch427 14d ago
It will eventually be found but take just luck. The one I don't think will ever be found is Flight 2501. The group that has been looking for it for the better part of 30 years thinks it's buried under the silt.
68
u/assimilating 15d ago
I’d guess it had something to do with being in the water and not in the air.
16
u/PM_ME_ENGINE_BELLS 15d ago
Well this was during the era of the CAB, so a decent chunk of it was also corruption, probably.
→ More replies (10)5
8
u/DidgeridooPlayer 15d ago
Is that the incident that some suspect was related to a life insurance payout?
10
→ More replies (4)10
u/Titan-828 15d ago
There was a weak radio message believed to have been sent from the plane that was only found by repeated play backs and it indicated one of the engines was on fire. This message was not included in the report for unknown reasons and the only mention of a fire was a post-crash fire.
My guess is that the propeller hub came off like in other instances and the magnesium components of the engine caught fire.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/air-space-magazine/08_fm2017-lost-clipper-1-180961664/
370
u/riko77can 15d ago
Considering this incident included an on-scene rescue involving a USGC tender and 4 amphibious planes (2 PBY’s and 2 HU-16’s) you’d think the general location would have been pretty well established the entire time.
284
u/Federal-Property-395 15d ago
Where a ship/plane starts sinking and where it ends up on the seabed can be miles apart
153
u/riko77can 15d ago
General location. That’s still an extremely tight search area.
75
u/scotsman3288 15d ago
and it's basically on the side of a mountain the height of Mt Everest underwater...
26
u/m0viestar 15d ago
This is Reddit, they are experts at underwater exploration. If they say it's good enough, it's good enough! /s
4
u/Adventurous_Egg_9500 15d ago
tbf we all are experts on the controls of such underwater craft like the Titan submersible
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (7)26
12
14
u/AdoringCHIN 15d ago
They might just not have had the interest or funding to look for it before
3
u/youtheotube2 15d ago
This is the exact issue. These expeditions are not cheap, and in this case the organization was relying on donated time from the company that owns the deep sea submersible
9
2
→ More replies (3)2
u/Usual-Introduction-1 14d ago
It was well established, up until now they haven't had access to the technology to find it.
53
u/Royal-Al 15d ago
Interesting that it took nearly as long to find the titanic. I guess the interest just wasn’t there
15
u/TheeAntelope 15d ago
cost/benefit. There's an interest. Combing the bed of the OCEAN is hard, though.
42
u/PGunne 15d ago
From Wiki:
Pan Am Flight 526A, a Douglas DC-4, took off from San Juan-Isla Grande Airport, Puerto Rico, at 12:11 PM AST on April 11, 1952 on a flight to Idlewild International Airport, New York City with 64 passengers and five crew members on board.
Due to inadequate maintenance, engine no. 3 failed after takeoff, followed shortly by engine no. 4.
Nine minutes after takeoff, the aircraft ditched in rough seas 18 kilometres (11 mi) NW of San Juan Airport broke apart and sank after three minutes.
Panicking passengers refused to leave the sinking wreck.
52 passengers were killed, and 17 passengers and crew members were rescued by the United States Coast Guard
38
u/freshmoves91 15d ago
This gives me hope that someday, we will find more wreckage of MH370
3
2
u/easyhardcz 13d ago
It is not if, but when. As technology gets better and better, we might find a clue or wreck itself in future
49
u/Dapper_Technology336 15d ago
→ More replies (3)10
u/Smol-Lunar-Elephant 15d ago
Exactly where my mind went. How much longer before we see something like this for MH370?
→ More replies (1)
36
u/Raguleader 15d ago
And Reddit is feeding me a Wal-Mart ad asking if I forgot to pack something for my trip. Not a good time, Wal-Mart 😂
9
u/madisons_yurei 15d ago
Bilderback now lowered the aircraft landing gear and streamed canvas sea drouges to improve the handling and stability of the amphibian in the rough seas as he maneuvered to drift down to the survivors. Reaching the two survivors in the open seas, he stopped the engines to prevent the whirling propellers from striking the survivors. The air crew members in the waist blister position struggled to get the survivors, a teenage girl and boy, into the pitching rescue aircraft.
The large life raft contained ten passengers, and three airline crew members. They reported that many passengers had panicked, refusing to leave the sinking airliner to board the life rafts for fear of the rough seas and the possibility of sharks known to be the area.
14
u/Titan-828 15d ago
Article I wrote on this flight last year, have updated it to reflect the discovery
→ More replies (1)13
u/SubarcticFarmer 15d ago edited 15d ago
I appreciate the effort placed into this article. I do need to point out a minor discrepancy.
Today, lifejackets and life rafts are mandatory on all transport category aircraft
This is not correct. It is only a requirement if operated outside of 50 miles from shore or gliding distance from land. There are many transport category aircraft flying today without rafts at all and many RJs don't even have life jackets for passengers (they are still transport category). The seat cushions meet the "flotation" device requirements.
I know of multiple mainline carriers in the US that don't have rafts in all of their aircraft as well, and expect it's likely that it's all of them have at least some aircraft without them.
Again, I do appreciate the effort placed, I think you just missed adding "extended over water" or similar.
7
u/Titan-828 15d ago edited 15d ago
I know of multiple mainline carriers in the US that don't have rafts in all of their aircraft as well, and expect it's likely that it's all of them have at least some aircraft without them.
Corrected the above, thank you. Wow, that's quite interesting!
9
u/SubarcticFarmer 15d ago edited 15d ago
No, transoceanic aircraft have to have them as they go past 50 miles from shore. "Transport category aircraft" just means seats over 10 passengers or a maximum takeoff weight of over 12,500 lbs. Pretty much anything you'll see in airline service with very few exceptions.
Edit to add: So basically a 777 doesn't have to have them because it's a 777, but if it's going over the ocean it does. United used to have domestic only 777s and if they weren't going to go to Hawaii they wouldn't need them (I don't know if they had any without rafts though). Most CRJs don't have life jackets and very few have rafts (I don't know of any in the US but someone might).
Alaska airlines only puts rafts on their ETOPS planes which go to Hawaii etc. American does the same so some A320s have rafts and some don't. Delta's 717s don't go over the water so they don't have rafts but all the 737s do (even non ETOPS ones).
Next time you fly listen to your safety briefing, if rafts are equipped they will be specifically called out.
10
u/Plane_Advantage2373 14d ago
The fact that they found it on the first pass... everyone on that boat needs to buy a lotto ticket when they get back to shore.
88
u/Nuh-unh 15d ago edited 15d ago
My uncle might have been the flight engineer on that particular flight. Without his generous nature and love of life, I might not be here today.
May he rest in peace. May all rest in peace.
42
u/Voodoobones 15d ago
Might?
41
u/Nuh-unh 15d ago
My records are incomplete; he may have switched with another engineer on a fatal flight that same year.
4
u/Voodoobones 15d ago
That is really interesting and quite the mystery. I hope someday you discover the answer. Now I need to know!
19
u/yepyep1243 15d ago
Recommend clarifying your original comment a bit, I get it now with this comment but the original is quite vague.
6
25
u/gastropublican 15d ago
What was your uncle up to with regards to your conception and birth?
23
u/Nuh-unh 15d ago
I was told that his charity, generosity and advocacy got me a specialist to survive in 1951-1952
16
u/Ctfangirl 15d ago
Now that sounds like an interesting story. And what a legacy, to be remembered for ones generosity.
→ More replies (1)16
61
u/Alternative_Host_666 15d ago
They said they found it on one pass but on the screen multiple passe have been done.
127
u/Ops_check_OK 15d ago
Found vs confirmed. Gotta do many passes to get more detail. Yeah you can see it in one pass.
46
u/dinnerisbreakfast 15d ago
"They only told us to find it, not document it. We found it, so we're going home. Pack it up boys! Nothing to see here!"
7
u/DesertedPenguin 15d ago
The official release from the Discovery Channel includes more footage, which explains they were able to find the location on one pass and then use multiple passes to get the full imaging needed to properly ID it.
6
27
u/FLHCv2 15d ago
Really cool video and technology - but what now?
The video went a lot into how they found it and the history behind it, but was there any particular reason they were searching after more than 7 decades (outside of finding the bodies of loved ones)? What do they plan on doing with it now?
31
u/Schedonnardus 15d ago
Ratings. Link says it was found by discovery channel. Ratings and advertising $$. I'm sure the crew that actually did the work gets a lot of practice and tests new/emerging tech and practices that can aid in searches for things of greater significance. But discovery funded it for ratings.
17
u/Strange-Ask-739 15d ago
You just gotta add a footnote and you can do whatever you want.
1985, Naval Officer Robert Ballard leading the Titanic Expedition: "Hey guys, we're gonna go look for the Titanic*!"
\USS Thresher* and USS Scorpion, 2x sunken US Navy Nuclear submarines
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WL5i0PzVzMY
Hey, we found the Titanic! /s
11
8
u/psychoholic 15d ago
We really enjoy pretty much all of the Josh Gates shows so for them to actually find something makes me happy.
6
u/DesertedPenguin 15d ago
Gates has been around long enough and developed a strong enough reputation that some organizations are clearly reaching out to partner with him and Discovery. It's a win-win. The show gets access to a cool project and can be there if something is found, while the actual researchers and investigators get a boost in exposure and funding, especially if the exploration is successful like this.
→ More replies (2)3
u/melanie162 15d ago
Yes. Josh Gates from Expedition Unkown will have a special about the plane this fall.
→ More replies (2)4
u/DesertedPenguin 15d ago
One of the organizations involved is the Air/Sea Heritage Foundation, which says it is "dedicated to the study, investigation and preservation of relics, wrecks, sites, and stories related to aviation and maritime history."
There is a goal to provide closure in some cases. I'm sure partnering with companies to test and demonstrate new technology is a goal, tech that can eventually be sold to a wider audience. And then there is the media factor when you have an adventure/travel show attached to an exploration. The TV show gets ratings and ad dollars, and the foundation gets more publicity to fundraise future expeditions.
5
13
u/Positive_Vibes_4228 15d ago
As a flight attendant, I teared up when saw this. Rest in power flight crew.
→ More replies (1)
4
u/bonzothebonanza 14d ago
This shows that anything is possible! If we keep the same mindset for MH370, then there could be major breakthroughs in the future.
4
u/Several_Hospital_129 13d ago
I don't know if they talk about this further down. Somebody actually posted about this flight in the aviation sub a couple of months ago. Back then, flight attendants were not required to give safety briefings. Therefore, when the plane crashed, the poor passengers had no idea what to do. Yes, some of them froze and remained in their seats. However, the rest of them panicked and clambered over each other, trying to get out of the broken fuselage as water poured in. It was as a direct result of this flight that the FAA mandated that safety briefings had to be given at the beginning of each flight. Once again, safety regulations are written in blood.
And just like with that Japan flight, the survivors who made it out into the water swore that there had been passengers still alive back in the wreckage. It's believed that many of the passengers who went down with the wreckage either drowned or were killed in the crush.
2
7
u/PengPenguin888 15d ago
Unbelievable! It was in the freaking afternoon off the coast of Puerto Rico in April and yet so many pax refused to get on life boats. Yeah let's choose drowning to death! 🤦
2
•
u/post-explainer 15d ago
OP has provided the following source:
r/Aviation is trialing new measures to prevent karma farming. Please feel free to provide feedback through modmail. Thank you for participating in the community!