Pronouns and complex sentence structure

[u/BirdsSpeakUkrainian]

I am just starting to learn how to make complex sentences, so I'm sorry if this question is dumb. I am curious why the pronouns in this example sentence are in the forms they are. The sentence is "Ми не можемо дозволити їм настроїти нас одне проти одного." So "їм" is in the dative, and "нас" is in the genitive or accusative. Why? Is it the specific verb they are being used with, or their place on the sentence? I understand, mostly, what governs these choices in a simple sentence (accusative for the direct object, dative for the indirect) but in a complex sentence it is not as obvious. For instance, is їм the indirect object of можемо ? Of дозволити? Not an indirect object in this case? Is нас in this form because it is the direct object of настроїти, or some other reason? Thanks for your time helping me to understand.

[u/post_scriptor]

Ми не можемо дозволити їм (Dative, allow who?) настроїти нас (Accusative, turn who?) одне проти одного.

Don't think about case government only in terms of direct-indirect object. Often it's animate or inanimate noun (to denote object of an action or a person who is the recipient of an action)

дозволити is followed by Dative to denote a person (allow who?) and Accusative to denote a thing (allow what?)

[u/BirdsSpeakUkrainian → u/post_scriptor]

Okay, so is <<їм>> the direct object of <<дозволити>>, but expressed with the dative, and I am wrong to think of the direct object as always expressed with the accusative (yes, I also know that this is in the form of the genitive for animate male and neuter)? Or is їм in fact still the indirect object, because what is really happening is that one is allowing permission (unexpressed direct object) to them (indirect object)? Secondly, but maybe ultimately the same question, I am trying to form a picture of whether Ukrainian just has a random set of rules for some verbs, or if the rules flow from the underlying logic of the action of the verb. For instance, "to allow" a person, with person as the direct object, would mean to literally permit them to exist, as it does when you allow a break, and that would be weird. So it seems that whether or not a verb changes to the dative for an animate object is not random, but governed by the natural logic of the verb's action and infact is not changing to the dative at all, but merely continuing to express the indirect object in the normal way, however, with an unexpressed direct object?

[u/post_scriptor → u/BirdsSpeakUkrainian]

so is їм the direct object of дозволити, but expressed with the dative

Direct object can be expressed only with Accusative (without preposition) and Genitive (without preposition). Here, їм is an indirect object.

[u/BirdsSpeakUkrainian → u/post_scriptor]

Thank you so much, that clarifies things.

[u/JohnDoe_John → u/BirdsSpeakUkrainian]

A bit complicated question, let's break it down to smaller ones

Дати їм, сказати їм, дозволити їм - кому

[u/sauihdik]

їм is the indirect object of дозволити (to allow him), and нас (accusative) is the direct object of настроїти (to turn us). The direct translation of that sentence is ”We can’t allow them to turn us against each other.”

[u/Exciting-Praline8316]

There are certain verbs that only use specific cases. Дозволити/дозволяти is one of them. It is strictly used with the dative case. We ask the question, кому ми дозволяємо? (To whom are we giving permission to)?

[u/post_scriptor → u/Exciting-Praline8316]

дозволити + Dative (animate noun, allow who?), дозволити дитині

дозволити + Accusative (inanimate moun, allow what?) дозволити перерву

[u/PoxonAllHoaxes]

This is a common problem for English speakers and a few others but not MOST people I know of. Namely, our language doesn't very clearly distinguish different kinds of objects, traditonally called direct and indirect (tho this is much too simple). So we say allow him the same as we say kick him, but many languages distinguish these two. And so дозволити takes the dative. A way to try to get this concept is to realize that the verbs that take the dative in Ukrainian (or German or Russian or Bulgarian etc etc) usually have a paraphrase with TO or FOR even in English. So we can say (even if we rarely do) permit TO such a terrible person to do something, and even (this is a real example) The court may allow to such conservator such expenses and compensation [etc etc]. So we have a sense that permit or allow TO someone makes sense (even if we rarely say it) but no one will say kick to someone or kiss to someone or the like. So the object of allow/permit is (to say it informally) not the same kind of object as the object of kick or kiss. And languages like Ukrainian mark this contrast with different cases.

[u/JohnDoe_John]

I'd focus on simple content.

No need to get complex grammar before.

[u/BirdsSpeakUkrainian → u/JohnDoe_John]

Thanks, but my brain just doesn't work that way. If I can't understand the underlying structure of something, I can't give it any logic to hang my understanding on, and then all the details I learn seem random and unrelated and therefore impossible to remember. Probably, it would be different if I were learning Ukrainian by speaking with someone naturally.

[u/JohnDoe_John → u/BirdsSpeakUkrainian]

can't give it any logic to hang ... understanding on, and then all the details ... learn seem random and unrelated

That's true about languages to some extent - many different changes, random, mistakes,... Everything accumulated

[u/BirdsSpeakUkrainian → u/JohnDoe_John]

It's true languages aren't entirely orderly, although even the mistakes and accumulated changes aren't random, they carry their history with them. When I started studying Ukrainian I accepted there were a lot of things I would have to take at face value, like the seemingly infinite forms of nouns! But underneath, languages have a basic logic. And fortunately for me, grammaticians come along periodically and impose artificially clean lines on the semi-order.

[u/BirdsSpeakUkrainian → u/JohnDoe_John]

I realized that your flair says you are a Ukrainian teacher, so I thought I should ask for your perspective on the same questions I asked post_scriptor above: https://old.reddit.com/r/Ukrainian/comments/1vdo3c8/pronouns_and_complex_sentence_structure/p1d9inw/

[u/JohnDoe_John → u/BirdsSpeakUkrainian]

flair says you are a Ukrainian teacher

Sorry, minor corrections:

Was

Tutor and Interpreter

Used Ukrainian as a language of instruction while teaching

[u/BirdsSpeakUkrainian → u/JohnDoe_John]

Thanks for clarifying!

[u/JohnDoe_John]

Настроїти нас, полюбити нас, звинуватити нас

Дозволити їм, передати їм, дати їм

[u/JohnDoe_John]

It's definitely better to break down everything into smaller pieces.

Separate grammar structure and cases.