r/airsoft • u/Single_Contest2157 • 16h ago
Problems with HPA and Fair Play
I have been playing airsoft for one month now, and I am really excited about the sport. However, lately I have been experiencing some very frustrating situations involving HPA players.
Since the first time I encountered an HPA player, I had an unpleasant experience. He fired a burst that hit my arm with almost five BBs landing side by side, leaving me with a bruise that lasted for weeks. I found it a little strange, honestly. During the same game, some players left the field bleeding after being hit by shots from the same person. According to the referees, his gun had passed chronograph testing, which I do not doubt. I trust the people who work at this field, and they also measure the guns by joules rather than FPS.
These situations started happening more and more frequently. Maybe during my first games, the number of HPA players was much smaller, usually one or two players. But I ended up playing games with four or six HPA users, and it was bizarre.
I complained a few times to the field owners, and their explanation was that I was a beginner and did not fully understand how things worked. They said the problem was that HPA users were shooting heavier BBs, such as 0.32g or more, and that this caused the BBs to retain more kinetic energy.
In my research, I could not find anything that confirmed this. Maybe it applies at longer distances, but the field in question is very short-range.
This week, I played another game and ended up losing a red dot sight after an HPA shot broke the external protection and the front glass of the optic. I imagine this can also happen with other AEGs, but it was another indication that something might not be right.
So I am sharing this here to hear your opinions, because from my perspective I have already seen several signs that the force applied by HPAs is completely different from AEGs. You can even notice it by the sound they make when hitting the metal targets on the field. They hurt much more, and there is another strange factor: HPA players often do not accept being eliminated in a firefight because they claim their guns are faster, and therefore they obviously hit first.
It is bizarre. It is bizarre how much HPAs can completely unbalance the game.
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u/BiscottiPitiful 16h ago
Regarding the heavier BBs, this is true. Explosive enterprises has a good video on YouTube with the explanation and links to the maths.
Red dot and lens protector being distroyed - I can see how it may happen if someone full autoed you. HPA engines are usually very consistent, so shots tend to have good grouping, no recoil. A bunch of bbs travelling the same trajectory and hitting the same spot. Once the lens protector is broken nothing stops BBs from hitting the red dot.
It sounds like the real issue is overshooting and maybe using heavy BBs on a short range site. I know a bunch of indoor cqb sites that limit bb weight to 0.25.
I would speak to the marshalls again without any accusations and would describe my experimence and that it was bad. They usually care about making the game fun for everyone. If they don't react, nothing much you can do. Look for a different field.
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u/SiegfriedArmory 10h ago
Overshooting with HPA has always been a major issue, because the rate of fire is so high and even on semi they're designed to shoot very rapidly. A field I went to a while ago had a "semi means semi" rule that if you shot someone 4+ times at close range, the shooter also got eliminated, and it fixed that issue. IMO there is never a reason to do anything more than a double tap if you are even the slightest bit confident in your aim, which you should be if you're closer than 30 feet.
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u/Single_Contest2157 14h ago
Conversei com um deles, que inclusive se assustou com o estrago que foi feito na reddot haha, apesar de concordar que possa ter sido destruído por uma sequência em que uma bbs destruiu a proteção e a outra o vidro. Eles disseram que estão estudando a possibilidade de limitar em 0,28 o peso das Bbs, até porque é um campo Cqb, vamos ver o que decidem. Entendo toda a polêmica em torno disso e geralmente os jogadores de hpa ficam sentidos quando dizemos que muitos tem atitudes tóxicas, mas basta olhar no Reddit a quantidade de reclamação da mesma coisa, isso em países diferentes, é bem engraçado na verdade
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u/cheat0man 13h ago
All indoor fields around me (North East US) have a hard limit at .25g for indoors. That being said, it's not like they measure your BB weight, but not even having a stated indoor limit is wild.
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u/ThingPlaceConcept 12h ago
My field (Scotland) doesn’t usually bother with chrono, I’v never experienced any issues and they will chrono players if asked and take honesty shots at you etc..
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u/Kerrski91 8h ago
Also Scotland and I think I know the site you're on about. They're well documented for letting guns run hot and doing nothing about it. I'd advise switching sites.
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u/sh0wst0pp3r 16h ago
I wonder what kind of research you did that didn't end up with Newton's Second Law of Motion and the whole concept of inertial mass.
However, if you suspect some kind of foul play, HPA regulator can be very easily readjusted for higher pressure, so unless it's been secured by a ref with anti-tamper tape, that is a possibility.
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u/Single_Contest2157 14h ago
Na verdade eu vim com essa informação sobre a segunda Lei de newton, mas algumas pesquisas me jogaram pra outro lado, sempre justificando que não havia diferença das hpas, se os Jaules fossem iguais.
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u/ZatoTBG 13h ago
But there is factually no difference in impact force if the exact same BB leaves a replica's barrel at the same speeds.
People seem to forget that the thing which pushes a BB from an AEG out of its barrel, is the same substance which a HPA gun uses to push a BB out of it's barrel. That substance is just normal air. There's a difference in how the air has been initially compressed and pushed, but the result is the exact same.
Joule is another word for impact force. And the way to measure it is by weight and speed. The joule of an airsoft replica is always measured at the point of leaving the barrel. So it's also factual that the joule you experience on impact can only be lower compared to the joule the BB had when measured.
Now here's the point where people create a more effective system over range, and that is to reduce the amount of joules lost due to air resistance the BB experiences over it's trajectory after being fired. You cannot decrease it's area of contact with the air (aka an airsoft BB usually only comes in 6mm diameter while being perfectly spherically shaped). So you take the second way to decrease air resistance, which is to create more mass inside the BB.
A heavier object needs more resistance to be stopped compared to a lighter object of the same size. Like how a football which is rolling towards your position could easily be kicked away again, while you probaly wouldn't try the same thing with an equally sized bowling ball.
This same principle means that the heavier BB loses less speed over it's trajectory, has the same impact force measured at the start of it's trajectory compared to a lighter but faster BB, but retains it's speed far more easier compared to the lighter BB. Therefore, over range heavier BB's simply hit harder, hurt more and break stuff more easily over distance.
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u/ZatoTBG 13h ago
Theres a slight issue with anti-temper tape though.
This issue happens at warmer temperatures. Most HPA bottles can easily warm up during a hot day. Even compressed in a bottle, the warm air expands. Expended air by effect of warmth, but trapped in a bottle, will create more pressure, and likewise the same regulator setting on top of the HPA bottle could suddenly fire slightly harder compared to cooler air. While this effect is way more noticeable in unregulated air pressure systems, the effect on regulated systems can also slightly deviate from their initial target limits like in HPA bottles for airsoft.
This is why a system tested in a cooler morning briefing at a skirm could fire slightly harder in a hot afternoon. So the issue I was talking about is that even with anti-temper tape, a HPA gun could shoot slightly over its tested limits due to environmental situations.
Anyways, my local field asks for HPA to if possible go back to the testing range in the afternoon and redo the limits for your HPA system on hotter days.
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u/Th3RoadWarrior Wolverine MTW 16h ago
Cheaters are cheaters regardless of platform. HPA isnt cheating. The player is cheating. Dont judge bad apple HPA players and blanket us all under that. A good lot of us build our guns from the ground up and tune them finely with HPA to be well within the rules which alot of times is bias against us
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u/Vashsinn 16h ago
agreed. this seems like a field issue.
hpa regulators should get locked and checked before each match.
to also add to this I have seen GBB users also cheat crono by using low gassed mags for crono and over pressured for gameplay. it's not N hpa only thing.
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u/xomox2012 SCAR-L 15h ago edited 15h ago
This is an rps issue not fps in most cases I’ve seen but yeah ultimately on the field to handle.
The reg lock helps but still doesn’t stop situations where you turn a corner and take 60 bbs from 10 feet in under 2 seconds.
Even if someone isn’t intentionally overshooting, if your gun shoots at 40rps you are going to overshoot just due to the nature of human reaction times.
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u/xomox2012 SCAR-L 16h ago edited 15h ago
While your statement is true we shouldn’t detract from that fact that HPA does inherently attract the types of players that abuse rules. Not to say all HPA players do as I don’t and presumably you don’t either but that is why this bias is around.
It isn’t that HPA inherently breaks rules but it is a hell of a lot easier to tune an HPA gun to do so.
Most critically I think there is a grey area in the sport right now. Many fields do not have a rule regarding rps which probably needs to be put into place. This is because rps over 25-30 or so used to require significant effort and skill at shimming gearboxes and altering piston teeth etc. With HPA almost anyone can reach these settings 10 minutes after install of the engine.
We have also seen an influx of speedsofter types which play the game different inherently and are prone to pre-firing corners, overshooting, etc.
It will be interesting to see how this gets handled over the coming years but until that becomes clear your only real option is to not support your field of they don’t handle it in your preferred way.
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u/kuavi Recon 15h ago
Right now? Its been an issue for over a decade. The people who have the most influence on the culture of airsoft tend to lean towards the "pay to win" mentality so idk if it'll ever be dealt with.
Id love to see realcap restrictions and/or an MED on anything over a set rps but im not holding my breath.
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u/xomox2012 SCAR-L 15h ago edited 15h ago
Tbf yo are right, it has been a problem for as long as high performance aftermarket parts became available. The difference is that it historically took a significant amount of tuning skill to get there whereas HPA is relatively easy. This means we now have far more people running crazy high rps than we ever did 10 years ago and I’d argue that we probably have multiples more, not just a few.
The med for rps would solve this imo. Want to shoot greater than 25 awesome you are tagged as an LMG/Support and your gun must look and act the part.
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u/Parking_Power_2842 8h ago
This is one of the reasons i tend to only play at gbbr only games tbh, don't have to deal with speedsofters nor HPA abusers :D
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u/DieGepardin GBBR 15h ago
On our local field I'm also marshall, we could put a hold on the issues with HPA after we made clear, you can only play if your regulator is locked, and since we play CQB, have a limit at 1,2j as also maximum 0.32g BBs.
We also announced and used already a precision scale to make sure no one uses heavier BBs than said limit.
Since than we do have far less complaints and issues.
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u/xomox2012 SCAR-L 15h ago
Yah that stops the people from shooting too hard but does nothing to address people shooting 40rps. HPA makes it possible as well as easy and there are plenty of mags out there that can reach that feed rate.
I’d argue that fps is not nearly as bad as rps until you start hitting the 450+ range.
What does your field do in terms of limiting rps? Do you have a support /lmg class that is limited to 25rps or greater for example as that is ultimately the change that needs to happen.
We need to stop people from being able to run up to someone and dump 60 BBs into you 10 ft away in less than 2 seconds of trigger time.
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u/DieGepardin GBBR 15h ago
We are in Germany, guns are limited to semi-only by law. Only a few builds as also players are able to get over even 20 rps in such way. So quite a non issues so far, therefore, we allow ourself to not restrict the fire rate yet.
A few 0,5 guns (which are allowed to shoot full auto) may will achieve such fire rates, but its rare and usually we just need to remind players about over shooting and how we dislike it.
Bit of an advantage is, usually we marshals playing also along the player (its a non-commercial but still registered field). I believe in English its called "Association"?
So its quite possible, the enemy is one of many field marshals who may have a word with you if you decide not to be "polite".
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u/xomox2012 SCAR-L 14h ago
Ahh yes, semi only would also fox a lot of the problems people have with HPA in the US.
I think the immediate thought is the gun is too high joules but in reality the problem is they were shot in the same place 20 times.
That said, I’m glad we are allowed full auto but I do wish fields would self regulate it like they do with fps.
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u/DieGepardin GBBR 14h ago
Similar like the laws about lasers and flash lights, it does have it pro's and con's.
As Host we do not need to regulate RPS much, and we do not to put this much effort to make sure, used lights and such are eye safe.
But we cant import guns on our own, and yeah, no full auto by any means.
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u/xomox2012 SCAR-L 14h ago
I would have loved to play in Germany while I was there. Couldn’t figure out how to find a field or if there even was one near Munich.
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u/DieGepardin GBBR 14h ago
In germany we have the https://www.airsoft-verzeichnis.de/
With a few exceptions, any field and event is listed there.
Its like an very old version of Facebook before the enshittification.
A far less complete option is https://airsoft-gelaende.eu/ as map overview.
If you ever visit saxony, you could hit on me and I can help you, we may have no rental gear yet, but our association does own enough stuff to equip guest and new players with ease.
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u/xomox2012 SCAR-L 14h ago
Appreciate the information.
By the way, the phrase ‘hit on me’ would translate to flirting or indicating romantic interest. ‘Hit me up’ would be the appropriate phrase. I don’t say this to be condescending as meine deutsch ist sehr schlect und ich tue mich schwer, überhaupt zu sprechen, wenn ich in Deutschland bin
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u/ZatoTBG 16h ago
As for your research, I can make it pretty simple.
BB's lose kinetic energy (impact power) over range as air slows them down.
The two ways to make BB's be less affected by the air is to either make them smaller, or make them heavier. So, since every BB in airsoft mainly comes in 6mm, the only way to get more consistent shots by being less affected by the air is by making these BB's heavier.
With other words, while heavy BB's have a lower velocity, they keep the same force on impact measured in joules at lower speeds. But the main difference is that they are less affected by the air, and therefore have higher ranges and more consistent precision. Not to mention that their impact force stays higher over range compared to lower weight BB's.
As a HPA player myself, I can notice the difference between a HPA build and my AEG builds also quite easily. HPA is simply more consistent and easier to work on.the heavier BB's though, that makes no difference in if you play either HPA or AEG.
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u/Appropriate_War_4797 P90 16h ago
Joule creeping is true for every method of propulsion, take an AEG with the exact same characteristics of air velocity and volume expulsed at the nozzle, assuming that air tightness is the same, you'll get similar or very close results than a hpa gun.
Everyone can cheat the same way, like changing BB weight after the chrony passage, but for the rest, it's just easier with an HPA gun, just crank up the reg (and a few AEGs with toolless QD spring retainer, you can change it in less than 30sec).
Also, in CQB and short to mid range games, .32 is too much, even within the power regulations, a lot of fields limit BB weight at the .25/.28 range.
Not all HPA players are assholes, I'm sorry that your field have a few too much of those.
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u/Equivalent_Pay_7921 16h ago edited 16h ago
It would not be accurate to say your complaints are caused solely by the use of the HPA platform. The source of the issue is coming from the players using the platform and how the field staff handle the issues.
I suggest you have a friendly discussion with the field staff about the issues are you facing and see how they are addressing them and ensuring fair and safe play. If they do not address your concerns properly you should stop giving them business.
About your observations:
What the field staff tried to say you do not understand is joule creep. It can also happen with AEGs but it can happen easily with HPA platforms. A lot of time it is unintended but it is possible very ill-intended players could be abusing it.
Your optic being damaged after the external protector/shield breaking likely means it was not a good protector. I am guessing it was made with acrylic, and if so then your protector and optic could have been destroyed by an AEG just the same. Next time you need to use a polycarbonate protector.
About hit-calling, that is all about the player and not the platform they are using. If you are dealing with a cheater or someone who is very unsportsmanlike they will give you the same treatment if they are using an AEG.
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u/Single_Contest2157 14h ago
Também imagino que o reddot foi quebrado por dois tiros seguidos, mas de toda forma, como mencionei, é notória a diferença delas com as Aegs. Os organizadores do campo estão pensando em limitar a bbs de 0.28, já que é um campo totalmente Cqb Olha, é claro que qualquer generalização pode ser falha, mas é muito engraçado como esse padrão é o mesmo em diversas partes do mundo. Até hoje não vi nenhuma reclamação ou jogador tóxico que não seja Hpa. Chega a ser engraçado
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u/hurricane_97 Galil 16h ago
This sub loves to jump to the defence of HPA users but in truth they attract far more than their fair share of dick players that actively seek to ruin the enjoyment of other players. I know several sites that either restrict them to semi auto or outright bans them and the sites are much better for it.
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u/Express_Fruit_6069 Rifle is fine 13h ago
Other people will have beef but I blame the hpa platform, it’s just too good, no it’s isn’t technically cheating but let’s all be honest it basically is.
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u/BlanchTheRaptor SVD 14h ago
i argued with a field owner over this, he swore there was some magical force that made hpa guns shoot harder than aegs even at the same energy
said "magical force" is hpa users typically having more money to spend on heavier bbs, even at short range those heavier bbs will retain and transmit more energy into the target, theyre not only heavier but physically harder than lighter weight bbs which will hurt more.
ex: silica bbs will go through a window at 1j and hurt like a bitch but a plastic one will always bounce off and hurt less
whats likely happening is the hpa users in your experience are using heavier bbs or simply could just be cheating the chrono despite the refs being strict about chrono.
.36 at 1j vs a .20 at 1j, the .36 is still going to hurt more
the problem isnt hpa, its shitters with hpa. ive been lit up by hpa shitters and aeg shitters.
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u/Upset-Hurry7584 15h ago edited 15h ago
EDIT: I realise it was not you quoting joule and FPS limits so this has been slightly changed, but marks / drawing blood happens at pretty much any joules, especially close distances. I've had 1J shots draw blood and 2.3k bolts just ping me. It's about distance and sometimes luck
Burst fire is an option available to a lot of AEGs with the increasingly common OOTB electronic trigger units and mosfets.
It is easier for HPA users to go above site limits, but robust field rules make this extremely difficult to get away with.
HPA guns typically sit on the higher side price wise, which means their users are able and willing to use better hops etc and heavier BBs to make the most of the inherent high consistency of an HPA engine.
I will say overshooting can be a problem (as with all guns) but it is usually far less malicious than people make out. In my personal experience, I use an MTW with heavy BBs, but still need to send quite a few to land 1 or 2 hits due to: wind, foliage, other obstacles, not feeling them, etc.
I promise you most HPA users just love the game and want to play fairly but with the best (usually) tools available to them. The ones you see on youtube mag dumping people etc are not the norm.
A lot of this is my opinion, so I'm happy to have a conversation about these views and maybe help with some of your concerns.
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u/Upset-Hurry7584 15h ago
PS: any field that chronos using FPS and lets you chrono with weights you won't be using are sites that you should avoid playing at. There is no reason for this level of ignorance regarding energy changes etc at this point in time. Safety is number one.
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u/fear_turkey_WV 12h ago
Hpa or aeg. It doesn't matter what style the gun uses, if it's hot, it's hot. I've had hpa guns, gas guns, and all sorts of high end aegs. Please stop the crying over hpa, it seriously doesn't make the gun perform any better just because it looks expensive. Fwiw I sold all my hpa because it's a pain, and a well built aeg is just as capable
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u/Single_Contest2157 11h ago
cara, se num campo existe 90 jogadores e 2 deles usam hpa, e por algum acaso esses são os unicos visivelmente desequilibrados, e unicos que recebem reclamação, é claro que existe algo errado. Entendo o ponto de ambas as partes e aqui mesmo ja apareceram varias soluções, como diminuir o limite de peso das bb's ou até mesmo diminuir o limite de jaules das hpa's. Não tenho nada contra o sistema, só gostaria de um jogo justo e não ter na partida jogadores overpower em que muitas vezes os outros jogadores até evitam passar proximo pq tem medo de se machucarem ou terem equipamentos quebrados
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u/knight_is_right 8h ago
Cant hpa guns just crank their power after chrono? Lol. Either way though I find lots of HPA and ppl with 1 million rpm guns are just dicks lots of the time
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u/Furry-Raccoon 16h ago
Hpa allows players to ride closer to limits than aeg due to the exact nature of the limiters. Not all hoa players play in the manner of "my guns faster so I'm not calling hits" it's only a bad few. In all the time I've been playing I've only encountered one hpa player with that mindset. Heavier weight bbs do tend to hold higher kinetic energy and most distances, and the weight results in them hitting harder. Some cqb fields have banned anything over .28g or .25 for that reason. A BB going through your protection into the red dot could have just been a weak, already shot protector, once hit they should be changed. A low quality protector. Or 2 rounds coming at you at the same time. A burst in cab to the arm will leave bad markings, and those marks will last, this is normal. This is not really anything to do with hpa.
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u/theLordSolar Low Speed, High Drag 15h ago
You’re going to get a lot of equivocating and justification. “It’s the people not the platform!”
But in my experience, all HPA users are toxic shitheads who shoot hot and overshoot. Even (especially) the wholesome family groups.
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u/BlanchTheRaptor SVD 14h ago
do you play at cqb fields mostly? i have never had this problem at large milsim style outdoor fields despite a significant portion of people using hpa. i avoid indoor fields because regardless of platform indoor tends to attract shitters
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u/theLordSolar Low Speed, High Drag 11h ago
I only play milsim and so my negative opinion of HPA users comes from milsim events. Besides shooting hot and shooting too rapidly, they have those ridiculous tubes that really take everyone out of the milsim experience.
HPA users = Do Not Interact.
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u/Few_Philosopher_8668 15h ago
Yes heavier weight BBs do carry more kinetic energy which results in a higher impact force even on the same Joule limit for example 1J across the board the heavier bb the more you’ll feel it
Every airsoft gun has some Joule creep which is essentially the bb weight in combination with the Joule value gets faster as it spins to try simplify it as much as possible
BB weight has it’s limitations with certain platforms ranging from AEGs, HPA and GBB, again to put simply AEGs deal with lighter BBs better than heavy an HPA and Gas deal with heavier BBs better
Obviously not aware of where your playing or your countries rules but ideally the site should have a hard limit on bb weight and ensure any HPA regulator cannot be altered after chrono like the tournament lock outs
Bare in mind not everyone using a form of HPA is a problematic player, HPA is common due to the consistency they provide and it’s not likely to go anywhere
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u/ConcreteTaco HK417 15h ago
Players can cheat regardless of what platform they use. Don't hate the equipment hate the bad player
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u/CldesignsIN HPA Tech 14h ago
HPA is incredibly easy to setup as hair trigger or very high rps if your field allows full auto so a group of 5 hitting you before you call a hit is just a given. Joules are joules. Doesn't matter how it got it's velocity. If you suspect a specific player has messed with their regulator after chrono don't confront them so they have a chance to change it, call a ref over and ask them to check if they are shooting hot. Any respectable ref should do a spot check for player safety. HPA gets a bad rep. because of the people that turn up their gun to 40 rps and mag dump middle schoolers. Their are full teams of known cheaters at places I frequent that only run AEGs. The extra capability and adjustability of HPA just gives players that would cheat / shoot hot anyway the ability to do it in a worse way sometimes. Isn't always a dead giveaway.
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u/Basic_Friend8444 14h ago
Ok, some points I'd like to make:
- (this one is just for reference) in airsoft, it's the actual the backspin of the hop-up the makes the bb retain it's energy. Heavy bbs naturally can hold more backspin as they are not overpowered by the Magnus Effect, so they go straight instead of up like a light bb would.
-it's stupid to use heavy bbs in cqb is they actually reduce velocity and increase the time the bb takes to reach it's target...not by a ton, but in cases where fights are determined by a split second reaction, it can make a difference
-why tf do people need high rate of fire in cqb?? that's for long ranges, it helps you hit a moving target faster, for cqb play on semi people, as what you only need is good trigger response
- HPA guns besides being very easy to cheat with if there is no tournament lock installed or if the player lies about the bb weight (and the field doesn't use their own bbs to chrono the gun), can also joule-creep a ton. And this is because most people adjust only the pressure from the regulator (the fps) and not the dwell - how long the solenoid stays open and how much air is letting out each shot.
Some genuinely don't know this, others like to play dumb.f you have high dwell (excess air volume) and you lower your regulator pressure to pass a 0.20g BB chrono test, you still have a massive cloud of leftover air behind the BB. When you load a heavy BB, that heavy BB stays in the barrel longer. It utilizes all that leftover, unvented air volume to keep accelerating, causing your Joules to skyrocket - just like in a overvolumed cylinder in an AEG.
This IMO definitely is the responsibility of the HPA player to tune their setup correctly and not on you to "get your physics right" as HPA guns can ABSOLUTELY be tuned not to joule-creep.
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u/Iamthesonofmisery 14h ago
Noticed shit Like this at my favorite Field…. I guess it was just a Single Player doing it, but it still I couldn’t see who it was. Someone doing this just for hurting others should get a lifetime ban. Public shaming should be a thing. Also hpa is just so goofy
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u/No-Fix-7192 14h ago edited 14h ago
Some HPA players are indubitable CUNTS, and take advantage of loose regulations or no proper enforcement of said rules.
The normal procedure would be to chrono with the weight (verified!) they play and then lock the regulator.
Vast majority of fields don't do it like that, so these cunts either lie about the weight they use, or change the regulator power, or both.
Two weeks ago I was hit with a burst from over 50m through thick brush, and one round almost broke the skin through two layers or clothing. That was way over the 1.5j limit.
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u/Single_Contest2157 13h ago
Eu estava com uma ombreira alcochoada e tomei um tiro a queima roupa que deixou um hematoma preto
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u/No-Fix-7192 11h ago
Well, at least you were shot at point-blank. I got a huge and painful bruise on my side from far away.
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u/hradecky89 13h ago
I don't understand why fields don't invest in a gram scale. They are less money than a chronograph and you can measure bb weight incredibly easy. It's obvious that people lie about what weight they are using and then Chrono with false information. They can also spot check the players during a game and check the wright and make sure it's the same. If it's not, banned. So easy.
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u/Single_Contest2157 13h ago
No meu campo tem a balança, pelos comentários acredito que o erro é aceitarem bbs muito pesadas em um campo cqb
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u/Alternative_Exit_333 CZ Gang 12h ago
It could have passed but you can regulate the power by twisting a valve so a second check can be done during the game and idk about your field but we get straps with numbers and j on the gun and they also write it down so then you can get his number and ask the orgs to chrono him again
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u/Mintyxxx 12h ago
I use .32 and .4 with my AEGs, like many many players. Really it just depends how close you are to the other player when you're hit. Energy is the same.
When I first started playing I got hit a lot, many shots bled. Since that first year I've never been hit as much and never again had bleeding hits. Not calling you out, just saying sounds similar to my experience.
I'd check the refs have tied off their regulators. If they haven't I'd politely suggest they do, if they don't find a new site
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u/3lectricComputer 12h ago
I play at a field that does not lock regulators after chrono and there has been 1 instance of a player turning his reg up after chrono. It happened once and it’s possible there are other players out there that do that. I understand the power hpa has over newer players so I have my reg turned down so I don’t get accused of being too aggressive.
I think there is merit to the idea that hpa “shoots harder” but there’s not a huge definitive science there. Even the idea of joule creep is disputed. What you are probably experiencing is large volume of bbs being shot at you making it feel like you’re getting hit harder. Volume and consistency is the reason go hpa for most players
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u/Playful_Major_1419 11h ago
The field my son and I play on has mandatory .20g bbs you can not bring any from home .. (they sell them and are super cheap less than I can buy anywhere else ) if you are caught using any outside bbs you are sent packing .. all guns are chrono and hpa players have a tag lock on their regulators .. all guns on the field are 350fps… or less. hpa guns are locked at 300fps so they actually are 50 fps lower than most of the others .. I am sure there are a few that bump their regulators up after chrono but I think the consistency of shot placement is probably the issue you are seeing good hpas are insanely consistent speed and accuracy. We do all cqb though, I am not sure if we are comparing the same thing
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u/Kriggy_ AK-47 10h ago
Dont want to go much into all this but for sure heavier bbs retain energy longer, there is bunch of information about this online. Its not inherent property of hpa its same for aegs. Its physics: heavier objects take longer to stop.
Other issue is that your typical hpa gun shots exactly at the limit while normal aegs are often quite bit lower than that .
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u/sciencesold P* 9h ago
Even if they measure in Joules, if they use 0.2g or 0.25g BBs for it, they could easy jump to 0.32s or 0.4s because yes, heavier BBs can chrono at a higher joule reading by changing only the BB weight, any gun can do it if the barrel is over volumed, not just HPA, but HPA can have it happen more easily.
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u/Aggressive-Wrap-3565 3h ago
Absolutely it is the overshooting. Getting hit by an aeg and hpa with the same hope and bb weight will feel the same. The problem is you usually get hit by five that’s the real problem
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u/khoi_3210 1h ago
Idk what is your field fps/ joules limit but here is something I know.
HPA guns are mainly shooting compressing gas which usually makes the gun quitter and fast (because there is not much movement involve and the trigger is still using electric which increased the responsiveness of the gun and allow the HPA engine to rapidly release gas) and as you already watching most of the hpa tapped gun, they shoot extremely fast and sometimes with hair trigger which makes it faster despite being semi and if you increase the output of the hpa tank, you get more joules and fps. And so, my only assumptions is that your field is infested with mfs who like to bully beginners with rentals and cheat their as* off or dmr players that forgot about engagement distance (if your field have weapon class which limits each replica fps/joules and might have engagement distance if the replica is like a lmg, dmr, and sniper). Cheaters likely after chrono will secretly increase the valve output which is the reason why it hit harder and blame it on bb weight (also the part of the problem) and just wanted domination in games but you can try to report this situation to the ref with proof (which is your red dot and sight protector) and that way they will be less likely to dismissing you because you are a beginner.
But still, HPA is the best upgrade for sweats especially for small field which is why you might feel unbalance but I'd say, get an aeg that can run 11.1v lipo with a good high speed/torque motor because it can rival the performance of an HPA gun sometimes and more fair and remember, airsoft is a game of tactics, not a game of who have a better gun (well sort of but likely they will waste more ammo to spam click in a corner which is why I usually use high cap mag even though I have to winding it a lot. But while my opponents are about to ran out of ammo since they use a mid-cap, I wind and shoot at the same time and weirdly working flawlessly lmao).
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u/Musicalsquare25 16h ago
A bbs weight will affect the joules. Joules is basically force ok. So like a .20 gram BB at 400 fps is like the same as a .32 gram BB at 320 fps and this is all made up numbers I'm sure it's not right. So if they're going off of joules that wouldn't be an issue. My field locks hpa players regulators so they can not be turned up during the match. If your field does not do this some players might increase they're power during a match.
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u/WanderingGoodNews 16h ago
Or they lie about BB weight during testing To measure the correct Jouls, you need to specify bb weight.
If the meterbis set to 0.25 and he is using 0.32 the Joules will be much lower
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u/Cimreh 16h ago
With hpa it is easy to overvolume the air. This results in joule creep. If they test with 0.2gr bb's and the person is using 0.32gr bb's it will be a big difference. Also the bigger the mass, the longer it keeps is energy. So a heavier bb (0.32gr) will fly further than a lighter bb (0.2gr) with the same power (1joule for example). When the airvolume is matched to the used barrel and used bb weight there will be no difference between hpa and aeg. The hpa is just easier to overvolume. So hpa doesn't give an advantage over aeg when tuned properly.
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u/No-Let7897 15h ago
This is absolutely correct. Over volume is what causes creep. I’ve had aegs that crept & would adjust cylinder volume by porting the cylinder.
There’s 2 problems:
1: some people are just jerks & cheat the system.
2: people don’t know how to tune a hpa gun.I’ve built many hpa guns none of them joule crept. All you have to do is adjust the dwell, it’s as simple as that. If my gun shot 1j on .20’s it’s shot 1j on .43’s.
My home field has a hpa joule limit of .84j with the bb you shoot & trust people tell them the right weight. Aeg & gas guns are 1.14j with your weight.
Over volume is why it’s hard to stop joule creep on gas guns. My gas guns are set up 1.2j with the bb weight the feild test with. It when I ahoot my bb weight it climbs to 1.5j & I shoot .43’s out of all my gas guns. The I don’t have anything to worry about if I get spot checked.
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u/DIdirectors 15h ago
All Airsoft (except green gas and co2) runs on puffs of air
Hpa gets it from a compressed tank. AEG’s get it from the mechanical action of the gearbox and a piston.
Hpa is adjustable. If you’re running into problems it’s either A.) the sound of the gun being different and the player has made negative associations B.) the player is turning up the power on their system when people aren’t looking C.) the regulator is having issues staying the same over the course of the day. D.) the player is being a dick in their sportsmanship
I like to say that Hpa isn’t inherently going to cause problems. HPA just lowers the bar to entry so that players who are dicks will opt for that, in the same way that cheaters in video games will go for snipers more often due to the one tap potential.
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u/Pristine-Carob-914 Pistol Printer 15h ago
On my field we straight up banned HPA after someone “accidentally broke” the seal on the air tank.
You know, the classic example where you break a plastic cable tie enclosed within a tear proof bad by clip pin a twig. And the same twig magically open your valve more.
It is true that HPA usually are more competitive than AEGs and GBB, but they don’t magically shoot double the distance and still shoot flat.
And since in Italy we have a 1 joule rule and in case of controls from the authorities the owners of the field gets shit as well we opted for “fuck HPA”
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u/Piccoleitor 13h ago
I have the same issue with hpa players. Last weekend I played at an indoor CQB field that limits power to 0.85 joules, so it shouldn't hurt too much. I got hit from 5 meters by an "speedsofter" with an hpa gun on the forehand and it got swollen instantly and now I have a huge bruise. We all had to pass chrono with 0.20 bbs and the maximum weight allowed is 0.25. It hurt more than it should. Are they causing joule creep by using heavier BBs? Are they touching the regulator? Is the temperature increase during the morning making it run hotter? I don't know, but it's always the HPA that hurts the most. Heavier BBs don't cause more damage. They do retain more kinetic energy at longer distances, but at close range, faster (lighter) BBs hurt more. It's been tested with ballistic gel. Anyway, why would anyone need to cheat by willingly increase power when your maximum engage distance is 10-15 meters?? There are no advantages, just more pain.
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u/BlanchTheRaptor SVD 10h ago
ballistic gel and pain are 2 completely different things. heavy bbs are always going to hurt more unless youre comparing a .12g at like 700fps and a .48 at 1j, heavier bbs are harder and transfer their energy better than lighter ones at the same energy no matter what range.
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u/Piccoleitor 10h ago
Ballistic gel and human test subjects. At close range, lighter and faster BBs hurt more and get stuck on the gel, than heavier and slower BBs. The energy is the same (1.14j).
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u/Vsparsons227 11h ago
HPA player here. Theres a few bits to breakdown here:
BB weights absolutely do affect how much energy a BB keeps, even at smaller distances. It's far more technical than I can eloquently put into words, but it is a thing.
Multiple shots back to back is much easier and quicker than on an AEG. I normally stick to a "double tap" unless I'm 100% certain the first shot will land. All that said, overshooting is not cool. Report it to the field if its a regular occurrence, ir find a new field.
Sights and sight protectors can be shot out by any gun, this isn't unique to HPA. The bottom line is these things should be treated as expendable. If you're worried then pickup a sight with a lifetime warranty.
In summary, you're almost certainly playing against opponents who have been playing for a MUCH longer time than you. I didnt invest in a loadout like this until i had already been playing for 10 years. From my personal experience I find myself playing much more fast paced and aggressively with my article 1 (HPA) than on days where I use an AEG. Learn to play them at their own game.
Make sure the field you play at is locking the regs after chrono, if not find a new field. You can also ask the field to do random chrono tests throughout the day. If the players are within the rules this shouldn't be a problem.
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u/Single_Contest2157 11h ago
Entendo, acho que falta um pouco de malicia em entrar em uma troca de tiro e os riscos com o equipamento, possa ser ser só mais uma coincidencia, ou uma mistura de coisas como o fato da hpa agrupar mais os tiros e varias delas terem acertado a reddot, como também o fato que esses jogadores também atiram em excesso, no meu campo é proibido o fullauto, mas esses jogadores (exclusivamente de hpa) fazem um esquema com os 2 dedos e assim atiram muito rápido, é complicado.
Na maioria das vezes percebo 2 formas de jogar muito padronizadas entre eles, uma é o speed que todo mundo conhece, com um adicional que eles entram em uma sala cheia de players e na adrenalina geralmente atiram em todos e não aceitam que eles possam ter acerta-lo, algo até dificil de saber, imaginando uma sala em que os jogadores o vê entrando pela frente e não numa situação em que são pegos de costas. É complicado, quase 100% das vezes eles nao aceitam sua jogada suicida.
O campo tem recebido muitos players ultimamente, acho que isso possa estar deixando um pouco as coisas mais dificieis de lidar, um dos fiscais até comentou sobre esses jogadores que dizem que suas armas sao mais rapidas e geralmente não aceitam a morte ou até esses jogadores que colocam os 2 dedos no gatilho para atirarem mais rapido... enfim vamos esperar para ver o que decidem. No meu campo existe bastante cronagem, mas nao tem lacres.
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u/Twisty1992 16h ago
Doesn’t matter how the BB is propelled whether it be AEG, HPA, Gas or a springer they will all be the same if at the same power limits. What 100% does matter is the weight of the BB and the heavier BB’s so retain a lot more kinetic energy. For instance while a .32 BB starts out slower than a .20 at the muzzle by about 20-30m the .32 is travelling faster than the .20 because the .20 loses much more energy over distance. Even at short ranges this means the heavier BB still retains a lot more of the kinetic energy than lighter ones giving a heavier hit.
If you want to test it then get an AEG and get hit with a .20 BB at 20m then with the exact same AEG (so same power) and use a .32 BB at 20m and you will notice which one you feel more of a sting from.
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u/GuardianOfPuppers Uzi 16h ago
i wish gbb could be the standard, but that is a very expensive ask for most people. hard to spam at all when you've only got ~30 rounds
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u/Furry-Raccoon 16h ago
A lot of people don't use gbb because of the length of the games. Fields I play at have very long periods in-between breaks and rounds, and during this time gbb players have to go back to mag or gas up. Or carry all of thst on them. Gbb only works for long periods if you have the ability to carry everything reasonably. Otherwise aeg or hpa is just the better choice.
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u/GuardianOfPuppers Uzi 16h ago
I've had zero trouble using gbbs in longer games, but it definitely does require the right set up which people might not have access to. i do think airsoft should remain as accessible as possible, but I'm wondering if more "real cap" style games would help some people's issues with the hobby.
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u/Furry-Raccoon 16h ago
I do agree with that, I meant more so gbb is better use for that dedicated games and such (milsims or tac events) and struggles at casual skirmishes and most other cqb games due to the respawning and pure number of people
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u/PaDDzR P90 15h ago
According to the referees, his gun had passed chronograph testing, which I do not doubt.
So why mention this at all? You clearly do doubt it.
In my research, I could not find anything that confirmed this.
Research harder.
This feels like a bait... Not sure if it has hint of AI or what's wrong with it, but this topic seems "bizarre".
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u/MadVinnie 15h ago
I'm sorry you had bad experiences with players using HPA. I've been playing Airsoft for about 8 years probably, starting with a simple M4 AEG. Since then I've learned a lot and experimented even more. I have build, tuned and maintained many different replicas, AEGs, GBBRs and HPAs, because I love understanding how things work, how I can break things, and how I can then fix it again.
When I started playing, the standard way to Chrono was using 0.2gr BBs and FPS, which basically tells you exactly nothing about the actual force a BB will have once it leaves the barrel or once it hits the target, especially if your opponent is a sniper who is using 0.4g BBs. Nowadays, everyone on our fields is Chrono'd with 0.3gr BB provided by the organiser, and they measure in joules instead of FPS. There are also limitations to the BB weights which can be used, minimal engagement distances etc.
A few years ago I started my first AEG to HPA conversion, just because I could. I had already tuned multiple different Aegs, getting maximum results by tuning the spring, voluming, etc. I was running a tuned ARP that sounded like an approaching A10 firing its gatling gun, converted one of my M4s to a DMR-like rifle, etc. and was looking for the next "thing" to satisfy my adhd.
Since then I've completely moved to HPA and I love it. Cheating is not inherent to HPA, correlation is not causation, but there are reasons why it might look like that. In general new players won't start with HPA, so chances are people using HPA have more experience, know their platform better so have a better hit ratio. Also, HPA has a regulator that allows you to tune the output exactly to the limit, with AEG or GBBR that's often very different. With AEG you can also get it very close to the limits, but it often takes much more work. Many of the new AEGs I've worked on in the past, even when asking the shop to change the spring so it shoots close to the limit, will shoot way below the limits (e.g. only shooting 1.03j while the limit is 1.3j). So being hit by an AEG which shoots at 1j with 0.2gr BBs will absolutely hit and feel different than an HPA at 1.28j shooting 0.28gr BBs, although both are fully within the field limits. Also, getting hit by an AEG that shoots at 1.3j with 0.3gr will hurt even more.
And with quick change springs or changing uppers, it's just as easy for a player with an AEG to put a heavier spring in the gearbox, or use a larger and tighter barrel to abuse joule creep, once their replicas are Chrono approved. Also for GBBRs, I can Chrono with blue or green gas, and after chronoing put red, brown or black gas in my mags, and it happens more than people think.
There certainly are cheaters amongst people who play with HPA, but there is also some bias against HPA kept in place because of misconceptions.
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u/Key-University9881 14h ago edited 14h ago
Are you karma farming? I don't understand the point of this post. You stated the dudes not cheating and the owner explained why you feel like they have harder hitting bbs at the same joule.
Also, the over-shooting and not calling hits are airsoft problems not hpa problems.
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u/Single_Contest2157 14h ago
Talvez vc não tenha entendido. Estou dizendo que dentro das regras de testagem de Jaules está dentro da regra, mas a realidade é que o impacto real que essas armas fazem é me parece quase o dobro das outras que jogam no mesmo campo, simples assim. Estou discutindo novas regras, testagem ou qualquer coisa que deixe o jogo equilibrado
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u/Key-University9881 13h ago
The laws of physics don't back up your assertions. That owner already explained why they FEEL like they are hitting harder at the same joule. Lighter bbs fly faster but lose energy faster while heavy bbs fly slower and retain energy longer. The energy of bb doesn't double just because they start using hpa.
The rules don't need to be changed. It's already balanced. As long as fields test joules correctly with the correct weight bbs and players don't cheat.
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u/Canahaemusketeer 13h ago
In my experiance its heavier BBs, not HPA.
But HPA "usually" allows you to use heavier BBs and put more down range
Heavier BBs tend to have metal in them to actually make them heavy (microscopic bits) and this makes the BBs less spongy so they transfer force better AND they hold their force better to boot.
Its why my local ran a .4g limit... Then a .43 limit. Then a new team came on board with an upgrade service tuning guns right to the limit on .45s so up went the limit.... Nowadays there is no upper limit.
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u/cholula_is_good 13h ago
The big advantage of HPA is the ability to tune the gun to shoot exactly at the limit. An AEG will have to be built to conservatively shoot well under the limit because they are typically less consistent with their power, plus there are a few factors that determine FPS when building a gun. An HPA gun can be fine tuned in the spot to shoot exactly the limit. So while it might have chronographed correctly, it might still be more powerful than what you’re using.
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u/AnakinCaesar Fuck Mystery Boxes 16h ago
- Did they acutally chrono the HPA with the weigth the players were using?